[Show] Weapon of Choice - 7:00 PM EDT - Page 103

On July 23 2011 03:53 Slasher wrote:

You just got your SOTG spotlight!

On July 23 2011 07:13 Sylvr wrote:


I reread Milkis' article, and you are right. He did nothing but quote Coach Lee and state the facts that were known at the time. As such, it was EG's (Alex's) responsibility to respond in a timely manner rather than expect Milkis to have contacted him or written his article differently.

I had mixed up the contents of the article with the obvious bias that Milkis showed during the show. He was hearing EG's side of the story at the same time as everyone else, but obvously, he had already condemned them for some sort of foul play

Alex's point doesn't apply to Milkis, but it does still stand on it's own merit. I'm reminded of when it was announced that Team Liquid wasn't going to participate in some tournament in the past and the same subject of them not getting to give their side before public opinion was fixed was a big topic on that week's SotG.

I can very much empathize with Alex's situation where he wanted to state his views on the effect that TL's forums could have while being very conscious that it would come off sounding like an accusation. I've made similar speeches myself, and though I considered the case in front of me to be tangential, I wasn't trying to stick the person across from me with that label. It worked out about as well as it did with Alex.

(An example: You're out with a friend who sits down on a faulty chair and the leg snaps and plants him on the floor. A thought hits that you decide to speak out loud, You say "You know, places should provide extra sturdy chairs for fat people." Obviously, your friend is going to think you're calling him fat, but maybe you're just talking about chairs.)

As for whether there WAS any foul play involved that EG should be condemned for... I don't see it. Korea may not do things the same way, but that doesn't make other ways wrong.

On July 23 2011 08:49 Duravi wrote:

Make it happen! He showed on SotG he gets straight to the point and doesn't dance around questions like certain other individuals, and the show is "no fluff" right =P

On July 23 2011 17:37 myth_au wrote:
After the recent drama involving EG and Puma, i wanted to listen to weapon of choice since it discussed the issue. If you haven't watched/ listened to it, i think it is worth watching, mainly i think it highlights personalities. I have only seen Wheet as a caster so this was the first time i saw him as a host.

At the outset, there was a prominent theme that come out throughout the show, mainly i felt there was an ambush/attack on Milkis (the translator). Really as the show went on i got a point where i felt as though he was defending on so many fronts (for even things he couldnt really control).

The show screamed of bias, the host (Wheat) who i would assume should be fair really sided with EG on so many fronts it not funny. He tries alot to corner Milkis into a particular answer.

My observation of this particular episode was that AG (is a complete ass), the later part of the show tried to shift blame (in my view complete blame) to Milkis. In summary "it was why didn't you contact me for my side". AG says it was "legal and ethical" right what he did that is he didnt talk to Coach Lee. And following this Wheat goes or says words to the effect of "F*** this S*** is gonna happen" or "wake the F*** up". Legally i wont comment that it is black and white. Ethically it is a point of view and it was not ethically correct for so many reason, but primarily because AG did not respect the Korean culture.

I would like to give an example of why it wasn't ethically correct. AG talks about it was a western perspective (saying it was right). However, I know for a fact that, many orginisations when dealing internationally OFTEN (if not ALWAYS) consults people to know about the country they are approaching. WHY do organisations do this, mianly to make sure they don't disrespect the culture and to ensure a continued relationship.

EG in its dealing with Puma DID NO RESEARCH and AG does not sincerely apologise, and defends his actions on the basis that in the Western culture it is okay. I don't disagree with this because i am from a western country. However, he this forgets a very important fact, EG is not dealing with a western culture they are entering the Korean culture.

In any event, i found the show to be very bias and often Wheat and AG would often stop Milkis from responding/interrupting. Sigh.

Interested to know if anyone else noticed to above or am i just being picky.

On July 23 2011 18:09 Dexx wrote:
Puma was legally bound to TSL. If not by a written contract then by an orally binding agreement or even by mere conduct. If you are a progamer, live in a progaming house, practise all day long, have TV appereances for your team, get free accomodation or even a small salary, you don't need to have a written contract in order to be bound.

A contract made by conduct is very difficult to be enforced in terms of certain obligations, because it is very difficult to prove that both parties have agreed on that special obligation the employer tries to enforce. But the basic contract is still there. I give an example: Coach Lee wants Puma to play for 11 hours each day, but Puma has only played fpr 10 hours. Coach Lee can enforce that when they have agreed on a right for Coach Lee to do so. But when you have only a contract by conduct, it is very difficult to prove such an greement in court.

All this has no effect on the basic contract that exists, because Puma has lived in the pro house and showed up for TSL in TV games. Nevertheless, EG can pick Puma up right now and Puma won't breach a contract. Coach Lee has released Puma or they have split up amicably and thus Puma has no contractual obligations to TSL anymore.

This is basically how German contract and labour law works. But I don't think that Korean contract and labour law is much different to it.

On July 23 2011 18:28 speedphlux wrote:
Well, similar situation happened in European football (soccer) recently, with Chelsea handed a year long transfer ban for buying a youngster from the french club Lens. Youngsters in football/soccer here are not under professional contracts, which are far easier to be broken then the professional ones, so the situation is similar to extent. I got no idea what Puma's age is, but TSL could have a claim that they had a verbal agreement with the player. Of course Coach Lee released the player from this agreement after seeing his desire to join EG, but you can say this release was forced by EG, by tempering with the player's mind by offering him a much better contract then his current verbal agreement with TSL and Coach Lee.
Since such rules are not established in eSports yet and I don't think there's a force that can ban EG from further transfers for x amount of time, I think we'll find ourselves in an interesting situation, which might force GreTech (GOM.tv / GSL / GSTL) to ban EG players from participating in their tournaments for x amount of time. Would be curious if they try to negotiate with their partners from MLG to enforce a similar ban on EG for their misconduct ? I personally think it will be fair.
As for Wheat side-lining with EG on this matter ... I can just say that personally I don't like it. So far he hasn't "walked" around as EG.djWHEAT, so I'm curious why he's taking such an EG-bias stance in this argument. I got no problems with Artosis being sixJax member, nor with Wolf and unStable being FXO members in that line of thought. People say that it's because of the mutual sponsors, but I beg to differ. So far, djWHEAT has been like a "pillar" of eSports and the many communities that it has. I kinda find it difficult to believe that corporate interest will influence him. If that's the case, then he's just grown weak in the last few month. If that's just his honest opinion, then bad for him, because many of the SC2 community see it otherwise. Which means he'll no longer have the same influence in the community as previously. I honestly think that his sponsors backed him up in the first place because he was that pillar of eSports, not because he was friendly to a team that they sponsored already.
All in all, djWHEAT is loosing me as a fan and a viewer slowly in the recent shows he's put up.

On July 23 2011 17:37 myth_au wrote:
After the recent drama involving EG and Puma, i wanted to listen to weapon of choice since it discussed the issue. If you haven't watched/ listened to it, i think it is worth watching, mainly i think it highlights personalities. I have only seen Wheet as a caster so this was the first time i saw him as a host.

At the outset, there was a prominent theme that come out throughout the show, mainly i felt there was an ambush/attack on Milkis (the translator). Really as the show went on i got a point where i felt as though he was defending on so many fronts (for even things he couldnt really control).

The show screamed of bias, the host (Wheat) who i would assume should be fair really sided with EG on so many fronts it not funny. He tries alot to corner Milkis into a particular answer.

My observation of this particular episode was that AG (is a complete ass), the later part of the show tried to shift blame (in my view complete blame) to Milkis. In summary "it was why didn't you contact me for my side". AG says it was "legal and ethical" right what he did that is he didnt talk to Coach Lee. And following this Wheat goes or says words to the effect of "F*** this S*** is gonna happen" or "wake the F*** up". Legally i wont comment that it is black and white. Ethically it is a point of view and it was not ethically correct for so many reason, but primarily because AG did not respect the Korean culture.

I would like to give an example of why it wasn't ethically correct. AG talks about it was a western perspective (saying it was right). However, I know for a fact that, many orginisations when dealing internationally OFTEN (if not ALWAYS) consults people to know about the country they are approaching. WHY do organisations do this, mianly to make sure they don't disrespect the culture and to ensure a continued relationship.

EG in its dealing with Puma DID NO RESEARCH and AG does not sincerely apologise, and defends his actions on the basis that in the Western culture it is okay. I don't disagree with this because i am from a western country. However, he this forgets a very important fact, EG is not dealing with a western culture they are entering the Korean culture.

In any event, i found the show to be very bias and often Wheat and AG would often stop Milkis from responding/interrupting. Sigh.

Interested to know if anyone else noticed to above or am i just being picky.

On July 23 2011 18:28 speedphlux wrote:
Well, similar situation happened in European football (soccer) recently, with Chelsea handed a year long transfer ban for buying a youngster from the french club Lens. Youngsters in football/soccer here are not under professional contracts, which are far easier to be broken then the professional ones, so the situation is similar to extent. I got no idea what Puma's age is, but TSL could have a claim that they had a verbal agreement with the player. Of course Coach Lee released the player from this agreement after seeing his desire to join EG, but you can say this release was forced by EG, by tempering with the player's mind by offering him a much better contract then his current verbal agreement with TSL and Coach Lee.

On July 23 2011 18:28 speedphlux wrote:
Well, similar situation happened in European football (soccer) recently, with Chelsea handed a year long transfer ban for buying a youngster from the french club Lens. Youngsters in football/soccer here are not under professional contracts, which are far easier to be broken then the professional ones, so the situation is similar to extent. I got no idea what Puma's age is, but TSL could have a claim that they had a verbal agreement with the player. Of course Coach Lee released the player from this agreement after seeing his desire to join EG, but you can say this release was forced by EG, by tempering with the player's mind by offering him a much better contract then his current verbal agreement with TSL and Coach Lee.
Since such rules are not established in eSports yet and I don't think there's a force that can ban EG from further transfers for x amount of time, I think we'll find ourselves in an interesting situation, which might force GreTech (GOM.tv / GSL / GSTL) to ban EG players from participating in their tournaments for x amount of time. Would be curious if they try to negotiate with their partners from MLG to enforce a similar ban on EG for their misconduct ? I personally think it will be fair.
As for Wheat side-lining with EG on this matter ... I can just say that personally I don't like it. So far he hasn't "walked" around as EG.djWHEAT, so I'm curious why he's taking such an EG-bias stance in this argument. I got no problems with Artosis being sixJax member, nor with Wolf and unStable being FXO members in that line of thought. People say that it's because of the mutual sponsors, but I beg to differ. So far, djWHEAT has been like a "pillar" of eSports and the many communities that it has. I kinda find it difficult to believe that corporate interest will influence him. If that's the case, then he's just grown weak in the last few month. If that's just his honest opinion, then bad for him, because many of the SC2 community see it otherwise. Which means he'll no longer have the same influence in the community as previously. I honestly think that his sponsors backed him up in the first place because he was that pillar of eSports, not because he was friendly to a team that they sponsored already.
All in all, djWHEAT is loosing me as a fan and a viewer slowly in the recent shows he's put up.

On July 23 2011 20:17 daemir wrote:


Yea man, EG used jedi mindtricks to fool him into taking better pay and a contract.

Wait what? Maybe Puma is allowed to have his own freedom of choice and if a better deal is offered, why can he not take it? Did Lee not already say there was no contract for Puma for TSL so I really don't get how somehow his mind was addled by evil EG businessmen.

Just really, he made a choice, it's his to make.

On July 23 2011 18:09 Dexx wrote:
Puma was legally bound to TSL. If not by a written contract then by an orally binding agreement or even by mere conduct. If you are a progamer, live in a progaming house, practise all day long, have TV appereances for your team, get free accomodation or even a small salary, you don't need to have a written contract in order to be bound.

A contract made by conduct is very difficult to be enforced in terms of certain obligations, because it is very difficult to prove that both parties have agreed on that special obligation the employer tries to enforce. But the basic contract is still there. I give an example: Coach Lee wants Puma to play for 11 hours each day, but Puma has only played fpr 10 hours. Coach Lee can enforce that when they have agreed on a right for Coach Lee to do so. But when you have only a contract by conduct, it is very difficult to prove such an greement in court.

All this has no effect on the basic contract that exists, because Puma has lived in the pro house and showed up for TSL in TV games. Nevertheless, EG can pick Puma up right now and Puma won't breach a contract. Coach Lee has released Puma or they have split up amicably and thus Puma has no contractual obligations to TSL anymore.

This is basically how German contract and labour law works. But I don't think that Korean contract and labour law is much different to it.