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On April 26 2010 07:10 Kyo Yuy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 07:08 Paladia wrote:On April 26 2010 07:05 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 07:00 Paladia wrote:On April 26 2010 06:34 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 05:45 Paladia wrote:On April 26 2010 03:35 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 00:30 Paladia wrote:On April 26 2010 00:28 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 00:13 Paladia wrote:
[quote]You call it a "fact", so please state the source of said fact.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=121072Releasing a patch that doesn't nerf protoss: Patches have different aims. Sometimes they're based on balancing race matchups, but oftentimes not. For example, the ZvZ matchup was stale because they were only making 3 units. The reasons for the patch are that statistically speaking, protoss is winning a lot. ZvT and ZvP have only 1% win-loss differential. However PvT is at around a 55% win rate. Unless you think Blizzard HQ is an unreliable source. If that's the case then I don't know what to say. That is from several patches ago. You claimed it was the current stats, which is entirely inaccurate. Dressing up stats from several patches ago as current is highly questionable. It was 2 patches ago, in patch 8. All that's changed since then for Terran is the Concussive Shell cost and research time has changed to 50/50 and 60 seconds. There were no changes for Protoss or Terran between patch 9 and patch 10. Protoss players were complaining marauders were OP DURING patch 8. Also the statistics were released LAST WEEK (April 19). It wasn't like these results were from months or even weeks ago. Blizzard doesn't release win statistics on a daily basis. I didn't claim anything about current stats, the poster I quoted said really dont understand how they think TvP is in toss's favor.... To which I said, "Blizzard had statistics that Protoss had a 55% win rate over Terran." If you are saying that the FEW DAYS since patch 9/10 has been out is enough for Blizzard to think that TvP is suddenly back in Terran's favor, then you're asking for too much too soon. People who are complaining about the change in Marauder research time felt that Blizzard was unjustified and that Terran was OP. Blizzard made the change when Protoss had a 55% win rate in PvT (on April 19, when Blizzard stated the win rate was 55%). It's way too soon to say that Terran is OP NOW, and people who are complaining that Terran was still OP in patch 8 need to realize those statistics were FROM patch 8. "To which I said, "Blizzard had statistics that Protoss had a 55% win rate over Terran.""Now you are even pulling off fake quotes to further your cause. Quite pointless since anyone can just check what you wrote. What you really wrote was: " It has something to do with the fact that Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran overall on the US Servers.". Has, is present tense, and thus means currently, which is entirely inaccurate since the interview where those numbers were taken was several patches ago. And since then Terran has been nothing but buffed while Protoss has suffered a severe nerf, which without a doubt gives a favor to Terran compared to before (how much remains to be seen though). Just don't dress up lies as facts to further your cause in the future, as in worst case someone may actually believe what you say. Since everything I say is lies, why don't you demonstrate with clear evidence why Protoss vs. Terran is Terran favored as of patch 10? I have no idea if PvT is P favored since the latest patch. Likely neither do you. And since then Terran has been nothing but buffed while Protoss has suffered a severe nerf, which without a doubt gives a favor to Terran compared to before (how much remains to be seen though). Without a doubt, right? Prove it. Huh? Did you even read the patch notes? The thing that happened in them was that Marauders were buffed and Immortals were nerfed. That gives an advantage to Terran compared to before, the question is just how much. Prove it. How does it give an advantage to Terran? How does altering build times and research costs give Terran an advantage? You seem to be confident that Terran will gain something out of it.
Balance Changes
* TERRAN
o Marauder
+ Concussive Shells research cost decreased from 100/100 80 seconds to 50/50 60 seconds.
Advantage compared to before.
* PROTOSS
o Immortal
+ Build time increased from 40 to 55.
Disadvantage compared to before.
The patch notes are the proof of the advantage compared to before. A decreased research cost means you can spend more money on an army. An increased build time cost means you will have less army at x time. There is no middle ground here, those were solid buffs and nerfs, if you can't even see that buffs gives you an advantage compared to before there is no point in discussing anything further with you.
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On April 26 2010 07:00 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 06:34 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 05:45 Paladia wrote:On April 26 2010 03:35 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 00:30 Paladia wrote:On April 26 2010 00:28 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 00:13 Paladia wrote:On April 25 2010 23:54 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 25 2010 23:43 OHtRUe wrote:
Terran now rapes prottoss everyway. Early game you can be super aggressive again with 2 rax marauder with concussive and if you survive his initial push you win pretty much. You also can do 4 rax marine FE which is ridicolously hard to stop as toss. really dont understand how they think TvP is in toss's favor.... It has something to do with the fact that Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran overall on the US Servers. You call it a "fact", so please state the source of said fact. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=121072Releasing a patch that doesn't nerf protoss: Patches have different aims. Sometimes they're based on balancing race matchups, but oftentimes not. For example, the ZvZ matchup was stale because they were only making 3 units. The reasons for the patch are that statistically speaking, protoss is winning a lot. ZvT and ZvP have only 1% win-loss differential. However PvT is at around a 55% win rate. Unless you think Blizzard HQ is an unreliable source. If that's the case then I don't know what to say. That is from several patches ago. You claimed it was the current stats, which is entirely inaccurate. Dressing up stats from several patches ago as current is highly questionable. It was 2 patches ago, in patch 8. All that's changed since then for Terran is the Concussive Shell cost and research time has changed to 50/50 and 60 seconds. There were no changes for Protoss or Terran between patch 9 and patch 10. Protoss players were complaining marauders were OP DURING patch 8. Also the statistics were released LAST WEEK (April 19). It wasn't like these results were from months or even weeks ago. Blizzard doesn't release win statistics on a daily basis. I didn't claim anything about current stats, the poster I quoted said really dont understand how they think TvP is in toss's favor.... To which I said, "Blizzard had statistics that Protoss had a 55% win rate over Terran." If you are saying that the FEW DAYS since patch 9/10 has been out is enough for Blizzard to think that TvP is suddenly back in Terran's favor, then you're asking for too much too soon. People who are complaining about the change in Marauder research time felt that Blizzard was unjustified and that Terran was OP. Blizzard made the change when Protoss had a 55% win rate in PvT (on April 19, when Blizzard stated the win rate was 55%). It's way too soon to say that Terran is OP NOW, and people who are complaining that Terran was still OP in patch 8 need to realize those statistics were FROM patch 8. "To which I said, "Blizzard had statistics that Protoss had a 55% win rate over Terran.""Now you are even pulling off fake quotes to further your cause. Quite pointless since anyone can just check what you wrote. What you really wrote was: " It has something to do with the fact that Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran overall on the US Servers.". Has, is present tense, and thus means currently, which is entirely inaccurate since the interview where those numbers were taken was several patches ago. And since then Terran has been nothing but buffed while Protoss has suffered a severe nerf, which without a doubt gives a favor to Terran compared to before (how much remains to be seen though). Just don't dress up lies as facts to further your cause in the future, as in worst case someone may actually believe what you say. Since everything I say is lies, why don't you demonstrate with clear evidence why Protoss vs. Terran is Terran favored as of patch 10? I have no idea if PvT is P or T favored since the latest patch. Likely neither do you.
Actually Paladia said that "without a doubt gives a favor to Terran COMPARED TO BEFORE" which means he is not saying that Terran is favored over Protoss but Terran got more advantage compared to before.
Anyway guys. Nobody knows which one is favored after the lastest patch yet, coz its just patched. So Lets stop arguing and just wait for the next result coming from Blizzard.
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On April 26 2010 07:28 key_of_life wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 07:00 Paladia wrote:On April 26 2010 06:34 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 05:45 Paladia wrote:On April 26 2010 03:35 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 00:30 Paladia wrote:On April 26 2010 00:28 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 00:13 Paladia wrote:On April 25 2010 23:54 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 25 2010 23:43 OHtRUe wrote:
Terran now rapes prottoss everyway. Early game you can be super aggressive again with 2 rax marauder with concussive and if you survive his initial push you win pretty much. You also can do 4 rax marine FE which is ridicolously hard to stop as toss. really dont understand how they think TvP is in toss's favor.... It has something to do with the fact that Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran overall on the US Servers. You call it a "fact", so please state the source of said fact. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=121072Releasing a patch that doesn't nerf protoss: Patches have different aims. Sometimes they're based on balancing race matchups, but oftentimes not. For example, the ZvZ matchup was stale because they were only making 3 units. The reasons for the patch are that statistically speaking, protoss is winning a lot. ZvT and ZvP have only 1% win-loss differential. However PvT is at around a 55% win rate. Unless you think Blizzard HQ is an unreliable source. If that's the case then I don't know what to say. That is from several patches ago. You claimed it was the current stats, which is entirely inaccurate. Dressing up stats from several patches ago as current is highly questionable. It was 2 patches ago, in patch 8. All that's changed since then for Terran is the Concussive Shell cost and research time has changed to 50/50 and 60 seconds. There were no changes for Protoss or Terran between patch 9 and patch 10. Protoss players were complaining marauders were OP DURING patch 8. Also the statistics were released LAST WEEK (April 19). It wasn't like these results were from months or even weeks ago. Blizzard doesn't release win statistics on a daily basis. I didn't claim anything about current stats, the poster I quoted said really dont understand how they think TvP is in toss's favor.... To which I said, "Blizzard had statistics that Protoss had a 55% win rate over Terran." If you are saying that the FEW DAYS since patch 9/10 has been out is enough for Blizzard to think that TvP is suddenly back in Terran's favor, then you're asking for too much too soon. People who are complaining about the change in Marauder research time felt that Blizzard was unjustified and that Terran was OP. Blizzard made the change when Protoss had a 55% win rate in PvT (on April 19, when Blizzard stated the win rate was 55%). It's way too soon to say that Terran is OP NOW, and people who are complaining that Terran was still OP in patch 8 need to realize those statistics were FROM patch 8. "To which I said, "Blizzard had statistics that Protoss had a 55% win rate over Terran.""Now you are even pulling off fake quotes to further your cause. Quite pointless since anyone can just check what you wrote. What you really wrote was: " It has something to do with the fact that Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran overall on the US Servers.". Has, is present tense, and thus means currently, which is entirely inaccurate since the interview where those numbers were taken was several patches ago. And since then Terran has been nothing but buffed while Protoss has suffered a severe nerf, which without a doubt gives a favor to Terran compared to before (how much remains to be seen though). Just don't dress up lies as facts to further your cause in the future, as in worst case someone may actually believe what you say. Since everything I say is lies, why don't you demonstrate with clear evidence why Protoss vs. Terran is Terran favored as of patch 10? I have no idea if PvT is P or T favored since the latest patch. Likely neither do you. Actually Paladia said that "without a doubt gives a favor to Terran COMPARED TO BEFORE" which means he is not saying that Terran is favored over Protoss but Terran got more advantage compared to before. Anyway guys. Nobody knows which one is favored after the lastest patch yet, coz its just patched. So Lets stop arguing and just wait for the next result coming from Blizzard.
Fine. I don't really want to discuss this any further, as this has become nothing more than an argument in semantics.
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Paladia, I'm pretty sure the 55% winrate is still possible, since Marauders LOSING Concussive Shell base is a more severe nerf than adding to the Immortal build time.
Terrans and Protoss have both been nerfed since those statistics.
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On April 26 2010 05:39 Synwave wrote:
Lengthy analysis is data.
Thanks for the translation/link! Interesting read.
Actually, processed data is information.
While I don't say that analyses are useless (because they certainly aren't) the sample size and the quality of the actual data that goes into them is usually restricted to hunches, speculations and anecdotal evidence. There are of course exceptions (such as that thread where someone had been analyzing all mineral fields on all maps and the relationship between patch placement and MULE use) which provide great insights which hopefully reach Blizzard one way or another but in general I'd say how people play the beta will have a more noticeable positive effect on the final game than what people write about it.
Just my two cents though. Interesting interview.
edit: Re-reading my post I thought I should add that I don't oppose analyses as such. Analyses about the game have a value in themselves simply due to the discussions they spark and the thoughts they provoke. I just think that for actual game improvement putting those thoughts into action in-game will be more effective.
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On April 26 2010 07:41 TheTuna wrote:
Paladia, I'm pretty sure the 55% winrate is still possible, since Marauders LOSING Concussive Shell base is a more severe nerf than adding to the Immortal build time.
Terrans and Protoss have both been nerfed since those statistics.
You are mistaken. Those numbers were from patch 8, since then Marauders (and Terran in general) have only been buffed whilst Protoss have been nerfed (Immortal build time).
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On April 26 2010 19:22 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 07:41 TheTuna wrote:
Paladia, I'm pretty sure the 55% winrate is still possible, since Marauders LOSING Concussive Shell base is a more severe nerf than adding to the Immortal build time.
Terrans and Protoss have both been nerfed since those statistics. You are mistaken. Those numbers were from patch 8, since then Marauders (and Terran in general) have only been buffed whilst Protoss have been nerfed (Immortal build time).
You're making massive assumptions that the matchup had reached its resting point, and that any changes to Terran or nerfs to protoss had a significant impact.
It IS possible that the matchup is still 55% in favor of protoss. It's also possible that it's 55% in favor of terrans.
It's not reasonable to think that buffs to terran and nerfs to protoss would cause terran to have a worse win rate, but that doesn't mean that the win rates couldn't have moved in either direction just because of metagame evolution.
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Good stuff. I will tell you one thing, if their approach to trying to even out the TvP matchup has ANYTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH MAKING MARAUDERS BETTER, I quit.
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I think its awesome that there are people on both sides of the matchup claiming the matchup is impossible. What a great game!
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On May 01 2010 00:17 Rice wrote:
I think its awesome that there are people on both sides of the matchup claiming the matchup is impossible. What a great game!
Just in case you were referring to my post, I play terran and think it's broken in favor of protoss, I just think marauders are a retarded unit.
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I don't actually think that Siegetanks are almost useless, so far I see them defining TvT and sometimes beeing used in TvZ and TvP. Right now I love them in TvP (Platinum but only 1200 yet as I didn't ladder much)
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EPT
