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+ Show Spoiler [Fomos] +StarCraft II Developer David Kim:
"TvP is the hardest to balance"![[image loading]](http://www.fomos.kr/board/interview/1272006452_1.jpg) - People in Korea are saying Zerg is too strong ▲ Looking at the top players, there has never been a time where the win ratio differed more than 6:4. Zerg players are definitely winning more matches though. There are a lot of balance work to be done, and it takes a long time, but we will try our best. - Tanks are almost useless unlike in SC1 ▲ Tanks were units that had to be created in every game in SC1. In SC2, the immortals hard counter the tanks, but we have no plans to make it into a unit that needs to be used in every match. - Every time a new strategy is made, the patches come and make them unusable. ▲ That depends on the situation. We patched the roaches because they were limiting variability in strategy, and we're trying to discourage marine-SCV cheese rushes during beta. We're hoping to see many different strategies during the beta, and we're just trying different things to collect data. - How complicated do you think the game will be at the multiplayer level when the game is released? ▲ We're trying to make it easy for the new players while making the game more sophisticated for the top players. The new players will be encouraged to use basic units, and the top level gamers will be encouraged to use units to do complicated maneuvers. - Are you disappointed that SC1 progamers cannot play the beta? ▲ I want to receive their feedback, but I understand their situation. We're trying to balance it the best way possible with the feedbacks from current beta users. - Do you think there is a possibilities that the balances will be broken when the game is released and the top level gamers such as progamers play? ▲ I think it is possible, but we're trying to make it as balanced as possible right now. We'll of course have to make patches if there are severe problems with the balance. - What kind of place do you want SC2 to take in the world of ESPORTS? ▲ SC1 succeeded as an esport in Korea. We hope that SC2 will succeed as an esport in Korea and all over the world. + Show Spoiler [Original Article] +- 현재 한국에서는 저그가 너무 강력하다는 의견이 많은데
▲ 통계나 정상급 선수들의 플레이를 봤을 때 매치업 별로 6:4의 비율이 넘어서는 경우는 없었다. 저그가 다른 종족에 비해서 다소 우위에 있는 것은 사실이다. 밸런스를 위해 해결해야 할 문제도 많고, 밸런스를 맞추기 위한 작업에 걸리는 시간이 생각보다 오래 걸리긴 하지만 최선을 다해서 노력하고 있다.
- 공성전차의 경우 전작과 달리 거의 무용지물 수준인데
▲ 공성전차의 경우 전작인 스타크래프트에서는 매 경기 생산해야 하는 유닛이었다. 그런데 스타크래프트2에서는 불멸자의 강화보호막을 비롯해 공성전차에게 강력한 카운터 펀치를 날릴 수 있기 때문인 것 같다. 하지만 전작처럼 매 경기 사용되는 유닛으로 만들 필요는 없다고 생각하고 그런 유닛으로 만들 계획은 없다.
- 새로운 전략이 나올 경우 거의 매번 하향 패치로 인해 사용하지 못하게 되고 있는데
▲ 경우에 따라 조금 다르다. 예를 들면 바퀴의 경우 다양한 게임 플레이를 제한하기 때문에 할 수 없이 패치를 한 것이고, 마린-SCV 치즈 러시와 같은 경우는 베타 테스트 기간이기 때문에 제한한 것이다. 베타 테스트에서는 최대한 다양한 전략이 나오길 기대하고 있고, 보다 많은 정보를 얻기 위한 조치라고 이해해주시길 바란다.
- 출시 시점에서 상성 관계는 얼마나 복잡할 것으로 예상하는지
▲ 처음 스타크래프트2를 체험하는 유저들에게는 쉽게 게임에 접할 수 있도록 하되 상위 레벨의 게이머들에게는 복잡한 상성 관계를 이해하도록 게임을 만들고 있다.
이에 따라 게임을 처음 접하거나 익숙하지 않은 분들은 일반적인 유닛을 사용하도록 유도하고, 상위 레벨의 게이머들은 특정 유닛을 필요한 경우 적재적소에 활용할 수 있도록 상성을 맞출 계획이다.
- 스타크래프트 프로게이머가 베타 테스트에 참여하지 못해 아쉽진 않은지
▲ 현재 스타크래프트 프로게이머로 활동하는 분들의 피드백을 받으면 좋겠지만 사정상 여의치 못한 것으로 알고 있다. 때문에 현재 베타 테스트에 참가한 사람들의 의견을 토대로 밸런스를 맞추는데 노력하고 있다.
- 출시 시점 이후 프로게이머를 포함한 상위 레벨의 게이머들로 인해 밸런스가 급격히 무너질 가능성에 대한 생각은
▲ 그럴 가능성도 있을 수 있다고 생각하고 있다. 하지만 지금으로서는 최선을 다해서 밸런스를 맞추기 위한 작업을 하고 있고, 그렇게 되기 위해 노력하고 있다. 만약 출시 이후에 밸런스에 관련된 중대한 문제가 생긴다면 당연히 수정을 해야 할 것이다.
- 스타크래프트2가 e스포츠로서 어떻게 자리 잡기를 희망하는지
▲ 스타크래프트는 한국에서 e스포츠로 굉장히 성공했다. 스타크래프트2는 한국은 물론 전세계적인 e스포츠로 자리잡기를 희망한다. Source: Fomos
+ Show Spoiler [YGosu] +StarCraft II developer David Kim's interview![[image loading]](http://data.ygosu.com/editor/attach/20100423/GNXrAo4n6I23EHLCYPWb.jpg) Q: The balance feedback is probably different for Korea and for USA, are you taking the Korean feedback more seriously as a Korean developer? A. There are 4 people who are making the balance changes according the the platinum ladder users in each region. There are a lot more platinum users in Korea. If you're 100th in any other server, you're probably 500th in the Korean server. Instead of focusing just in Korea in terms of balance, we're matching it to the top players in each region. Since there are a lot of players in Korea, we're focusing more here, but we're also listening to users from other regions. Q. There seems to be a lot of Korean developers in the HQ, how many are there? A. I don't know the exact number. There's seems to be quite a few. I eat lunch with them occasionally, but I don't meet them personally. I sometimes play WoW with the ones that I'm close with. Q. People in Korea say that Zerg is too strong. What do you think about the balance? A. Looking at the platinum players, there has never been a time a single race had more than 6:4 winning ratio against another race. I don't think the balance is bad, but Zerg players are winning a little more. You can't balance a game overnight. The gamers want to patches to come quickly, but it takes a long time to test everything. We're trying our best. Q. I heard that you had a hard time balancing banelings. How is it going? A. ZvZ usually ends up being roach vs roach fight, but after patch 8, people are starting to use banelings. I'm happy that the matchup is more diverse now. It was originally very strong against Terran, and it wasn't used widely against Protoss, but I don't think it's a problem since it's being used in two out of the three matchups. The spine crawler + mutalisk combo is too strong against Protoss right now. We're trying to solve this problem. It's hard to balance Terran and Protoss. It's hard for a Terran to beat a Protoss, and we still can't fix that. That's the matchup we're focusing on right now. There will be a patch soon once we decide on a direction to balance that matchup. Q. Which race is played the most? A. Terran, Protoss, then Zerg. Q. People say tanks are weak, and almost useless. A. Tanks were one of the most important units in SC1. However, in terms of design, I don't think it's an important unit. It's strong against Zerg, but it's not good against Protoss. Immortals, void rays, and the gravitron beam from phoenix counter them. We don't want to make it an absolutely crucial unit like in SC1. Q. How are your work hours? A. I work at least 60 hours a week lately. It's been busy since beta started, so I work on weekends too. Q. What do you think about changing the Stats of units depending on the matchup being played? A. That would make things too complicated. Q. Every time there is a new strategy in the beta, it gets nerfed. Are you trying to stop new strategies from being created? A. The roaches were being used a lot, but since ZvZ became roach vs roach, we nerfed it to make the play more diverse. We patched cheese rushes since it's beta. We might have responded differently if the Game was already released. The point of beta is to gather data. 50% of the TvP involved cheese rushes, so we had to patch it to get the data we need. Q. The counters are a lot more complicated than SC1, will you make it even more complicated? A. Our goal is to make it easy for the new players and have complicated counters for the top players to exploit. Marauders, stalkers, zerglings, and hydralisks are units that you can make no matter what your opponent is doing. These become the base units while units like void rays and banelings make the Game more complicated. The new players will create the base units while slowly expanding their unit variety. Q. When you make balance changes, do you take account what the developers think? A. A lot of developers are platinum players. I never fell below top 10 overall. We try to keep our skill level in mind when giving suggestions while balancing. Q. What race do you like, and does this affect your decision to balance at all? A. I try to be as fair as possible. Most of the balance team play random. Also, we try to play the race that people think is the weak race. Q. What is SC2 in terms of ESPORTS? A. Like ESPORTS succeeded in Korea, I want SC2 to succeed worldwide. Q. How many times a Day do you talk about balance? A. Since our team members are always near each other, we just do our own things until someone comes up with an idea. We start the talk about balance on the spot. I think we talk for hours every day since beta started. Q. It's been a while since a battle report was released A. That was to show the game before beta started. We don't plan on making another since beta started. + Show Spoiler [Original Article] +
Q: 종족 밸런스에 대한 의견이 한국과 미국이 다를텐데, 한국인 개발자로써 한국의 반응을 조금 더 중점을 두는가?
A: 현재 4명이 밸런스를 맞추고 있고, 전 세계 각 지역별로 플래티넘 래더 유저들에 맞춰 밸런스를 조절하고 있다. 하지만, 한국에는 플래티넘 유저가 다른 지역에 비해 많다. 미국에서 100위 정도의 실력이면 한국에서는 500위 정도의 실력이다.
밸런스는 한국에 맞추기 보다는 전 세계 각 지역별 상위 플레이어들에 맞춘다. 한국의 플레이어가 많기 때문에 포커스가 좀 더 가는 편이지만, 한국 유저들의 밸런스에만 맞춰서 진행하지 않는다.
Q: 본사에 한국인 개발자들이 많은 듯 하다. 본사에는 몇 명이나 근무하고 있는가?
A: 정확한 수치는 모르다. 몇 십명 정도 있는 듯 하다. 가끔 점심을 먹지만, 특별하게 주기적으로 만나지는 않는다. 친한 분들끼리는 같이 스타크래프트나 월드 오브 워크래프트를 하는 경우도 있다.
Q: 한국에서는 저그가 상당히 강하다는 의견들이 상당히 많다. 세 종족의 밸런스를 어떻게 보고 있나?
A: 통계적으로 플래티넘 유저들의 플레이를 보았을 경우 지금까지 6:4 비율을 넘어가는 종족간 대결은 없었다. 현재 밸런스가 나쁘지는 않은 듯 하지만, 저그의 경우 약간 우위에 있기 때문에 고치려고 하고 있다.
밸런스 작업이라는 것이 바로바로 되는게 아니다. 게이머들은 즉각적으로 패치를 해주기를 원하지만, 번역 문제라던지 밸런스 문제를 찾아 해결하고 테스트 하는 과정이 긴편이다. 즉각적으로 패치를 하지 못하는 부분은 아쉽지만, 최선을 다하고 있다.
Q: 맹독충 밸런스 조절 때문에 고생했다고 들었다. 최근에 진행 중인 밸런스 부분은 어떤 것인가?
A: 저저전은 보통 바퀴 싸움으로만 흘러가는 양상이지만, 지난 패치8 이후 저저전에 맹독충이 많이 보이고 있다. 양상이 바뀐 듯 하여 만족스럽다. 맹독충의 경우 테란전에는 원래 강력했고, 프로토스에서는 많이 쓰이지 않았지만, 세 종족중 두 종족(저그, 테란)에서 강력한 유닛으로 쓰이고 있는 상황이기 때문에 문제되지 않는다고 생각한다. 현재는 가시촉수와 뮤탈리스트의 조합이 프로토스 전에서 너무 강력한 상황이다. 이 문제를 풀려고 일을 하고 있다. 테란과 프로토스의 밸런스가 가장 까다롭다. 통계상으로도 테란이 프로토스를 이기기 힘들었는데, 아직도 고쳐지지 않고 있다. 현재 가장 노력을 기울이고 있는 종족전 중 하나이다. 조만간 밸런스 방향이 확정이 되면 패치될 예정이다.
Q: 베타 통계상으로 어느 종족의 플레이가 가장 많은가?
A: 테란, 프로토스, 저그 순서이다.
Q: 공성 전차가 전작보다 약하다는 평가가 있다. 쓸모 없다는 표현까지 나올 정도인데 알고 있는가?
A: 공성 전차는 스타크래프트1에서 중요한 유닛 중 하나였다. 하지만, 디자인 상으로는 공성 전차는 중요한 유닛은 아니라고 생각한다. 저그 상대로는 강력한 상황이지만, 프로토스 상대로는 카운터 유닛인 불멸자가 있고, 공허 포격기도 있다. 또한, 불사조의 중력자 광선 능력도 있다. 카운터 상황으로 인해 전작처럼 필수적인 유닛으로 만들 생각은 없다.
Q: 근무 시간은 어떠한가?
A: 요즘에는 일주일에 최소 60 시간 정도 근무하고 있다. 베타가 시작한 이후에는 바쁘다보니 주말에도 일하고 있다.
Q: 밸런스를 조절을 위해 종족에 따라 다른 스탯을 가지도록 만들 생각은 없는가?
A: 그럴 생각은 없다. 한 유닛이 여러개의 스탯을 가지면 게임이 복잡해진다.
Q: 최근 베타에서 새로운 전략만 나오면 칼질만 당한다. 새로운 전략 개발을 막는 거 아닌가?
A: 저그 바퀴의 경우는 많이 사용되는 유닛이었지만, 너무 바퀴 대 바퀴 싸움으로만 저저전이 진행된 관계로 게임 의도와 맞지 않아 다양한 플레이를 장려하기 위해 어쩔 수 없이 너프시켰다. 치즈 러쉬 같은 경우는 베타였기 때문에 패치를 한 부분이다. 출시 이후에 이러한 전략이 나타났다면 다르게 대처했을지도 모른다. 베타테스트를 진행하는 목적은 다양한 정보를 수집하기 위함이다. 계속해서 프테전에서 치즈 러쉬로만 50% 이상 게임이 나오는 상황이 전개되어, 전략이 단순화되면 베타 본연의 목적을 달성할 수 없었기 때문에 패치를 했다.
Q: 전작보다 상성 관계가 복잡하다. 출시시에는 상성 관계를 더 복잡하게 할 것인지, 조금 더 단순화 할 것인지 궁금하다.
A: 우리의 목표는 처음 접하는 게이머 분들께는 쉽게 게임에 적응할 수 있도록 해주고, 그 뒤에 복잡한 상성 관계를 생성하고자 한다. 불곰이나 추적자, 저글링, 히드라 경우는 상대가 무얼 하던지 이 유닛을 많이 뽑으면 어느 정도는 게임을 전개해 나갈 수 있는 유닛들이다. 이 유닛들이 베이스가 되고 공허 포격기, 맹독충 같은 특별한 유닛들이 생산되면서 게임의 재미를 더 늘릴 수 있다. 익숙하지 않은 유저들은 평범하게 생산을 하고, 천천히 배우면서 깊숙히 모든 유닛을 활용하면 된다.
Q: 밸런스를 조절할 때 개발자의 실력도 뒷받침 되는가? 개발자 스스로의 의견은 어느 정도의 비중을 두나?
A: 개발자들도 플래티넘에서 플레이 하는 분들이 많다. 나도 전체 순위에서 10위 이하로 떨어지는 경우가 없었다. 물론, 토론 할 때는 개발자 개개인의 실력에 따라 피드백을 주고자 노력한다.
Q: 선호하는 종족은 무엇이고, 선호 종족이 있다면 밸런스 조절할 때 좀 더 신경이 쓰이지 않는지?
A: 가급적이면 공평하게 밸런스를 조절하고자 노력한다. 그리고 밸런스 팀원 대부분이 랜덤 플레이어이다. 그리고, 오히려 약하다고 평가 받는 종족에서 많이 플레이 하려고 한다.
Q: e스포츠 관점에서 스타크래프트2란?
A: e스포츠가 한국에서 성공했던만큼, 스타크래프트2는 전 세계적으로 활성화가 되었으면 좋겠다.
Q: 밸런스 토론은 하루에 몇 차례 진행되는가?
A: 우리 팀은 비슷한 장소에 같이 있다보니, 따로 회의 시간을 내어 토론한다기 보다는 서로 할일을 하다가 누군가 문제를 제기하면 그 자리에서 바로 토론에 들어간다. 베타가 시작한 이후에는 하루에 몇 시간씩은 토론을 하는 듯 하다.
Q: 전투 보고서가 뜸한데 언제 또 다시 나오나?
A: 전투 보고서는 베타를 시작하기 전에 보여주기 위한 목적이었다. 현재는 베타가 시작했기 때문에 만들 계획이 없다.
Source: YGosu
NOTE: There might be random capital letters because I accidentally TLPD-ized after I finished 
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United States7166 Posts
interesting stuff, good interview, thanks
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Interesting.
I wish they would of asked about Marauders.
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Marshall Islands104 Posts
Awesome interview. Thanks for the translation.
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Good read. More and more zergs are starting to use the crawler + muta combo he talks about against me on ladder, its really really hard to deal with when playing a macro style as protoss T_T
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I'm really curious about the "queen rushes" that caused the queen movement speed nerf. At least (unlike Dustin Browder) David Kim seems to know what he's talking about in terms of balance and how the races play out competitively.
And yes, the Asian server is MUCH more competitive than the US server.
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On April 25 2010 16:15 Ftrunkz wrote:
Good read. More and more zergs are starting to use the crawler + muta combo he talks about against me on ladder, its really really hard to deal with when playing a macro style as protoss T_T
I hope they do this by increasing Protoss's ability to combat air rather than nerfing whatever seems strong at the moment...
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I like how half the questions asked aren't really questions but are more like stating an observation. Must be something lost in translation.
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On April 25 2010 16:16 Saracen wrote:
I'm really curious about the "queen rushes" that caused the queen movement speed nerf. At least (unlike Dustin Browder) David Kim seems to know what he's talking about in terms of balance and how the races play out competitively.
And yes, the Asian server is MUCH more competitive than the US server.
The "queen rushes" were all-in type attacks that abused the queen's healing ability on, say roaches. It made the push stronger, but it was really an all-in type move since you're totally wrecked if it doesn't succeed
That or he could be talking about the proxy tumor/spinecrawlers that have been oh so popular lately.
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At least the guy's a pretty damn good player.
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Awesome interview.
Some of the responses were quite good and informative. I certainly have confidence for David Kim and the rest of blizzard to make a totally awesome game. And the recent interviews with blizzard staff seem to be pointing in the right direction.
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This interview is really reassuring. I was really getting the vibe they were taking balance suggestions and complaints from the majority of bad players seriously. I'm glad they sound fairly aware of the difference in skill level in between the different communities..
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Terrans have a hard time beating Protoss? HUH?!
Otherwise, a great interview!
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It's reassuring that they acknowledge issues and discuss why certain changes were made. Like he says, balance changes can't happen over night. It's good that they have some direction, though.
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On April 25 2010 16:08 l10f wrote:
- Tanks are almost useless unlike in SC1
▲ Tanks were units that had to be created in every game in SC1. In SC2, the immortals hard counter the tanks, but we have no plans to make it into a unit that needs to be used in every match.
Someone show this man some SK Terran please!
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I got kind of an aggressive vibe from those questions. Maybe it's the translation, but it seems like the interviewer was ticked off hehe.
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Thanks for the translations!
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I'm surprised that the developers are plat players, but really good to know.
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Nice Interview. Thx for the translation.
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Q: The balance feedback is probably different for Korea and for USA, are you taking the Korean feedback more seriously as a Korean developer?
... absolutely horrible question. I'm assuming a korean interviewer on Ygosu asked this, this question could make korean people look overly nationalistic and racist.
Q. Every time there is a new strategy in the beta, it gets nerfed. Are you trying to stop new strategies from being created?
I apologize if I'm mistaken, but isn't this question ridiculously obvious? one of the REASONS they become new strategies is BECAUSE they are overpowered, which obviously then become nerfed in the next patch. Duh?
Q. People say tanks are weak, and almost useless.
A. Tanks were one of the most important units in SC1. However, in terms of design, I don't think it's an important unit. It's strong against Zerg, but it's not good against Protoss. Immortals, void rays, and the gravitron beam from phoenix counter them. We don't want to make it an absolutely crucial unit like in SC1.
I'm really unhappy it's not the other way around. My worthless two cents: It would have been nice if they made tanks good against protoss, and not so good against zerg. It just seems that though they tried to change SC2, it still holds several crucial and fundamental elements form SC1 (due to the preservation of several crucial units), and tanks were the backbone of the vP mu. Obviously, in vZ, there was SK Terran, and tanks were mainly needed to combat lurkers. With no lurkers in SC2...
Anyway, I hope they get the TvP thing sorted out soon... storm seems to destroy Terran so easily, especially since they can't go mech anymore. Great to hear from the SC2 semi-bonjwa himself!
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On April 25 2010 16:32 asdfTT123 wrote:
Terrans have a hard time beating Protoss? HUH?!
Otherwise, a great interview!
I guarantee you, do the most standard fucking 2 warpgate 1 robo, 2nd immortal along with stalkers and 1-2 sentry timing push and you will win like 90% of your games. Standard T openings can't build an army fast enough to defend it unless you throw like 3 bunkers at your ramp/choke which protoss can just back off, macro up, eventually get two collossi, a few more immortals after grabbing an expo (since T can't push out) and you will win.
The only reason P thinks that T rape them is because if you get to the point where you allow T to grab a 2nd and 3rd base, they can get like 6-8 racks with 2 port medivacs, at which point of course they can build a large marauder force, but i'll bet you that TvP games that are under 20-25 minutes long are like an 80% win rate for P
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"It's hard for a Terran to beat a Protoss, and we still can't fix that. That's the matchup we're focusing on right now. "
WAT? I'm getting raped by T 80% of my games. It's so sad, it's not even close. Do they want me to just fucking alt+qq when the game starts?!
The EU server is infested with terrans. Hope this changes somehow
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I want a question of the sort: Zerg has fewer units and only one caster compare to the other two races . Do you plan on adding an other zerg unit before the game is released or are you going to save them for the expansions ....
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On April 25 2010 16:52 Wings wrote:
... absolutely horrible question. I'm assuming a korean interviewer on Ygosu asked this, this question could make korean people look overly nationalistic and racist.
I think it's just an unspoken truth that Koreans look down on foreigners when it comes to competitive gaming. I mean, come on, when tossgirl lost to idra, she cried in embarrassment.
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On April 25 2010 17:06 Latham wrote:
"It's hard for a Terran to beat a Protoss, and we still can't fix that. That's the matchup we're focusing on right now. "
WAT? I'm getting raped by T 80% of my games. It's so sad, it's not even close. Do they want me to just fucking alt+qq when the game starts?!
The EU server is infested with terrans. Hope this changes somehow
Use High Templars with Observers to spot any flanking Ghosts. Makes life very, very difficult for the Terran player.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
Wow, thanks for this l10f!
Massive props to David Kim, 60 hours a week is pretty tough to be working on this game, and I'm glad him and the rest of the developers/balancers are holding out well. After reading this, I'm way more assured that SCII will have very fine-tuned balance by the end.
I wish that they would've asked/commented on the end of the Beta, because from random rumors I hear it's ending mid-May/end of May? That doesn't seem like a very long time...
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On April 25 2010 17:06 Latham wrote:
"It's hard for a Terran to beat a Protoss, and we still can't fix that. That's the matchup we're focusing on right now. "
WAT? I'm getting raped by T 80% of my games. It's so sad, it's not even close. Do they want me to just fucking alt+qq when the game starts?!
The EU server is infested with terrans. Hope this changes somehow
TvP balance is pretty fucked up right now.
In the early game, Protoss is clearly dominant as a by-product of chronoboost. Protoss's inflated econ in the early stages of the game allows for very powerful timing pushes that can easily kill the Terran if not defended properly. However, once it gets into mid-late game the matchup becomes more balanced and maybe even slanted towards Terran favor due to the power and massability of Marauders. In addition, once Terran gets the economy to support more ghosts, the matchup becomes much harder for Protoss.
The most difficult part of balancing TvP is to nerf Prtooss early game or buff Terran early game without drastically influence the mid-late game, which is pretty well balanced. They also have to take into consideration the vZ matchups, as well.
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Protoss are too strong vs Terran at this moment, and yet they are too weak against the zerg air? Seems like Zerg and Protoss will be tampered with for the worse in the coming patches, although I guess that comes to no surprise for the Protoss players.
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It's good to hear they're looking into TvP right now. I'm finding it near impossible at the moment even with the immortal build time change. It's so difficult to win vs a competent protoss.
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On April 25 2010 17:17 RatherGood wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 16:52 Wings wrote:
... absolutely horrible question. I'm assuming a korean interviewer on Ygosu asked this, this question could make korean people look overly nationalistic and racist. when tossgirl lost to idra, she cried in embarrassment.
is there a vid of this??
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United States4126 Posts
Q. Which race is played the most?
A. Terran, Protoss, then Zerg.
That's interesting :O I wonder which server he's talking about?
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must be hard to discuss balance for hours o.o thanks for translations
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On April 25 2010 17:01 ZlaSHeR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 16:32 asdfTT123 wrote:
Terrans have a hard time beating Protoss? HUH?!
Otherwise, a great interview! I guarantee you, do the most standard fucking 2 warpgate 1 robo, 2nd immortal along with stalkers and 1-2 sentry timing push and you will win like 90% of your games. Standard T openings can't build an army fast enough to defend it unless you throw like 3 bunkers at your ramp/choke which protoss can just back off, macro up, eventually get two collossi, a few more immortals after grabbing an expo (since T can't push out) and you will win.
This is one of the things that makes balancing the game via a short beta so hard.
People refuse to fucking adjust. It pisses me off when I see a terran doing a poor FE against my early aggression. I've been winning PvT real fast because it's handed to me on a silver plate - not by the balance team but by the players.
Looking at BW it can take months for players to adjust to a new strategy. What happens now is that people get a week to adjust and if they don't then the balance team adjusts it for them.
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Terran pretty much has two options against Protoss, a 4 rax rax FE or reaper harass. Anything else is a loss for the Terran, and the reaper harass is usually a loss unless you are a total bad ass with reaper micro.
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- Tanks are almost useless unlike in SC1
▲ Tanks were units that had to be created in every game in SC1. In SC2, the immortals hard counter the tanks, but we have no plans to make it into a unit that needs to be used in every match.
Marauders are used in every match =/ ..
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Thanks for the translation.
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United States47024 Posts
On April 25 2010 20:01 AyJay wrote:Show nested quote +- Tanks are almost useless unlike in SC1
▲ Tanks were units that had to be created in every game in SC1. In SC2, the immortals hard counter the tanks, but we have no plans to make it into a unit that needs to be used in every match. Marauders are used in every match =/ ..
You misinterpreted that answer, I think. They're not against a unit being used in every matchup. What they don't want is a unit with the profile of the tank (which was pretty much always intended as a support unit) to be a catch-all unit.
The marauder was designed to be a catch-all unit, so naturally, they don't have that problem.
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On April 25 2010 17:47 grieve wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 17:17 RatherGood wrote:On April 25 2010 16:52 Wings wrote:
... absolutely horrible question. I'm assuming a korean interviewer on Ygosu asked this, this question could make korean people look overly nationalistic and racist. when tossgirl lost to idra, she cried in embarrassment. is there a vid of this??
From http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=108832
"Any moment in your progaming career that you enjoyed and that you regretted or wanna take back?
- I enjoyed beating male progamers at prelims. ^^ A regretful moment was when I lost to non-Korean players at ESWC. I felt good after beating Chinese players, but after losing to (T)IdrA, I cried a lot (though I don't usually cry; maybe the national pride got me.). It felt horrible."
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Koreans are a little racist like that, they look down on foreigners in a way. I know not all of them are like that but there is a feeling you get that they think they are better.
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Hm.
If the korean platinum statistics is what Blizzard is going to base it's buffs and nerfs on...
then zerg are going to get nerfed pretty hard, pretty soon?
in which case. I'm going to be REALLY curious to see how many people will continue to use zerg in the western zones, when zerg are ALREADY being spectacularly owned much more than any other species. (According to that HQ Blizzard cast Day(9) did).
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The thing is they ARE better. There is no arguing that. I wouldn't say it's being racist at all, purely national pride.
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On April 25 2010 20:45 Izslove wrote:
The thing is they ARE better. There is no arguing that. I wouldn't say it's being racist at all, purely national pride.
You mean they are better at Brood War? I suppose it would be like a Canadian football team beating an NFL team.
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On April 25 2010 20:37 Fizban140 wrote:
Koreans are a little racist like that, they look down on foreigners in a way. I know not all of them are like that but there is a feeling you get that they think they are better.
It's also important to add that it's mostly western foreigners, I seriously doubt that any Korean looks down on Japanese or Chinese. And if so, they need some history lessons.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Q. People say tanks are weak, and almost useless.
A. Tanks were one of the most important units in SC1. However, in terms of design, I don't think it's an important unit. It's strong against Zerg, but it's not good against Protoss. Immortals, void rays, and the gravitron beam from phoenix counter them. We don't want to make it an absolutely crucial unit like in SC1.
Fine, but could you maybe cost it appropriately then? Making the tank weaker (due to a plethora of counters) and making it cost more doesn't make sense
On April 25 2010 21:04 araged wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 20:37 Fizban140 wrote:
Koreans are a little racist like that, they look down on foreigners in a way. I know not all of them are like that but there is a feeling you get that they think they are better. It's also important to add that it's mostly western foreigners, I seriously doubt that any Korean looks down on Japanese or Chinese. And if so, they need some history lessons.
.... In my experience, China/Korea/Japan can do a pretty fine job of hating eachother. A certain "garage nation" flamewar between Korea/China after one of the IEF tournaments (or was it that other one whose name ecapes me, eitherway, Korea/China event) comes to mind 
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On April 25 2010 21:04 araged wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 20:37 Fizban140 wrote:
Koreans are a little racist like that, they look down on foreigners in a way. I know not all of them are like that but there is a feeling you get that they think they are better. It's also important to add that it's mostly western foreigners, I seriously doubt that any Korean looks down on Japanese or Chinese. And if so, they need some history lessons.
....lol
There is a lot of anti racial sentiment among the three races, ESPECIALLY involving people from older generations.
Keep in mind the Japanese occupation of China and also the fact that the tension between Japan and China goes back thousands of years. Of course, not ALL Koreans/Japanese/Chinese are racist, but there is a significant portion of each that exhibits a lot of nationalism, elitism, and racial hatred.
Savior was absolutely pissed beyond all hell when he lost to PJ at WCG 07.
It is very hard to balance SCII though. Especially since having balanced statistics NOW does not guarantee that they will be balanced later. For all we know, over time a T/Z/P player might develop a strat that makes one match up really lopsided and it might stay that way for a very long time.
I trust Blizzard is doing its best and overall I think they are doing a much better job than most RTS developers.
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On April 25 2010 21:04 araged wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 20:37 Fizban140 wrote:
Koreans are a little racist like that, they look down on foreigners in a way. I know not all of them are like that but there is a feeling you get that they think they are better. It's also important to add that it's mostly western foreigners, I seriously doubt that any Korean looks down on Japanese or Chinese. And if so, they need some history lessons.
I don't understand what you're trying to imply here? So because they think they are better than foreigners in a game and they have pride in that they should go back though the history books for what reason?
Seriously what are some of you 12 or something. It was in no way shape or form a question asked to invoke racism.
Edit: I wonder if people will stop playing just 1 race in tournys and simply start counter picking what race they think fares better for each MU.
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Wow, I love how aggressive these questions sound. Koreans going "YOU'RE ON OUR TURF NOW". Or maybe it's just the translation.
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hmm, it seems balance stuff are korean dependant...
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Terran now rapes prottoss everyway. Early game you can be super aggressive again with 2 rax marauder with concussive and if you survive his initial push you win pretty much. You also can do 4 rax marine FE which is ridicolously hard to stop as toss. really dont understand how they think TvP is in toss's favor....
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On April 25 2010 23:43 OHtRUe wrote:
Terran now rapes prottoss everyway. Early game you can be super aggressive again with 2 rax marauder with concussive and if you survive his initial push you win pretty much. You also can do 4 rax marine FE which is ridicolously hard to stop as toss. really dont understand how they think TvP is in toss's favor....
It has something to do with the fact that Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran overall on the US Servers. It's quite strange how many people claim that Terran rapes Protoss and yet Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran.
Do Terrans like to completely rape Protoss players with their "overpowered mass marauders" and then quit the game afterward to intentionally give Protoss inflated wins? Maybe it's all a big beta conspiracy.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
On April 25 2010 16:36 QibingZero wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 16:08 l10f wrote:
- Tanks are almost useless unlike in SC1
▲ Tanks were units that had to be created in every game in SC1. In SC2, the immortals hard counter the tanks, but we have no plans to make it into a unit that needs to be used in every match. Someone show this man some SK Terran please!
yea terrans that are like lololool i'll go sk terran and whne all else fails i'll just split the map and make 20000 tanks ! D:
haha ok i dont really have much other input to sc2
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I make tanks every single game they are not useless D:
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Thanks a bunch for the translation. They really should buff the tank, my favorite unit since brood war came out but atm its preeetty bad.
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thanks for the translation
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On April 25 2010 23:54 Kyo Yuy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 23:43 OHtRUe wrote:
Terran now rapes prottoss everyway. Early game you can be super aggressive again with 2 rax marauder with concussive and if you survive his initial push you win pretty much. You also can do 4 rax marine FE which is ridicolously hard to stop as toss. really dont understand how they think TvP is in toss's favor.... It has something to do with the fact that Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran overall on the US Servers. You call it a "fact", so please state the source of said fact.
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On April 26 2010 00:13 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 23:54 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 25 2010 23:43 OHtRUe wrote:
Terran now rapes prottoss everyway. Early game you can be super aggressive again with 2 rax marauder with concussive and if you survive his initial push you win pretty much. You also can do 4 rax marine FE which is ridicolously hard to stop as toss. really dont understand how they think TvP is in toss's favor.... It has something to do with the fact that Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran overall on the US Servers. You call it a "fact", so please state the source of said fact.
Forget exactly where, but a month or so ago someone at Blizzard was quoted as saying Protoss had a much higher winrate than T or Z. Or it might have been a study on TL. Either way, he's correct that Toss do win more.
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Thanks for the translation, nice interview. Refreshing to see a dev that knows the game.
Interesting that terran is the most popular race, despite being the weakest(alledgedly) .
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On April 26 2010 00:13 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 23:54 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 25 2010 23:43 OHtRUe wrote:
Terran now rapes prottoss everyway. Early game you can be super aggressive again with 2 rax marauder with concussive and if you survive his initial push you win pretty much. You also can do 4 rax marine FE which is ridicolously hard to stop as toss. really dont understand how they think TvP is in toss's favor.... It has something to do with the fact that Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran overall on the US Servers. You call it a "fact", so please state the source of said fact.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=121072
Releasing a patch that doesn't nerf protoss: Patches have different aims. Sometimes they're based on balancing race matchups, but oftentimes not. For example, the ZvZ matchup was stale because they were only making 3 units. The reasons for the patch are that statistically speaking, protoss is winning a lot. ZvT and ZvP have only 1% win-loss differential. However PvT is at around a 55% win rate.
Unless you think Blizzard HQ is an unreliable source. If that's the case then I don't know what to say.
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On April 26 2010 00:14 TheTuna wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 00:13 Paladia wrote:On April 25 2010 23:54 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 25 2010 23:43 OHtRUe wrote:
Terran now rapes prottoss everyway. Early game you can be super aggressive again with 2 rax marauder with concussive and if you survive his initial push you win pretty much. You also can do 4 rax marine FE which is ridicolously hard to stop as toss. really dont understand how they think TvP is in toss's favor.... It has something to do with the fact that Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran overall on the US Servers. You call it a "fact", so please state the source of said fact. Forget exactly where, but a month or so ago someone at Blizzard was quoted as saying Protoss had a much higher winrate than T or Z. Or it might have been a study on TL. Either way, he's correct that Toss do win more.
I'm fairly certain that is another lie. I find it most unlikely that Blizzard would say that a race has a "much higher winrate".
Please, if you stomach to call something a fact, do provide said fact.
However, I would very much like to see where this "fact" of Protoss having (currently) a 55% win rate against Terran is from.
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On April 26 2010 00:28 Kyo Yuy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 00:13 Paladia wrote:On April 25 2010 23:54 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 25 2010 23:43 OHtRUe wrote:
Terran now rapes prottoss everyway. Early game you can be super aggressive again with 2 rax marauder with concussive and if you survive his initial push you win pretty much. You also can do 4 rax marine FE which is ridicolously hard to stop as toss. really dont understand how they think TvP is in toss's favor.... It has something to do with the fact that Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran overall on the US Servers. You call it a "fact", so please state the source of said fact. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=121072Show nested quote +Releasing a patch that doesn't nerf protoss: Patches have different aims. Sometimes they're based on balancing race matchups, but oftentimes not. For example, the ZvZ matchup was stale because they were only making 3 units. The reasons for the patch are that statistically speaking, protoss is winning a lot. ZvT and ZvP have only 1% win-loss differential. However PvT is at around a 55% win rate. Unless you think Blizzard HQ is an unreliable source. If that's the case then I don't know what to say.
That is from several patches ago. You claimed it was the current stats, which is entirely inaccurate. Dressing up stats from several patches ago as current is highly questionable.
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well, if they're saying it's still a problem, it's still a problem. why are you being difficult, do you think blizzard is lying or something?
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On April 25 2010 21:04 araged wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 20:37 Fizban140 wrote:
Koreans are a little racist like that, they look down on foreigners in a way. I know not all of them are like that but there is a feeling you get that they think they are better. It's also important to add that it's mostly western foreigners, I seriously doubt that any Korean looks down on Japanese or Chinese. And if so, they need some history lessons.
nice trollin skillz, you got 3 responses within the same page
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"Korean Interviews of Dav…"
I almost fall out of my chair
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Nice interview, too bad he's biased towards his own people 
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On April 26 2010 00:37 ilikestarcrafttoo wrote:
well, if they're saying it's still a problem, it's still a problem. why are you being difficult, do you think blizzard is lying or something?
The problem I have is with people spurting out lies and dressing them up as facts in order to further their argument (in most cases to get their own race buffed or other races nerfed).
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nice interview, gj trnaslating. nice reading
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Great interview, thanks alot for the translation!
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Interesting read, thanks.
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anyone knows how longer the beta will be?
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On April 25 2010 16:32 asdfTT123 wrote:
Terrans have a hard time beating Protoss? HUH?!
Otherwise, a great interview!
They do, it's just people being HURRR and going "omg marauder counter to everything nerf terran" when they've never actually played the matchup the other way around.
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I really dont like the idea behind balancing based on race win statistics. They are looking at it onesided. For instance, say most players see protoss as too complicated, and dont play them. You're going to have fewer noobs playing protoss, and more people who actually know the game. Im just using protoss as an example, it could go for any race.
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haha so funny interviews, love koreans
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Its because some terrans still dont know how to stop immortal push and it's a fool proof toss strategy to do in gold-copper leauge. Seriously 4 rax marine is pretty much hard countering the push and marauder pressure still rapes b4 toss can get warp gates or immortal. I think toss will only be overpowered if they find a way to FE against terran and then you can possibly cry imba. Stim completely rapes Toss b4 they can get 2+ collossus or storm and marauders are still ridicolous. The only thing that Toss can do against marauders right now in mid game is hope he suprises the Terran with a shit load of chargelots, but really i think that right now once terran tries to incorpate hellions more theres really nothing that toss can do.
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On April 26 2010 01:42 BDF92 wrote:
I really dont like the idea behind balancing based on race win statistics. They are looking at it onesided. For instance, say most players see protoss as too complicated, and dont play them. You're going to have fewer noobs playing protoss, and more people who actually know the game. Im just using protoss as an example, it could go for any race.
How else would they do it when all races are so different.. There is no formula for this..
Definition of balance is when both players have equal chance and opportunities of winning.
Storm was nerfed because it was strong against marines which were widely used at that time..
So what happens when players change their strategies to not use small fragile units and everybody learns to spread their army.. I think lower tier infestor might be better than ht right now.
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On April 26 2010 01:53 iounas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 01:42 BDF92 wrote:
I really dont like the idea behind balancing based on race win statistics. They are looking at it onesided. For instance, say most players see protoss as too complicated, and dont play them. You're going to have fewer noobs playing protoss, and more people who actually know the game. Im just using protoss as an example, it could go for any race. How else would they do it when all races are so different.. There is no formula for this.. Definition of balance is when both players have equal chance and opportunities of winning.
On Balance, Starcraft, and Philosophy
I recommend this thread.
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Interesting read, thanks for translating
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Thanks for the links and translation. I'd just like to add that I think people in general are taking balance changes in the Beta too seriously. After all it IS a beta, just as David says the main goal for Blizzard (and on the whole any developer) in a beta is to simply gather data about the game, and once a large enough stockpile has been made they can they take a month or so, make a massive list of changes, and launch the game. And as we all are aware balance takes long after the launch of most games to really be achieved. In short we should take everything done the beta with a grain of salt, as I'm sure those of us who played the WarCraft 3 Frozen Throne know all to well - the game can and will change drastically by launch.
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I don't know about the most users being Terran, than Protoss, than Zerg. I face Terran like 20% of the time and zerg and toss the other 80% split. Maybe there are more terrans in the lower leagues, since noobs seem to like terran?
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great interview
so david kim resurfaces! ^^
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On April 26 2010 02:29 Pape wrote:
I don't know about the most users being Terran, than Protoss, than Zerg. I face Terran like 20% of the time and zerg and toss the other 80% split. Maybe there are more terrans in the lower leagues, since noobs seem to like terran?
Well I assumed this takes into account the US, EU, and Korean Servers... So if you are on US and there are more Z and P than T, on EU there might be more T than Z and P...
As well, the split might be something like 35% T, 33% P, 32% Z not a huge difference, but one none the less.
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On April 25 2010 16:46 Jyvblamo wrote:
I got kind of an aggressive vibe from those questions. Maybe it's the translation, but it seems like the interviewer was ticked off hehe.
exactly what I thought, lol.
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Nice thanks, interesting read 
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On April 26 2010 00:30 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 00:28 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 00:13 Paladia wrote:On April 25 2010 23:54 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 25 2010 23:43 OHtRUe wrote:
Terran now rapes prottoss everyway. Early game you can be super aggressive again with 2 rax marauder with concussive and if you survive his initial push you win pretty much. You also can do 4 rax marine FE which is ridicolously hard to stop as toss. really dont understand how they think TvP is in toss's favor.... It has something to do with the fact that Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran overall on the US Servers. You call it a "fact", so please state the source of said fact. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=121072Releasing a patch that doesn't nerf protoss: Patches have different aims. Sometimes they're based on balancing race matchups, but oftentimes not. For example, the ZvZ matchup was stale because they were only making 3 units. The reasons for the patch are that statistically speaking, protoss is winning a lot. ZvT and ZvP have only 1% win-loss differential. However PvT is at around a 55% win rate. Unless you think Blizzard HQ is an unreliable source. If that's the case then I don't know what to say. That is from several patches ago. You claimed it was the current stats, which is entirely inaccurate. Dressing up stats from several patches ago as current is highly questionable.
Terrans haven't really been buffed in regards to Protoss since that interview, if i recall correctly. Marauders LOST concussive shells as base, and all Protoss took was a hit to immortal build time and a slight reworking of Warp Rays.
So I really doubt that much has changed, champ, and DK's interview proves this. Let's relax with the passive-aggressiveness, please.
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On April 26 2010 00:30 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 00:28 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 00:13 Paladia wrote:On April 25 2010 23:54 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 25 2010 23:43 OHtRUe wrote:
Terran now rapes prottoss everyway. Early game you can be super aggressive again with 2 rax marauder with concussive and if you survive his initial push you win pretty much. You also can do 4 rax marine FE which is ridicolously hard to stop as toss. really dont understand how they think TvP is in toss's favor.... It has something to do with the fact that Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran overall on the US Servers. You call it a "fact", so please state the source of said fact. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=121072Releasing a patch that doesn't nerf protoss: Patches have different aims. Sometimes they're based on balancing race matchups, but oftentimes not. For example, the ZvZ matchup was stale because they were only making 3 units. The reasons for the patch are that statistically speaking, protoss is winning a lot. ZvT and ZvP have only 1% win-loss differential. However PvT is at around a 55% win rate. Unless you think Blizzard HQ is an unreliable source. If that's the case then I don't know what to say. That is from several patches ago. You claimed it was the current stats, which is entirely inaccurate. Dressing up stats from several patches ago as current is highly questionable.
It was 2 patches ago, in patch 8. All that's changed since then for Terran is the Concussive Shell cost and research time has changed to 50/50 and 60 seconds.
There were no changes for Protoss or Terran between patch 9 and patch 10.
Protoss players were complaining marauders were OP DURING patch 8. Also the statistics were released LAST WEEK (April 19). It wasn't like these results were from months or even weeks ago.
Blizzard doesn't release win statistics on a daily basis. I didn't claim anything about current stats, the poster I quoted said
really dont understand how they think TvP is in toss's favor....
To which I said, "Blizzard had statistics that Protoss had a 55% win rate over Terran." If you are saying that the FEW DAYS since patch 9/10 has been out is enough for Blizzard to think that TvP is suddenly back in Terran's favor, then you're asking for too much too soon.
People who are complaining about the change in Marauder research time felt that Blizzard was unjustified and that Terran was OP. Blizzard made the change when Protoss had a 55% win rate in PvT (on April 19, when Blizzard stated the win rate was 55%).
It's way too soon to say that Terran is OP NOW, and people who are complaining that Terran was still OP in patch 8 need to realize those statistics were FROM patch 8.
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The point of beta is to gather data.
I found this the most important part of the whole interview. In the midst of legions of beta-testers writing lengthy analyses about which unit needs a nerf and why it's good to read that Blizzard is very down to earth about what the beta is really all about. Collecting lots and lots of data on the game, data which is certain to be of tremendous value in finalized game.
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Lengthy analysis is data.
Thanks for the translation/link! Interesting read.
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On April 26 2010 03:35 Kyo Yuy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 00:30 Paladia wrote:On April 26 2010 00:28 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 00:13 Paladia wrote:On April 25 2010 23:54 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 25 2010 23:43 OHtRUe wrote:
Terran now rapes prottoss everyway. Early game you can be super aggressive again with 2 rax marauder with concussive and if you survive his initial push you win pretty much. You also can do 4 rax marine FE which is ridicolously hard to stop as toss. really dont understand how they think TvP is in toss's favor.... It has something to do with the fact that Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran overall on the US Servers. You call it a "fact", so please state the source of said fact. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=121072Releasing a patch that doesn't nerf protoss: Patches have different aims. Sometimes they're based on balancing race matchups, but oftentimes not. For example, the ZvZ matchup was stale because they were only making 3 units. The reasons for the patch are that statistically speaking, protoss is winning a lot. ZvT and ZvP have only 1% win-loss differential. However PvT is at around a 55% win rate. Unless you think Blizzard HQ is an unreliable source. If that's the case then I don't know what to say. That is from several patches ago. You claimed it was the current stats, which is entirely inaccurate. Dressing up stats from several patches ago as current is highly questionable. It was 2 patches ago, in patch 8. All that's changed since then for Terran is the Concussive Shell cost and research time has changed to 50/50 and 60 seconds. There were no changes for Protoss or Terran between patch 9 and patch 10. Protoss players were complaining marauders were OP DURING patch 8. Also the statistics were released LAST WEEK (April 19). It wasn't like these results were from months or even weeks ago. Blizzard doesn't release win statistics on a daily basis. I didn't claim anything about current stats, the poster I quoted said To which I said, "Blizzard had statistics that Protoss had a 55% win rate over Terran." If you are saying that the FEW DAYS since patch 9/10 has been out is enough for Blizzard to think that TvP is suddenly back in Terran's favor, then you're asking for too much too soon. People who are complaining about the change in Marauder research time felt that Blizzard was unjustified and that Terran was OP. Blizzard made the change when Protoss had a 55% win rate in PvT (on April 19, when Blizzard stated the win rate was 55%). It's way too soon to say that Terran is OP NOW, and people who are complaining that Terran was still OP in patch 8 need to realize those statistics were FROM patch 8.
"To which I said, "Blizzard had statistics that Protoss had a 55% win rate over Terran.""
Now you are even pulling off fake quotes to further your cause. Quite pointless since anyone can just check what you wrote. What you really wrote was: "It has something to do with the fact that Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran overall on the US Servers.". Has, is present tense, and thus means currently, which is entirely inaccurate since the interview where those numbers were taken was several patches ago. And since then Terran has been nothing but buffed while Protoss has suffered a severe nerf, which without a doubt gives a favor to Terran compared to before (how much remains to be seen though).
Just don't dress up lies as facts to further your cause in the future, as in worst case someone may actually believe what you say.
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On April 26 2010 05:45 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 03:35 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 00:30 Paladia wrote:On April 26 2010 00:28 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 00:13 Paladia wrote:On April 25 2010 23:54 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 25 2010 23:43 OHtRUe wrote:
Terran now rapes prottoss everyway. Early game you can be super aggressive again with 2 rax marauder with concussive and if you survive his initial push you win pretty much. You also can do 4 rax marine FE which is ridicolously hard to stop as toss. really dont understand how they think TvP is in toss's favor.... It has something to do with the fact that Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran overall on the US Servers. You call it a "fact", so please state the source of said fact. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=121072Releasing a patch that doesn't nerf protoss: Patches have different aims. Sometimes they're based on balancing race matchups, but oftentimes not. For example, the ZvZ matchup was stale because they were only making 3 units. The reasons for the patch are that statistically speaking, protoss is winning a lot. ZvT and ZvP have only 1% win-loss differential. However PvT is at around a 55% win rate. Unless you think Blizzard HQ is an unreliable source. If that's the case then I don't know what to say. That is from several patches ago. You claimed it was the current stats, which is entirely inaccurate. Dressing up stats from several patches ago as current is highly questionable. It was 2 patches ago, in patch 8. All that's changed since then for Terran is the Concussive Shell cost and research time has changed to 50/50 and 60 seconds. There were no changes for Protoss or Terran between patch 9 and patch 10. Protoss players were complaining marauders were OP DURING patch 8. Also the statistics were released LAST WEEK (April 19). It wasn't like these results were from months or even weeks ago. Blizzard doesn't release win statistics on a daily basis. I didn't claim anything about current stats, the poster I quoted said really dont understand how they think TvP is in toss's favor.... To which I said, "Blizzard had statistics that Protoss had a 55% win rate over Terran." If you are saying that the FEW DAYS since patch 9/10 has been out is enough for Blizzard to think that TvP is suddenly back in Terran's favor, then you're asking for too much too soon. People who are complaining about the change in Marauder research time felt that Blizzard was unjustified and that Terran was OP. Blizzard made the change when Protoss had a 55% win rate in PvT (on April 19, when Blizzard stated the win rate was 55%). It's way too soon to say that Terran is OP NOW, and people who are complaining that Terran was still OP in patch 8 need to realize those statistics were FROM patch 8. "To which I said, "Blizzard had statistics that Protoss had a 55% win rate over Terran.""Now you are even pulling off fake quotes to further your cause. Quite pointless since anyone can just check what you wrote. What you really wrote was: " It has something to do with the fact that Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran overall on the US Servers.". Has, is present tense, and thus means currently, which is entirely inaccurate since the interview where those numbers were taken was several patches ago. And since then Terran has been nothing but buffed while Protoss has suffered a severe nerf, which without a doubt gives a favor to Terran compared to before (how much remains to be seen though). Just don't dress up lies as facts to further your cause in the future, as in worst case someone may actually believe what you say.
Since everything I say is lies, why don't you demonstrate with clear evidence why Protoss vs. Terran is Terran favored as of patch 10?
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On April 26 2010 05:45 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 03:35 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 00:30 Paladia wrote:On April 26 2010 00:28 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 00:13 Paladia wrote:On April 25 2010 23:54 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 25 2010 23:43 OHtRUe wrote:
Terran now rapes prottoss everyway. Early game you can be super aggressive again with 2 rax marauder with concussive and if you survive his initial push you win pretty much. You also can do 4 rax marine FE which is ridicolously hard to stop as toss. really dont understand how they think TvP is in toss's favor.... It has something to do with the fact that Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran overall on the US Servers. You call it a "fact", so please state the source of said fact. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=121072Releasing a patch that doesn't nerf protoss: Patches have different aims. Sometimes they're based on balancing race matchups, but oftentimes not. For example, the ZvZ matchup was stale because they were only making 3 units. The reasons for the patch are that statistically speaking, protoss is winning a lot. ZvT and ZvP have only 1% win-loss differential. However PvT is at around a 55% win rate. Unless you think Blizzard HQ is an unreliable source. If that's the case then I don't know what to say. That is from several patches ago. You claimed it was the current stats, which is entirely inaccurate. Dressing up stats from several patches ago as current is highly questionable. It was 2 patches ago, in patch 8. All that's changed since then for Terran is the Concussive Shell cost and research time has changed to 50/50 and 60 seconds. There were no changes for Protoss or Terran between patch 9 and patch 10. Protoss players were complaining marauders were OP DURING patch 8. Also the statistics were released LAST WEEK (April 19). It wasn't like these results were from months or even weeks ago. Blizzard doesn't release win statistics on a daily basis. I didn't claim anything about current stats, the poster I quoted said really dont understand how they think TvP is in toss's favor.... To which I said, "Blizzard had statistics that Protoss had a 55% win rate over Terran." If you are saying that the FEW DAYS since patch 9/10 has been out is enough for Blizzard to think that TvP is suddenly back in Terran's favor, then you're asking for too much too soon. People who are complaining about the change in Marauder research time felt that Blizzard was unjustified and that Terran was OP. Blizzard made the change when Protoss had a 55% win rate in PvT (on April 19, when Blizzard stated the win rate was 55%). It's way too soon to say that Terran is OP NOW, and people who are complaining that Terran was still OP in patch 8 need to realize those statistics were FROM patch 8. "To which I said, "Blizzard had statistics that Protoss had a 55% win rate over Terran.""Now you are even pulling off fake quotes to further your cause. Quite pointless since anyone can just check what you wrote. What you really wrote was: " It has something to do with the fact that Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran overall on the US Servers.". Has, is present tense, and thus means currently, which is entirely inaccurate since the interview where those numbers were taken was several patches ago. And since then Terran has been nothing but buffed while Protoss has suffered a severe nerf, which without a doubt gives a favor to Terran compared to before (how much remains to be seen though). Just don't dress up lies as facts to further your cause in the future, as in worst case someone may actually believe what you say.
Yea. The "55% win rate" may not exactly true any more now. But it is true that David Kim said that "It's hard to balance Terran and Protoss. It's hard for a Terran to beat a Protoss, and we still can't fix that. That's the matchup we're focusing on right now. There will be a patch soon once we decide on a direction to balance that matchup." on the April 20's interview which is just a few days before patch 9.
And in the patch 9, they reduced the cost of Shell, and increased the production time of Immortal. I think that's one of their first trials to fix the unbalance problem on PvsT. So Blizzard will see how the result would turn out. In my personal opinion, I am not sure if that change in Patch9 is going to fix those huge 55% winning rate(oh yea. I should've said maybe less than 55% for now, but still protoss is favored on PvsT based on what David said on April 20) difference on PvsT. Maybe it would work. Nobody knows yet. We just need to wait.
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On April 25 2010 16:52 Wings wrote:Show nested quote +Q: The balance feedback is probably different for Korea and for USA, are you taking the Korean feedback more seriously as a Korean developer? ... absolutely horrible question. I'm assuming a korean interviewer on Ygosu asked this, this question could make korean people look overly nationalistic and racist.
You don't seem to know Koreans in Korea very well
They're probably the most ethnocentric people in Asia, next to Japan.
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On April 25 2010 16:47 genotyrant wrote:
I'm surprised that the developers are plat players, but really good to know.
You're surprised that people who have been immersed in the game for the past few years are platinum?
I'm actually surprised that there are any developers who are NOT platinum.
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On April 26 2010 06:34 Kyo Yuy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 05:45 Paladia wrote:On April 26 2010 03:35 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 00:30 Paladia wrote:On April 26 2010 00:28 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 00:13 Paladia wrote:On April 25 2010 23:54 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 25 2010 23:43 OHtRUe wrote:
Terran now rapes prottoss everyway. Early game you can be super aggressive again with 2 rax marauder with concussive and if you survive his initial push you win pretty much. You also can do 4 rax marine FE which is ridicolously hard to stop as toss. really dont understand how they think TvP is in toss's favor.... It has something to do with the fact that Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran overall on the US Servers. You call it a "fact", so please state the source of said fact. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=121072Releasing a patch that doesn't nerf protoss: Patches have different aims. Sometimes they're based on balancing race matchups, but oftentimes not. For example, the ZvZ matchup was stale because they were only making 3 units. The reasons for the patch are that statistically speaking, protoss is winning a lot. ZvT and ZvP have only 1% win-loss differential. However PvT is at around a 55% win rate. Unless you think Blizzard HQ is an unreliable source. If that's the case then I don't know what to say. That is from several patches ago. You claimed it was the current stats, which is entirely inaccurate. Dressing up stats from several patches ago as current is highly questionable. It was 2 patches ago, in patch 8. All that's changed since then for Terran is the Concussive Shell cost and research time has changed to 50/50 and 60 seconds. There were no changes for Protoss or Terran between patch 9 and patch 10. Protoss players were complaining marauders were OP DURING patch 8. Also the statistics were released LAST WEEK (April 19). It wasn't like these results were from months or even weeks ago. Blizzard doesn't release win statistics on a daily basis. I didn't claim anything about current stats, the poster I quoted said really dont understand how they think TvP is in toss's favor.... To which I said, "Blizzard had statistics that Protoss had a 55% win rate over Terran." If you are saying that the FEW DAYS since patch 9/10 has been out is enough for Blizzard to think that TvP is suddenly back in Terran's favor, then you're asking for too much too soon. People who are complaining about the change in Marauder research time felt that Blizzard was unjustified and that Terran was OP. Blizzard made the change when Protoss had a 55% win rate in PvT (on April 19, when Blizzard stated the win rate was 55%). It's way too soon to say that Terran is OP NOW, and people who are complaining that Terran was still OP in patch 8 need to realize those statistics were FROM patch 8. "To which I said, "Blizzard had statistics that Protoss had a 55% win rate over Terran.""Now you are even pulling off fake quotes to further your cause. Quite pointless since anyone can just check what you wrote. What you really wrote was: " It has something to do with the fact that Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran overall on the US Servers.". Has, is present tense, and thus means currently, which is entirely inaccurate since the interview where those numbers were taken was several patches ago. And since then Terran has been nothing but buffed while Protoss has suffered a severe nerf, which without a doubt gives a favor to Terran compared to before (how much remains to be seen though). Just don't dress up lies as facts to further your cause in the future, as in worst case someone may actually believe what you say. Since everything I say is lies, why don't you demonstrate with clear evidence why Protoss vs. Terran is Terran favored as of patch 10?
I have no idea if PvT is P or T favored since the latest patch. Likely neither do you.
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On April 26 2010 07:00 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 06:34 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 05:45 Paladia wrote:On April 26 2010 03:35 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 00:30 Paladia wrote:On April 26 2010 00:28 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 00:13 Paladia wrote:On April 25 2010 23:54 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 25 2010 23:43 OHtRUe wrote:
Terran now rapes prottoss everyway. Early game you can be super aggressive again with 2 rax marauder with concussive and if you survive his initial push you win pretty much. You also can do 4 rax marine FE which is ridicolously hard to stop as toss. really dont understand how they think TvP is in toss's favor.... It has something to do with the fact that Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran overall on the US Servers. You call it a "fact", so please state the source of said fact. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=121072Releasing a patch that doesn't nerf protoss: Patches have different aims. Sometimes they're based on balancing race matchups, but oftentimes not. For example, the ZvZ matchup was stale because they were only making 3 units. The reasons for the patch are that statistically speaking, protoss is winning a lot. ZvT and ZvP have only 1% win-loss differential. However PvT is at around a 55% win rate. Unless you think Blizzard HQ is an unreliable source. If that's the case then I don't know what to say. That is from several patches ago. You claimed it was the current stats, which is entirely inaccurate. Dressing up stats from several patches ago as current is highly questionable. It was 2 patches ago, in patch 8. All that's changed since then for Terran is the Concussive Shell cost and research time has changed to 50/50 and 60 seconds. There were no changes for Protoss or Terran between patch 9 and patch 10. Protoss players were complaining marauders were OP DURING patch 8. Also the statistics were released LAST WEEK (April 19). It wasn't like these results were from months or even weeks ago. Blizzard doesn't release win statistics on a daily basis. I didn't claim anything about current stats, the poster I quoted said really dont understand how they think TvP is in toss's favor.... To which I said, "Blizzard had statistics that Protoss had a 55% win rate over Terran." If you are saying that the FEW DAYS since patch 9/10 has been out is enough for Blizzard to think that TvP is suddenly back in Terran's favor, then you're asking for too much too soon. People who are complaining about the change in Marauder research time felt that Blizzard was unjustified and that Terran was OP. Blizzard made the change when Protoss had a 55% win rate in PvT (on April 19, when Blizzard stated the win rate was 55%). It's way too soon to say that Terran is OP NOW, and people who are complaining that Terran was still OP in patch 8 need to realize those statistics were FROM patch 8. "To which I said, "Blizzard had statistics that Protoss had a 55% win rate over Terran.""Now you are even pulling off fake quotes to further your cause. Quite pointless since anyone can just check what you wrote. What you really wrote was: " It has something to do with the fact that Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran overall on the US Servers.". Has, is present tense, and thus means currently, which is entirely inaccurate since the interview where those numbers were taken was several patches ago. And since then Terran has been nothing but buffed while Protoss has suffered a severe nerf, which without a doubt gives a favor to Terran compared to before (how much remains to be seen though). Just don't dress up lies as facts to further your cause in the future, as in worst case someone may actually believe what you say. Since everything I say is lies, why don't you demonstrate with clear evidence why Protoss vs. Terran is Terran favored as of patch 10? I have no idea if PvT is P favored since the latest patch. Likely neither do you.
And since then Terran has been nothing but buffed while Protoss has suffered a severe nerf, which without a doubt gives a favor to Terran compared to before (how much remains to be seen though).
Without a doubt, right? Prove it.
Unless you want to admit that you're contradicting yourself with "Without a doubt gives a favor to Terran" versus "I have no idea if PvT is favored."
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On April 26 2010 07:05 Kyo Yuy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 07:00 Paladia wrote:On April 26 2010 06:34 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 05:45 Paladia wrote:On April 26 2010 03:35 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 00:30 Paladia wrote:On April 26 2010 00:28 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 00:13 Paladia wrote:On April 25 2010 23:54 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 25 2010 23:43 OHtRUe wrote:
Terran now rapes prottoss everyway. Early game you can be super aggressive again with 2 rax marauder with concussive and if you survive his initial push you win pretty much. You also can do 4 rax marine FE which is ridicolously hard to stop as toss. really dont understand how they think TvP is in toss's favor.... It has something to do with the fact that Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran overall on the US Servers. You call it a "fact", so please state the source of said fact. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=121072Releasing a patch that doesn't nerf protoss: Patches have different aims. Sometimes they're based on balancing race matchups, but oftentimes not. For example, the ZvZ matchup was stale because they were only making 3 units. The reasons for the patch are that statistically speaking, protoss is winning a lot. ZvT and ZvP have only 1% win-loss differential. However PvT is at around a 55% win rate. Unless you think Blizzard HQ is an unreliable source. If that's the case then I don't know what to say. That is from several patches ago. You claimed it was the current stats, which is entirely inaccurate. Dressing up stats from several patches ago as current is highly questionable. It was 2 patches ago, in patch 8. All that's changed since then for Terran is the Concussive Shell cost and research time has changed to 50/50 and 60 seconds. There were no changes for Protoss or Terran between patch 9 and patch 10. Protoss players were complaining marauders were OP DURING patch 8. Also the statistics were released LAST WEEK (April 19). It wasn't like these results were from months or even weeks ago. Blizzard doesn't release win statistics on a daily basis. I didn't claim anything about current stats, the poster I quoted said really dont understand how they think TvP is in toss's favor.... To which I said, "Blizzard had statistics that Protoss had a 55% win rate over Terran." If you are saying that the FEW DAYS since patch 9/10 has been out is enough for Blizzard to think that TvP is suddenly back in Terran's favor, then you're asking for too much too soon. People who are complaining about the change in Marauder research time felt that Blizzard was unjustified and that Terran was OP. Blizzard made the change when Protoss had a 55% win rate in PvT (on April 19, when Blizzard stated the win rate was 55%). It's way too soon to say that Terran is OP NOW, and people who are complaining that Terran was still OP in patch 8 need to realize those statistics were FROM patch 8. "To which I said, "Blizzard had statistics that Protoss had a 55% win rate over Terran.""Now you are even pulling off fake quotes to further your cause. Quite pointless since anyone can just check what you wrote. What you really wrote was: " It has something to do with the fact that Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran overall on the US Servers.". Has, is present tense, and thus means currently, which is entirely inaccurate since the interview where those numbers were taken was several patches ago. And since then Terran has been nothing but buffed while Protoss has suffered a severe nerf, which without a doubt gives a favor to Terran compared to before (how much remains to be seen though). Just don't dress up lies as facts to further your cause in the future, as in worst case someone may actually believe what you say. Since everything I say is lies, why don't you demonstrate with clear evidence why Protoss vs. Terran is Terran favored as of patch 10? I have no idea if PvT is P favored since the latest patch. Likely neither do you. Show nested quote +And since then Terran has been nothing but buffed while Protoss has suffered a severe nerf, which without a doubt gives a favor to Terran compared to before (how much remains to be seen though). Without a doubt, right? Prove it.
Huh? Did you even read the patch notes?
The thing that happened in them was that Marauders were buffed and Immortals were nerfed. That gives an advantage to Terran compared to before, the question is just how much.
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thanks for translating this, man!
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On April 26 2010 07:08 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 07:05 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 07:00 Paladia wrote:On April 26 2010 06:34 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 05:45 Paladia wrote:On April 26 2010 03:35 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 00:30 Paladia wrote:On April 26 2010 00:28 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 00:13 Paladia wrote:On April 25 2010 23:54 Kyo Yuy wrote:
[quote]
It has something to do with the fact that Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran overall on the US Servers. You call it a "fact", so please state the source of said fact. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=121072Releasing a patch that doesn't nerf protoss: Patches have different aims. Sometimes they're based on balancing race matchups, but oftentimes not. For example, the ZvZ matchup was stale because they were only making 3 units. The reasons for the patch are that statistically speaking, protoss is winning a lot. ZvT and ZvP have only 1% win-loss differential. However PvT is at around a 55% win rate. Unless you think Blizzard HQ is an unreliable source. If that's the case then I don't know what to say. That is from several patches ago. You claimed it was the current stats, which is entirely inaccurate. Dressing up stats from several patches ago as current is highly questionable. It was 2 patches ago, in patch 8. All that's changed since then for Terran is the Concussive Shell cost and research time has changed to 50/50 and 60 seconds. There were no changes for Protoss or Terran between patch 9 and patch 10. Protoss players were complaining marauders were OP DURING patch 8. Also the statistics were released LAST WEEK (April 19). It wasn't like these results were from months or even weeks ago. Blizzard doesn't release win statistics on a daily basis. I didn't claim anything about current stats, the poster I quoted said really dont understand how they think TvP is in toss's favor.... To which I said, "Blizzard had statistics that Protoss had a 55% win rate over Terran." If you are saying that the FEW DAYS since patch 9/10 has been out is enough for Blizzard to think that TvP is suddenly back in Terran's favor, then you're asking for too much too soon. People who are complaining about the change in Marauder research time felt that Blizzard was unjustified and that Terran was OP. Blizzard made the change when Protoss had a 55% win rate in PvT (on April 19, when Blizzard stated the win rate was 55%). It's way too soon to say that Terran is OP NOW, and people who are complaining that Terran was still OP in patch 8 need to realize those statistics were FROM patch 8. "To which I said, "Blizzard had statistics that Protoss had a 55% win rate over Terran.""Now you are even pulling off fake quotes to further your cause. Quite pointless since anyone can just check what you wrote. What you really wrote was: " It has something to do with the fact that Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran overall on the US Servers.". Has, is present tense, and thus means currently, which is entirely inaccurate since the interview where those numbers were taken was several patches ago. And since then Terran has been nothing but buffed while Protoss has suffered a severe nerf, which without a doubt gives a favor to Terran compared to before (how much remains to be seen though). Just don't dress up lies as facts to further your cause in the future, as in worst case someone may actually believe what you say. Since everything I say is lies, why don't you demonstrate with clear evidence why Protoss vs. Terran is Terran favored as of patch 10? I have no idea if PvT is P favored since the latest patch. Likely neither do you. And since then Terran has been nothing but buffed while Protoss has suffered a severe nerf, which without a doubt gives a favor to Terran compared to before (how much remains to be seen though). Without a doubt, right? Prove it. Huh? Did you even read the patch notes? The thing that happened in them was that Marauders were buffed and Immortals were nerfed. That gives an advantage to Terran compared to before, the question is just how much.
Prove it. How does it give an advantage to Terran?
How does altering build times and research costs give Terran an advantage? You seem to be confident that Terran will gain something out of it.
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On April 26 2010 07:10 Kyo Yuy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 07:08 Paladia wrote:On April 26 2010 07:05 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 07:00 Paladia wrote:On April 26 2010 06:34 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 05:45 Paladia wrote:On April 26 2010 03:35 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 00:30 Paladia wrote:On April 26 2010 00:28 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 00:13 Paladia wrote:
[quote]You call it a "fact", so please state the source of said fact.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=121072Releasing a patch that doesn't nerf protoss: Patches have different aims. Sometimes they're based on balancing race matchups, but oftentimes not. For example, the ZvZ matchup was stale because they were only making 3 units. The reasons for the patch are that statistically speaking, protoss is winning a lot. ZvT and ZvP have only 1% win-loss differential. However PvT is at around a 55% win rate. Unless you think Blizzard HQ is an unreliable source. If that's the case then I don't know what to say. That is from several patches ago. You claimed it was the current stats, which is entirely inaccurate. Dressing up stats from several patches ago as current is highly questionable. It was 2 patches ago, in patch 8. All that's changed since then for Terran is the Concussive Shell cost and research time has changed to 50/50 and 60 seconds. There were no changes for Protoss or Terran between patch 9 and patch 10. Protoss players were complaining marauders were OP DURING patch 8. Also the statistics were released LAST WEEK (April 19). It wasn't like these results were from months or even weeks ago. Blizzard doesn't release win statistics on a daily basis. I didn't claim anything about current stats, the poster I quoted said really dont understand how they think TvP is in toss's favor.... To which I said, "Blizzard had statistics that Protoss had a 55% win rate over Terran." If you are saying that the FEW DAYS since patch 9/10 has been out is enough for Blizzard to think that TvP is suddenly back in Terran's favor, then you're asking for too much too soon. People who are complaining about the change in Marauder research time felt that Blizzard was unjustified and that Terran was OP. Blizzard made the change when Protoss had a 55% win rate in PvT (on April 19, when Blizzard stated the win rate was 55%). It's way too soon to say that Terran is OP NOW, and people who are complaining that Terran was still OP in patch 8 need to realize those statistics were FROM patch 8. "To which I said, "Blizzard had statistics that Protoss had a 55% win rate over Terran.""Now you are even pulling off fake quotes to further your cause. Quite pointless since anyone can just check what you wrote. What you really wrote was: " It has something to do with the fact that Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran overall on the US Servers.". Has, is present tense, and thus means currently, which is entirely inaccurate since the interview where those numbers were taken was several patches ago. And since then Terran has been nothing but buffed while Protoss has suffered a severe nerf, which without a doubt gives a favor to Terran compared to before (how much remains to be seen though). Just don't dress up lies as facts to further your cause in the future, as in worst case someone may actually believe what you say. Since everything I say is lies, why don't you demonstrate with clear evidence why Protoss vs. Terran is Terran favored as of patch 10? I have no idea if PvT is P favored since the latest patch. Likely neither do you. And since then Terran has been nothing but buffed while Protoss has suffered a severe nerf, which without a doubt gives a favor to Terran compared to before (how much remains to be seen though). Without a doubt, right? Prove it. Huh? Did you even read the patch notes? The thing that happened in them was that Marauders were buffed and Immortals were nerfed. That gives an advantage to Terran compared to before, the question is just how much. Prove it. How does it give an advantage to Terran? How does altering build times and research costs give Terran an advantage? You seem to be confident that Terran will gain something out of it.
Balance Changes
* TERRAN
o Marauder
+ Concussive Shells research cost decreased from 100/100 80 seconds to 50/50 60 seconds.
Advantage compared to before.
* PROTOSS
o Immortal
+ Build time increased from 40 to 55.
Disadvantage compared to before.
The patch notes are the proof of the advantage compared to before. A decreased research cost means you can spend more money on an army. An increased build time cost means you will have less army at x time. There is no middle ground here, those were solid buffs and nerfs, if you can't even see that buffs gives you an advantage compared to before there is no point in discussing anything further with you.
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On April 26 2010 07:00 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 06:34 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 05:45 Paladia wrote:On April 26 2010 03:35 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 00:30 Paladia wrote:On April 26 2010 00:28 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 00:13 Paladia wrote:On April 25 2010 23:54 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 25 2010 23:43 OHtRUe wrote:
Terran now rapes prottoss everyway. Early game you can be super aggressive again with 2 rax marauder with concussive and if you survive his initial push you win pretty much. You also can do 4 rax marine FE which is ridicolously hard to stop as toss. really dont understand how they think TvP is in toss's favor.... It has something to do with the fact that Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran overall on the US Servers. You call it a "fact", so please state the source of said fact. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=121072Releasing a patch that doesn't nerf protoss: Patches have different aims. Sometimes they're based on balancing race matchups, but oftentimes not. For example, the ZvZ matchup was stale because they were only making 3 units. The reasons for the patch are that statistically speaking, protoss is winning a lot. ZvT and ZvP have only 1% win-loss differential. However PvT is at around a 55% win rate. Unless you think Blizzard HQ is an unreliable source. If that's the case then I don't know what to say. That is from several patches ago. You claimed it was the current stats, which is entirely inaccurate. Dressing up stats from several patches ago as current is highly questionable. It was 2 patches ago, in patch 8. All that's changed since then for Terran is the Concussive Shell cost and research time has changed to 50/50 and 60 seconds. There were no changes for Protoss or Terran between patch 9 and patch 10. Protoss players were complaining marauders were OP DURING patch 8. Also the statistics were released LAST WEEK (April 19). It wasn't like these results were from months or even weeks ago. Blizzard doesn't release win statistics on a daily basis. I didn't claim anything about current stats, the poster I quoted said really dont understand how they think TvP is in toss's favor.... To which I said, "Blizzard had statistics that Protoss had a 55% win rate over Terran." If you are saying that the FEW DAYS since patch 9/10 has been out is enough for Blizzard to think that TvP is suddenly back in Terran's favor, then you're asking for too much too soon. People who are complaining about the change in Marauder research time felt that Blizzard was unjustified and that Terran was OP. Blizzard made the change when Protoss had a 55% win rate in PvT (on April 19, when Blizzard stated the win rate was 55%). It's way too soon to say that Terran is OP NOW, and people who are complaining that Terran was still OP in patch 8 need to realize those statistics were FROM patch 8. "To which I said, "Blizzard had statistics that Protoss had a 55% win rate over Terran.""Now you are even pulling off fake quotes to further your cause. Quite pointless since anyone can just check what you wrote. What you really wrote was: " It has something to do with the fact that Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran overall on the US Servers.". Has, is present tense, and thus means currently, which is entirely inaccurate since the interview where those numbers were taken was several patches ago. And since then Terran has been nothing but buffed while Protoss has suffered a severe nerf, which without a doubt gives a favor to Terran compared to before (how much remains to be seen though). Just don't dress up lies as facts to further your cause in the future, as in worst case someone may actually believe what you say. Since everything I say is lies, why don't you demonstrate with clear evidence why Protoss vs. Terran is Terran favored as of patch 10? I have no idea if PvT is P or T favored since the latest patch. Likely neither do you.
Actually Paladia said that "without a doubt gives a favor to Terran COMPARED TO BEFORE" which means he is not saying that Terran is favored over Protoss but Terran got more advantage compared to before.
Anyway guys. Nobody knows which one is favored after the lastest patch yet, coz its just patched. So Lets stop arguing and just wait for the next result coming from Blizzard.
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On April 26 2010 07:28 key_of_life wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 07:00 Paladia wrote:On April 26 2010 06:34 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 05:45 Paladia wrote:On April 26 2010 03:35 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 00:30 Paladia wrote:On April 26 2010 00:28 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 26 2010 00:13 Paladia wrote:On April 25 2010 23:54 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 25 2010 23:43 OHtRUe wrote:
Terran now rapes prottoss everyway. Early game you can be super aggressive again with 2 rax marauder with concussive and if you survive his initial push you win pretty much. You also can do 4 rax marine FE which is ridicolously hard to stop as toss. really dont understand how they think TvP is in toss's favor.... It has something to do with the fact that Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran overall on the US Servers. You call it a "fact", so please state the source of said fact. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=121072Releasing a patch that doesn't nerf protoss: Patches have different aims. Sometimes they're based on balancing race matchups, but oftentimes not. For example, the ZvZ matchup was stale because they were only making 3 units. The reasons for the patch are that statistically speaking, protoss is winning a lot. ZvT and ZvP have only 1% win-loss differential. However PvT is at around a 55% win rate. Unless you think Blizzard HQ is an unreliable source. If that's the case then I don't know what to say. That is from several patches ago. You claimed it was the current stats, which is entirely inaccurate. Dressing up stats from several patches ago as current is highly questionable. It was 2 patches ago, in patch 8. All that's changed since then for Terran is the Concussive Shell cost and research time has changed to 50/50 and 60 seconds. There were no changes for Protoss or Terran between patch 9 and patch 10. Protoss players were complaining marauders were OP DURING patch 8. Also the statistics were released LAST WEEK (April 19). It wasn't like these results were from months or even weeks ago. Blizzard doesn't release win statistics on a daily basis. I didn't claim anything about current stats, the poster I quoted said really dont understand how they think TvP is in toss's favor.... To which I said, "Blizzard had statistics that Protoss had a 55% win rate over Terran." If you are saying that the FEW DAYS since patch 9/10 has been out is enough for Blizzard to think that TvP is suddenly back in Terran's favor, then you're asking for too much too soon. People who are complaining about the change in Marauder research time felt that Blizzard was unjustified and that Terran was OP. Blizzard made the change when Protoss had a 55% win rate in PvT (on April 19, when Blizzard stated the win rate was 55%). It's way too soon to say that Terran is OP NOW, and people who are complaining that Terran was still OP in patch 8 need to realize those statistics were FROM patch 8. "To which I said, "Blizzard had statistics that Protoss had a 55% win rate over Terran.""Now you are even pulling off fake quotes to further your cause. Quite pointless since anyone can just check what you wrote. What you really wrote was: " It has something to do with the fact that Protoss has a 55% win rate over Terran overall on the US Servers.". Has, is present tense, and thus means currently, which is entirely inaccurate since the interview where those numbers were taken was several patches ago. And since then Terran has been nothing but buffed while Protoss has suffered a severe nerf, which without a doubt gives a favor to Terran compared to before (how much remains to be seen though). Just don't dress up lies as facts to further your cause in the future, as in worst case someone may actually believe what you say. Since everything I say is lies, why don't you demonstrate with clear evidence why Protoss vs. Terran is Terran favored as of patch 10? I have no idea if PvT is P or T favored since the latest patch. Likely neither do you. Actually Paladia said that "without a doubt gives a favor to Terran COMPARED TO BEFORE" which means he is not saying that Terran is favored over Protoss but Terran got more advantage compared to before. Anyway guys. Nobody knows which one is favored after the lastest patch yet, coz its just patched. So Lets stop arguing and just wait for the next result coming from Blizzard.
Fine. I don't really want to discuss this any further, as this has become nothing more than an argument in semantics.
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Paladia, I'm pretty sure the 55% winrate is still possible, since Marauders LOSING Concussive Shell base is a more severe nerf than adding to the Immortal build time.
Terrans and Protoss have both been nerfed since those statistics.
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On April 26 2010 05:39 Synwave wrote:
Lengthy analysis is data.
Thanks for the translation/link! Interesting read.
Actually, processed data is information.
While I don't say that analyses are useless (because they certainly aren't) the sample size and the quality of the actual data that goes into them is usually restricted to hunches, speculations and anecdotal evidence. There are of course exceptions (such as that thread where someone had been analyzing all mineral fields on all maps and the relationship between patch placement and MULE use) which provide great insights which hopefully reach Blizzard one way or another but in general I'd say how people play the beta will have a more noticeable positive effect on the final game than what people write about it.
Just my two cents though. Interesting interview.
edit: Re-reading my post I thought I should add that I don't oppose analyses as such. Analyses about the game have a value in themselves simply due to the discussions they spark and the thoughts they provoke. I just think that for actual game improvement putting those thoughts into action in-game will be more effective.
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On April 26 2010 07:41 TheTuna wrote:
Paladia, I'm pretty sure the 55% winrate is still possible, since Marauders LOSING Concussive Shell base is a more severe nerf than adding to the Immortal build time.
Terrans and Protoss have both been nerfed since those statistics.
You are mistaken. Those numbers were from patch 8, since then Marauders (and Terran in general) have only been buffed whilst Protoss have been nerfed (Immortal build time).
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On April 26 2010 19:22 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 07:41 TheTuna wrote:
Paladia, I'm pretty sure the 55% winrate is still possible, since Marauders LOSING Concussive Shell base is a more severe nerf than adding to the Immortal build time.
Terrans and Protoss have both been nerfed since those statistics. You are mistaken. Those numbers were from patch 8, since then Marauders (and Terran in general) have only been buffed whilst Protoss have been nerfed (Immortal build time).
You're making massive assumptions that the matchup had reached its resting point, and that any changes to Terran or nerfs to protoss had a significant impact.
It IS possible that the matchup is still 55% in favor of protoss. It's also possible that it's 55% in favor of terrans.
It's not reasonable to think that buffs to terran and nerfs to protoss would cause terran to have a worse win rate, but that doesn't mean that the win rates couldn't have moved in either direction just because of metagame evolution.
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Good stuff. I will tell you one thing, if their approach to trying to even out the TvP matchup has ANYTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH MAKING MARAUDERS BETTER, I quit.
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I think its awesome that there are people on both sides of the matchup claiming the matchup is impossible. What a great game!
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On May 01 2010 00:17 Rice wrote:
I think its awesome that there are people on both sides of the matchup claiming the matchup is impossible. What a great game!
Just in case you were referring to my post, I play terran and think it's broken in favor of protoss, I just think marauders are a retarded unit.
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I don't actually think that Siegetanks are almost useless, so far I see them defining TvT and sometimes beeing used in TvZ and TvP. Right now I love them in TvP (Platinum but only 1200 yet as I didn't ladder much)
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EPT
