I actually found a strategy that i liked a lot, which was early roach / zergling (and static defense, of course) to muta (mid - late game changes are based on opponents units composition) You dont need a lot of roaches but i've won all the games which i used that strategy.. It isn't really effected much by the nerf because the muta harass comes fairly early. depending on your opponents unit composition (let's say he's terran and he gets quite a few marines to protect himself against harass) you tech to baneling / zergling and get hive, tech to broodlords, and you're usually going to end up ahead. Let's say he goes vikings (not saying this is a likely option... but an option nonetheless) tech to hydra and get double evo chamber and upgrade. if he gets a lot of tanks / thor, you just get hydra / roach composition, which even though isn't as strong anymore, it is still fairly strong mid game if you go muta because it forces the terran to get more anti-air, and usually keeps him in base which gives you map control. You drop him, using your creep from overlords, he lifts his factories, you get ahead in the food count and over run him. they aren't perfect strategies, im just throwing stuff out there. The mech counter is just kind of a theory, haven't really had time to work it out in an actual game. I would be totally welcome to having someone help me test some strategies. If anyone wants to add something, or tell me why this wouldnt work, it's perfectly fine. I'm open to anything.
On May 15 2010 01:52 ZooG wrote: possible HDH invitational spoiler + Show Spoiler +
check out WhiteRa v TheLittleOne in HDH ro4 for some (good) use of zerglings
You mean this one
Thats PvP
Game 2 is prolly what you meant:
But that was more interesting because he used tons of queens, notice that most lings died.
Yet, - Zerglings are so much weaker than scbw, its not even surprising everyone goes ranged as zerg - Colossus evaporate any ling army. - They have a mere 35 jp just like in scbw, but any other unit that is kept in sc2 has its dps improved. - Autosurround is all fun and stuff, but their dmg is nerfed. - Any player and their grandma can wall in and stop any harassment you try with lings. - AI makes units target lings before ultras. Ultras made lings better (and vice versa) cuz lings werent autotargeted and killed before they got even close in scbw (at least not like it is now). - Tanks seem to shoot more efficient.
Probaly means this one too:
And you really don't get it, bringing collosus vs ling into this. lol
The point is, zerglings can substitute for the ridiculous roach-hugging crowd early-mid game.
Spoiler alert: Koreans have been using zergling/queen rushes vs protoss (which is why queen is so slow off-creep) since day one
Looks like US/EU may now finally transcend into the zergling level of thinking and un-cling to the roaches
K... so his ling strat worked against a 2 gate push with a stargate. We were talking about ling usage to defend against 4 gate remember? And the 2nd replay, he would've lost in this new patch, he wouldn't have had enough roaches to defend whiteRa when they both attacked eachothers bases.
But that was more interesting because he used tons of queens, notice that most lings died.
Yet, - Zerglings are so much weaker than scbw, its not even surprising everyone goes ranged as zerg - Colossus evaporate any ling army. - They have a mere 35 jp just like in scbw, but any other unit that is kept in sc2 has its dps improved. - Autosurround is all fun and stuff, but their dmg is nerfed. - Any player and their grandma can wall in and stop any harassment you try with lings. - AI makes units target lings before ultras. Ultras made lings better (and vice versa) cuz lings werent autotargeted and killed before they got even close in scbw (at least not like it is now). - Tanks seem to shoot more efficient.
And you really don't get it, bringing collosus vs ling into this. lol
The point is, zerglings can substitute for the ridiculous roach-hugging crowd early-mid game.
Spoiler alert: Koreans have been using zergling/queen rushes vs protoss (which is why queen is so slow off-creep) since day one
Looks like US/EU may now finally transcend into the zergling level of thinking and un-cling to the roaches
K... so his ling strat worked against a 2 gate push with a stargate. We were talking about ling usage to defend against 4 gate remember? And the 2nd replay, he would've lost in this new patch, he wouldn't have had enough roaches to defend whiteRa when they both attacked eachothers bases.
premise: Roaches are the ONLY way to defend vs 1 base 4-gating protoss
Does anybody have problems starting up the new patch?
i get Runtime Error! Program: Starcraft II Beta\Support\Blizzarddownloader.exe Program has request Runtime to terminate in an usual way. Please contact application support.
On May 15 2010 03:44 Koltz wrote: premise: Roaches are the ONLY way to defend vs 1 base 4-gating protoss
here is the box: __ |_|
think outside of it
Lings fails because of Zealots+FF Blings fails because of FF.
So we either go Roach+Spine Crawlers or just Spine Crawlers.
Roaches can also fail for the same reason because they have a range of 3.
But with Roaches you have the time to dance in and out to buy the time needed for the FE benefits, Blings and Lings dies way to fast to fill that role.
It`s sad Terran stays the way they are right now. They got SO many harrass options right from the start reaper, banshee, vikings, hellion or they just bunker rush They got the strongest unit when it comes to price/effect marauder They dont need to expand, acutally they just need to bunker up get a good unit combo and not even toss unit combo can rival them (hello emp) ... oh and dont say "use feedback" if you can use feedback before he emps your opponent either sleeps or is completly retarded Oh and of course tanks are better than in sc1 so yeah you can expand rather save aswell and go mass bcs or whatever
The only way you can beat a T at your skill lv is to proxy him, do a void raid rush and hope he is not prepared for it and so on you just cant play standart get 100+ supply aganist terra und hope to win if he got emp
They already got a strong unit mix so nerf emp that it only takes away the energy of HT and so on and not the shields I mean come on take away storm and cut the Hp of all troops, nice one why don`t ghosts directly shoot nuclear missles at us
To end this just go through the USEFULL units terra can play and rely on and then do the same for the other races so lets see Marines, Reaper, Marauder, Medivac, Thors, Ghost, Tanks, Banshee, Bcs, Vikings, Hellion,Raven now do the same for Toss and Zerg if you put them together you mb get as much as T ......
Now if only they reduced ultralisks collision size. I had 2 ultralisk blocking each other and glitching on a ramp and I have no idea how they managed to do that as there were no other units of mine involved.
As of now ultralisks are not a viable part of your army. Hopefully they are taking their time because something awsome is coming.
On May 15 2010 03:44 Koltz wrote: premise: Roaches are the ONLY way to defend vs 1 base 4-gating protoss
here is the box: __ |_|
think outside of it
Lings fails because of Zealots+FF Blings fails because of FF.
So we either go Roach+Spine Crawlers or just Spine Crawlers.
If we're defending vs a 4-gate your generally turtling and avoiding an unfavorable position where FF would devastate. I think ling/crawler/queen with a handful of roach support with a FE would suffice. I'm looking at the sentry damage nerf which I think is pretty huge making speedlings much more viable. PS: TLO Ling's were bang on :D
Terran had lots of harassment opportunity in BW as well. (While being the most turtle-y race)
Zerg is 'weak' (i cringe when i call it weak) in the early game because people CHOOSE to play in such a way. They expand at 15-18 and get 50 drones. In BW, zergs did indeed fast expand as well, but they limited their drone numbers (like 15 drones per exp max) to account for the FE. That's how they dealt with the 'early game weakness' People just havent figured out how to deal with it as well as they did in BW yet.
I play random, so my bias is limited. But i feel that cutting down on drone numbers and getting more speedlings (allow for 3rd expo) is much more beneficial than macroing to 50 drones and engaging with hydra/roach.
ummmm what? At first I thought, this guy obviously doesn't play zerg. Then I see that you are random and now I just assume you don't understand zerg macro.
No offense, but no high level zerg player drones in that manner. It is suicide. Basically you stop at around the number of drones that would saturate 1 base and then have to pump units because of the inevitable terran or protoss timing one-base timing push. The one-base push is so popular right now, you barely have to scout to know it is coming.
It's all situational. People all around are mocking me for what I said, but of course you wouldn't go for an early third vs a one-basing player. Lol.
I was assuming that people were having trouble with a fast-expoing player, because one-base plays are much easier to deal with at the moment...
And yes, you will almost ALWAYS see zerg has more harvesters than the other race. Watch Idra/Artosis when they play how they want to play (ie. no cheese to throw them off)
Zerglings ARE underestimated. They are so cheap and let you get the lair out so quickly, they are more effective vs bio (no medics and easy switch into baneling) and vs protoss, with spine crawler backup (a la broodwar) they are quite effective. You have to be careful of potential force field placement though
I never used roaches early game unless I was up against something ridiculous like a 4-gate proxy zealot all-in. But i did use them late game when they get significantly better with their burrow mechanic. The problem is, people who relied too heavily on roaches early game (keyword: TOO heavily) are getting punished.
As for late-late game (200/200 battles) roaches are definitely weaker. I think we just have to find other ways of playing rather than mass roaching at max. Hopefully, soon they'll nerf terran too, so that we can't all be qxc and get 15 barrax and mmmaurder with nothing exciting (i really hate this playstyle)
people need to stop interpreting speedling as mass speedling with no economy. or stop assuming that you need to inflict some sort of damage with said speedlings...
Huh? On what league are you playing where people have issues with fast expanding opponents? Theres a reason why pretty much every top gamer goes for push / harrass > expand, and not the other way around.
Reason? You go ahead and do a fast expansion, and watch Zerg pump drones from 2 hatcheries with 2 Queens, with fast tech and easy access to a third, without any real interruption. You roll out and you'll meet a force much superior to yours that most likely also has the right unit mix to counter yours too.
The only relatively fast expansion that is strong against Zerg is the 10gate or double 10 gate where you pressure with Zealots and follow up with an expansion. Why? You don't allow Zerg to power drones and force them to make Zerglings. Or the Hellion > Expansion. But those I would also count as push and harrass > expand.
Who still goes Bio early game against Zerg? It's true that Zerglings are strong against bio in the early game, but they absolutely suck against Mech and once Terran gets stim, the Zerglings just melt.
Only a few times I've seen a FE that actually worked against Zerg, and even then just barely / with some follow up gimmick.
So yes, your revolutionary speedling into 3rd build works against FE, but then again, it isn't that hard to play against FE in the first place lol.
On May 15 2010 03:44 Koltz wrote: premise: Roaches are the ONLY way to defend vs 1 base 4-gating protoss
here is the box: __ |_|
think outside of it
Lings fails because of Zealots+FF Blings fails because of FF.
So we either go Roach+Spine Crawlers or just Spine Crawlers.
If we're defending vs a 4-gate your generally turtling and avoiding an unfavorable position where FF would devastate. I think ling/crawler/queen with a handful of roach support with a FE would suffice. I'm looking at the sentry damage nerf which I think is pretty huge making speedlings much more viable. PS: TLO Ling's were bang on :D
The whole point of his statement was to find a way to stop 4-gate without Roaches and switching the handful of Roaches you, me and many Z uses for more Lings or Spine Crawlers seems quite hard to pull off.
I haven't had the chance to play more than 7-8 games since the patch but I doubt I will change much in my gameplans exept to try and cut down on the meatshield as much as possible.
This change messes up my ZvZ, where I rely on early roaches to block my ramp from any zergling aggression. My other two match-ups were already messed up, and this hardly helps. I'm stumped, so I hope someone figures out this game soon, so I wont have to lose my way down into gold or silver before I can pick up some wins.
On May 15 2010 04:54 Scope wrote: This change messes up my ZvZ, where I rely on early roaches to block my ramp from any zergling aggression. My other two match-ups were already messed up, and this hardly helps. I'm stumped, so I hope someone figures out this game soon, so I wont have to lose my way down into gold or silver before I can pick up some wins.
Can't you even try figuring out the game yourself? Try experimenting builds that relies less on roaches.
Is it possible to delay a 4 gate push by sending many lings to outside the protoss base before the push happens
when he pushes out you can just retreat a little bit, divide the lings into 2 groups and threaten (Not engage) multiple attacks whilst he walks towards your base, hopefully causing the protoss to waste a few forcefields and at least delaying the timing.
When he arrives at your base, 30 seconds later you should have that much more 1: knowledge of unit compisition. 2: 30 seconds more benefit off the expansion 3: 30 seconds more production time using said benefit
And if you keep a large number of the delay Zerglings alive you can
4. Sandwich his army between your new home army/spine crawlers and the army you've obtained at home
for a 4 gate push early game I was thinking I might try getting more queens, spine crawlers and speedlings skipping roach all together while I tech up to lair to either transition to mutas or hydras.
but yeah.. gonna have to get creative on this one because even with 1 supply roach your timing had to be right to make sure u were getting enough roaches to hold it off.
zerglings/speedlings are pretty good early game but from mid game on they are pretty much only useful for harass between attacks or to surround the enemy while u attack them with the main army. even with excellent micro zerglings die so fast, and that takes up constant larva that you need for the real units including drones.
EPT
