EPT[Show] Weapon of Choice - 7:00 PM EDT - Page 104
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TortoiseCa
Canada104 Posts
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kardinal
Sweden154 Posts
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durbarak
Austria54 Posts
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flagg
Sweden123 Posts
On July 23 2011 17:37 myth_au wrote: After the recent drama involving EG and Puma, i wanted to listen to weapon of choice since it discussed the issue. If you haven't watched/ listened to it, i think it is worth watching, mainly i think it highlights personalities. I have only seen Wheet as a caster so this was the first time i saw him as a host. At the outset, there was a prominent theme that come out throughout the show, mainly i felt there was an ambush/attack on Milkis (the translator). Really as the show went on i got a point where i felt as though he was defending on so many fronts (for even things he couldnt really control). The show screamed of bias, the host (Wheat) who i would assume should be fair really sided with EG on so many fronts it not funny. He tries alot to corner Milkis into a particular answer. My observation of this particular episode was that AG (is a complete ass), the later part of the show tried to shift blame (in my view complete blame) to Milkis. In summary "it was why didn't you contact me for my side". AG says it was "legal and ethical" right what he did that is he didnt talk to Coach Lee. And following this Wheat goes or says words to the effect of "F*** this S*** is gonna happen" or "wake the F*** up". Legally i wont comment that it is black and white. Ethically it is a point of view and it was not ethically correct for so many reason, but primarily because AG did not respect the Korean culture. I would like to give an example of why it wasn't ethically correct. AG talks about it was a western perspective (saying it was right). However, I know for a fact that, many orginisations when dealing internationally OFTEN (if not ALWAYS) consults people to know about the country they are approaching. WHY do organisations do this, mianly to make sure they don't disrespect the culture and to ensure a continued relationship. EG in its dealing with Puma DID NO RESEARCH and AG does not sincerely apologise, and defends his actions on the basis that in the Western culture it is okay. I don't disagree with this because i am from a western country. However, he this forgets a very important fact, EG is not dealing with a western culture they are entering the Korean culture. In any event, i found the show to be very bias and often Wheat and AG would often stop Milkis from responding/interrupting. Sigh. Interested to know if anyone else noticed to above or am i just being picky. In a perfect world a show like this shouldn’t have any financial relationships with parties that they cover. You can’t expect someone to be unbiased against your employer. But I don’t think this is really possible in our Starcraft scene. If a new show would pop up and get popular the host will be approached by MLG, NASL , Dreamhack etc and the fans will like to see him there as well. Another way would be to not discuss topics where neutrality could be questioned but the onemoregame shows not talking about MLG and EG wouldn’t have much to talk about… I think it is up to the viewers to calculate if the message they are given could be biased. Onemoregame has to my knowledge been open about where it’s money comes from so this shouldn’t be a problem. DjWHEAT had an impossible situation in this episode and you should keep that in mind if you choose to criticize. | ||
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HoCRonin
Denmark23 Posts
2 hours about a player possibly (contract not signed) changeing teams. Does that issue really require such indepth scrutiny? Perhaps the next show should be about: Why use so much time on something so trivial. Not trying to be negative i will still tune in next time, but will plea Mr Wheat for a more diverse program. | ||
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TheAlchemist89
160 Posts
On July 24 2011 02:26 HoCRonin wrote: I usally enojy the show, and DJWheat,but that latest was really boring. 2 hours about a player possibly (contract not signed) changeing teams. Does that issue really require such indepth scrutiny? Perhaps the next show should be about: Why use so much time on something so trivial. Not trying to be negative i will still tune in next time, but will plea Mr Wheat for a more diverse program. Go read the Puma to EG thread..... it filled up with over 200 pages of comments in a few short hours. The depth they covered this issue on WeaponOfChoice was certainly justified, and imo they just scratched the surface of a much larger issue of how the global eSports scene moves forward from here. Given the large amount of foreign-korean deals that happened in the last week.... this issue is more relevant now than ever. If the topic doesn't matter to you, then I definitely see how this show was boring, but it's definitely not an irrelevant issue. If you want more game specific talk, tune into Inside the Game, that's likely more up your alley. I'd like to see more shows with more opinions on how the global eSports scene can/will grow and how it could/should be handled. Very interesting topic that really never happened in the past. | ||
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Random321321
32 Posts
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TheAlchemist89
160 Posts
On July 24 2011 02:53 Random321321 wrote: It has become clear that EG is a stand out in terms of unethical business practices, and that they have a clear understanding of how to manage it with slick corporate PR. That will probably lead to great success for them. They even have their own media outlet to promote their point of view (OMG shows). To be honest I still don't understand all of the "unethical" claims being thrown against EG. They approached a player with an idea, told em the offer stands, player goes home to think, and then makes the call. EG was pretty clear that they would not have a deal until Puma spoke with Coach Lee. I think EG should have had a statement out earlier, and they should stop trying to railroad conversations to prove their points. AG and iNcontrol both often speak in the same manner and it always seems to piss a fair amount of people off. Though in most cases they are rarely 'wrong' on a principle level. Given the deals that have happened lately between the foreign scene and Korea..... I'm definitely liking EG's move the best. The rest of them don't really add anything to any of the teams involved other than the transfer of some money... which may help more than is evident. It'll definitely be interesting moving forward. EG just needs way better "take the punches" PR management. They are "hard" defending their stances... and they are quite capable of doing that in debates, but people on large don't want to see corporations proving their points in fancy language. AG's appearance on the show definitely had me in his boat, but I was turned off when he turned his focus to attack Milkis (regardless if he stated it wasn't an attack, it was). I think if he had left the debate at his points, and not taken it further a lot of this EG hate would be completely unwarranted. | ||
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Slike
Greece127 Posts
On July 24 2011 03:00 TheAlchemist89 wrote: To be honest I still don't understand all of the "unethical" claims being thrown against EG. They approached a player with an idea, told em the offer stands, player goes home to think, and then makes the call. EG was pretty clear that they would not have a deal until Puma spoke with Coach Lee. I think EG should have had a statement out earlier, and they should stop trying to railroad conversations to prove their points. AG and iNcontrol both often speak in the same manner and it always seems to piss a fair amount of people off. Though in most cases they are rarely 'wrong' on a principle level. Given the deals that have happened lately between the foreign scene and Korea..... I'm definitely liking EG's move the best. The rest of them don't really add anything to any of the teams involved other than the transfer of some money... which may help more than is evident. It'll definitely be interesting moving forward. EG just needs way better "take the punches" PR management. They are "hard" defending their stances... and they are quite capable of doing that in debates, but people on large don't want to see corporations proving their points in fancy language. AG's appearance on the show definitely had me in his boat, but I was turned off when he turned his focus to attack Milkis (regardless if he stated it wasn't an attack, it was). I think if he had left the debate at his points, and not taken it further a lot of this EG hate would be completely unwarranted. I wasnt quite paying attention to this , thought this was another "drama" created for a couple of days in the forums but after watching WoC seeing this become a foreign scene vs korea thingie I kinda feel the same way. At start I thought EG "stole" a player under contract or something which had me feeling negative towards them but then I realised the player was a free agent that could make his own decision , which he did. I dont understand where all this ethical stuff come from , and more importantly I dont see why we should care more about what a big bussiness firm (in this case a sc2 team) lost or gained instead of what the player lost or gained. He was on no contract , probably not getting any salary , he got a better offer which included salary and paid travelling expenses so its better for him at the end of the day. If this whole deal is about EG not contacting the Coach or Manager of TSL , I can understand where it comes from and although I dont see how saying "We re signing your player and there is not much you can do about it" was gonna be more "ethical" , I can understand the basis of the argument. But if this isnt the case , and the problem is that EG didnt pay a transfer fee or even worse that they shouldnt have made a move at all since hes TSL's player then I find the whole argument a bit stupid to start with. The thing is , from hearing Milkis (since he took TSL's side on that argument) and reading the interview Mr. Lee did I understood they contract their best players and leave their lesser players as free agents. How is this ethical and starting talks to contract a free agent isnt? Being under no contract means there are no guaranteed earnings for you , no guaranteed games/tournament spots for you and you could practically be without a team at any point if they decide so , without anything in return. Why should this player who has nothing for granted not look out for the best of his interests and how is the team that approach him giving him a better deal unethical? Sure Puma got his training and became known from TSL , but so did the other guys in TSL who are getting paid salary. Also , Milkis used an example from broodwar , to show why korean teams avoid contracting players , and even tho he used it to show the opposite Im going to apply it here. Korean teams didnt wanna sign their players who were only used as "practise partners". Why should those said "practise partners" not look for a deal where they could actually become star players if they had the potential to? If the korean team he was in didnt see that potential and another team (foreign or korean) believed in him how is it unethical to approach him to offer him a deal? Should he stay a "practise partner" without salary forever because he should be "loyal" to the team that brought him up? Anyway thats just how I see the whole deal. I also completely agree on the PR - EG thingie. They need to stop feeding the drama because it only gets bigger and while it does get them publicity , its not always good one (not sure if any publicity is good publicity on those matters  ). They should ve come out ahead (and not after 24 hours) and said they approached a free agent and he agreed to their deal. It was HIS choice since he wasnt on a contract and he decided for it - thats all there is to it. Was it wrong to leave the team that took him and trained him in the first place ? Maybe , maybe not but if he got a better deal and he feels better in EG , Im happy for the guy!I d also like to add that while many of us dont like it , for the growth of esports funds are required. To get those funds bigger "bussinesses" need to enter the scene. If those bussinesses do , and some of them already have , they re gonna play by their rules and for their profit. Ethical or not , thats how its going to be. Korean scene needs the foreign scene as much as the foreign scene needs the korean scene, at least in starcraft 2 , so I believe they will find some laws or rules to work together with... | ||
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Denizen[9]
United States649 Posts
On July 23 2011 23:32 durbarak wrote: In all that gibberish and repetitions AG dropped some very interesting facts.
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Sideburn
United States442 Posts
On July 24 2011 03:00 TheAlchemist89 wrote: To be honest I still don't understand all of the "unethical" claims being thrown against EG. They approached a player with an idea, told em the offer stands, player goes home to think, and then makes the call. EG was pretty clear that they would not have a deal until Puma spoke with Coach Lee. Because if it wasn't "unethical" then there is no drama. And if there is no drama for people to concern themselves with on the internet then they'll actually have to find something to do. | ||
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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
On July 24 2011 15:09 Sideburn wrote: Because if it wasn't "unethical" then there is no drama. And if there is no drama for people to concern themselves with on the internet then they'll actually have to find something to do. such as posting condescending nonesense? | ||
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gregnog
United States289 Posts
Also it kills me a little bit inside for all these people trying to hate on Alex from EG, he was stating his point very clearly and exposed his thought process for everyone to hear. But he spoke intelligently using big words so everyone bandwagon hates him. You should have been hating on Milkis for just blindly hating and had no real reason or answer for anything in the discussion other then "culture". If you really need to hate someone, hate Coach Lee for not paying his players ANYTHING AT ALL. This is no fucking different then you working a crappy job but you enjoy your situation, one day you get a BETTER job offer which is a rare opportunity. This kid has probably never made real money in his life, and now he will get a salary with travel expenses payed. EASY FUCKING CHOICE. Stop being butthurt bandwagon kids. Makes my brain hurt how simple the majority of these arguments people have against EG/Puma/AG. | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On July 24 2011 14:47 Slike wrote: I wasnt quite paying attention to this , thought this was another "drama" created for a couple of days in the forums but after watching WoC seeing this become a foreign scene vs korea thingie I kinda feel the same way. At start I thought EG "stole" a player under contract or something which had me feeling negative towards them but then I realised the player was a free agent that could make his own decision , which he did. I dont understand where all this ethical stuff come from , and more importantly I dont see why we should care more about what a big bussiness firm (in this case a sc2 team) lost or gained instead of what the player lost or gained. He was on no contract , probably not getting any salary , he got a better offer which included salary and paid travelling expenses so its better for him at the end of the day. If this whole deal is about EG not contacting the Coach or Manager of TSL , I can understand where it comes from and although I dont see how saying "We re signing your player and there is not much you can do about it" was gonna be more "ethical" , I can understand the basis of the argument. But if this isnt the case , and the problem is that EG didnt pay a transfer fee or even worse that they shouldnt have made a move at all since hes TSL's player then I find the whole argument a bit stupid to start with. The thing is , from hearing Milkis (since he took TSL's side on that argument) and reading the interview Mr. Lee did I understood they contract their best players and leave their lesser players as free agents. How is this ethical and starting talks to contract a free agent isnt? Being under no contract means there are no guaranteed earnings for you , no guaranteed games/tournament spots for you and you could practically be without a team at any point if they decide so , without anything in return. Why should this player who has nothing for granted not look out for the best of his interests and how is the team that approach him giving him a better deal unethical? Sure Puma got his training and became known from TSL , but so did the other guys in TSL who are getting paid salary. Also , Milkis used an example from broodwar , to show why korean teams avoid contracting players , and even tho he used it to show the opposite Im going to apply it here. Korean teams didnt wanna sign their players who were only used as "practise partners". Why should those said "practise partners" not look for a deal where they could actually become star players if they had the potential to? If the korean team he was in didnt see that potential and another team (foreign or korean) believed in him how is it unethical to approach him to offer him a deal? Should he stay a "practise partner" without salary forever because he should be "loyal" to the team that brought him up? Anyway thats just how I see the whole deal. I also completely agree on the PR - EG thingie. They need to stop feeding the drama because it only gets bigger and while it does get them publicity , its not always good one (not sure if any publicity is good publicity on those matters ). They should ve come out ahead (and not after 24 hours) and said they approached a free agent and he agreed to their deal. It was HIS choice since he wasnt on a contract and he decided for it - thats all there is to it. Was it wrong to leave the team that took him and trained him in the first place ? Maybe , maybe not but if he got a better deal and he feels better in EG , Im happy for the guy!I d also like to add that while many of us dont like it , for the growth of esports funds are required. To get those funds bigger "bussinesses" need to enter the scene. If those bussinesses do , and some of them already have , they re gonna play by their rules and for their profit. Ethical or not , thats how its going to be. Korean scene needs the foreign scene as much as the foreign scene needs the korean scene, at least in starcraft 2 , so I believe they will find some laws or rules to work together with... EG's problem is they have good business-side relations, but not good community-side responses. A lot of the other teams complaints are really that EG has better businessmen (which, just like Players, is a trained skill set). But, EG really needs to improve its community relations. I'll use an example. Alex from EG said he'd spent the 18 hours between Coach Lee's initial statements until Weapon of Choice working the phones/contacting people. Which means he was working things behind the scenes. The problem is a fire-storm was building on TL & Reddit and no one stepped out to throw water on it. Now, take the recent news of FXO & Sheth parting ways. FXOBoSs (Josh) posted himself on TL to announce it. He didn't make a press release or anything of that nature. There might eventually be one, but the main audience for that type of news isn't other businesses, it's the community. That's the big difference. There are community stories, which are only important to the fans, and the others are business issues, only important to the business people. EG does the business side as well as anyone. They, right now, really suck at the community side of things. Generally, they've had Scoots & Incontrol do that sort of stuff, but they really need someone being mindful of it all. EG would be in much better shape if they had someone that could come in, post that they'll have information in the morning & that people are blowing this way out of proportion (since the story broke around 10:30 pm PST). Yes, it's just triage, but without that triage, fires just become forest fires. Realistically, in the last two big EG stories (SOTG & Puma), EG did nothing inappropriate or untoward. The problem is that things got out of context and out of hand before EG even started talking about anything. That's what they really need to fix, to patch up things with the community. And, while Alex's point about stories they can't comment, yet, making huge problems for them outside of their control is a legitimate issue, bringing it up with Milkis around comes off a whole lot like an attack. Alex really would have liked someone to yell at for shoddy reporting, but the nature of Forums & Community sites is that stories take on a life of their own. So, in the end, EG needs to work on their community relations. That's their major problem at the moment. | ||
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Slike
Greece127 Posts
On July 24 2011 16:14 Taf the Ghost wrote: EG's problem is they have good business-side relations, but not good community-side responses. A lot of the other teams complaints are really that EG has better businessmen (which, just like Players, is a trained skill set). But, EG really needs to improve its community relations. I'll use an example. Alex from EG said he'd spent the 18 hours between Coach Lee's initial statements until Weapon of Choice working the phones/contacting people. Which means he was working things behind the scenes. The problem is a fire-storm was building on TL & Reddit and no one stepped out to throw water on it. Now, take the recent news of FXO & Sheth parting ways. FXOBoSs (Josh) posted himself on TL to announce it. He didn't make a press release or anything of that nature. There might eventually be one, but the main audience for that type of news isn't other businesses, it's the community. That's the big difference. There are community stories, which are only important to the fans, and the others are business issues, only important to the business people. EG does the business side as well as anyone. They, right now, really suck at the community side of things. Generally, they've had Scoots & Incontrol do that sort of stuff, but they really need someone being mindful of it all. EG would be in much better shape if they had someone that could come in, post that they'll have information in the morning & that people are blowing this way out of proportion (since the story broke around 10:30 pm PST). Yes, it's just triage, but without that triage, fires just become forest fires. Realistically, in the last two big EG stories (SOTG & Puma), EG did nothing inappropriate or untoward. The problem is that things got out of context and out of hand before EG even started talking about anything. That's what they really need to fix, to patch up things with the community. And, while Alex's point about stories they can't comment, yet, making huge problems for them outside of their control is a legitimate issue, bringing it up with Milkis around comes off a whole lot like an attack. Alex really would have liked someone to yell at for shoddy reporting, but the nature of Forums & Community sites is that stories take on a life of their own. So, in the end, EG needs to work on their community relations. That's their major problem at the moment. Cant say I disagree , actually I totally agree. Thing is though this is just for the drama forum discussions with people who like to take out of context "unethical" and inappropriate. Its not really their bussiness. Well , it kinda is but its not like they have to release a statement in the next 5 minutes or something bad happens. Worse that can happen is posts become million pages long with people flaming and complaining without hearing the other side of the story but personally I dont mind if I have to wait 24 hours to hear an official story as long as I actually get one(apart from WoC 2 hours of blahblah and arguing I dont think there is one anyway). You could say they will lose some fans but at the end of the day if their side brings a valid argument I think all is well... Then again , I actually wouldnt mind that much anyway since I dont really care what team tag the player is as long as I like watching him play - I leave the team stuff to the e-sports bussinessmen but thats just me so ... | ||
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durbarak
Austria54 Posts
On July 24 2011 14:54 Denizen[9] wrote: + Show Spoiler + On July 23 2011 23:32 durbarak wrote: AG dropped some very interesting facts.
Nice off you to summarize the puma incident, but quite frankly it is unimportant to me. The only thing I don't understand in this specific matter is the way EG handled it. In my understanding EG - in person of SirScoots - was aware of it very early. If I were in EG's situation, my goal would've been - and AG mentioned this on the show - a joined press release with either Coach Lee and/or TSL. Mr. Lee is the one who went public and Mr. Lee is the one who feels "hurt". In my opinion this makes him the root. If for whatever reasons a joined press release is out of the question, EG could've released a statement of their own and the fact that they made the step to contact Mr. Lee would've strengthened their position tenfold. But again I'm not interested in the puma-thing. My point was to summarize the general strategy EG was pursuing. And I was really surprised AG revealed this much. I'm not sure he intended to show his hand like this. | ||
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speedphlux
Bulgaria962 Posts
On July 24 2011 15:51 gregnog wrote: Guaranteed if ANY other team did this there would have been no drama. Also it kills me a little bit inside for all these people trying to hate on Alex from EG, he was stating his point very clearly and exposed his thought process for everyone to hear. But he spoke intelligently using big words so everyone bandwagon hates him. You should have been hating on Milkis for just blindly hating and had no real reason or answer for anything in the discussion other then "culture". If you really need to hate someone, hate Coach Lee for not paying his players ANYTHING AT ALL. This is no fucking different then you working a crappy job but you enjoy your situation, one day you get a BETTER job offer which is a rare opportunity. This kid has probably never made real money in his life, and now he will get a salary with travel expenses payed. EASY FUCKING CHOICE. Stop being butthurt bandwagon kids. Makes my brain hurt how simple the majority of these arguments people have against EG/Puma/AG. I beg to differ. IF, say TeamLiquid, was the one approaching a player from a Korean team, that's uncontracted officially to them and bypassed their coach, the situation would've been the same. But instead of EG, Liquid would've been the ones eating all the shit from the community. You think there's some weird anti-EG bias around here for some reason ? No. I didn't liked it when LiquidTyler jumped on some poor PR guy from EG when Liquid didn't managed to came to an agreement with EG about the EG-hosted team league they've had. I'm also huge InControl and Idra fan and I know that they got nothing to do with this whole situation and that they're nice and good people. I just think that Alex Garfield acted unfairly and inappropriately. If the same actions were done by say LiquidNazgul, my reaction would've been completely the same, but directed towards TeamLiquid. Why they (TeamLiquid) didn't/haven't done it yet, specially since they're much more aware of who's contracted and who's not over at the GSL and GSTL ? I guess because they're trying to RESPECT the Korean scene in general and are trying to "fit in" the situation in there. The hate towards Alex Garfield is also not blind. He had tons of "pre-loaded" questions, as he called them not to be, to discredit Milkis with. To me, Milkis is just the messenger. A translator. Even thou, he did tried to contact EG for their stance on the matter, none replied. I don't think playing for TSL was a "crappy job" as you call it. Winning the NASL has put Puma in a situation where money wouldn't have been an issue for him in the next few months and I'm pretty sure that winning this tournament would've have attracted sponsors to TSL, making the whole team situation a lot easier. | ||
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integrity
United States1014 Posts
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Usagi
Spain1647 Posts
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durbarak
Austria54 Posts
"Being passionate about SC2 is not enough, but being a hot girl is." Muahahaha | ||
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