Accidents, GunZ: The Duel, and StarCraft II - Page 2

Fizban140

Korea (South)129 Posts

May 09 2010 14:57 GMT

#21

I don't really consider bunny hopping a glitch, more just a sprint since you can't really bunny hop like you would in Quake. I forgot about duckrunning, but the point is is that you can ignore all the glitches and still be an amazing player. With the possible exception of bunny hopping.

Tyrio

United States3248 Posts

May 09 2010 14:58 GMT

#22

I remember Gunz. The canceling technique was called "Butterflying" if I remember correctly, and basically dominated the matches if you ever got past level 10. Every round would consist of some 10 people furiously jumping and airdashing around wildly swinging swords and slashcanceling shotgun blasts. I left because it was too hard :p

A 1v1 between two expert butterflyers was incredible to watch tho.

nihoh

Australia978 Posts

May 09 2010 15:03 GMT

#23

@Fizban As with any other game in CS you need to know the game perfectly to have a chance at it.. It's just one of the things CS needs in addition to a host of other things..

Valve obviously considered bunnyhopping a glitch. From 1.3 to 1.6, they removed bunnyhopping.

It's back in Source, but you need a lot less feeling to do it in Source. Duckrunning is not possible to ignore at a high level of play in 1.6. most players don't break from duckrunning at all nowadays in the modern, 2010 CS, when it comes down to a clutch situation.

Bunnyhopping is a glitch in Quake that made it an amazing game. Bunnyhopping is a glitch in CS.. that got removed.

goswser

United States3548 Posts

May 09 2010 15:04 GMT

#24

Very nice read, I agree that tricks such as in this game and the starcraft engine make the game much more fast paced and interesting. Try imagining brood war without any of the exploits and micro tricks, and you will see a boring game.

Antisocialmunky

United States5913 Posts

May 09 2010 15:08 GMT

#25

On May 10 2010 00:04 Newguy wrote:
Very nice read, I agree that tricks such as in this game and the starcraft engine make the game much more fast paced and interesting. Try imagining brood war without any of the exploits and micro tricks, and you will see SCII.

I kid, I kid.

Anyway, does anyone have any more examples? I can only think of fighting games and FPS. Not too many RTSus.

Erucious

Norway393 Posts

May 09 2010 15:10 GMT

#26

very interesting read - can really see similarities in what made GunZ a great game and that what made SC1 a great game

lolreaper

301 Posts

May 09 2010 15:11 GMT

#27

are there any decent multiplayer rts except scbw and wc3 ? ;d

stet_tcl

Greece319 Posts

May 09 2010 15:15 GMT

#28

Well said, I agree completely.
This is actually my big fear concerning sc2. No matter what tricks they try to put into the game, only a game with incredible depth in terms of mechanics can really be competitive.

Before the release of the beta I was actutally certain that Blizzard would hide similar tricks in sc2's engine that would be discovered at some point. After seeing them handle the various balance issues and reading their interviews etc, I'm almost convinced they have no idea why Starcraft became what it is or how to make a similar game

And all that talk about Gunz made me nostalgic... It is such a fun game to play.

Snowfield

1289 Posts

May 09 2010 15:25 GMT

#29

Yeah, SHAME ON YOU BLIZZARD FOR MAKING THE GAME TOO BUG FREE!

Its a bit ironic though. It's not easy (read: you have to be lucky) to get good bugs that make the game fun and challenging.

Where is the line between a bug thats abusable to such an extend where you have to remove it, and a good bug though? do you balance the game around said bugs?

there is alot of things that could go very very wrong.

How should game developers go on by making their game intentionally very hard for the pros, without making it too unintuitive for the newcomers?

What the RTS community really wants, seems to be some sort of devil child born from RTS and Fighting games, where you make units, and actually have to do "moves" with them (not abilities, but actual tricks) to be fully used.

But where does such moves become too hard?

Does game developers simply have to get lucky to make a good game?

kangur

29 Posts

May 09 2010 15:34 GMT

#30

Nice read. I find this difference interesting:

Strafing was first a bug, now it is a crucial part of the game, which each quake sequel allowing (demanding if you want to be any good) its use.

What happened to muta micro in sc2?

Lightwip

United States5497 Posts

May 09 2010 15:35 GMT

#31

Quite an interesting story, and it does have some truth to it. I think this is what you can learn from it:
+ Show Spoiler +

Give people what they ask for, and chances are they won't be too impressed.

nihoh

Australia978 Posts

May 09 2010 15:35 GMT

#32

WC3 had no mentionable bugs and it is still a success. (Animation cancelling is present across all engines - in both Sc2 and Wc3 as well as SCBW)

JitnikoVi

Russian Federation396 Posts

May 09 2010 15:37 GMT

#33

i play both games and i agree with u entirely

Backpack

United States1776 Posts

May 09 2010 15:44 GMT

#34

I do agree with you, but I hope people aren't counting out things like this happening in SC2. Keep in mind that we've only had the game for a few months. Who know's what little tricks we will discover in the future?

Lightwip

United States5497 Posts

May 09 2010 15:47 GMT

#35

On May 10 2010 00:44 Backpack wrote:
I do agree with you, but I hope people aren't counting out things like this happening in SC2. Keep in mind that we've only had the game for a few months. Who know's what little tricks we will discover in the future?

Well, we'd be looking now because it's not '98, where there aren't even that many RTS's out or too much interest in the game at its release. IMO, SC2 is being given too much of a chance simply because it has the word "StarCraft" in its name. Not to mention the engine isn't very bug-friendly.

NeonFlare

Finland1307 Posts

May 09 2010 15:47 GMT

#36

Nice read, overall it's bit difficult to distinct wheter the bug is game breaking or gives more depth allowing "technique".

I used to play Gunz from international to ijji, community went horrible over time, but the game had really high potential. Too bad MAIET never fully put it into use and gave it little to none support after initial release.

Back in day before shared cooldown on shotgun shots, just swapping resulted into shotguns spam that is nowadays comaparable to "reload shot" and lots of other stuff got minor "fixes" but players found workarounds.

UdderChaos

United Kingdom707 Posts

May 09 2010 15:48 GMT

#37

I just think it's more to do with the immaturity of the games design world, rather than making a generalized statement which basically reads "you can't make e-sports intentionally competitive, only accidental bugs can do that." This is just not true. It's a design choice not to try and theory craft any complex micro into the game, that's clearly what blizzard have decided. Take muta for example, you could have a spell on them that boosts their speed for a short amount of time in a abstract manner, like acceleration on turning or something really odd like that. This could then in fact allow them to be microed in some way requiring high APM. But blizzard chose to keep it simple with abilities like blink, that are easy for casual demographics to understand, combined with a lack of knowledge of the competitive e-sports scene by their design team. The likely-hood of someone who actually understands and follows any esports, also being the head designer of a major gaming company is pretty small, and that's probably why we haven't seen a gaming company produce a game yet that's designed as an esport and works brilliantly as one. I mean why do you think blizzard is listening to the sc community? because they know they don't understand esports on any where near the same level as the collective that is TL. Very few companies when developing games listen to communities, i mean if you take any big casual game like the sims, the designers will pretty much do what the hell they want for the next expansions, they don't release a beta and patch in slowly new dogs in to seee how the 8 year old girls react to the balance changes! Because they know the fans aren't really going to tell them anything useful that they don't already know, they instead just observe reactions to different features by their demographics to decide what to do in the next game/version. The point is i don't think that making an esports thats awesome is beyond the capability of any humans, and only by random chance can it happen.

Vexx

United States462 Posts

May 09 2010 15:56 GMT

#38

Sadly, I read through the whole OP wondering what exactly it had to do with starcraft. I was thrown a few morsels in the last 2 lines. I think the OP is stupid. For every "great" game that succeeded because of a "glitch", you can pull out 20 awesome games that did it right.

Anyways, the only thing that does concern me of SC2 is that it is pretty boring with the lack of... anything. There's little tactical consideration in the game and I do agree that OP abilities bring magic to the game.

Lightwip

United States5497 Posts

May 09 2010 16:05 GMT

#39

On May 10 2010 00:56 Vexx wrote:
Sadly, I read through the whole OP wondering what exactly it had to do with starcraft. I was thrown a few morsels in the last 2 lines. I think the OP is stupid. For every "great" game that succeeded because of a "glitch", you can pull out 20 awesome games that did it right.

Anyways, the only thing that does concern me of SC2 is that it is pretty boring with the lack of... anything. There's little tactical consideration in the game and I do agree that OP abilities bring magic to the game.

Care to name a few games as such with the success of BW? I'd be hard-pressed to find 20, or even a handful.

But yeah, I think SC2 is pretty much lacking any substance that would be needed to make it a success.

Blyadischa

419 Posts

May 09 2010 16:08 GMT

#40

GunZ was bad because it was plagued by a shitty netcode (peer to peer style) that required you to lead your targets based on ping (for example if you ping 100 to someone you shoot about 1.5 bodies ahead of where you think they are going to be), hacks that still go on today, from blatant hacks to hacks that disconnect you, to what fucked the game up now (underclocking your CPU) that somehow makes you not need to lead and you're model skips everywhere making you not being able to be hit, and finally premium items, that gave you a significant advantage (healing items that healed 2x more than regular items, and clothing that gave you much more HP/AP than regular items), which many people were not willing to pay for (the healing items were 6$ a month, and that was too much for bad game). The developers took extremely long to patch or ban whoever used whatever hacks, and placed a huge emphasis on premium items to make a couple more dollars rather than a better, more balanced game.

Overall, if you lost you had a plethora of excuses to deploy, and that created a terrible community of immature idiots. (go on gunzfactor.com/forums if you want to witness it).

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