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Patch 12 - Changes and Discussion - Page 66

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Kvz
Profile Joined March 2010
United States463 Posts
May 14 2010 11:28 GMT
#1301
People will adapt to the roach change. It was overdone, but people will adapt.

I really wish blizzard would look into ghosts vrs zerg more than anything though. Snipe is ridiculous.
NrG.Kvz
ChApFoU
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
France2988 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-14 11:33:36
May 14 2010 11:28 GMT
#1302
I really don't get the Roach nerf. I there any major imba with Roach in PvZ ? Coz in TvZ they've been perfectly fine since the last nerf. It will make early all-ins even harder to defend in ZvT (and you already had to worry about banshees, early drops depending on the map)

And I'm not even a whining zerg user, I'm Terran actually. I thought the last patch made perfect sense (phoenix, ultra buff etc) but I'm pretty perplex about this one :/

edit : I've just read Blizz's explanation and I really still don't get it. Roaches hard to counter in huge supply battles ? I don't know about protoss but terran has at least 3 very hard counters to roaches : Tanks, marauders and Thors absolutely rape Roaches in any kind of situation. And I'm not even talking about the 3 combined : it's like throwing a wave of 0-0 lings at a pack of 12 archons.
"I honestly think that whoever invented toilet paper in a genius" Kang Min
Latham
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
9593 Posts
May 14 2010 11:29 GMT
#1303
On May 14 2010 20:21 Silentness wrote:
Incoming edit*

I thought that Zerg was going to get changes to Ultralisks this patch? So how come all they got was nerfed??

Confused. It's good to see a Terran buff, but are they still waiting on the ultralisk?


Well, I'd consider this patch a hotfix for the exiting bug.

I'm sure we'll get the ultra buff next patch along with the server wipe in a week or two.
For the curse of life is the curse of want. PC = https://be.pcpartpicker.com/user/LathamTK/builds/#view=CrqmP6
ArdentZeal
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany155 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-14 11:32:05
May 14 2010 11:29 GMT
#1304
to apply a little math.
early / midgame:

before patch --> one overlord every 8 roaches
after patch --> one overlord every 4 roaches

==> cost of 8 roaches is increased by 100 minerals and one larvae so 850m / 200g instead of 700m / 200g and 10 larvae instead of 9

a nerf for sure, but not as big as everyone makes us believe it is in early / midgame. I guess the real problem occurs somewhere lategame, in which building 150 roaches is no longer a viable possibility.

In my opinion, this is a step closer to get the ultra as a tank and not just roaches. Give the zerg their long-anticipated ultrabuff and we should be fine.
Iplaythings
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Denmark9110 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-14 11:31:09
May 14 2010 11:30 GMT
#1305
Except for the roach change I praise these changes... Next, fix le ultralisks

And guess my ZvT is gonna be pure baneling, ling, muta / hydra-infestor now. Sadly.
In the woods, there lurks..
prototype.
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada4215 Posts
May 14 2010 11:30 GMT
#1306
Remember when roaches were unique?

Now it's a unit... that attacks ground. And it's gradually getting worse at doing that.
( ・´ー・`)
ChinaRestaurant
Profile Joined May 2008
Austria324 Posts
May 14 2010 11:31 GMT
#1307
Most influential change in this patch obviously is the roach nerf. I really liked seeing this change (inb4 youre not a zerg player). They just seemed too easy to mass and once you get to lategame a 200/200 army with mostly roaches was at least how ive percieved it too hard to counter with any other straight forward fighting unit (marauder/immortal/stalker). This way at least zerg has to come up with a plan for lategame that consists of something else than making even more roaches than they did in early/mid game. Now im looking forward to a Marauder nerf (im thinking hp/cost decrease and maybe a slight damage shift giving them more bonus damage against armored but less basis damage combined with less overall damage. Supply increase couldve worked if there was something like 2.5 supply but there isnt so a hp decrease together with a cost decrease would be the best course to take imo). Not sure on how to fix protoss tho, but they dont seem as broken as zerg were and terran is as you still have voidrays easily accessible and viable and theres still forcefield which might need some work. All in all if there will be another change like the roach nerf to marauders i think the units will pretty much be balanced statwise. peace out
SPAAAAAAACE
summerloud
Profile Joined March 2010
Austria1201 Posts
May 14 2010 11:34 GMT
#1308
On May 14 2010 20:16 Ballistixz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 14 2010 20:14 summerloud wrote:
this completely destroys roaches, and i generally dont like the on-average higher supply cost for units in sc2, makes you hit supply cap much too early

they should raise supply cap to 500, make depots/ol/pylons give 16 supply, and double supply cost for most units, would make it much easier to fine-tune units too, roach could be 3 supply then, that would be perfect. also hydra could be 3 supply then, it being 2 supply now is just too much and un-zergy

also, i would still really like to see hydras and roaches switch tiers. then after roaches are t2 and hydras are t1 their roles could be further specialized by giving one +vs armored and one +vs light damage, i think roaches with +vs light would fill a lurker-like role, which is currently missing for zerg



if they made hydras t1 they would have to severly nerf them in some fashion which none of us want.


all it would take is converting some of their total damage to +vs armored damage, that would be enough nerf to make them not rape all other t1, also this would make them lose vs rines and zlots again, so they would require backup vs those units - t2 roaches with +vs light damage could fill that role
summerloud
Profile Joined March 2010
Austria1201 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-14 11:37:51
May 14 2010 11:37 GMT
#1309
On May 14 2010 20:31 ChinaRestaurant wrote:
... Now im looking forward to a Marauder nerf (im thinking hp/cost decrease and maybe a slight damage shift giving them more bonus damage against armored but less basis damage combined with less overall damage. Supply increase couldve worked if there was something like 2.5 supply but there isnt so a hp decrease together with a cost decrease would be the best course to take imo). Not sure on how to fix protoss tho, but they dont seem as broken as zerg were and terran is as you still have voidrays easily accessible and viable and theres still forcefield which might need some work. All in all if there will be another change like the roach nerf to marauders i think the units will pretty much be balanced statwise. peace out


i totally agree, and as for the problem with 2.5 supply - thats why i think the idea of doubling supply cost for all units and raising the cap to 400 or 500 would be really good - rauders would be a good unit for 5 supply. i also really like the idea of converting more of their damage to +vs armored

the problem with voidrays is just that they dont lose their charge when switching units, if that would be changed they would be the dedicated anti-capital ship fighter they are supposed to be, and not the "owns everything when charged up" monster they are now

edit: maybe make them instantly lose charge when they move without firing would be a good compromise
ChinaRestaurant
Profile Joined May 2008
Austria324 Posts
May 14 2010 11:46 GMT
#1310
On May 14 2010 20:37 summerloud wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 14 2010 20:31 ChinaRestaurant wrote:
... Now im looking forward to a Marauder nerf (im thinking hp/cost decrease and maybe a slight damage shift giving them more bonus damage against armored but less basis damage combined with less overall damage. Supply increase couldve worked if there was something like 2.5 supply but there isnt so a hp decrease together with a cost decrease would be the best course to take imo). Not sure on how to fix protoss tho, but they dont seem as broken as zerg were and terran is as you still have voidrays easily accessible and viable and theres still forcefield which might need some work. All in all if there will be another change like the roach nerf to marauders i think the units will pretty much be balanced statwise. peace out


i totally agree, and as for the problem with 2.5 supply - thats why i think the idea of doubling supply cost for all units and raising the cap to 400 or 500 would be really good - rauders would be a good unit for 5 supply. i also really like the idea of converting more of their damage to +vs armored

the problem with voidrays is just that they dont lose their charge when switching units, if that would be changed they would be the dedicated anti-capital ship fighter they are supposed to be, and not the "owns everything when charged up" monster they are now

edit: maybe make them instantly lose charge when they move without firing would be a good compromise


I think maybe making voidrays accelerate quite a bit slower might solve the charge issue a bit. As it is now i just find them a tad bit too mobile for their firepower once charged up.
SPAAAAAAACE
abrasion
Profile Joined April 2010
Australia722 Posts
May 14 2010 11:48 GMT
#1311
I'm a Protoss player but even I think this move is a bit harsh on the Roach.
I'm happy with it being 2 supply but give it some HP or armour back then.
I also agree with Ultralisk changes - the unit is currently not used at all.
Wouldn't mind seeing some Marauder changes too - that thing still steamrolls the shit out of people.
derpmods
Tristy
Profile Joined April 2010
Norway172 Posts
May 14 2010 12:00 GMT
#1312
On May 14 2010 03:24 Kletus wrote:
Wow, what an indirect marauder nerf!

Seriously guys, stop whining; it's not the end just because roaches are at 2 food now. I, for one, think that this is a positive change because roaches are boring and I'm looking forward to seeing them used less.


So youre solution to a boring unit is to make it suck so people dont use it? Instead of ... say making it more interesting without being overpowered? Now Roach is just a gimp version of Hydra that cant hit air and can take a beating...
I wont take any final conclusions yet because I do not know whats in store for patch 13, but I disagree with Blizzard's decission to simply double the unit cost without changing the unit stats at all.
"Choose life!"
Antisocialmunky
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5913 Posts
May 14 2010 12:02 GMT
#1313
I'm a little miffed at the Thor change. I wish they just fixed the path finding instead of slowly unepicing all the units that used to be epic.
[゚n゚] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605
Sephy90
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1785 Posts
May 14 2010 12:03 GMT
#1314
On May 14 2010 20:30 prototype. wrote:
Remember when roaches were unique?

Now it's a unit... that attacks ground. And it's gradually getting worse at doing that.

i don't think roaches were ever unique, they were just the zerg's new "zealot" high hp tank / high damage but with range. when i first started playing i found it pretty retarded how much hp they had and the amount that they cost to make. i don't know how this will play in the long run, but if something goes wrong, i'd like to see some minor changes to other low tier units
"So I turned the lights off at night and practiced by myself"
nodq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Germany123 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-14 12:13:53
May 14 2010 12:04 GMT
#1315
On May 14 2010 20:29 ArdentZeal wrote:
to apply a little math.
early / midgame:

before patch --> one overlord every 8 roaches
after patch --> one overlord every 4 roaches

==> cost of 8 roaches is increased by 100 minerals and one larvae so 850m / 200g instead of 700m / 200g and 10 larvae instead of 9

a nerf for sure, but not as big as everyone makes us believe it is in early / midgame. I guess the real problem occurs somewhere lategame, in which building 150 roaches is no longer a viable possibility.

In my opinion, this is a step closer to get the ultra as a tank and not just roaches. Give the zerg their long-anticipated ultrabuff and we should be fine.



When do People stop doing this stupid calculations?! This makes absolutly no sense at all... whats the point if i have a 150 Supply Army and have to pump out some Overlords to get my 30 Roaches instead of 15... so i get faster to 200 supply which means i can not build any other Unit! Try to get this ppl, the fucking OL is not the point and the fucking 100 mins, every Zerg will have more than enough Mins in mid-late game. The Problem is... you have not that much Units as befor if you want to have the SAME amount of Roaches as befor the Patch.. thats the Points and nothing else.

Also the early Game... a Zergs only defense at all was to pump out fast roaches gainst stupid cheese proxy/canon rush stuff or whatever. Now you are cut in half on Roach Count, in early you dont have enough mins to pump out the OLs AND enough Roaches.

That means, either Zergs are spaming crawler much more than they already did or try to defend this stupid cheese stuff with zerglings (lol..) so at the End, it becomes stupid and does not make the Game more Fun at all in early.

Incoming much more stupid ZvZ matches, as they not already were very stupid lol.
Spawn moooaaaar Overloooaaaarddzzzz!
Silent_Tao
Profile Joined February 2006
Israel87 Posts
May 14 2010 12:09 GMT
#1316
Couple of thoughts after playing in patch 12

I'm a zerg player and honestly i'm not so sad about the roach change, i think it has inside a huge advantage for the zerg players in term of making zvz a bit more intresting. i was expirimenting in making mass speedlings with more success after the patch, and maybe we will start with the

roaches>>bangelings>>speedlings>>roaches dynamic more often in zvz then just mass roaches - at least in early game.

a lot of guys already meantioned that the financial change is not that big. and i'm not so afraid of 200/200 it's pretty rare situtation - and on 200/200 force i'll probably spend my money on diffrenet units then roaches.

waiting for the ultralisk buff though, even with it's 25 attack it's still ridicoulously weak/
life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery
nodq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Germany123 Posts
May 14 2010 12:15 GMT
#1317
On May 14 2010 21:09 Silent_Tao wrote:
Couple of thoughts after playing in patch 12

I'm a zerg player and honestly i'm not so sad about the roach change, i think it has inside a huge advantage for the zerg players in term of making zvz a bit more intresting. i was expirimenting in making mass speedlings with more success after the patch, and maybe we will start with the

roaches>>bangelings>>speedlings>>roaches dynamic more often in zvz then just mass roaches - at least in early game.

a lot of guys already meantioned that the financial change is not that big. and i'm not so afraid of 200/200 it's pretty rare situtation - and on 200/200 force i'll probably spend my money on diffrenet units then roaches.

waiting for the ultralisk buff though, even with it's 25 attack it's still ridicoulously weak/



It will result in a speed/baneling mostly unmicroable fights in ZvZ. Actually, ZvZ with just massing roaches was stupid but at least u need some micro to beat the other Zerg, with speedlings only in early its just stupid like shit. Bacause speedlings own Roaches now in early game.
Spawn moooaaaar Overloooaaaarddzzzz!
ZergOwaR
Profile Joined March 2010
Norway280 Posts
May 14 2010 12:23 GMT
#1318
i have this fun feeling that the ultra will suddenly get thrown in the wrong washer and get shrinked... just like the thor
dig dig dig dig dig dig die!
grits
Profile Joined May 2010
United Kingdom7 Posts
May 14 2010 12:23 GMT
#1319
On May 14 2010 21:02 Antisocialmunky wrote:
I'm a little miffed at the Thor change. I wish they just fixed the path finding instead of slowly unepicing all the units that used to be epic.


The patch notes said that it was technically a minor buff if anything? They did annoy me trying to navigate them through a well built base.
Liquid`Nazgul
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
22427 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-14 12:32:36
May 14 2010 12:25 GMT
#1320
This is not a big deal guys. Early game where this change does the most I haven't been roach rushed by a good Zerg in forever, mid-game where your roaches die as much as you make them you will only be spending 1-5 more minerals per roach more if you're losing units, and late-game this change is excellent where a 200/200 Zerg army was much stronger than a 200/200 Protoss one.

The effect of this change with exception of 200/200 scenarios is really going to be minimal.
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