On May 15 2010 01:52 ZooG wrote: possible HDH invitational spoiler + Show Spoiler +
check out WhiteRa v TheLittleOne in HDH ro4 for some (good) use of zerglings
Yeah, this is what I was talking about in my previous post.
See, the problem is the game is still in its infancy and everyone is trying to find the "crutch" unit to heavily rely on for each race. No one really knows the power of zerglings yet because Roaches overshadowed them for so long. Zerglings are incredibly effective. I think I will see more zergling play from zerg players now that roaches are alittle more supply heavy to mass.
On May 15 2010 01:52 ZooG wrote: possible HDH invitational spoiler + Show Spoiler +
check out WhiteRa v TheLittleOne in HDH ro4 for some (good) use of zerglings
You mean this one
Thats PvP
Game 2 is prolly what you meant:
But that was more interesting because he used tons of queens, notice that most lings died.
Yet, - Zerglings are so much weaker than scbw, its not even surprising everyone goes ranged as zerg - Colossus evaporate any ling army. - They have a mere 35 jp just like in scbw, but any other unit that is kept in sc2 has its dps improved. - Autosurround is all fun and stuff, but their dmg is nerfed. - Any player and their grandma can wall in and stop any harassment you try with lings. - AI makes units target lings before ultras. Ultras made lings better (and vice versa) cuz lings werent autotargeted and killed before they got even close in scbw (at least not like it is now). - Tanks seem to shoot more efficient.
On May 15 2010 01:52 TyrantGuardian wrote: I love Zerg as a race but I get the feeling I really dislike their playstyle in this Beta. Everything just feels ridiculously vulnerable to everything unless you have way more units than the opponent. There's no Zerg unit you can get that just makes you go "phew, finally I'm safe in general" (think siege tanks on LT to guard your natural), and I think that's the biggest problem I have with the race currently.
Are you sure you're playing with the right race then? Because Zerg has always been like this, even in BW. Zerg units ARE more vulnerable and they win because of numbers, thats what Zerg is. Even back in BW, If you leave your units alone for awhile they could be slaughtered if you don't come back in time to take care of them. They are fragile, but they are many, though. If you want a safe feeling then Terran is the race your talking avout. Bunkers, siege tanks... T is a defensive race for excellence, ever since BW. Zerg play is way less safe, it's more about mobility, and numbers, not about being safe.
For the non zergs who say this isn't a big deal I just played a few games and decided to mix in some roaches. . . It makes a HUGE difference. And in ALL stages of the game, not just late. This is a major major nerf especially vs protoss. Sigh, I guess I have to figure out a way to win with lings tanking vs toss. Now zerg's only tank is 35 hp.
But that was more interesting because he used tons of queens, notice that most lings died.
Yet, - Zerglings are so much weaker than scbw, its not even surprising everyone goes ranged as zerg - Colossus evaporate any ling army. - They have a mere 35 jp just like in scbw, but any other unit that is kept in sc2 has its dps improved. - Autosurround is all fun and stuff, but their dmg is nerfed. - Any player and their grandma can wall in and stop any harassment you try with lings. - AI makes units target lings before ultras. Ultras made lings better (and vice versa) cuz lings werent autotargeted and killed before they got even close in scbw (at least not like it is now). - Tanks seem to shoot more efficient.
Probaly means this one too:
And you really don't get it, bringing collosus vs ling into this. lol
The point is, zerglings can substitute for the ridiculous roach-hugging crowd early-mid game.
Spoiler alert: Koreans have been using zergling/queen rushes vs protoss (which is why queen is so slow off-creep) since day one
Looks like US/EU may now finally transcend into the zergling level of thinking and un-cling to the roaches
On May 15 2010 01:52 TyrantGuardian wrote: I just can't get over this Roach change, I've lost pretty much every single game where I've tried to FE now because I just can't get enough Roaches out in time. I've tried going onebase and just get completely demolished. Perhaps I should try replacing Roaches with early Banelings or something? Could work vs T but man, I get the feeling P will just roll me over with force field usage protecting the Zealots.
Either way, when I go Roaches, even off one-base and I face an early push, I just can't have enough units out in time. I really wish Blizzard added at least one more useful unit to Z because right now, I just feel like I'm permanently on the defensive with extremely limited options until I reach lategame and just steamroll the opponent with mass reinforcements. I don't even know at this point, I love Zerg as a race but I get the feeling I really dislike their playstyle in this Beta. Everything just feels ridiculously vulnerable to everything unless you have way more units than the opponent. There's no Zerg unit you can get that just makes you go "phew, finally I'm safe in general" (think siege tanks on LT to guard your natural), and I think that's the biggest problem I have with the race currently.
hmm, I dont know, I always liked to play offensive zerg in BW, so i'm kinda against having a unit specifically designed for defense, for example, I rarely used lurkers unless there was some really vulnerable expansion that I had to defend, btw, there was an sc2 lurker in the alpha I think, and Ive always wondered whether they would put it in later in the beta or something.
I dont like this patch. Longer forge time mean that It will be less effective VS early cheese, and the protoss are already weak to that.
And I agree with all the other one that say 2 supply roach is not zerg and that a stats nerf would have been better, although I am still not convinced they needed a nerf that bad, as the only unit that I feel is OP right now is the marauder.
I don't see how Blizzard can justify nerfing the backbone of zerg t1 and expect one of the highest tech tier units to compensate for this. When's the last time you saw an ultralisk appearance in a pro-level game? Rare, I know less than Broodlords but this only happens when Zerg has complete map control and 3-4 bases. Sighh I'm at a loss.
On May 14 2010 05:05 stroggos wrote: give ultras leap(like the barbarian in diablo 2) "HEEEEEEEEEE"
THIS PLEASE!!
really give this at least 3 seconds of time, people want to use the Ultra, i mean its right in the name "Ultra" and everyone doesn't like how its working out...now IMAGINE WITH MEEEEeee.........
lets say you give Ultras leap, say 25 energy or something (not sure on the ability) your going up against a toss base with a maxxed army with ultra/ling and whatever else you prefer.
You see the FF go up and know your not getting through as your zerglings bunch up in front leaving your ultras stuck and free to get shot to pieces. All of a sudden, WOoooooooooOOOP (barbarian cry) your ultras are now past the FF wreaking havoc. Hell you could use it as a cliff jumping ability for a crazy flank. It would even help a LOT against marauders as when they are stimmed or running back, all of a sudden you hear the mighty roar of a god-damned mother f'ing ultralisk group of 8 jumping back getting in their face, or behind, effectively flanking. This probably needs to be thought out more, or I might just be a bit on the mental side, and this would screw a lot up. That is my two cents though, and I think it might just maybe be worth a shot...I mean come on...leaping ultras, how the hell do you say no? I'll tell you how, by saying yes.
I mean, they could be instantly in the fight with this, or at least be given that critical fighting chance from 0.23% to 23%
This is a terrible idea. It's times like this that I wish blizzard wouldn't listen to its fans. Not also would giving ults energy make them suck even more thanks to feedback, but a leaping ults would just look silly. Ults are giant godzilla like monsters with giant turtle like shells. How on earth are they going to leap over things? It would just make the game feel too hokey.
Fixing ults is easy. All you need to do is nurf force field, and nurf marauders. There done! Ults are now fixed! Yes immortals will still own them but that's fine. If toss wants to invest that much in immortals sacrificing their unit mixture then they should own ults.
*Incoming terran and toss rage* It's funny every time another race is nurf it's completely legitimate and over due, but when it's your race it's completely uncalled for and breaks the game. If roachs need a nurf, then force fields and marauders also need a nurf. Plain and simple.
On May 15 2010 01:52 ZooG wrote: possible HDH invitational spoiler + Show Spoiler +
check out WhiteRa v TheLittleOne in HDH ro4 for some (good) use of zerglings
Yeah, this is what I was talking about in my previous post.
See, the problem is the game is still in its infancy and everyone is trying to find the "crutch" unit to heavily rely on for each race. No one really knows the power of zerglings yet because Roaches overshadowed them for so long. Zerglings are incredibly effective. I think I will see more zergling play from zerg players now that roaches are alittle more supply heavy to mass.
i believe he won it cus of the queens vs void rays. the voids didnt do much. dont think zerglings played that integral of a roal. he won the other game on kulas due to zergling harass on this mining line. that was just a mistake on white-ras part on destroying the destructible rocks in his base. otherwise he woudlve won most likely. and i THINK that was b4 roach supply nerf and TLO barely pulled out a win. with roach supply 2 he wouldve been rolled.
On May 14 2010 16:53 guitarizt wrote: Yeah is it even posssible to hold off a 4-5 gate mid game push anymore like tasteless did to day without suiciding yourself by building too many spine crawlers?
yes it is, ur macro is untouched for at this point, it only becomes a serous problem in late game when you need to out produce the toss to get surround but u cant b/c lack of units
On May 14 2010 16:53 guitarizt wrote: Yeah is it even posssible to hold off a 4-5 gate mid game push anymore like tasteless did to day without suiciding yourself by building too many spine crawlers?
yes it is, ur macro is untouched for at this point, it only becomes a serous problem in late game when you need to out produce the toss to get surround but u cant b/c lack of units
Your macro is not "untouched" when the unit you're building a lot of requires you to build twice as many overlords.
Those aren't free you know.
Zerg does actually have a finite amount of larvae at any one given time.
On May 14 2010 16:53 guitarizt wrote: Yeah is it even posssible to hold off a 4-5 gate mid game push anymore like tasteless did to day without suiciding yourself by building too many spine crawlers?
yes it is, ur macro is untouched for at this point, it only becomes a serous problem in late game when you need to out produce the toss to get surround but u cant b/c lack of units
Haven't played much in this patch but that's a load of crap. I'm not sure how extreme it is or anything but your macro is definitely affected early mid AND late game if you want roaches. You have less larva and less minerals to try and achieve the same amount of roaches you had before this patch.
I think the nerf on roaches has decreased their viability as a unit choice. They are now a very weak unit when engaging if both armies are at full supply. A zerg army of 200 is now even weaker as it had problems fighting against Terran and Protoss with similar supply. I understand that roaches were being overused and blizzard needed to tweek the roaches to encourage unit diversity. For that reason I think Roaches should either have their spawn time increased or have a supply count of 1.5. I know that sounds retarded to have a fractional supply count. However each zergling is only 0.5 supply. Either way something needs to be done to the roaches because this supply adjustment isn't working.
But that was more interesting because he used tons of queens, notice that most lings died.
Yet, - Zerglings are so much weaker than scbw, its not even surprising everyone goes ranged as zerg - Colossus evaporate any ling army. - They have a mere 35 jp just like in scbw, but any other unit that is kept in sc2 has its dps improved. - Autosurround is all fun and stuff, but their dmg is nerfed. - Any player and their grandma can wall in and stop any harassment you try with lings. - AI makes units target lings before ultras. Ultras made lings better (and vice versa) cuz lings werent autotargeted and killed before they got even close in scbw (at least not like it is now). - Tanks seem to shoot more efficient.
And you really don't get it, bringing collosus vs ling into this. lol
The point is, zerglings can substitute for the ridiculous roach-hugging crowd early-mid game.
Spoiler alert: Koreans have been using zergling/queen rushes vs protoss (which is why queen is so slow off-creep) since day one
Looks like US/EU may now finally transcend into the zergling level of thinking and un-cling to the roaches
Dude, nobody's claiming that lings are useless. We all agree that they can do good things. We are simply saying that they are not nearly as good as they were in SCBW, whereas units in the opposing lineups are better. This results in a situation where it is more difficult (but not impossible) to make lings useful, and even in situations where they are good, they are not as good as they should be.
The reason for the "roach clinging" as you put it is fairly simple. The MVP of Zerg right now is the Hydra. It has good range, and fantastic dps for the cost, but needs a meatshield. Roaches are, to put it simply, a better meatshield than Zerglings, and on top of that they bring more effective dps to the table.
On May 15 2010 01:53 Turbo.Tactics wrote: Blizzard has literally no picture of what they want Zerg to be like or act in the game. That is why they keep adjusting the units in weird directions and that is why we still have to see an overlord when we click on Zergbuildings (which bothers me since day 1 and nobody seems to care).
You can definitely tell there's some truth in what you're saying. Blizzard seems really clueless about the direction they want to take Zerg.
EPT
