EPTPatch 12 - Changes and Discussion - Page 67
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
| ||
|
Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
I think Blizzard just wants to see different units than just roach at 200/200 but my ZvT is far from understanding enough about a 200/200 battle. Maybe infestor hydra should work fine? The game is so young it's really hard to say anything about balance. For example if you put Korean Zergs into the European tournaments they would probably be winning most of them. It's really hard to say where skill ends and imbalance begins, and even harder to know what sort of learning curves are attached to the races. People think that all the races should be equally easy to master - thus being equally good at any moment from now until 10 years into the future. That is just not the case. The races are so vastly different I doubt much can be said about learning curve at this point. It could be that a race that loses a lot early on becomes stronger with practice than the others, and the other way around. | ||
|
fuzzehbunneh
United States66 Posts
| ||
|
ChinaRestaurant
Austria324 Posts
edit: when i first saw that roaches were only 1 food i thought it was a typo lol | ||
|
Chex
United States87 Posts
It seems to me that the Zerg in general need a complete overhaul. The problem was a manifested in the fact that people massed roaches but instead of addressing the actual problem this patch just addresses a symptom. The truth is that unlike P or T, Z really doesn't have very many counter units or specialty units. In many ways our unit roster is pretty lack luster. Versus almost anything you go roach, hydra, infestor. Maybe you switch in corruptors for hydras but that's hardly a change. Roaches were the backbone of every army simply because they had respectable health and range and with a LOT of research, could still regen. They weren't the backbone of the army because they were an AMAZING unit that overshadowed all other units. They are an ok unit that overshadows othe zerg units because those other units blow hard. Changing Roaches from 1 to 2 supply makes sense if you want people to use less roaches and you want to balance a late game army. But I think its the wrong fix. Ask yourself, P has immortals and stalkers which are good vs armor, t has tanks and marauders. Both races have units which devastate light units, specialized air, etc. The result is P and T have several viable army compositions which can work in different match ups. Z has 1 basic composition that worked. I can go in depth about why Z units are lack luster but I'm sure most people are familiar with the problem. Suffice to say that our T3 units with teh exception of the B lord are worthless. Our caster/s is pretty good but the recent changes make it take a lot longer to be effective. Corruptors' special ability use to allow for some mid game harassment but now it is completely worthless, etc etc. Which brings us back to Roaches. As a Zerg player, yes it is pretty boring to only mass roaches and yes I'm sure its annoying for T and P to be faced with so many roaches end game. But now I ask, what options does Z have? | ||
|
freestalker
469 Posts
 No, really. I didn't play zerg since the patch, I usually don't even use roaches that much. But I play random 2v2 as toss just to get some change.. Not just do the same stuff again and again as zerg, hoping my unit composition is good enough to defend. And I am hoping they will really make ability changes for zerg in the next patch, as they 'promised'. | ||
|
nodq
Germany123 Posts
On May 14 2010 21:00 Tristy wrote: So youre solution to a boring unit is to make it suck so people dont use it? Instead of ... say making it more interesting without being overpowered? Now Roach is just a gimp version of Hydra that cant hit air and can take a beating... I wont take any final conclusions yet because I do not know whats in store for patch 13, but I disagree with Blizzard's decission to simply double the unit cost without changing the unit stats at all. jup.. no point to get roaches if u can get hydras. actually u may use 2-3 roaches in early to block/defend... thats it, WOW very interesting unit, very new for SC2 and soooo fun to play, its just as good as stalkers or sentrys (sigh....) | ||
|
ChinaRestaurant
Austria324 Posts
On May 14 2010 21:40 Chex wrote: At first I was pretty pissed about this patch. Now I'm just confused. It seems to me that the Zerg in general need a complete overhaul. The problem was a manifested in the fact that people massed roaches but instead of addressing the actual problem this patch just addresses a symptom. The truth is that unlike P or T, Z really doesn't have very many counter units or specialty units. In many ways our unit roster is pretty lack luster. Versus almost anything you go roach, hydra, infestor. Maybe you switch in corruptors for hydras but that's hardly a change. Roaches were the backbone of every army simply because they had respectable health and range and with a LOT of research, could still regen. They weren't the backbone of the army because they were an AMAZING unit that overshadowed all other units. They are an ok unit that overshadows othe zerg units because those other units blow hard. Changing Roaches from 1 to 2 supply makes sense if you want people to use less roaches and you want to balance a late game army. But I think its the wrong fix. Ask yourself, P has immortals and stalkers which are good vs armor, t has tanks and marauders. Both races have units which devastate light units, specialized air, etc. The result is P and T have several viable army compositions which can work in different match ups. Z has 1 basic composition that worked. I can go in depth about why Z units are lack luster but I'm sure most people are familiar with the problem. Suffice to say that our T3 units with teh exception of the B lord are worthless. Our caster/s is pretty good but the recent changes make it take a lot longer to be effective. Corruptors' special ability use to allow for some mid game harassment but now it is completely worthless, etc etc. Which brings us back to Roaches. As a Zerg player, yes it is pretty boring to only mass roaches and yes I'm sure its annoying for T and P to be faced with so many roaches end game. But now I ask, what options does Z have? Exactly, and those units cost how much food compared to what a roach used to? | ||
|
TheTuna
United States286 Posts
HOWEVER. I do agree that this severly wounds the nature of the Zerg as the swarming, throwaway army, and that's a very bad thing. Currently, the only unit Zerg have to "swarm" with is the zergling; this is a SERIOUS problem. Roaches shoudl be nerfed appropriately and dropped back to 1 food so as to preserve Zerg character; as it stands the race is, as many have said, pretty much a total mess, | ||
|
LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
On May 14 2010 21:25 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This is not a big deal guys. Early game where this change does the most I haven't been roach rushed by a good Zerg in forever, mid-game where your roaches die as much as you make them you will only be spending 1-5 more minerals per roach more if you're losing units, and late-game this change is excellent where a 200/200 Zerg army was much stronger than a 200/200 Protoss one. The effect of this change with exception of 200/200 scenarios is really going to be minimal. You only say this because you're not one of them 5gaters. Early game this affects survivability vs bust builds alot. | ||
|
Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
| ||
|
fuzzehbunneh
United States66 Posts
On May 14 2010 22:27 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Well it's not a big deal in my games then lol :D youre one of the few then that doesnt cheese | ||
|
IrVeNoJu
Poland61 Posts
| ||
|
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 14 2010 21:36 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Sunkensssssssss. I think Blizzard just wants to see different units than just roach at 200/200 but my ZvT is far from understanding enough about a 200/200 battle. Maybe infestor hydra should work fine? The game is so young it's really hard to say anything about balance. For example if you put Korean Zergs into the European tournaments they would probably be winning most of them. It's really hard to say where skill ends and imbalance begins, and even harder to know what sort of learning curves are attached to the races. People think that all the races should be equally easy to master - thus being equally good at any moment from now until 10 years into the future. That is just not the case. The races are so vastly different I doubt much can be said about learning curve at this point. It could be that a race that loses a lot early on becomes stronger with practice than the others, and the other way around. These are really great points that everyone should consider. | ||
|
Esseim
34 Posts
| ||
|
GoDannY
Germany442 Posts
Protoss being my mainrace and playing Zerg just for fun, I admit that my ZvT may not represents anything but speaking for PvZ there were always some defense necessary to protect an fast expo and furthermore, I mostly used the roach rather as tank, due to its huge HP and Hydra/ling as damagedealer since many warpgateunits have damagebonus vs armored (hydras are light). It does quite well against a warpgate composition and once collosi or templar enter the battlefield its time for corrupters/infestors. What I noticed for many around gold level Zerg players is that they are sticking to their early 2base way to long (which also damages the "swarm attitude"). But thats just my pov... | ||
|
turnip
United States193 Posts
1. Decreased viability of the roach as an endgame tank unit. This was necessary, and the reason provided for the nerf. Roaches were too strong at 200/200 just due to their well-rounded nature - high hp, decent damage, great speed, and some utility (burrow). After the nerf, I believe them to be too weak in the late game, as their qualities do not make up for their food cost any longer. Zergs are going to need to come up with a new strategy against terran mech/marine-heavy balls and the standard protoss ball. 2. Heavily damaged the roach's role as the zerg's mobile early defense against marine/marauder/hellion assaults and zealot/sentry heavy 4-5gate pushes. Roaches were far better than spine crawlers in many single choke situations and completely irreplaceable on maps like Blistering Sands and Kulas Ravine. The mineral cost of an extra overlord or two early game is the least of the problems this roach supply nerf introduces. The timing and resource utilization of zerg early game especially versus protoss) is dramatically changed. Zerg's early game is a balancing act, much more so than the other races. It's commonly accepted that zerg needs two hatcheries quite early for almost every game plan, even if you do not intend to mine immediately from your second base (zergling mass). The larvae are simply crucial. Zerg's constant early-game challenge, then, is to either survive until tier 2 and proceed to saturate both bases or exploit a perceived flaw in the enemy's play and all-in. Deciding when to gas, how much to gas, when to drone, when to make units (and how many), how to use larva, when to make tech buildings - this is zerg's early-game decision making. Our goal is to defend against our opponent's attacks or harassment while making as many drones as we can get away with. Enter roach nerf. Any play involving roaches now requires much more planning. We need to have more overlords in advance if we hope to make a substantial number of roaches for any reason. Our larva situation, which was already tight at the 15-30 food mark, is much tighter. Our minerals need to go into overlords early if we can even consider more than a token roach force. Our defense against the 4-5gate or the marauder/hellion rush is that much more difficult and damaging to our economy. Our "instant roach - just add roaches" opportunity attack is no longer as strong of an option to punish teching or slow-turtling players. This is a shame, as our only other option for early aggression is some sort of baneling/zergling attack, which is easy for T and P to defend against. The roach supply increase was the wrong nerf to apply to roaches. Zerg players already have enough trouble walking the early-game tightrope without Blizzard throwing tomatoes at us. | ||
|
mousepad
United States136 Posts
On May 14 2010 22:10 TheTuna wrote: The roach nerf was definitely needed, in my opinion. Having a unit that was pretty much straight up stronger than the zealot for essentially the cost but took up half the supply was simply absurd; a 145 HP unit with ground attack range and solid armor for 1 supply was just nuts. HOWEVER. I do agree that this severly wounds the nature of the Zerg as the swarming, throwaway army, and that's a very bad thing. Currently, the only unit Zerg have to "swarm" with is the zergling; this is a SERIOUS problem. Roaches shoudl be nerfed appropriately and dropped back to 1 food so as to preserve Zerg character; as it stands the race is, as many have said, pretty much a total mess, Sure, if balancing meant a one on one duel to the death between only these units. You forget that Zerg has to tech up and spend gas in order to go toe to toe with Zealots. This changes a lot of what's become standard timings for when and if you build a roach warren. It definitely makes me reconsider fast expanding. Early pressure can delay that tech up pretty easily if I did something like that (fast expo-ing is pretty risky to begin with). The larva are sooo important against 3-4 gate/rax rushes -- its gonna be challenging. | ||
|
Mic81
Poland2 Posts
On May 14 2010 02:49 Kennigit wrote: Shitty posts will result in immediate warnings and bans StarCraft II Beta -- Patch 12 (version 0.14.0.15343) The latest patch notes can always be found on our StarCraft II Beta General Discussion forum. Balance Changes * PROTOSS o Forge + Build time increased from 35 to 45. + Life and shield values decreased from 550/550 to 400/400. o Mothership + Vortex now removes Force Fields within its area of effect. * TERRAN o Thor + Radius decreased from 1.375 to 0.8125. + Model size reduced to match new radius. * ZERG o Roach + Supply count increased from 1 to 2. User Interface * Several Hotkey changes have been made (German client only). Bug Fixes * Fixed a crash which sometimes occurred when quitting the program. http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=24702406287&sid=5000 | ||
|
Mic81
Poland2 Posts
It's a very good change. I knowy that many zergs will be complaining but seriously, 2 supply: 2 roches - 290 hp, 32 dmg to all counters 1 stalker 10 dmg+ 4 arm, 160 hp- 1 maruder 125 hp, 10 + 10 dmg - 1 zealot 150 hp . Zerg should realize that it was imba. 4 supply: 4 roches - 580 hp, 64 dmg to all counters 1 immortal 350 hp 20+30 dmg, siege tank 3 supply 150 hp, 6 supply: 6 roches 870 hp, 96 dmg conutres easyli 1 collosus, 1 ultralisk, 1 imor+stalker, 1 st +mar+mar I know zerg- swarm but it is said weak in numbers, roache is not weak at all- 145 hp, 16 dmg, burow, regen, speed So 1>2 is far better than lowering roache hp to 75 cos it would be countered by colosuss for exmp. | ||
| ||
