|
if u leave it imbalanced without patching it ppl simply stop playing
take me for example, i lost motivation ever since i realized it was imbalanced and after each patch i play games until i realize its imbalanced again
i dont enjoy playing if i know its not balanced, i dont enjoy winning if i know i didnt win because of me. and i also dont find it inspiring to lose if i know it wasnt my fault.
i think they should keep up the rate of patches as they r not or even faster, in my eyes its very obvious to me the problems r. and after each patch they nerf everything we have talked about should be nerfed, so its not like us at TL dont jump to conclusions. if 90% agree on a change then it should be done imo
|
On April 16 2010 06:05 St3MoR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 05:58 Antimage wrote:
From 1998 to 2004 there was a very small pro scene in Starcraft 1. SC 2 hasn't even come out yet and there is a huge market already developing for it. And you want to wait around for strategy development? you made me lol LOL
made me think of the number of people at the gillette finals and then made me rage
|
i'm afraid that the metagame is going to cause blizzard to wreck the game in future beta patches.
please don't nerf flavour of the month just because 'too many people are using it'. this is what killed off world of snoreshaft pvp and really damaged guildwars back in the day.
|
Calgary26004 Posts
On April 16 2010 06:14 MorroW wrote:
if u leave it imbalanced without patching it ppl simply stop playing
take me for example, i lost motivation ever since i realized it was imbalanced and after each patch i play games until i realize its imbalanced again
i dont enjoy playing if i know its not balanced, i dont enjoy winning if i know i didnt win because of me. and i also dont find it inspiring to lose if i know it wasnt my fault.
i think they should keep up the rate of patches as they r not or even faster, in my eyes its very obvious to me the problems r. and after each patch they nerf everything we have talked about should be nerfed, so its not like us at TL dont jump to conclusions. if 90% agree on a change then it should be done imo
How do you explain StarCraft after 1.08 going through several waves of imbalance despite never being patched? Are people really silly enough to thing "It's so simple just fix it"? Making the right fixes is exceedingly difficult. Don't kid yourself - you wouldn't be able to balance the game better than it's being done.
|
Okay, I think I can summarize this in another way.
Basically, what Nony is saying is that - look, if we view playing SC 2 as a learning process, then most people are learning the wrong things. To be really solid as a SC 2 player and as a RTS player in general, you need to improve your mechanics, your game sense, and your ability to operate under pressure. Right now, however, the vast majority of SC 2 players aren't doing that. Instead, they're improving their execution of a very narrow set of strategies that just happen to work well under the current meta-game.
This has three undesirable consequences:
1. It's detrimental to the ranking system, because you get a bunch of people at the top of platinum who are actually terrible because they got there by virtue of knowing how to execute one or two strategies really well, simply because they work under the current meta-game.
2. It's detrimental to the evolution of SC 2 gameplay, because you fail to explore most of the strategic possibilities available and are instead constrained to a small set of cookie-cutter strategies and counter-strategies until you lose more games than you win, at which point you switch to another small set of cookie-cutter strategies and counter-strategies.
3. It's detrimental to the development of you as a player, because learning how to execute one or two strategies really well doesn't actually make you a great player in general. A truly solid player is versatile and can respond effectively to any situation. By doing these meta-game-optimal strategies over and over again, you are only improving your ability to perform these strategies, and not to play SC 2 overall.
For those who saw Day9's 100th cast, it's basically what he talked about when he referred to his progression from doing a muta all-in on The Small Divide, to doing a strategy that actually has a follow-up, to becoming aware of his opponents' strategies and responding appropriately, and then ultimately to doing just very solid strategies that could work regardless of whether his opponents knew they were coming.
|
Yeah, the amount of undiscovered depth that people stumbled upon is why brood war was good. If they'd messed about with balance after 1.08 we wouldn't even have been playing the same game, for all we know it could've ended up stupidly imbalanced and died after a year. The way Brood War played out it truly is the luckiest game in history, though.
People are still finding new abusable things every single day with this game, you really have to give it some time. Apart from tvp I think the game is in a pretty good state right now balance wise and is miles, absolutely miles ahead of any other RTS thats only been in beta for 2 months.
|
On April 16 2010 06:14 MorroW wrote:
if u leave it imbalanced without patching it ppl simply stop playing
take me for example, i lost motivation ever since i realized it was imbalanced and after each patch i play games until i realize its imbalanced again
i dont enjoy playing if i know its not balanced, i dont enjoy winning if i know i didnt win because of me. and i also dont find it inspiring to lose if i know it wasnt my fault.
i think they should keep up the rate of patches as they r not or even faster, in my eyes its very obvious to me the problems r. and after each patch they nerf everything we have talked about should be nerfed, so its not like us at TL dont jump to conclusions. if 90% agree on a change then it should be done imo
You don't actually know if there is an imbalance and that's the whole point that some people are trying to make. Sure you might be correct that there is an imbalance but you can't have the presumptuous attitude that you're winning because of balance or losing because of balance.
It's one thing to suggest imbalances and talk about them, get feedback, have games played, get more feedback, talk about them, and get more data from games played, repeat, to see if there is really is an imbalance. This is an incredibly long process if you want things done right. But when a lot of people play a couple hundred ladder games (this is a very small amount) and claim some clear imbalance that is so obvious and Blizzard doesn't know what they are doing then it's just egotistical.
|
I try... and fail 80% of the time T_T...
Maybe if I was 15 and didn't have a life, I'd have time to develop, investigate, experiment, etc, etc, etc... but when you come home every night after a long day at work, tired as a mutha... you just really wanna play some games, drink a couple of beers and hope your girl/wife doesn't start bitching about some shit....... lol
Speaking of which... personal question...
How do you do it?!?! Being married and all... I feel like SC2/Girlfriend/Work/School just CANNOT co-exist... "/
|
On April 16 2010 04:32 avilo wrote:
good post, but metagame is actually just the theoretically best possible way to play the game at a specific point in time.
No it doesn't
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming
|
this is not a game like chess contains very deep and different strategies. one year later there will be only a couple of proven and working strategies which players stick to.
|
On April 16 2010 06:20 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 06:14 MorroW wrote:
if u leave it imbalanced without patching it ppl simply stop playing
take me for example, i lost motivation ever since i realized it was imbalanced and after each patch i play games until i realize its imbalanced again
i dont enjoy playing if i know its not balanced, i dont enjoy winning if i know i didnt win because of me. and i also dont find it inspiring to lose if i know it wasnt my fault.
i think they should keep up the rate of patches as they r not or even faster, in my eyes its very obvious to me the problems r. and after each patch they nerf everything we have talked about should be nerfed, so its not like us at TL dont jump to conclusions. if 90% agree on a change then it should be done imo How do you explain StarCraft after 1.08 going through several waves of imbalance despite never being patched? Are people really silly enough to thing "It's so simple just fix it"? Making the right fixes is exceedingly difficult. Don't kid yourself - you wouldn't be able to balance the game better than it's being done.
Could you clarify these periods of imbalance after 1.08? It is only a personal opinion, and I only know from 1999 to 2003 as that was when my brother and myself were "decent", but I do not recall ever feeling something was imbalanced. I always placed top 64 or higher in USA tournaments, and my younger brother went so far as to take 2nd at the WCG USA finals in 2002 (qualifying for the grand finals). I've seen PvZ mentioned during this time period - yet we were both statistically slightly worse against Terran (often resorting to cheese) and found PvZ to be an even matchup (albeit with few strategic possibilities at the time).
Basically.... do you have specific examples of a majority of top players saying "X unit or strat" is imbalanced post 1.08? Yes, there are those who argued X matchup was broken, but I do not recall instances of top players universally agreeing what units needed to be changed or adjusted. In some cases, there has been fairly universal agreement on a specific unit or strat in SC2, and so was wondering if you could point me to the same thing occurring in Starcraft?
|
Calgary26004 Posts
On April 16 2010 06:51 [-Bluewolf-] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 06:20 Chill wrote:On April 16 2010 06:14 MorroW wrote:
if u leave it imbalanced without patching it ppl simply stop playing
take me for example, i lost motivation ever since i realized it was imbalanced and after each patch i play games until i realize its imbalanced again
i dont enjoy playing if i know its not balanced, i dont enjoy winning if i know i didnt win because of me. and i also dont find it inspiring to lose if i know it wasnt my fault.
i think they should keep up the rate of patches as they r not or even faster, in my eyes its very obvious to me the problems r. and after each patch they nerf everything we have talked about should be nerfed, so its not like us at TL dont jump to conclusions. if 90% agree on a change then it should be done imo How do you explain StarCraft after 1.08 going through several waves of imbalance despite never being patched? Are people really silly enough to thing "It's so simple just fix it"? Making the right fixes is exceedingly difficult. Don't kid yourself - you wouldn't be able to balance the game better than it's being done. Could you clarify these periods of imbalance after 1.08? It is only a personal opinion, and I only know from 1999 to 2003 as that was when my brother and myself were "decent", but I do not recall ever feeling something was imbalanced. I always placed top 64 or higher in USA tournaments, and my younger brother went so far as to take 2nd at the WCG USA finals in 2002 (qualifying for the grand finals). I've seen PvZ mentioned during this time period - yet we were both statistically slightly worse against Terran (often resorting to cheese) and found PvZ to be an even matchup (albeit with few strategic possibilities at the time). Basically.... do you have specific examples of a majority of top players saying "X unit or strat" is imbalanced post 1.08? Yes, there are those who argued X matchup was broken, but I do not recall instances of top players universally agreeing what units needed to be changed or adjusted. In some cases, there has been fairly universal agreement on a specific unit or strat in SC2, and so was wondering if you could point me to the same thing occurring in Starcraft?
Pre-FE PvZ was impossible. Zerg had a very hard time against Terran as well without Defilers and Muta micro. As for your request of me researching the majority of top players saying something is imbalance, I'm quite frankly not going to do that.
|
Well i just read the whole thing and i gotta say that it was damn worth it.
|
Also, for those who know a bit of game theory, there is a little algorithm called mini-max which calculates a strategy that is optimal regardless of what your opponent does. This is sort of like what "standard" means in this context, in the ideal sense.
|
On April 16 2010 04:10 Terrakin wrote:
so thats what metagame ment..
already forgot it...
forgot what?
+ Show Spoiler +but seriously, great post! Aren't you like one of the founding fathers (or THE founding father) of TLnet? I remember that from somewhere and either way, totally respect u and will do this when beta ends just to prove that even though beta ended, its still beta.
|
8751 Posts
On April 16 2010 07:04 3FFA wrote:
but seriously, great post! Aren't you like one of the founding fathers (or THE founding father) of TLnet? I remember that from somewhere and either way, totally respect u and will do this when beta ends just to prove that even though beta ended, its still beta.
That honor goes to Liquid`Nazgul and Liquid`Meat. I haven't contributed much to the site teamliquid.net but I am on the actual playing team Team Liquid. My main claims to fame are playing on a professional team in Korea and winning TSL2. Thanks =]
|
I think a few things to note about balance that I've thought of recently (not really new):
1 - Brood War probably ISN'T 'balanced' with the 1.08 patch. HOWEVER, players of the respective races have pushed themselves and evolved the potential of each race to achieve balance.
2 - Map design will evolve to complement racial balance. This is one of the biggest strengths of RTS games and SC in particular IMO. The nature of them allows for maps to significantly influence balance, compared to, say, a fighting game.
|
great post nony, thx.
experimenting and adapting to a game situation on the way, figuring out how to come ahead is the key to success in long term game.
regards!
|
On April 16 2010 07:10 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 07:04 3FFA wrote:
but seriously, great post! Aren't you like one of the founding fathers (or THE founding father) of TLnet? I remember that from somewhere and either way, totally respect u and will do this when beta ends just to prove that even though beta ended, its still beta. That honor goes to Liquid`Nazgul and Liquid`Meat. I haven't contributed much to the site teamliquid.net but I am on the actual playing team Team Liquid. My main claims to fame are playing on a professional team in Korea and winning TSL2. Thanks =]
Your welcome, I soooo wish I had beta though lol... just gotta wait a little bit longer...
+ Show Spoiler +and a little bit longer...
+ Show Spoiler +a little bit longer.........
+ Show Spoiler +
edit: O and, Nony ur awesome
edit2:nevermine about the thread thing I totally messed up names (again)-.-
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
