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On April 08 2010 19:10 Thamoo wrote:
Chen, while I agree that overall overlord drops can be good occasionally. I think its the banneling part you're over-estiming. They're really not that great against workers, 2 of them need to explode to kill a scv, or 1 with +1 attack upgrade for a drone.
Thing is the splash dosn't cover enough if the drones are mining and the expo is not over-saturated. What you lose on gaz (unbeliveably important for zerg) just isn't really worth it even if you execute a perfect drop, hence why nobody does it (except if he's one-basing and you really destroy most of his econ doing it).
Also, if the terran saw your overlord and suspect it, he can just move his drones, get some marines there and resume mining, so your whole drop only prevented him from minning 5-10 seconds.
Tbh I'd rather drop hydras, but then its just a basic drop similar of what the other races can do, and it costs more gaz, which as zerg we're really dying for.
cant you say the same thing about storm drops? if hes good he'll see it and move away =/. im not suggesting doing a build around this, just throw it in late-game or something like that. has anyone TRIED to do a baneling drop in a min line before? if someone tries and shows me that 4 banelings cannot cause significant economic damage to a min line i'll never speak of this again. I just figured since two well-placed banelings can wipe out 8 marines, it could do similar damage to workers in a min line
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On April 08 2010 17:51 bendez wrote:
Hi Chen,
Please play and learn about the current state of zerg before you even theorycraft. I find your theorycraft almost insulting, because it clearly shows that you know nothing about zerg and act like we got tons of options.
In short, please shut the fuck up.
Posts made by bendez: 144
Posts made by Chen: 4926
Now pick a guess whose judgement people will trust more.
From the reactions many Zerg players seem to be like THIS.
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On April 08 2010 19:54 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 17:51 bendez wrote:
Hi Chen,
Please play and learn about the current state of zerg before you even theorycraft. I find your theorycraft almost insulting, because it clearly shows that you know nothing about zerg and act like we got tons of options.
In short, please shut the fuck up. Posts made by bendez: 144 Posts made by Chen: 4926 Now pick a guess whose judgement people will trust more. From the reactions many Zerg players are like THIS.
and post made by Rabiator: 32
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On April 08 2010 19:57 fadeless wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 19:54 Rabiator wrote:On April 08 2010 17:51 bendez wrote:
Hi Chen,
Please play and learn about the current state of zerg before you even theorycraft. I find your theorycraft almost insulting, because it clearly shows that you know nothing about zerg and act like we got tons of options.
In short, please shut the fuck up. Posts made by bendez: 144 Posts made by Chen: 4926 Now pick a guess whose judgement people will trust more. From the reactions many Zerg players seem to be like THIS. and post made by Rabiator: 32
So what? Do I tell anyone else to STFU? I am just saying that people should think before "rageposting".
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On April 08 2010 19:51 Chen wrote:
cant you say the same thing about storm drops? if hes good he'll see it and move away =/. im not suggesting doing a build around this, just throw it in late-game or something like that. has anyone TRIED to do a baneling drop in a min line before? if someone tries and shows me that 4 banelings cannot cause significant economic damage to a min line i'll never speak of this again. I just figured since two well-placed banelings can wipe out 8 marines, it could do similar damage to workers in a min line
There is some important differances between a storm drop (which I never saw in sc2 btw) and a banneling drop. First you get your templars back and second, you don't need to invest in a 200/200 upgrade specifically for it.
I don't neccesserly disagree with your main point where zergs can do some kind of funky stuff to gain the upper hand is some games, and I think a drop is a good idea. I'm simply trying to show you that bannelings are a pretty poor unit to do such a drop with.
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On April 08 2010 19:54 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 17:51 bendez wrote:
Hi Chen,
Please play and learn about the current state of zerg before you even theorycraft. I find your theorycraft almost insulting, because it clearly shows that you know nothing about zerg and act like we got tons of options.
In short, please shut the fuck up. Posts made by bendez: 144 Posts made by Chen: 4926 Now pick a guess whose judgement people will trust more. From the reactions many Zerg players seem to be like THIS.
these new posters trying to police the forum and shitting on other new posters in attempt to gain some acceptance or whatever is by far the most annoying new type of poster
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TL.net should just hide the number of posts.
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Here is the link for Korea starcraft2 league broadcasting, there are four links each of which broadcasting different group's match. You have to install the Daum pot in order to
watch this channel. Yesterday, 4 ZERGS made it to finals, no protoss and no terrans.
Find out how this patch influence the overall gaming.
http://playxp.com/sc2/news/view.php?article_id=1935047
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I hate to say it but this almost resembles the WoW-forums.
And lol at all the people "threatening" to quit playing SC2. I mean seriously? :p
"OMG THEY NERFED ZERGZ, I'LL QUIT SC2 NOW CUZ NO USE IN PLAYINGH BLIZZARD HATES ZERG I BET THE DEVS DONT EVEN PLAY ZERG OMG WTF UNFAIR!!11!"
On topic:
The roach and marauder nerfs were needed. I think zerg will feel more like "zerg" now instead of immortal aliens. I think you'll have to use more unit compositions now too.
Blizzard is headed in the right direction. (When beta started I was worried lol :p :o )
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On April 08 2010 20:01 Thamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 19:51 Chen wrote:
cant you say the same thing about storm drops? if hes good he'll see it and move away =/. im not suggesting doing a build around this, just throw it in late-game or something like that. has anyone TRIED to do a baneling drop in a min line before? if someone tries and shows me that 4 banelings cannot cause significant economic damage to a min line i'll never speak of this again. I just figured since two well-placed banelings can wipe out 8 marines, it could do similar damage to workers in a min line There is some important differances between a storm drop (which I never saw in sc2 btw) and a banneling drop. First you get your templars back and second, you don't need to invest in a 200/200 upgrade specifically for it. I don't neccesserly disagree with your main point where zergs can do some kind of funky stuff to gain the upper hand is some games, and I think a drop is a good idea. I'm simply trying to show you that bannelings are a pretty poor unit to do such a drop with.
I agree that I rarely seen storm drops, too. However talking about "investing" in a storm drop - you are talking about an upgrade that basicly gives you
- the ability to drop
- get island expos
- escape some overlords that might be chased (if you include the speed upgrade)
talking about investing on that range lets compare that to storm (which oooh costs 200/200)
+ you need a warpprism which is 200/0 and besides the warpfield(pylon) has no further use:
- ability to storm drop
- ability to use storm in combat
However to get that away from a zerg-whine-because-they-got-their-first-major-nerf and a zerg-strategy thread back to a patch 8 discussion:
Anyone tried ingame how the void ray change affects e.g. PvP? I would like to try it when I'm back @ home 
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On April 08 2010 19:10 Thamoo wrote:
Chen, while I agree that overall overlord drops can be good occasionally. I think its the banneling part you're over-estiming. They're really not that great against workers, 2 of them need to explode to kill a scv, or 1 with +1 attack upgrade for a drone.
Thing is the splash dosn't cover enough if the drones are mining and the expo is not over-saturated. What you lose on gaz (unbeliveably important for zerg) just isn't really worth it even if you execute a perfect drop, hence why nobody does it (except if he's one-basing and you really destroy most of his econ doing it).
Also, if the terran saw your overlord and suspect it, he can just move his drones, get some marines there and resume mining, so your whole drop only prevented him from minning 5-10 seconds.
Tbh I'd rather drop hydras, but then its just a basic drop similar of what the other races can do, and it costs more gaz, which as zerg we're really dying for.
I think TheLittle One showed in his TLI-finals match vs. WhiteRa, that Banelings are actually pretty good against workers. Dimaga also showed that they are awesome against Terran depots too. There are two reasons why Banelings are great for a drop:
- They deal their damage instantly and in an area.
- The attack does NOT force the opponent to bring back his troops to the base ... so you might get a chance to do it again soon enough if your opponent forgets to build defenses against it.
Banelings arent really that cheap if you produce the Zerglings specifically for the drop, but if you have an excess of Zerglings you do not waste larvae to produce these "Paratroopers". Hydras have to be produced specifically for the purpose (or your main army will be lacking some of them), so that might be a lot more expensive on the "larvae side".
Even though Hydras kill workers fast enough with good micro the damage there will be minimal, because the Hydras do not 1-shot them and the opponent gets an attack warning. Banelings attack without that warning.
A lot of units work great in a drop, you simply have to choose which one and you cant expect it to be free of charge. Terrans and Protoss have to build shuttles, but Zerg already have an "unlimited number" of shuttles and simply need to enable them.
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On April 08 2010 20:14 Rabiator wrote:
I think TheLittle One showed in his TLI-finals match vs. WhiteRa, that Banelings are actually pretty good against workers.
Actually I was going to use this replay as to why they're not really good against workers! Most of them (workers) were at very low health, but only a few actually died.
In TLO game tho it might have seem better because he didnt drop, he just hide some zerglings and then directly attack. Which is much faster in the game (so it strikes when it hurts the most), faster to do (less likely to be reacted to) and more economic.
On April 08 2010 20:14 Rabiator wrote:Banelings arent really that cheap if you produce the Zerglings specifically for the drop, but if you have an excess of Zerglings you do not waste larvae to produce these "Paratroopers". Hydras have to be produced specifically for the purpose (or your main army will be lacking some of them), so that might be a lot more expensive on the "larvae side".
Quite the opposite. With bannelings you produced units only for the drop. With the hydra's you can make the drop and have the units get back to your army (or if you can, drop again). Also if the overlord meets some air units like the vicking or phoenix, the overlord + hydra can actually defend himself.
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On April 08 2010 20:20 Thamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 20:14 Rabiator wrote:
I think TheLittle One showed in his TLI-finals match vs. WhiteRa, that Banelings are actually pretty good against workers. Actually I was going to use this replay as to why they're not really good against workers! Most of them (workers) were at very low health, but only a few actually died. In TLO game tho it might have seem better because he didnt drop, he just hide some zerglings and then directly attack. Which is much faster in the game (so it strikes when it hurts the most), faster to do (less likely to be reacted to) and more economic.
Well he got "unlucky" and had one Baneling too few (due to armor upgrade iirc).
They are really great against depots though and dropping a Terran "into the red" is always worth it IMO.
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^ One banneling more wouldn't have killed that many drones, you need to have one more banneling for every explosion radius, which is significantly more.
Killing supply with banneling isn't really efficient unless they're really close to each other or it allows a strong follow-up. Bombing depots for the sake of bombing depots isn't a good idea I'm pretty sure.
The only occasion where I could see a successful banneling drop is against a protoss where you're at +2 melee uprades, so you 1 shot the probes. But that is really far into the game and is pretty much hard-countered by a single canon in the mineral lane...
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I agree with some points that bendez says, but Chen... I put in 90 games as Zerg only (1v1 and some equal number as Protoss).I'm no gosu (I'm at silver), but I do see certain things. Getting the drop is just not economically effective. Overlords serve scout and creep that's all. Getting them as transport was SC1 stuff. Here the Nydus worm works much better.
Against a good toss player, you cannot run your cute banelings all over the place. Good force field usage limits your flank attack as well. It is not fair to compare cost per race, that's their identity and therefore each race has to find its own timing. I'm glad with these changes mainly because Z vs Z was the most BORING matchup Ever. It was all about getting 5 million roaches, and 2 million hydras with upgrades and attack moving.
With that scout tower that tracks movement, any observant terran can make sure that he quickly assembles forces to prevent that. This happens at Silver/Gold level that I am in, so I'm pretty sure Platinum players are far tighter.
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Btw on topic : I play zerg and I think this patch is way too hard on zergs. Ofc its not the end of the world, but it completly changes the way I play every matchup (for the worse). The fact that I cannot rely on roaches to beat early aggression anymore is HUGE and affects every part of the match. Then you add a significant hp nerf to my main unit while buffing the terran and toss counter-plays(Void ray rush and mech play) ?
I'm not that good, but I think at R40ish platinum I have the skill required to correctly feel the changes. There should have been some compensations elsewhere, would have especially liked some love for the ultras. (Or hell, to drops! Make the upgrade faster and cost 200/100 or something).
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On April 08 2010 13:03 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 12:54 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 08 2010 12:46 Ryuu314 wrote:
Terrans should stop complaining about immortals and use their ghosts EMP. They have cloak which lets should let you position them pretty well to get off at least 1 EMP on Protoss's clumped up immortals.
Should any of them be left with shields then use Thor strikecannons and that'll get rid of immortal shields pretty darn fast (or most likely even kill them). Ghosts would be more effective if they didn't cost a ton of gas like every other powerful unit Terran has that isn't the marauder (i.e. Siege Tank, Thor, Raven, Battlecruiser). HTs cost 150 gas each, Immortals are 100 gas each, Sentries are also 100 gas each, Phoenix cost 100 gas each, Void rays cost 150 gas each, Carriers cost 300 gas each, Mothership cost 400 gas, DTs cost 125 gas, obs cost 100 gas each, colossi cost 200 gas each. Ghost cost 150 gas (same as HT), Thor cost 200 gas (same as colossi), Tanks cost 125 gas each (overpriced imo), Raven cost 200 gas (it's a lot, yes but its abilities are pretty darn good), Battlecruisers cost 300 gas (same as carriers but who ever goes battlecruisers or carriers in TvP?) Gas cost? Protoss have an equally hard time (if not harder) gas-wise than Terran, while Terran can expand faster and more easily.
I want to make a fast Battlecruiser build, because protoss would have an obvious weakness against it. Their only option is void ray, which can be blasted away quickly with vikings. So, super air build!
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Roach nerf seems OK but the hydra one (??)
The hydra nerf is obsviously for PvZ because Hellion and banshee rush destroyed hydra.
Thor
Build time decreased from 75 seconds to 60 seconds.
Why not for ultralisks ? :-(
Next step is 75mana force field / nerf sentry damages
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On April 08 2010 20:24 Thamoo wrote:
^ One banneling more wouldn't have killed that many drones, you need to have one more banneling for every explosion radius, which is significantly more.
Killing supply with banneling isn't really efficient unless they're really close to each other or it allows a strong follow-up. Bombing depots for the sake of bombing depots isn't a good idea I'm pretty sure.
The only occasion where I could see a successful banneling drop is against a protoss where you're at +2 melee uprades, so you 1 shot the probes. But that is really far into the game and is pretty much hard-countered by a single canon in the mineral lane...
Blowing things up just for the sake of it obviously is bad. It has to coincide with something else and in the case of Terran depot bombing it would be a major attack. Zerg can rebuild a lost army almost instantly, but if the Terran has to rebuild his food supply first he will most certainly lose. Many Terrans like do have a "clean SimCity" and bunch up their depots together.
Dropping an Infestor on the workers (Fungal Growth plus an Infested Terran or two) might work wonders, but having burrow and move-while-burrowed researched will give you a chance to keep the Infestor alive ... since you managed to slip into the base in the first place the detection / static defense should be bad.
Nydus worms might seem "cheaper and better", but the drop is a lot sneakier and you cant really build a Nydus everywhere. Imagine dropping an Infestor on the "tower structures" in the middle of Lost Temple. That is where a lot of battles will happen and at least a few Protoss will "forget" to bring Observers. You can easily use this positioning to Neural Parasite an enemies Immortal, Colossus, Tank or Thor. In the case of big units you should be able to do it safely, because the model has to turn into the direction it wants to shoot, so you should do it when the unit is facing away from the Infestor and is engaged in combat already. Taking over a tough unit in the back of the enemies army should be good enough. Dropping Infestors on high ledges should work the same way as it does for High Templars and Tanks and Lost Temple has a really nice ledge for that sort of stuff. Building a Nydus worm also shows where you want to invade, so every bit of secrecy is lost. Nydus worm is more for the "all in invasion" than for a simple harrass.
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I think the main problem with Zerg has been that there is no "wrong" tech choice or wrong unit to go. Regardless of what tech choice the opponent has, Roaches or hydras or mutas has been good or decent against everything. Hence you've been able to mass one unit and get away with it most of the time, which makes for a very boring army composition. Nerfing the general purpose units for zerg had to be done in order to add some diversity, frankly I want them to have even more of a niche role (mutas, hydras and roaches).
Compare this to P for example. If he goes Robo and Colossus and you go Mutas, it's GG right there for him. If he goes Stargate and you go hydras, it's GG as well. This means that Protoss generally have to make a very diversed army. Most often a Zealot, sentry, stalker, immortal and observer/warp prism/probe push, all whilst the Zerg just had one kind of unit.
Those general purpose units have to be nerfed to some degree to make for a more interesting army composition. I still think it is a mistake of Blizzard to remove a very unique unit such as the Lurker though, since it plays completely different from anything else the Zerg has.
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EPT
