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On May 15 2010 01:01 Lollersauce wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2010 00:55 ooni wrote:
But conversely, Terran has given opportunity to harass, harass and harass.
Which is horseshit. Terran has much better options to turtle already, so why do they have so many options when it comes to harassing? On the other hand, Zerg is now supposed to play defensively early game while they are the only race that can't EZ-mode wall-in. There's really something that doesn't make sense with this design philosophy.
Terran had lots of harassment opportunity in BW as well. (While being the most turtle-y race)
Zerg is 'weak' (i cringe when i call it weak) in the early game because people CHOOSE to play in such a way. They expand at 15-18 and get 50 drones.
In BW, zergs did indeed fast expand as well, but they limited their drone numbers (like 15 drones per exp max) to account for the FE. That's how they dealt with the 'early game weakness'
People just havent figured out how to deal with it as well as they did in BW yet.
I play random, so my bias is limited. But i feel that cutting down on drone numbers and getting more speedlings (allow for 3rd expo) is much more beneficial than macroing to 50 drones and engaging with hydra/roach.
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On May 15 2010 01:07 Koltz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2010 01:01 Lollersauce wrote:On May 15 2010 00:55 ooni wrote:
But conversely, Terran has given opportunity to harass, harass and harass.
Which is horseshit. Terran has much better options to turtle already, so why do they have so many options when it comes to harassing? On the other hand, Zerg is now supposed to play defensively early game while they are the only race that can't EZ-mode wall-in. There's really something that doesn't make sense with this design philosophy. Terran had lots of harassment opportunity in BW as well. (While being the most turtle-y race) Zerg is 'weak' (i cringe when i call it weak) in the early game because people CHOOSE to play in such a way. They expand at 15-18 and get 50 drones. In BW, zergs did indeed fast expand as well, but they limited their drone numbers (like 15 drones per exp max) to account for the FE. That's how they dealt with the 'early game weakness' People just havent figured out how to deal with it as well as they did in BW yet. I play random, so my bias is limited. But i feel that cutting down on drone numbers and getting more speedlings is much more beneficial than macroing to 50 drones and engaging with hydra/roach.
Because in BW zerglings could actually deal damage
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On May 15 2010 01:09 fuzzehbunneh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2010 01:07 Koltz wrote:On May 15 2010 01:01 Lollersauce wrote:On May 15 2010 00:55 ooni wrote:
But conversely, Terran has given opportunity to harass, harass and harass.
Which is horseshit. Terran has much better options to turtle already, so why do they have so many options when it comes to harassing? On the other hand, Zerg is now supposed to play defensively early game while they are the only race that can't EZ-mode wall-in. There's really something that doesn't make sense with this design philosophy. Terran had lots of harassment opportunity in BW as well. (While being the most turtle-y race) Zerg is 'weak' (i cringe when i call it weak) in the early game because people CHOOSE to play in such a way. They expand at 15-18 and get 50 drones. In BW, zergs did indeed fast expand as well, but they limited their drone numbers (like 15 drones per exp max) to account for the FE. That's how they dealt with the 'early game weakness' People just havent figured out how to deal with it as well as they did in BW yet. I play random, so my bias is limited. But i feel that cutting down on drone numbers and getting more speedlings is much more beneficial than macroing to 50 drones and engaging with hydra/roach. Because in BW zerglings could actually deal damage
Zerglings are soo heavily underestimated right now 
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I play random, so my bias is limited. But i feel that cutting down on drone numbers and getting more speedlings (allow for 3rd expo) is much more beneficial than macroing to 50 drones and engaging with hydra/roach.
Watch some reps from some tournaments. Zerg only powers as much as they can before a timing attack and after they win that and are safe they are free to power again. No one is just straight powering to 50 drones if they're being pressured which is why terran has to harass and toss likes the mid game push.
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On May 15 2010 01:11 Koltz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2010 01:09 fuzzehbunneh wrote:On May 15 2010 01:07 Koltz wrote:On May 15 2010 01:01 Lollersauce wrote:On May 15 2010 00:55 ooni wrote:
But conversely, Terran has given opportunity to harass, harass and harass.
Which is horseshit. Terran has much better options to turtle already, so why do they have so many options when it comes to harassing? On the other hand, Zerg is now supposed to play defensively early game while they are the only race that can't EZ-mode wall-in. There's really something that doesn't make sense with this design philosophy. Terran had lots of harassment opportunity in BW as well. (While being the most turtle-y race) Zerg is 'weak' (i cringe when i call it weak) in the early game because people CHOOSE to play in such a way. They expand at 15-18 and get 50 drones. In BW, zergs did indeed fast expand as well, but they limited their drone numbers (like 15 drones per exp max) to account for the FE. That's how they dealt with the 'early game weakness' People just havent figured out how to deal with it as well as they did in BW yet. I play random, so my bias is limited. But i feel that cutting down on drone numbers and getting more speedlings is much more beneficial than macroing to 50 drones and engaging with hydra/roach. Because in BW zerglings could actually deal damage Zerglings are soo heavily underestimated right now
what ...as fodder?
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Dunno but Z has somehow taken the role of the P in a TvP MU in Broodwar.
While your 200/200 is now somewhat weaker you can replenish it 3 times faster than any other race. The "swarmy" feel is still there. You can send waves of waves of units while T and P have to take care of every unit they have because reproducing takes much longer
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On May 15 2010 01:13 fuzzehbunneh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2010 01:11 Koltz wrote:On May 15 2010 01:09 fuzzehbunneh wrote:On May 15 2010 01:07 Koltz wrote:On May 15 2010 01:01 Lollersauce wrote:On May 15 2010 00:55 ooni wrote:
But conversely, Terran has given opportunity to harass, harass and harass.
Which is horseshit. Terran has much better options to turtle already, so why do they have so many options when it comes to harassing? On the other hand, Zerg is now supposed to play defensively early game while they are the only race that can't EZ-mode wall-in. There's really something that doesn't make sense with this design philosophy. Terran had lots of harassment opportunity in BW as well. (While being the most turtle-y race) Zerg is 'weak' (i cringe when i call it weak) in the early game because people CHOOSE to play in such a way. They expand at 15-18 and get 50 drones. In BW, zergs did indeed fast expand as well, but they limited their drone numbers (like 15 drones per exp max) to account for the FE. That's how they dealt with the 'early game weakness' People just havent figured out how to deal with it as well as they did in BW yet. I play random, so my bias is limited. But i feel that cutting down on drone numbers and getting more speedlings is much more beneficial than macroing to 50 drones and engaging with hydra/roach. Because in BW zerglings could actually deal damage Zerglings are soo heavily underestimated right now what ...as fodder?
i loled right here. lets all boycott the usage of roaches until they change it back =P
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Terran had lots of harassment opportunity in BW as well. (While being the most turtle-y race)
Zerg is 'weak' (i cringe when i call it weak) in the early game because people CHOOSE to play in such a way. They expand at 15-18 and get 50 drones.
In BW, zergs did indeed fast expand as well, but they limited their drone numbers (like 15 drones per exp max) to account for the FE. That's how they dealt with the 'early game weakness'
People just havent figured out how to deal with it as well as they did in BW yet.
I play random, so my bias is limited. But i feel that cutting down on drone numbers and getting more speedlings (allow for 3rd expo) is much more beneficial than macroing to 50 drones and engaging with hydra/roach.
ummmm what? At first I thought, this guy obviously doesn't play zerg. Then I see that you are random and now I just assume you don't understand zerg macro.
No offense, but no high level zerg player drones in that manner. It is suicide. Basically you stop at around the number of drones that would saturate 1 base and then have to pump units because of the inevitable terran or protoss timing one-base timing push. The one-base push is so popular right now, you barely have to scout to know it is coming.
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Hopefully the ultralisk change is to move them to T2 so they will actually be used, with the cleave upg at T3...
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On May 15 2010 01:16 Toolshed wrote:
Dunno but Z has somehow taken the role of the P in a TvP MU in Broodwar.
While your 200/200 is now somewhat weaker you can replenish it 3 times faster than any other race. The "swarmy" feel is still there. You can send waves of waves of units while T and P have to take care of every unit they have because reproducing takes much longer
If your opponent's at 200/200 your "swarms" won't be able to attack their army directly if you've gone roach heavy... and lets face it it's hard not to go roach heavy against toss. The only other tank unit is ultra, and it takes a lot of extra time and resources to make them viable.
Like many other people I don't mind the roach nerf but I'd like zerg to have some kind of appropriate compensation. It just feels like overkill. Look at the zerg changes in the last 2 patches.
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I'm afraid what Blizzard will do with Ultras and the new abilities for Overseers and Infestors.
The way things have been going, they will probably nerf all other units and call it an "Ultra buff". The infestor will get consume but you're forced to use it every 30 seconds, and you won't get any mana from it. The overseer ability will be a surrender button.
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On May 15 2010 01:11 Koltz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2010 01:09 fuzzehbunneh wrote:On May 15 2010 01:07 Koltz wrote:On May 15 2010 01:01 Lollersauce wrote:On May 15 2010 00:55 ooni wrote:
But conversely, Terran has given opportunity to harass, harass and harass.
Which is horseshit. Terran has much better options to turtle already, so why do they have so many options when it comes to harassing? On the other hand, Zerg is now supposed to play defensively early game while they are the only race that can't EZ-mode wall-in. There's really something that doesn't make sense with this design philosophy. Terran had lots of harassment opportunity in BW as well. (While being the most turtle-y race) Zerg is 'weak' (i cringe when i call it weak) in the early game because people CHOOSE to play in such a way. They expand at 15-18 and get 50 drones. In BW, zergs did indeed fast expand as well, but they limited their drone numbers (like 15 drones per exp max) to account for the FE. That's how they dealt with the 'early game weakness' People just havent figured out how to deal with it as well as they did in BW yet. I play random, so my bias is limited. But i feel that cutting down on drone numbers and getting more speedlings is much more beneficial than macroing to 50 drones and engaging with hydra/roach. Because in BW zerglings could actually deal damage Zerglings are soo heavily underestimated right now
Hardly. Any good Protoss / Terran will absolutely demolish a Zerg player who goes mass speedling into a 3rd expansion, that doesen't even sound viable against anyone decent.
If you go fast 3rd your tech is bound to be behind, your economy is worse because you've been pumping speedlings that are good very early in the game but later on get countered by pretty much everything.
I'd like to see what happens when you go do your mass speedling and suddenly void rays, banshees or even vikings appear. Also a fast 3rd gives a very nice opening for a push.
Or when Protoss rolls with Zealot Sentry army, or Colossus. Or when Terran rolls out with Hellions with upgrade, or MM with stim.
I'd see this viable against a fast expanding player though, but then again you would be pumping mass drones so it's basically the same thing, unless you try to speedling him.
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On May 15 2010 01:11 Koltz wrote:Zerglings are soo heavily underestimated right now
Lolololol.
I've been avoiding roaches as much as I could even before this change because I don't like their slowness, so of course I've been using zerglings a lot more. And really no, they're not "underestimated". Both T and P can wall-in very easily, and speedlings get rolled by anywhere above 2 hellions, and are just terrible once P can get more than a couple zealots, or can forcefield.
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On May 15 2010 01:24 NonFactor wrote:Hardly. Any good Protoss / Terran will absolutely demolish a Zerg player who goes mass speedling into a 3rd expansion, that doesen't even sound viable against anyone decent. Didn't thelittleone beat whitera with mass speedling? Granted, it was pretty close, and TLO hid an expansion (that was scouted a little late).
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On May 15 2010 01:11 Koltz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2010 01:09 fuzzehbunneh wrote:On May 15 2010 01:07 Koltz wrote:On May 15 2010 01:01 Lollersauce wrote:On May 15 2010 00:55 ooni wrote:
But conversely, Terran has given opportunity to harass, harass and harass.
Which is horseshit. Terran has much better options to turtle already, so why do they have so many options when it comes to harassing? On the other hand, Zerg is now supposed to play defensively early game while they are the only race that can't EZ-mode wall-in. There's really something that doesn't make sense with this design philosophy. Terran had lots of harassment opportunity in BW as well. (While being the most turtle-y race) Zerg is 'weak' (i cringe when i call it weak) in the early game because people CHOOSE to play in such a way. They expand at 15-18 and get 50 drones. In BW, zergs did indeed fast expand as well, but they limited their drone numbers (like 15 drones per exp max) to account for the FE. That's how they dealt with the 'early game weakness' People just havent figured out how to deal with it as well as they did in BW yet. I play random, so my bias is limited. But i feel that cutting down on drone numbers and getting more speedlings is much more beneficial than macroing to 50 drones and engaging with hydra/roach. Because in BW zerglings could actually deal damage Zerglings are soo heavily underestimated right now
No they're not. Don't get me wrong, they are somewhat useful earlygame, but the fact remains that they are significantly weaker than their SCBW counterpart, whereas their counters are stronger. Zealots absolutely destroy them, firebats have wheels and long range, and worst of all, they no longer deal good damage, even if they're able to survive a few seconds.
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+1 for dalailamer's post. Really good stuff there 
@Archer, I don't think Zerg's macro abilities are that lacking in tension! Creep tumors are essential in spreading creep around to give Zerg it's mobility, and transfusion doesn't look like it's been tinkered with enough by good players. Even last night on Day9's daily someone had an amazing transfusion + muta idea to try out.
On my way to my university's library this morning, I couldn't stop thinking about the Zerg endgame. In ZvT, I kept coming back to the thought that Zerg is suffering from a problem they solved in Brood War - ranged infantry. Zerg had darkswarm to positionally negate ranged infantry and create a "highway" of protection to close the distance to T's infantry blob. When I say SLush v. qxc last night on the MLG showmatch stream, I was like "oh my goodness! that's it!" I'm going start a thread once I've pulled together the replays/vids for it to be justified, but I think we're going to see a hive-tech positionally-strategic range-defensive spell with some sort of creep synergy on the infestor alongside the ultralisk changes. My goodness I can't wait to see what Blizz does with this game.
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On May 15 2010 01:18 shiftY803 wrote:Show nested quote +
Terran had lots of harassment opportunity in BW as well. (While being the most turtle-y race)
Zerg is 'weak' (i cringe when i call it weak) in the early game because people CHOOSE to play in such a way. They expand at 15-18 and get 50 drones.
In BW, zergs did indeed fast expand as well, but they limited their drone numbers (like 15 drones per exp max) to account for the FE. That's how they dealt with the 'early game weakness'
People just havent figured out how to deal with it as well as they did in BW yet.
I play random, so my bias is limited. But i feel that cutting down on drone numbers and getting more speedlings (allow for 3rd expo) is much more beneficial than macroing to 50 drones and engaging with hydra/roach.
ummmm what? At first I thought, this guy obviously doesn't play zerg. Then I see that you are random and now I just assume you don't understand zerg macro. No offense, but no high level zerg player drones in that manner. It is suicide. Basically you stop at around the number of drones that would saturate 1 base and then have to pump units because of the inevitable terran or protoss timing one-base timing push. The one-base push is so popular right now, you barely have to scout to know it is coming.
It's all situational. People all around are mocking me for what I said, but of course you wouldn't go for an early third vs a one-basing player. Lol.
I was assuming that people were having trouble with a fast-expoing player, because one-base plays are much easier to deal with at the moment...
And yes, you will almost ALWAYS see zerg has more harvesters than the other race. Watch Idra/Artosis when they play how they want to play (ie. no cheese to throw them off)
Zerglings ARE underestimated. They are so cheap and let you get the lair out so quickly, they are more effective vs bio (no medics and easy switch into baneling) and vs protoss, with spine crawler backup (a la broodwar) they are quite effective. You have to be careful of potential force field placement though
I never used roaches early game unless I was up against something ridiculous like a 4-gate proxy zealot all-in. But i did use them late game when they get significantly better with their burrow mechanic. The problem is, people who relied too heavily on roaches early game (keyword: TOO heavily) are getting punished.
As for late-late game (200/200 battles) roaches are definitely weaker. I think we just have to find other ways of playing rather than mass roaching at max. Hopefully, soon they'll nerf terran too, so that we can't all be qxc and get 15 barrax and mmmaurder with nothing exciting (i really hate this playstyle)
+ Show Spoiler +people need to stop interpreting speedling as mass speedling with no economy. or stop assuming that you need to inflict some sort of damage with said speedlings...
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possible HDH invitational spoiler
+ Show Spoiler +check out WhiteRa v TheLittleOne in HDH ro4 for some (good) use of zerglings
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I just can't get over this Roach change, I've lost pretty much every single game where I've tried to FE now because I just can't get enough Roaches out in time. I've tried going onebase and just get completely demolished. Perhaps I should try replacing Roaches with early Banelings or something? Could work vs T but man, I get the feeling P will just roll me over with force field usage protecting the Zealots.
Either way, when I go Roaches, even off one-base and I face an early push, I just can't have enough units out in time. I really wish Blizzard added at least one more useful unit to Z because right now, I just feel like I'm permanently on the defensive with extremely limited options until I reach lategame and just steamroll the opponent with mass reinforcements. I don't even know at this point, I love Zerg as a race but I get the feeling I really dislike their playstyle in this Beta. Everything just feels ridiculously vulnerable to everything unless you have way more units than the opponent. There's no Zerg unit you can get that just makes you go "phew, finally I'm safe in general" (think siege tanks on LT to guard your natural), and I think that's the biggest problem I have with the race currently.
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Blizzard has literally no picture of what they want Zerg to be like or act in the game. That is why they keep adjusting the units in weird directions and that is why we still have to see an overlord when we click on Zergbuildings (which bothers me since day 1 and nobody seems to care).
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EPT
