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Accidents, GunZ: The Duel, and StarCraft II - Page 4

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
May 09 2010 17:54 GMT
#61
If it aint completely unstoppable, dont fix it. If it is completely unstoppable, give the players 3 months and it wont be completely unstoppable anymore, and go back to step one.
"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
Rodiel
Profile Joined August 2006
France573 Posts
May 09 2010 17:55 GMT
#62
wow, franzy game, fun to watch for a noob btw
ZenDeX
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Philippines2916 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-09 18:02:35
May 09 2010 18:00 GMT
#63
IMO Blizzard should have never done this:
Units can no longer be healed or repaired while in transports.

I think you have to time the heal/repair with the loading animation properly to pull this off. But no, Blizz fixed it.
Nub4ever
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Canada1981 Posts
May 09 2010 18:26 GMT
#64
Gunz is an awesome game I can SS and BF but thats about it not particularly good at aiming then again I played that before like SC so maybe I'l be better now.
Dota 3hard5me
Parnage
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States7414 Posts
May 09 2010 18:29 GMT
#65
I am kind of confused how anyone could seriously agree with this? The entire statement seems to be that Blizzard should have a buggy and exploitable engine for sc2 and then you throw up a FPS with a as people have stated in this thread a very buggy and exploitable engine.

That doesn't exactly sound like a good idea to me. I do understand what you are trying to get across however, I feel you just used a poor example that is trying to cover up the point that you feel SC2 isn't dynamic enough and things like Blink isn't good enough and that you feel a more faithful copy of Broodwar would of been the better solution. Am I somewhat on the mark?

Blink also is an amazing use of units. Individual unit blinking's to save the unit, blinking from main to main on Lost Temple, Scrap Station, blinking back after sniping a unit and taking nothing but shield damage all of that makes Blink a fun and dynamic ability. I am unsure why you even used Blink as an example because if anything it's one of the few "Look at that!' abilities in SC2 that even someone who's never seen the game can appreciate.

Ignoring all of this Blizzard makes changes off of what they collect not from the forums. Unless it's a game breaking bug or unit(larva not dieing on cancel) they wait to see how people react to it before they just fix it. Roaches, Immortals and the slow marauder ability all took how long before they nerfed them? They didn't listen to the tears of the forum they waited until they felt "yeah that's a tad too strong" and had the data to support it.

Please don't act like this isn't blizzards first walk in the world of programming a game. It's not. Thank you for pointing out this nifty game and it's video's shame it didn't work out better.
-orb- Fan. Live the Nal_rA dream. || Yordles are cool.
Nub4ever
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Canada1981 Posts
May 09 2010 18:36 GMT
#66
On May 10 2010 03:29 Parnage wrote:
I am kind of confused how anyone could seriously agree with this? The entire statement seems to be that Blizzard should have a buggy and exploitable engine for sc2 and then you throw up a FPS with a as people have stated in this thread a very buggy and exploitable engine.

That doesn't exactly sound like a good idea to me. I do understand what you are trying to get across however, I feel you just used a poor example that is trying to cover up the point that you feel SC2 isn't dynamic enough and things like Blink isn't good enough and that you feel a more faithful copy of Broodwar would of been the better solution. Am I somewhat on the mark?

Blink also is an amazing use of units. Individual unit blinking's to save the unit, blinking from main to main on Lost Temple, Scrap Station, blinking back after sniping a unit and taking nothing but shield damage all of that makes Blink a fun and dynamic ability. I am unsure why you even used Blink as an example because if anything it's one of the few "Look at that!' abilities in SC2 that even someone who's never seen the game can appreciate.

Ignoring all of this Blizzard makes changes off of what they collect not from the forums. Unless it's a game breaking bug or unit(larva not dieing on cancel) they wait to see how people react to it before they just fix it. Roaches, Immortals and the slow marauder ability all took how long before they nerfed them? They didn't listen to the tears of the forum they waited until they felt "yeah that's a tad too strong" and had the data to support it.

Please don't act like this isn't blizzards first walk in the world of programming a game. It's not. Thank you for pointing out this nifty game and it's video's shame it didn't work out better.


The last bit of the post

The moral of the story? Game producers don't know what it takes to produce a good, competitive game. An e-sport game. To complicate the matter, they get inaccurate feedback from the community. It seems very, very hard to make a good game "on purpose." It only happens by accident. With exploits. Like strafe-jumping in Quake, Korean style in GunZ, and all the things we've learned about the StarCraft engine over the years.

Deliberately programmed in stuff like "blink" simply isn't as amazing as discovered tricks like "muta stack."


I'm pretty sure it means that sometimes games are good due to bugs and them trying to make muta stack just doesn't turn out anywhere near as good as it was in the origional SC
Dota 3hard5me
LunarC
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States1186 Posts
May 09 2010 19:56 GMT
#67
Unlimited unit selection would break Muta stack.. but I agree with whomever said previously that Blizzard needs to tweak unit characteristics to make them more interesting and then balance them around micro, rather than numbers.
REEBUH!!!
RoarMan
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada745 Posts
May 09 2010 20:19 GMT
#68
On May 10 2010 03:29 Parnage wrote:
Please don't act like this isn't blizzards first walk in the world of programming a game. It's not. Thank you for pointing out this nifty game and it's video's shame it didn't work out better.

Please don't act so imba pro.

The OP states that most "balance" comes from the players themselves as they create new and unique ways to conquer the game.

BW being a very good example, for instances Dragoons being attack move did shit all, which is why pros will control the Dragoons individual at times to get the maximimum benefit.

I never read anywhere in the OP that Blizzard should release a sketchy, bug filled game on purpose for the benefit of people to come out with their own exploits, just that some exploits in games are use to benefit of competitive players. Nowhere in the post does it even demeanor Blizzard.

And individual Blinking is not nearly impressive as Hold Shotting with a stack of Mutas. You try.
All the pros got dat Ichie.
Fizban140
Profile Joined March 2010
Korea (South)129 Posts
May 10 2010 10:45 GMT
#69
Halo 3 is insanely popular and has no real glitches (flag tossing maybe, but not really helpful) that are hugely ingrained into the gameplay. The Call of Duty series is like that too.
PROJECTILE
Profile Joined April 2010
United States226 Posts
May 10 2010 13:59 GMT
#70
I like the example. Tribes is another series that was literally defined on bugs like skiing, making a game otherwise developed as a slow paced tactical team game into a game where every player moves around at 200 kph.
Fizban140
Profile Joined March 2010
Korea (South)129 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-10 14:35:47
May 10 2010 14:34 GMT
#71
How much of a bug was skiing in Tribes? The maps really seemed like they were designed to support it so some extent. I played it from the start but I really can't remember if skiing was suppose to be in or not, I think I picked it up my first day playing it.

This is kind of going in a circle, but at what point does a glitch become a feature? Obviously skiing supported the maps and game perfectly and still provided a balanced game (although Tribes 1 and Tribes Classic for T2 was pretty heavily favored for light offense, while T2 was a nice balance.).
Icx
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Belgium853 Posts
May 10 2010 14:44 GMT
#72
On May 10 2010 23:34 Fizban140 wrote:
This is kind of going in a circle, but at what point does a glitch become a feature?



When developers start implementing it as a feature of the game.

Look at what happened with quake, the strafejumping/bunnyhopping was originally just a bug, but it got accepted as being "standard", being in every quake game after it, even getting "improved" in Q4 with the sliding thing, other games such as painkiller/warsow also implementing.

Blizzard doesn't have to make a buggy engine just to hope that some things will break. But they could have taken a very close and good look at the sc1 engine and seen what good things it has done (such as the moving shot) and have implemented it.

(For the next one who posts, OMG it's a new game, new micro, new ways):

Starcraft 2 is the successor of starcraft 1, why take out things that has made starcraft1 the e-sports game it is today?
Why not take those few things that made the game so good, and reimplement them instead of making them easier?

I mean do you know what would have happened if ID software never added strafejumping again with the motto "it's a new game, youll find new stuff, learn to adapt", then Q3 would never have been the esports that it is/has been today.
Fizban140
Profile Joined March 2010
Korea (South)129 Posts
May 10 2010 14:52 GMT
#73
A lot of the micro that was required in SC1 was just moving your units around the map and buildings units. MBS has been added and units path much better. Bio terran required tons of micro just to move as a ball. Should they remove some of the new features to make the game more difficult to play?

s031720
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden383 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-10 15:22:00
May 10 2010 15:16 GMT
#74
We dont need bugs. We just need features that are hard to execute, not necessary to play competetively but will give an edge to the one who can execute them well enough, that actully feel worth while and not gimmicky; so that the top tier players can distinguish themselves, creating a learningcurve and thus a gaming hierarchy that means something, gives status and respect, but without scaring away casual gamers etc.

With the division system in place (or rather a system that would work better at distinguishing diffrent skilllevels) aswell as with the limitation of smurfing, much of this is already in place. The casual gamer should no longer be in danger of beeing dominated by someone much better utilizing techniques that is way beyond the casual players skilllevel. Left to implement are the actual features, but as stated, they can not be arbitrary, not gimmicky, not to much effort for to little gain, but not to much gain either, etc etc. In other words, meaningful MICRO.

Someone mentioned phoenixes and the new move-shoot mechanic as an exampel of how Blizzard listens; but to me its a blatant exampel of Blizzard NOT understanding what is needed to give the game depth. They are focusing on width, for economical reasons one would imagine, but if they want an esport with the lifespan of BW, they need to focus equally on depth aswell. Well see, im not giving up hope. Because I believe that Blizzard actually wants to achieve something more than just a cash-cow.
Just another noob
FieryBalrog
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States1381 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-10 16:03:40
May 10 2010 15:57 GMT
#75
While I like the glitches in Starcraft BW, not a single one was really game-changing except muta stacking, and that's not even really a glitch, just a feature of how the game groups units. A lot of glitches DID get fixed in BW because they were gamebreaking (flying drones, infinite minerals...). BW would have still been a fantastic game and not nearly much different if you removed Dragoon stupidity (so attack move worked just as well), or allowed vultures to moving shot with attack command instead of patrol command, or didn't allow probes and scvs to jump over minerals.

Also, this is a perfect example of a community not knowing much about making a great game, yet having massive confidence in their own opinions. You see it in every game with an old, "hardcore" fanbase.

I was listening to the Idle Thumbs podcast and Jake Rodkin, who's a game designer of adventure games, made this point brilliantly. That feedback (whether on the forums or whatever) from the dedicated community is usually a symptom. When the community complains about something and suggests some fix (usually the most unimaginative fix that panders directly to them), the game designer should treat this suggested fix as a symptom to be solved, not a cure to be implemented.

In other words the community is good at knowing something is wrong, but its terrible at fixing it.
I will eat you alive
AmstAff
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Germany949 Posts
May 10 2010 16:01 GMT
#76
On May 09 2010 22:54 craaaaack wrote:
Nice read, I fully agree.


YES SO RIGHT!!!

Blizzard dont get it, that more spells/spellcasting isnt the "micro" we want and need. we need things like patrol/hold micro to make the units more effective.
after 2 years i reached it = marine icon
ymirheim
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden300 Posts
May 10 2010 16:24 GMT
#77
On May 11 2010 01:01 AmstAff wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 09 2010 22:54 craaaaack wrote:
Nice read, I fully agree.


YES SO RIGHT!!!

Blizzard dont get it, that more spells/spellcasting isnt the "micro" we want and need. we need things like patrol/hold micro to make the units more effective.

There are a hell of a lot of people who claim to speak for the "we" in the starcraft 2 community.
The only thing you should feel when you shoot someone... is the recoil
laste
Profile Joined November 2008
Bulgaria242 Posts
May 10 2010 16:27 GMT
#78
You are wrong.

The game's success isn't due to the unique play style the glitches provide but in fact, their difficulty.I played GunZ for years and the more advanced moves(combination of moves) are OBSCENELY difficult to pull off even randomly when training, let alone in an actual fight. The game is in a really bad shape, it has major flaws but they can't really change or improve anything since the essence of the game is based on these glitches. The only thing that keeps it going is its solid community.

Difficulty: Thats what made GunZ fun and unique.

Its the reason I still enjoy playing quake3 like nothing else after 10 years - because I can log on to quakelive and occasionally get schooled by someone thats simply better than me. Theres a challenge involved that no features, graphics, ACHIEVEMENTS, or anything else can replace.

Its the reason Call of Duty12345678 sucks so much - the first time I entered the game I went on a 30 frag kill spree - the game is boring and based on luck almost entirely. Theres piles of other random content just to keep you busy but essentially, the game isn't all that challenging.

Its the reason why MMOs like Lineage2 are better than World of Warcaft (I feel like I'm gonna get torched for this one ). In L2, while being the absurd grindfest cheater heaven that it is, once you reach endgame you get to enjoy exciting pvp pretty much all of the time, giant alliance battles and never ending political conflicts. While in WoW, you just raid the same bosses over and over and over again just you can gear up for the next bosses that will arrive on the next patch/expand along with 10 new levels. Sure theres a million other things to do but I really feel those are there more to keep you occupied or are like prerequisite to raiding/whatever than actually to challenge you or to have fun with.

That being said I really fear SC2 is going the wrong way so far, from this point of view at the very least. Wouldn't it be awful if the final release of the game was just a dumbed down version of Broodwar with shiny new features/graphics/content? If I was blizzard I'd focus more on getting the challenge part into the game, rather than facebook chat intergration, this way it will take longer for people to master it. Because when you challenge people creativity and determination sparks in the best of them, leaving out the ones that aren't up for the challenge, and quality is produced. But if you rely on features, repetitive and easy gameplay the only thing you would be producing is zombies that generate $2 million for a few hours buying a virtual horse.
Everybody will be in bronze soon, because Tasteless will have all our ladder points.
LunarDestiny
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States4177 Posts
May 10 2010 16:32 GMT
#79
I used to play Gunz but I stop after my college ip banned their servers...

What the game taught me was you only need 1 sword and 2 shotguns to kick some serious butt.
keV.
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3214 Posts
May 10 2010 16:32 GMT
#80
GunZ was such a piece of shit game. Why is anyone even talking about it.
"brevity is the soul of wit" - William Shakesman
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