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On May 14 2010 23:03 Mic81 wrote:
Roaches 1 >2
It's a very good change. I knowy that many zergs will be complaining but seriously,
2 supply: 2 roches - 290 hp, 32 dmg to all counters 1 stalker 10 dmg+ 4 arm, 160 hp- 1 maruder 125 hp, 10 + 10 dmg - 1 zealot 150 hp . Zerg should realize that it was imba.
4 supply: 4 roches - 580 hp, 64 dmg to all counters 1 immortal 350 hp 20+30 dmg, siege tank 3 supply 150 hp,
6 supply: 6 roches 870 hp, 96 dmg conutres easyli 1 collosus, 1 ultralisk, 1 imor+stalker, 1 st +mar+mar
I know zerg- swarm but it is said weak in numbers, roache is not weak at all- 145 hp, 16 dmg, burow, regen, speed
So 1>2 is far better than lowering roache hp to 75 cos it would be countered by colosuss for exmp.
Ignoring speed, range and rate of fire will yield very accurate results.
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Is it me or has the zerg lost their ... zerging aspect?
I thought zerg was supposed to overcome opponents by throwing units at them en masse.
That's what I like about the race. But now they're more like a slimier version of the protoss.
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How about keeping the current 2 food cost and making Roaches cost 100minerals, instead of 75/25?
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lol! TL shame on you... i remember when you thought roaches needed this, from one supply to two, and now everyones complaining it should go back. make up your fucking minds.
User was warned for this post
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Lalalaland34503 Posts
On May 14 2010 23:14 OneFierceZealot wrote:
lol! TL shame on you... i remember when you thought roaches needed this, from one supply to two, and now everyones complaining it should go back. make up your fucking minds.
Pre-a-gazillion-nerf roaches, yes.
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On May 14 2010 23:03 Mic81 wrote:
Roaches 1 >2
It's a very good change. I knowy that many zergs will be complaining but seriously,
2 supply: 2 roches - 290 hp, 32 dmg to all counters 1 stalker 10 dmg+ 4 arm, 160 hp- 1 maruder 125 hp, 10 + 10 dmg - 1 zealot 150 hp . Zerg should realize that it was imba.
4 supply: 4 roches - 580 hp, 64 dmg to all counters 1 immortal 350 hp 20+30 dmg, siege tank 3 supply 150 hp,
6 supply: 6 roches 870 hp, 96 dmg conutres easyli 1 collosus, 1 ultralisk, 1 imor+stalker, 1 st +mar+mar
I know zerg- swarm but it is said weak in numbers, roache is not weak at all- 145 hp, 16 dmg, burow, regen, speed
So 1>2 is far better than lowering roache hp to 75 cos it would be countered by colosuss for exmp.
please take into considering the range.
also if blizz wants ultra to be the end game tank....then they should have implemented the changes to the ultra before nerfing the roach.
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Excuse me, but why is there no all button for this thread?
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Meh screw roaches. Something you can take from the recent Slush vs qxc games is that you don't need roaches to stop a normal hellion harrass. I believe his build on kulas ravine was a good one; however, his baneling micro was a little off. I believe he attack moved his banelings instead of just moving them. Otherwise, banelings should surround stationary units and other units should chase units that are kiting backwards.
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On May 14 2010 23:10 DwmC_Foefen wrote:
Is it me or has the zerg lost their ... zerging aspect?
I thought zerg was supposed to overcome opponents by throwing units at them en masse.
That's what I like about the race. But now they're more like a slimier version of the protoss.
They still have the lowest average supply cost by a pretty strong margin, so no. They're like slimey Terran maybe.
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On May 14 2010 23:14 OneFierceZealot wrote:
lol! TL shame on you... i remember when you thought roaches needed this, from one supply to two, and now everyones complaining it should go back. make up your fucking minds.
That was before roaches were nerfed to death. This is the worst patch yet from this beta, and I say this as a random player so it's not like I'm biased for zerg.
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On May 14 2010 23:12 okrane wrote:
How about keeping the current 2 food cost and making Roaches cost 100minerals, instead of 75/25?
oh god yes. that would be amazing.
which is why they wont do it.
the zerg just straight up wouldnt mine gas.
mass ling roach and queen for aa...
also, is it just me or are blizzards explanations for zerg nerfs just ridiculous...NP taken off infestors because of too many ULTRAS being infested...roaches being nerfed because theyre so pivotal in 200/200 fights
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Wow. Fuck. Roaches were one of my main units in my games. That's just bullshit. Making Roaches 2 supply. Even my protoss RL friend said he felt sorry for the zerg >_>. That shitty range Roaches has makes the Stalkers and Marauders kill them so easily with a little micro.
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Dear Blizzard
I'm playing your games almost exclusively since Starcraft1 back in 1997 with great joy and a bit obsession;) . I have to say, i love what you have done with Starcraft:Broodwar. It became by far the most competitive and balanced game there ever was and probably ever will be. Thus my feelings for Starcraft2 ranged between excitement and scepticism. But all my doubts disappeared when i first played the starcraft2 beta. I just loved the game from the first moment and have been playing it alot.
At the moment i am rated around 1900+ in platinum. I also played Broodwar and Warcraft3 (being a former german champion at wc3) at a very competitive level, so I’m really into esports for a long time and have seen alot of patches. But nearly no patch every irritated me that much as the latest one.
Normally i dont commentate or react on the whining about patchnotes, i simply think that players have to adapt to new strategies and counters except for relying on their convenience of their old ones. It is beta for gods sake!
But i think this patch points into a completly wrong direction. I will focus on the roach-nerf first and try to explain, why it is so fatal for zerg and the zerg gameplay.
First of all: Zergs are supposed to be „the swarm“. Their whole identity is about pure masses of small cheap units that can overwhelm enemy forces. Quantity over quality!
Now, what you have done in Sc2 is putting the Hydralisk tier2 (making him a very strong unit costing 2 Supply instead of 1 in BW) and replacing him in the early game with the roach.
But since the early stages of the beta, i was never sure, whats his intended role in the zerg army. It obviously was ridiculously powerful and made ZvZ a pain in the ***. Ist ability to tank due to his high armor and high HP/supply-relation made him the perfect tank for nearly any zergarmy in any stage of the game. Due to his upgrades it transitioned well from tier1 to tier2 to tier3 always being the backbone of the zerg army and still being it due tot he really bad ultralisk. It simply was (except for his lack of antiair) the complete package! The best tank, the best damage dealer and the best utility unit zerg had. His role was NEVER really defined.
Now after serveral HUGE and some understandable nerfes, his role in the zerg army is still completley in the shadow (or should i say fog of war?). You lowered its armor, which is completly reasonable due tot he fact that ZvZ was only a roachfest without any other opportunities. You nerfed the burrowupgrade, u nerfed its speed while burrowed, you nerfed his regeneration rate while being burrowed and made him not regenerate a bit faster than any other zerg unit while unburrowed. Some of these nerfes were reasonable some of them were not. Now, to use the roach properly and with all his gimmicks, the zerg player have to fully commit himself to the roachstrategy. It simply costs so much time and gas to research all his upgrades, that every other techtree is sooo far behind, that it really isnt useful anymore. I think, thats one of the main reasons why you see nearly no unitdiversity in a zergarmy the whole game long. You just cant support this many techtrees (plus the really really hard counters to mutas with the ridiculous thor and new phoenix).
Now you say that the roachnerf was made because of the lategame (Thanks alot for sharing your thoughts with us, i really appreciate this alot!). Now, first of all: i cant remeber ANY fight i’ve directly won with a 200 zerg army against a 200 protoss or terran army EVER. And thats ok, zerg arent supposed to win against the „balls“. As Zerg you try to make your opponent lose as much of his army as humanly/zergly possible and just reproduce your 200 army alot faster. I am completly fine with that. Another thing is: you mentioned that even with the right counters (i think of marauders and immortals?) toss and terran still would have lost the 200fight. Again: I have never won against a massmarauderterran or a massimmortaltoss with a heavyroach army. (P.S: the massmarauderarmy is extremly hard to counter for any zergplayer since zerg has no +dmg to armored and zerg has no real counter to mass upgraded marauders in the lategame).
Ok, now lets take a look at the zerglategame: As a Zerg you face a terranarmy consisting of some tanks, 2 Thors (since the demolish any mutaliskforce zerg has) and A LOT of marauders and medivacs (not that many marines sind they die to fast to banelings and there is no realy air-threat due to the muta vs thor situation). You need units that take the enemy fire so that zerglings and hydralisk can deal enough dmg to reduce the opponents forces and infestors can mindcontroll or fungalgrowth the terran army. There is simply no other zerg unit that can provide this and even roaches die incredible fast tot he mass marauders. Dont even think about using ultralisks since this highend unit is gets hardcountered by the marauder (a tier1 unit btw). Against Protoss you will face psistorm and colossi which both DESTROY zergling/hydra armies … and once again the ultralisk is pretty useless due to his vulnerabilty to stalker/immortals. I simply dont see the imbalance of roaches in the lategame since you have no other tanking units and no darkswarm ..^^
The key point is now the lategame but the early and midgame which is allready really really hard for zerg to come out undamaged. My assumption ist hat the roachnerf effects the zergs early and midgame WAY more and in a devastation way than it changes the lategame. Zealots in medium numbers (5-6) simply destroy zerglings it’s not even funny. So your only choice are roaches which are supposed to counter zealots pretty well i think. The fact is: they dont if they are not creep and not speedupgraded. Even dealing with a single 10gate zealotrush which is constantly chronoboosted and some additional probes, it is nearly impossible to hold any kind of expansion while ONLY producing lings out of your hatch. And even if you manage to hold it, the protoss player is in very convincing economic lead and can easily tech to the 4/5warpgatepush or if you opt to go roaches 3gate/robo. Now with 2supply roaches this allready hard earlygame got even worse. Especially in the early game every single supply counts, as larvae and money is really low. This nerf hurts the Zerg early- and midgame ALOT more than the lategame.
Terran has SO many ways to pressure you in the early stages of the game. And you have to play safe against every single one of them. The fast reaper/bunkerrush is still an issue that should be nerfed a bit. Hellions are also great harassing units (esp. with igniterupgrade), both completly owning lings without speedupgrade. Now you have 3 options to deal with this:
a) Making alot of spincecrawlers which got also nerfed (static defence)
b) Making alot of queens (more or less static defence)
c) Making roaches which were the only units you can move out of your base in a later stage of the game
As mentioned above the roachnerf costst you not only more minerals, but also delaying your tech, which is enormous since you are facing thordrops or banshees very soon. Even prepatch it was incredibly hard for zerg to play save against every single harassoption terran (and toss) has, on some maps like incineration zone and kulas ravine nearly impossible. Nerfing the roach doesnt help a bit there, but limiting our options to purely static defence.
So, how can we improve the current state the roach is in atm. First of all, you, blizzard should really think about its role in the zergarmy! Should it be a damage dealer? Should it be a tank? Or should it be an utiltyunit? Secound: IMMETIATLY give the roach back ist 1supply!!!!! A zerg tier1 unit should not cost 2 supply just due to the fact that it is zerg we are speaking of, not Protoss!
You have several options to define the role oft he roach as a zerg unit. Please be consequent and give him ist place an role in the zergarmy! If you want him as tank, increase his armor/hp? and lower his dmg! If you want him has DD lower his HP and give him more attackrange and make him better hit-n-run controllable! If you want him as utility unit, lower his dmg and/or his HP and buff his upgrades and make them cheaper! Just please define his role and consider that it is „the swarm“ we are talking about!
Another thing i want to mention is the lack of zergs „cool abilities“ as dustin browder would say. Protoss have earlygame sentries which is an amazing unit with alot of cool (perhaps overpowered) spells. Stalkers get blink, Zeals get charge and immortals simply have a kickass armor. Terrans have the reaper who can jump up and off cliffs, owning light armored melee units and buildings left and right, the marauder who has concussive shells which allow you to kite and enemy army to literally the end oft he world. Vikings can transform and banshees have a cool cloaking ability. Zerg units have not nearly that variaty or cool abilities that other races have, which also result in a often metioned „lack of diversity“ in the zerg army.
Zerglings got speed, which is a great ability but nothing really cool. Roaches got burrowed move and regen which both got nerfed pretty hard and costs an incredible amount of gas and time to research. Hydralisk have NOTHING at all (being the backbone of zergarmies) .. and the corrupter still got the most useless spell in the game. That all makes Zerg the macro-oriented roach-heavy and low-diversity race it currently is. Sad but true 
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If you want more massing, make more zerglings and banelings and broodlords.
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On May 14 2010 23:48 DalaiLameR wrote:Dear Blizzard I'm playing your games almost exclusively since Starcraft1 back in 1997 with great joy and a bit obsession;) . I have to say, i love what you have done with Starcraft:Broodwar. It became by far the most competitive and balanced game there ever was and probably ever will be. Thus my feelings for Starcraft2 ranged between excitement and scepticism. But all my doubts disappeared when i first played the starcraft2 beta. I just loved the game from the first moment and have been playing it alot. At the moment i am rated around 1900+ in platinum. I also played Broodwar and Warcraft3 (being a former german champion at wc3) at a very competitive level, so I’m really into esports for a long time and have seen alot of patches. But nearly no patch every irritated me that much as the latest one. Normally i dont commentate or react on the whining about patchnotes, i simply think that players have to adapt to new strategies and counters except for relying on their convenience of their old ones. It is beta for gods sake! But i think this patch points into a completly wrong direction. I will focus on the roach-nerf first and try to explain, why it is so fatal for zerg and the zerg gameplay. First of all: Zergs are supposed to be „the swarm“. Their whole identity is about pure masses of small cheap units that can overwhelm enemy forces. Quantity over quality! Now, what you have done in Sc2 is putting the Hydralisk tier2 (making him a very strong unit costing 2 Supply instead of 1 in BW) and replacing him in the early game with the roach. But since the early stages of the beta, i was never sure, whats his intended role in the zerg army. It obviously was ridiculously powerful and made ZvZ a pain in the ***. Ist ability to tank due to his high armor and high HP/supply-relation made him the perfect tank for nearly any zergarmy in any stage of the game. Due to his upgrades it transitioned well from tier1 to tier2 to tier3 always being the backbone of the zerg army and still being it due tot he really bad ultralisk. It simply was (except for his lack of antiair) the complete package! The best tank, the best damage dealer and the best utility unit zerg had. His role was NEVER really defined. Now after serveral HUGE and some understandable nerfes, his role in the zerg army is still completley in the shadow (or should i say fog of war?). You lowered its armor, which is completly reasonable due tot he fact that ZvZ was only a roachfest without any other opportunities. You nerfed the burrowupgrade, u nerfed its speed while burrowed, you nerfed his regeneration rate while being burrowed and made him not regenerate a bit faster than any other zerg unit while unburrowed. Some of these nerfes were reasonable some of them were not. Now, to use the roach properly and with all his gimmicks, the zerg player have to fully commit himself to the roachstrategy. It simply costs so much time and gas to research all his upgrades, that every other techtree is sooo far behind, that it really isnt useful anymore. I think, thats one of the main reasons why you see nearly no unitdiversity in a zergarmy the whole game long. You just cant support this many techtrees (plus the really really hard counters to mutas with the ridiculous thor and new phoenix). Now you say that the roachnerf was made because of the lategame (Thanks alot for sharing your thoughts with us, i really appreciate this alot!). Now, first of all: i cant remeber ANY fight i’ve directly won with a 200 zerg army against a 200 protoss or terran army EVER. And thats ok, zerg arent supposed to win against the „balls“. As Zerg you try to make your opponent lose as much of his army as humanly/zergly possible and just reproduce your 200 army alot faster. I am completly fine with that. Another thing is: you mentioned that even with the right counters (i think of marauders and immortals?) toss and terran still would have lost the 200fight. Again: I have never won against a massmarauderterran or a massimmortaltoss with a heavyroach army. (P.S: the massmarauderarmy is extremly hard to counter for any zergplayer since zerg has no +dmg to armored and zerg has no real counter to mass upgraded marauders in the lategame). Ok, now lets take a look at the zerglategame: As a Zerg you face a terranarmy consisting of some tanks, 2 Thors (since the demolish any mutaliskforce zerg has) and A LOT of marauders and medivacs (not that many marines sind they die to fast to banelings and there is no realy air-threat due to the muta vs thor situation). You need units that take the enemy fire so that zerglings and hydralisk can deal enough dmg to reduce the opponents forces and infestors can mindcontroll or fungalgrowth the terran army. There is simply no other zerg unit that can provide this and even roaches die incredible fast tot he mass marauders. Dont even think about using ultralisks since this highend unit is gets hardcountered by the marauder (a tier1 unit btw). Against Protoss you will face psistorm and colossi which both DESTROY zergling/hydra armies … and once again the ultralisk is pretty useless due to his vulnerabilty to stalker/immortals. I simply dont see the imbalance of roaches in the lategame since you have no other tanking units and no darkswarm ..^^ The key point is now the lategame but the early and midgame which is allready really really hard for zerg to come out undamaged. My assumption ist hat the roachnerf effects the zergs early and midgame WAY more and in a devastation way than it changes the lategame. Zealots in medium numbers (5-6) simply destroy zerglings it’s not even funny. So your only choice are roaches which are supposed to counter zealots pretty well i think. The fact is: they dont if they are not creep and not speedupgraded. Even dealing with a single 10gate zealotrush which is constantly chronoboosted and some additional probes, it is nearly impossible to hold any kind of expansion while ONLY producing lings out of your hatch. And even if you manage to hold it, the protoss player is in very convincing economic lead and can easily tech to the 4/5warpgatepush or if you opt to go roaches 3gate/robo. Now with 2supply roaches this allready hard earlygame got even worse. Especially in the early game every single supply counts, as larvae and money is really low. This nerf hurts the Zerg early- and midgame ALOT more than the lategame. Terran has SO many ways to pressure you in the early stages of the game. And you have to play safe against every single one of them. The fast reaper/bunkerrush is still an issue that should be nerfed a bit. Hellions are also great harassing units (esp. with igniterupgrade), both completly owning lings without speedupgrade. Now you have 3 options to deal with this: a) Making alot of spincecrawlers which got also nerfed (static defence) b) Making alot of queens (more or less static defence) c) Making roaches which were the only units you can move out of your base in a later stage of the game As mentioned above the roachnerf costst you not only more minerals, but also delaying your tech, which is enormous since you are facing thordrops or banshees very soon. Even prepatch it was incredibly hard for zerg to play save against every single harassoption terran (and toss) has, on some maps like incineration zone and kulas ravine nearly impossible. Nerfing the roach doesnt help a bit there, but limiting our options to purely static defence. So, how can we improve the current state the roach is in atm. First of all, you, blizzard should really think about its role in the zergarmy! Should it be a damage dealer? Should it be a tank? Or should it be an utiltyunit? Secound: IMMETIATLY give the roach back ist 1supply!!!!! A zerg tier1 unit should not cost 2 supply just due to the fact that it is zerg we are speaking of, not Protoss! You have several options to define the role oft he roach as a zerg unit. Please be consequent and give him ist place an role in the zergarmy! If you want him as tank, increase his armor/hp? and lower his dmg! If you want him has DD lower his HP and give him more attackrange and make him better hit-n-run controllable! If you want him as utility unit, lower his dmg and/or his HP and buff his upgrades and make them cheaper! Just please define his role and consider that it is „the swarm“ we are talking about! Another thing i want to mention is the lack of zergs „cool abilities“ as dustin browder would say. Protoss have earlygame sentries which is an amazing unit with alot of cool (perhaps overpowered) spells. Stalkers get blink, Zeals get charge and immortals simply have a kickass armor. Terrans have the reaper who can jump up and off cliffs, owning light armored melee units and buildings left and right, the marauder who has concussive shells which allow you to kite and enemy army to literally the end oft he world. Vikings can transform and banshees have a cool cloaking ability. Zerg units have not nearly that variaty or cool abilities that other races have, which also result in a often metioned „lack of diversity“ in the zerg army. Zerglings got speed, which is a great ability but nothing really cool. Roaches got burrowed move and regen which both got nerfed pretty hard and costs an incredible amount of gas and time to research. Hydralisk have NOTHING at all (being the backbone of zergarmies) .. and the corrupter still got the most useless spell in the game. That all makes Zerg the macro-oriented roach-heavy and low-diversity race it currently is. Sad but true
tl;dr
User was temp banned for this post.
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The surrender button got fixed and changed to N. Not optimal, but better than before.
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On May 14 2010 05:05 stroggos wrote:
give ultras leap(like the barbarian in diablo 2) "HEEEEEEEEEE"
THIS PLEASE!!
really give this at least 3 seconds of time, people want to use the Ultra, i mean its right in the name "Ultra" and everyone doesn't like how its working out...now IMAGINE WITH MEEEEeee.........
lets say you give Ultras leap, say 25 energy or something (not sure on the ability) your going up against a toss base with a maxxed army with ultra/ling and whatever else you prefer.
You see the FF go up and know your not getting through as your zerglings bunch up in front leaving your ultras stuck and free to get shot to pieces. All of a sudden, WOoooooooooOOOP (barbarian cry) your ultras are now past the FF wreaking havoc. Hell you could use it as a cliff jumping ability for a crazy flank. It would even help a LOT against marauders as when they are stimmed or running back, all of a sudden you hear the mighty roar of a god-damned mother f'ing ultralisk group of 8 jumping back getting in their face, or behind, effectively flanking. This probably needs to be thought out more, or I might just be a bit on the mental side, and this would screw a lot up. That is my two cents though, and I think it might just maybe be worth a shot...I mean come on...leaping ultras, how the hell do you say no? I'll tell you how, by saying yes.
I mean, they could be instantly in the fight with this, or at least be given that critical fighting chance from 0.23% to 23%
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On May 14 2010 23:54 brEEzE.jjd wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 23:48 DalaiLameR wrote:Dear Blizzard I'm playing your games almost exclusively since Starcraft1 back in 1997 with great joy and a bit obsession;) . I have to say, i love what you have done with Starcraft:Broodwar. It became by far the most competitive and balanced game there ever was and probably ever will be. Thus my feelings for Starcraft2 ranged between excitement and scepticism. But all my doubts disappeared when i first played the starcraft2 beta. I just loved the game from the first moment and have been playing it alot. At the moment i am rated around 1900+ in platinum. I also played Broodwar and Warcraft3 (being a former german champion at wc3) at a very competitive level, so I’m really into esports for a long time and have seen alot of patches. But nearly no patch every irritated me that much as the latest one. Normally i dont commentate or react on the whining about patchnotes, i simply think that players have to adapt to new strategies and counters except for relying on their convenience of their old ones. It is beta for gods sake! But i think this patch points into a completly wrong direction. I will focus on the roach-nerf first and try to explain, why it is so fatal for zerg and the zerg gameplay. First of all: Zergs are supposed to be „the swarm“. Their whole identity is about pure masses of small cheap units that can overwhelm enemy forces. Quantity over quality! Now, what you have done in Sc2 is putting the Hydralisk tier2 (making him a very strong unit costing 2 Supply instead of 1 in BW) and replacing him in the early game with the roach. But since the early stages of the beta, i was never sure, whats his intended role in the zerg army. It obviously was ridiculously powerful and made ZvZ a pain in the ***. Ist ability to tank due to his high armor and high HP/supply-relation made him the perfect tank for nearly any zergarmy in any stage of the game. Due to his upgrades it transitioned well from tier1 to tier2 to tier3 always being the backbone of the zerg army and still being it due tot he really bad ultralisk. It simply was (except for his lack of antiair) the complete package! The best tank, the best damage dealer and the best utility unit zerg had. His role was NEVER really defined. Now after serveral HUGE and some understandable nerfes, his role in the zerg army is still completley in the shadow (or should i say fog of war?). You lowered its armor, which is completly reasonable due tot he fact that ZvZ was only a roachfest without any other opportunities. You nerfed the burrowupgrade, u nerfed its speed while burrowed, you nerfed his regeneration rate while being burrowed and made him not regenerate a bit faster than any other zerg unit while unburrowed. Some of these nerfes were reasonable some of them were not. Now, to use the roach properly and with all his gimmicks, the zerg player have to fully commit himself to the roachstrategy. It simply costs so much time and gas to research all his upgrades, that every other techtree is sooo far behind, that it really isnt useful anymore. I think, thats one of the main reasons why you see nearly no unitdiversity in a zergarmy the whole game long. You just cant support this many techtrees (plus the really really hard counters to mutas with the ridiculous thor and new phoenix). Now you say that the roachnerf was made because of the lategame (Thanks alot for sharing your thoughts with us, i really appreciate this alot!). Now, first of all: i cant remeber ANY fight i’ve directly won with a 200 zerg army against a 200 protoss or terran army EVER. And thats ok, zerg arent supposed to win against the „balls“. As Zerg you try to make your opponent lose as much of his army as humanly/zergly possible and just reproduce your 200 army alot faster. I am completly fine with that. Another thing is: you mentioned that even with the right counters (i think of marauders and immortals?) toss and terran still would have lost the 200fight. Again: I have never won against a massmarauderterran or a massimmortaltoss with a heavyroach army. (P.S: the massmarauderarmy is extremly hard to counter for any zergplayer since zerg has no +dmg to armored and zerg has no real counter to mass upgraded marauders in the lategame). Ok, now lets take a look at the zerglategame: As a Zerg you face a terranarmy consisting of some tanks, 2 Thors (since the demolish any mutaliskforce zerg has) and A LOT of marauders and medivacs (not that many marines sind they die to fast to banelings and there is no realy air-threat due to the muta vs thor situation). You need units that take the enemy fire so that zerglings and hydralisk can deal enough dmg to reduce the opponents forces and infestors can mindcontroll or fungalgrowth the terran army. There is simply no other zerg unit that can provide this and even roaches die incredible fast tot he mass marauders. Dont even think about using ultralisks since this highend unit is gets hardcountered by the marauder (a tier1 unit btw). Against Protoss you will face psistorm and colossi which both DESTROY zergling/hydra armies … and once again the ultralisk is pretty useless due to his vulnerabilty to stalker/immortals. I simply dont see the imbalance of roaches in the lategame since you have no other tanking units and no darkswarm ..^^ The key point is now the lategame but the early and midgame which is allready really really hard for zerg to come out undamaged. My assumption ist hat the roachnerf effects the zergs early and midgame WAY more and in a devastation way than it changes the lategame. Zealots in medium numbers (5-6) simply destroy zerglings it’s not even funny. So your only choice are roaches which are supposed to counter zealots pretty well i think. The fact is: they dont if they are not creep and not speedupgraded. Even dealing with a single 10gate zealotrush which is constantly chronoboosted and some additional probes, it is nearly impossible to hold any kind of expansion while ONLY producing lings out of your hatch. And even if you manage to hold it, the protoss player is in very convincing economic lead and can easily tech to the 4/5warpgatepush or if you opt to go roaches 3gate/robo. Now with 2supply roaches this allready hard earlygame got even worse. Especially in the early game every single supply counts, as larvae and money is really low. This nerf hurts the Zerg early- and midgame ALOT more than the lategame. Terran has SO many ways to pressure you in the early stages of the game. And you have to play safe against every single one of them. The fast reaper/bunkerrush is still an issue that should be nerfed a bit. Hellions are also great harassing units (esp. with igniterupgrade), both completly owning lings without speedupgrade. Now you have 3 options to deal with this: a) Making alot of spincecrawlers which got also nerfed (static defence) b) Making alot of queens (more or less static defence) c) Making roaches which were the only units you can move out of your base in a later stage of the game As mentioned above the roachnerf costst you not only more minerals, but also delaying your tech, which is enormous since you are facing thordrops or banshees very soon. Even prepatch it was incredibly hard for zerg to play save against every single harassoption terran (and toss) has, on some maps like incineration zone and kulas ravine nearly impossible. Nerfing the roach doesnt help a bit there, but limiting our options to purely static defence. So, how can we improve the current state the roach is in atm. First of all, you, blizzard should really think about its role in the zergarmy! Should it be a damage dealer? Should it be a tank? Or should it be an utiltyunit? Secound: IMMETIATLY give the roach back ist 1supply!!!!! A zerg tier1 unit should not cost 2 supply just due to the fact that it is zerg we are speaking of, not Protoss! You have several options to define the role oft he roach as a zerg unit. Please be consequent and give him ist place an role in the zergarmy! If you want him as tank, increase his armor/hp? and lower his dmg! If you want him has DD lower his HP and give him more attackrange and make him better hit-n-run controllable! If you want him as utility unit, lower his dmg and/or his HP and buff his upgrades and make them cheaper! Just please define his role and consider that it is „the swarm“ we are talking about! Another thing i want to mention is the lack of zergs „cool abilities“ as dustin browder would say. Protoss have earlygame sentries which is an amazing unit with alot of cool (perhaps overpowered) spells. Stalkers get blink, Zeals get charge and immortals simply have a kickass armor. Terrans have the reaper who can jump up and off cliffs, owning light armored melee units and buildings left and right, the marauder who has concussive shells which allow you to kite and enemy army to literally the end oft he world. Vikings can transform and banshees have a cool cloaking ability. Zerg units have not nearly that variaty or cool abilities that other races have, which also result in a often metioned „lack of diversity“ in the zerg army. Zerglings got speed, which is a great ability but nothing really cool. Roaches got burrowed move and regen which both got nerfed pretty hard and costs an incredible amount of gas and time to research. Hydralisk have NOTHING at all (being the backbone of zergarmies) .. and the corrupter still got the most useless spell in the game. That all makes Zerg the macro-oriented roach-heavy and low-diversity race it currently is. Sad but true tl;dr
brEEzE.jjd: Fuck off, enjoy your ban
DalaiLameR: Quality post, I agree about 95%
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On May 14 2010 23:35 fuzzehbunneh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 23:12 okrane wrote:
How about keeping the current 2 food cost and making Roaches cost 100minerals, instead of 75/25? oh god yes. that would be amazing. which is why they wont do it. the zerg just straight up wouldnt mine gas. mass ling roach and queen for aa...
Zerg would bank more gas for Muta/Hydra Transitioning or upgrades, all of which would clearly spice things up a bit
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EPT
