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On May 14 2010 18:15 Mentos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 17:23 GoDannY wrote:
The roach deserved that nerf since day one, it was a totally insane tank from tier one and being worth the supply of a zergling and not even much more expensive. a zergling takes up 0,5 supply fyi, newbie.
Being pretty sure having enough years of starcraft to not be called a newbie - here the better, more Mentos friendly version:
A roach was a crazy tank in tear one worth the supply of buildings zergling(s) (means you produce 2 at once totally take up 1 supply which means its mathematacly 0.5 supply fyai and since only integer is displayed this might be confusing for some readers regarding the supply count) and a comparable low costs.
/sarcasm
So it perfectly deserved being to supply 2 in order to make other openings instead of massing roaches more viable.
EDIT: left out comments that were taking too much care of one not-yet-grown-up raging nerd in false hope this discussions would ever get serious.
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Which is why the genius designers should have adjusted stats for the Roach to keep it massable instead of being the idiots they are right now making Zerg even more bland and distanced from the swarm identity than it already is.
Terran swarms more than Zerg atm.. Wow... sums it up perfectly.
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I'm just loling at the people saying ultra changes will help.
Zerg has problems with t1 and the transition into t2 against things like 4 gate push and quick air.
Ultra changes, overseer changes and all that jazz are going to do exactly jack squat to help this.
So the menacing zerg is now some weak ass shit that
1) needs to FE, it might as well since it needs 2 hatches to function relatively properly. well now it's even harder to get away with it thanks to roach price hike in minerals and larva.
2) needs to fast t2 so it doesn't get harassed or forced to invest into 4-5 queens. which shall I remind you are still 150m a pop.
3) 200/200 of zerg should die to about any other 200/200 army now with the big reduction in tanking potential. "but its ok you can rebuild all that" if we have the resources sure.
basically Zerg is an uphill battle where your moves are very predictable unless you're doing some kind of all-in.
/snore
my 2c prediction is that if Blizzard does nothing to help Zerg t1, once Terran and Toss figure out the optimal pressure openings it will be gg with the Zerg forced to stay on the defensive pretty much all game long.
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So honestly. Who spent all day playing Zerg and got really pissed off at how hard it is now? Dont flame me for whining, but you Terran and Protoss players are just claiming its a good change without even trying to play Zerg haha... I just want to know how many Zerg players have given up hope too?
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I love how blizzard added the moving shoot on the phoenix in a recent patch, but i sincerely hope that this community will keep voicing an opinion about adding additional micro to more units, for example the hellion. Now that we know that its fully possible to do, i think we should not settle with the phoenix. Thinking about sc2 as an e-sport, i think this addition will increase the entertainment value immensly as it increases the skill cap considerably and allows for even more spectacular play at high levels.
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Seriously, why make it 2 supply NOW?
Make Roach have lower HP, maybe like 70-80, make it have insane regen and burrowed regen, and have it cost 2 supply, keeping the damage the same.
Then it'd be somewhat unique and interesting instead of being a boring mass unit that can't even be massed anymore. Seriously, if they just made Roach 2 supply when the beta first came out, it'd probably have been completely fine and it'd still have had a role. Now roach lost everything that ever was even moderately personal about it and then got increased to 2 supply, pretty much destroying the entire point of using Roaches besides the fact that Zerg's tier 1 and tier 2 suck, so they have to megarush Hydra or just not have enough units lategame. Although I guess it'll be funny having the Zerg be like 50 supply ahead of the T/P in the midgame, . maybe Blizz will realize that that doesn't make much sense.
On May 14 2010 19 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 14 2010 19 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:34 djdolber wrote:
I love how blizzard added the moving shoot on the phoenix in a recent patch, but i sincerely hope that this community will keep voicing an opinion about adding additional micro to more units, for example the hellion. Now that we know that its fully possible to do, i think we should not settle with the phoenix. Thinking about sc2 as an e-sport, i think this addition will increase the entertainment value immensly as it increases the skill cap considerably and allows for even more spectacular play at high levels.
The hellions can already micro in such a way the speedlings very rarely get a hit off. In SCBW there were Hydras in tier 1 that could easily defeat Vultures and the Sunkens were a lot better than Spine Crawlers are. If Hellions could micro like Vultures could in SCBW, I seriously think that'd be quite imbalanced. The only early Zerg "unit" that could ever land a hit would be the Spine Crawler.
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TBH vs t, this isnt that huge, but vs p, we have little to no chances.
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On May 14 2010 19:35 Shikyo wrote:Sunkens were a lot better than Spine Crawlers are.
Definitely not true, spending a drone is so much cheaper now.
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I think the Roach may need a slight armor or hp buff to compensate this change. But I am glad that they decided to make this change, collect some data then apply the compensation buffs. If they tried to both increase supply cost and buff the unit in one patch it would be much harder identify the effects of each change.
The same goes for Thors assuming that they may now be doing slightly too much damage since more can hit a target at a time due to their size. We will probably see a small damage nerf (at least vs ground) as Blizz has indicated may be required. But again, making the change to their size, collecting data then performing the damage nerf is a much more sensible approach.
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Lalalaland34510 Posts
I just played a few games going Roaches. I never hit 200/200 but I can say that jesus I have never had to spend this many larva on Overlords so quickly. I'd pretty much have to build 2-3 Overlords every other larva cycle.
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More than almost any other previous patch change, I feel like there is significant consensus that the Roach nerf was overdone. Can someone make one of those polls so we can get some numbers? I think it would be interesting. A simple Yes/No poll would suffice. Thanks!
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I don't like this change either, but.. i don't understand all the whines and flames. If the patch 12 Win/loss ratio of zergs is at 40/60 or something, blizzard WILL change it.
So hey, i'm zerg, but i'll try to get around with it.
2c!
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On May 14 2010 19:52 DTown wrote:
More than almost any other previous patch change, I feel like there is significant consensus that the Roach nerf was overdone. Can someone make one of those polls so we can get some numbers? I think it would be interesting. A simple Yes/No poll would suffice. Thanks!
Poll would be useless.
You would have 5% of the people actually having an idea if it was a good idea or not, 40% zerg players voting no because they hate nerfs for zerg, 40% P/T who love that Z gets nerfs, and 15% that is somewhere in between.
(my example is maybe a bit far-fetched, but doing a poll now, less then a day after the patch is just not gonna give an accurate reflection at all of how this change affected the game)
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Haven't seen a single roach today yet, rofl
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this completely destroys roaches, and i generally dont like the on-average higher supply cost for units in sc2, makes you hit supply cap much too early
they should raise supply cap to 500, make depots/ol/pylons give 16 supply, and double supply cost for most units, would make it much easier to fine-tune units too, roach could be 3 supply then, that would be perfect. also hydra could be 3 supply then, it being 2 supply now is just too much and un-zergy
also, i would still really like to see hydras and roaches switch tiers. then after roaches are t2 and hydras are t1 their roles could be further specialized by giving one +vs armored and one +vs light damage, i think roaches with +vs light would fill a lurker-like role, which is currently missing for zerg
apart from the roach change it surprises me how blizzard still isnt touching voidrays, they are still op imho, i win almost every pvt with them. the thor change is kinda meh, i liked them being huge
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The roach doesn't need a buff to compensate. If anything it needs a nerf while being back to 1 supply. Zerg isn't Protoss, Zerg has to be like a swarm.
I've suggested this all the time:
Roach 1 supply, 2 armor, HP nerf in such a way that ling v roach is roughly the same as it was in patch 11 (HP nerf + Armor buff cancel each other out vs low damage units, make roach weaker vs high damage units).
Honestly, it's the only way to keep zvz interesting and zerg swarmy.
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On May 14 2010 20:14 summerloud wrote:
this completely destroys roaches, and i generally dont like the on-average higher supply cost for units in sc2, makes you hit supply cap much too early
they should raise supply cap to 500, make depots/ol/pylons give 16 supply, and double supply cost for most units, would make it much easier to fine-tune units too, roach could be 3 supply then, that would be perfect. also hydra could be 3 supply then, it being 2 supply now is just too much and un-zergy
also, i would still really like to see hydras and roaches switch tiers. then after roaches are t2 and hydras are t1 their roles could be further specialized by giving one +vs armored and one +vs light damage, i think roaches with +vs light would fill a lurker-like role, which is currently missing for zerg
if they made hydras t1 they would have to severly nerf them in some fashion which none of us want.
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On May 14 2010 18:50 GoDannY wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 18:15 Mentos wrote:On May 14 2010 17:23 GoDannY wrote:
The roach deserved that nerf since day one, it was a totally insane tank from tier one and being worth the supply of a zergling and not even much more expensive. a zergling takes up 0,5 supply fyi, newbie. Since you are a bad mannerd nerdface I'm not gonna excuse myself for making that sound somewhat wrong. So being pretty sure having enough years of starcraft to not be called a newbie - here the better (and polish friendly) version: A roach was a crazy tank in tear one worth the supply of buildings zergling(s) (means you produce 2 at once totally take up 1 supply which means its mathematacly 0.5 supply fyai and since only integer is displayed this might be confusing for some readers regarding the supply count) and a comparable low costs. /sarcasm So it perfectly deserved being to supply 2 in order to make other openings instead of massing roaches more viable.
first off, way to go calling others bad mannered and then proceeding to add racist remarks to your own posts.
secondly, if you had any idea what you were talking about, you'd understand that there already were MANY viable and USED openings than mass roach, and that people learned to counter that cheesy strat long time ago, and only newbs like you felt it was powerful or lost to it.
the real problem with roaches was that they were powerful through mid to late game when mixed with other types of units, and while doubling their supply requirement is the easiest, most primitive solution to the problem, it can actually render zergs underpowered in the said mid to late game, time will tell.
I'd appreciate if you didnt make another half assed post with some newbie facts that make any sense only in your head.
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On May 14 2010 20:16 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 20:14 summerloud wrote:
this completely destroys roaches, and i generally dont like the on-average higher supply cost for units in sc2, makes you hit supply cap much too early
they should raise supply cap to 500, make depots/ol/pylons give 16 supply, and double supply cost for most units, would make it much easier to fine-tune units too, roach could be 3 supply then, that would be perfect. also hydra could be 3 supply then, it being 2 supply now is just too much and un-zergy
also, i would still really like to see hydras and roaches switch tiers. then after roaches are t2 and hydras are t1 their roles could be further specialized by giving one +vs armored and one +vs light damage, i think roaches with +vs light would fill a lurker-like role, which is currently missing for zerg if they made hydras t1 they would have to severly nerf them in some fashion which none of us want.
You mean less high supply protoss-like expensive units and more low supply zerg-like cheaper units?
Maybe they could even give the cheaper hydra a little speed back while off creep?
Yeah sure, go ahead and make Hydras Zerg again.
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Incoming edit*
I thought that Zerg was going to get changes to Ultralisks this patch? So how come all they got was nerfed??
Confused. It's good to see a Terran buff, but are they still waiting on the ultralisk?
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EPT
