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I play Zerg too. I feel like the roach nerf is OK, i mean, the roach was way too much of a tank. This solves ZvZ pretty well as I think Roach opning a still viable in ZvZ, but not a dominant as they used to be vs ling openings.
However, the Hydra nerf concerns me a little more, especially against a mid-game marauder army. Using lings/roach/hydra to counter bio is not at all viable any more which is a bit sad i think. I would have liked to see just the roach nerf,and then, if it was not enough a potential hydra nerf. ZvP is going to be harder also, as both hydra and roaches get killed faster by the immortals and sentries/stalker/Zealots demolish zerglings/blings.
It really feel like muta are the only viable mid-game plan for zerg ATM.
Anyway, must polish my roach opening to beat all those speendlings opening :p
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Rabiator, I actually like your thinking with the infestors! I quickly dismised the infestor drop because it took too much time for fungal growth to do the damage (you needed 2) making the drop too slow, but combining fungal growth with a few infested terrans is gold! I'll definitivly try that in my next ZVT.
You could even spawn the infested terran before the growth, the opponent will probably box his workers and tell them to move which sets-up for a crazy good fungal growth)
I also like the high ground idea, I usually just try to flank from the back when I do some infestor play. But this, while occasional, seems much stronger. =)
(I love infestors btw, try to use them in every game that lasts to mid-game)
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where can I find the replays of these super amazing korea pro zergs who are raping everyone
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On April 08 2010 20:56 Tyrran wrote:
I play Zerg too. I feel like the roach nerf is OK, i mean, the roach was way too much of a tank. This solves ZvZ pretty well as I think Roach opning a still viable in ZvZ, but not a dominant as they used to be vs ling openings.
However, the Hydra nerf concerns me a little more, especially against a mid-game marauder army. Using lings/roach/hydra to counter bio is not at all viable any more which is a bit sad i think. I would have liked to see just the roach nerf,and then, if it was not enough a potential hydra nerf. ZvP is going to be harder also, as both hydra and roaches get killed faster by the immortals and sentries/stalker/Zealots demolish zerglings/blings.
It really feel like muta are the only viable mid-game plan for zerg ATM.
Anyway, must polish my roach opening to beat all those speendlings opening :p
yea poor zergs are gonna have to use banelings / infestors the 2 units that were designed to completely rape mmm instead of just macro whoring overpowered hydra/roach T_T_T_T_T_T POOR ZERGS OMG
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On April 08 2010 21:08 duckhunt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 20:56 Tyrran wrote:
I play Zerg too. I feel like the roach nerf is OK, i mean, the roach was way too much of a tank. This solves ZvZ pretty well as I think Roach opning a still viable in ZvZ, but not a dominant as they used to be vs ling openings.
However, the Hydra nerf concerns me a little more, especially against a mid-game marauder army. Using lings/roach/hydra to counter bio is not at all viable any more which is a bit sad i think. I would have liked to see just the roach nerf,and then, if it was not enough a potential hydra nerf. ZvP is going to be harder also, as both hydra and roaches get killed faster by the immortals and sentries/stalker/Zealots demolish zerglings/blings.
It really feel like muta are the only viable mid-game plan for zerg ATM.
Anyway, must polish my roach opening to beat all those speendlings opening :p
yea poor zergs are gonna have to use banelings / infestors the 2 units that were designed to completely rape mmm instead of just macro whoring overpowered hydra/roach T_T_T_T_T_T POOR ZERGS OMG
yeah jesus.... now im gonna get my ass baneling busted every round again =/
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On April 08 2010 21:02 Rice wrote:
where can I find the replays of these super amazing korea pro zergs who are raping everyone
www.roachreps.com/index.php
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On April 08 2010 21:11 lol.Froste wrote:
yeah jesus.... now im gonna get my ass baneling busted every round again =/
Do a barrack-depot-barrack wall. The depot is between the barrack and the factory and at the back of the wall. Now place a marauder between the barrack and the factory. It now takes 14 bannelings to break your wall instead of 5.
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On April 08 2010 21:08 duckhunt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 20:56 Tyrran wrote:
I play Zerg too. I feel like the roach nerf is OK, i mean, the roach was way too much of a tank. This solves ZvZ pretty well as I think Roach opning a still viable in ZvZ, but not a dominant as they used to be vs ling openings.
However, the Hydra nerf concerns me a little more, especially against a mid-game marauder army. Using lings/roach/hydra to counter bio is not at all viable any more which is a bit sad i think. I would have liked to see just the roach nerf,and then, if it was not enough a potential hydra nerf. ZvP is going to be harder also, as both hydra and roaches get killed faster by the immortals and sentries/stalker/Zealots demolish zerglings/blings.
It really feel like muta are the only viable mid-game plan for zerg ATM.
Anyway, must polish my roach opening to beat all those speendlings opening :p
yea poor zergs are gonna have to use banelings / infestors the 2 units that were designed to completely rape mmm instead of just macro whoring overpowered hydra/roach T_T_T_T_T_T POOR ZERGS OMG
Hey, you were complaining to have Mech + Bio viable, let us complain to have Hydra and muta viable =p.
Anyway, i was not QQ-ing, even if it migth have sounded like it 
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ZvT needs to end earlygame, else it's game over.
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On April 08 2010 13:03 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 12:54 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 08 2010 12:46 Ryuu314 wrote:
Terrans should stop complaining about immortals and use their ghosts EMP. They have cloak which lets should let you position them pretty well to get off at least 1 EMP on Protoss's clumped up immortals.
Should any of them be left with shields then use Thor strikecannons and that'll get rid of immortal shields pretty darn fast (or most likely even kill them). Ghosts would be more effective if they didn't cost a ton of gas like every other powerful unit Terran has that isn't the marauder (i.e. Siege Tank, Thor, Raven, Battlecruiser). HTs cost 150 gas each, Immortals are 100 gas each, Sentries are also 100 gas each, Phoenix cost 100 gas each, Void rays cost 150 gas each, Carriers cost 300 gas each, Mothership cost 400 gas, DTs cost 125 gas, obs cost 100 gas each, colossi cost 200 gas each. Ghost cost 150 gas (same as HT), Thor cost 200 gas (same as colossi), Tanks cost 125 gas each (overpriced imo), Raven cost 200 gas (it's a lot, yes but its abilities are pretty darn good), Battlecruisers cost 300 gas (same as carriers but who ever goes battlecruisers or carriers in TvP?) Gas cost? Protoss have an equally hard time (if not harder) gas-wise than Terran, while Terran can expand faster and more easily.
Terran can't expand faster now because marauders can't hold down an expo, 3 warpgate rush works really well now and an immortal timing push will kill an expo like nobody's business.
Also one ghost can't EMP an army with only a few immortals mixed in with zealot stalker due to the size of the army vs EMP blast radius, and now marauders are useless against zealots now due to lack of slow, and marines were always useless to begin with.
So now Terran has to wait for mech with ghost while Protoss can just expand and take the entire map.
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On April 08 2010 22:29 Kyo Yuy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 13:03 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 08 2010 12:54 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 08 2010 12:46 Ryuu314 wrote:
Terrans should stop complaining about immortals and use their ghosts EMP. They have cloak which lets should let you position them pretty well to get off at least 1 EMP on Protoss's clumped up immortals.
Should any of them be left with shields then use Thor strikecannons and that'll get rid of immortal shields pretty darn fast (or most likely even kill them). Ghosts would be more effective if they didn't cost a ton of gas like every other powerful unit Terran has that isn't the marauder (i.e. Siege Tank, Thor, Raven, Battlecruiser). HTs cost 150 gas each, Immortals are 100 gas each, Sentries are also 100 gas each, Phoenix cost 100 gas each, Void rays cost 150 gas each, Carriers cost 300 gas each, Mothership cost 400 gas, DTs cost 125 gas, obs cost 100 gas each, colossi cost 200 gas each. Ghost cost 150 gas (same as HT), Thor cost 200 gas (same as colossi), Tanks cost 125 gas each (overpriced imo), Raven cost 200 gas (it's a lot, yes but its abilities are pretty darn good), Battlecruisers cost 300 gas (same as carriers but who ever goes battlecruisers or carriers in TvP?) Gas cost? Protoss have an equally hard time (if not harder) gas-wise than Terran, while Terran can expand faster and more easily. Terran can't expand faster now because marauders can't hold down an expo, 3 warpgate rush works really well now and an immortal timing push will kill an expo like nobody's business. Also one ghost can't EMP an army with only a few immortals mixed in with zealot stalker due to the size of the army vs EMP blast radius, and now marauders are useless against zealots now due to lack of slow, and marines were always useless to begin with. So now Terran has to wait for mech with ghost while Protoss can just expand and take the entire map.
How can terran go mech vs protoss when immortals totally destroy it?
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Anyone tried dropping banelings into workers?
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On April 08 2010 22:37 wintergt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 22:29 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 08 2010 13:03 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 08 2010 12:54 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 08 2010 12:46 Ryuu314 wrote:
Terrans should stop complaining about immortals and use their ghosts EMP. They have cloak which lets should let you position them pretty well to get off at least 1 EMP on Protoss's clumped up immortals.
Should any of them be left with shields then use Thor strikecannons and that'll get rid of immortal shields pretty darn fast (or most likely even kill them). Ghosts would be more effective if they didn't cost a ton of gas like every other powerful unit Terran has that isn't the marauder (i.e. Siege Tank, Thor, Raven, Battlecruiser). HTs cost 150 gas each, Immortals are 100 gas each, Sentries are also 100 gas each, Phoenix cost 100 gas each, Void rays cost 150 gas each, Carriers cost 300 gas each, Mothership cost 400 gas, DTs cost 125 gas, obs cost 100 gas each, colossi cost 200 gas each. Ghost cost 150 gas (same as HT), Thor cost 200 gas (same as colossi), Tanks cost 125 gas each (overpriced imo), Raven cost 200 gas (it's a lot, yes but its abilities are pretty darn good), Battlecruisers cost 300 gas (same as carriers but who ever goes battlecruisers or carriers in TvP?) Gas cost? Protoss have an equally hard time (if not harder) gas-wise than Terran, while Terran can expand faster and more easily. Terran can't expand faster now because marauders can't hold down an expo, 3 warpgate rush works really well now and an immortal timing push will kill an expo like nobody's business. Also one ghost can't EMP an army with only a few immortals mixed in with zealot stalker due to the size of the army vs EMP blast radius, and now marauders are useless against zealots now due to lack of slow, and marines were always useless to begin with. So now Terran has to wait for mech with ghost while Protoss can just expand and take the entire map. How can terran go mech vs protoss when immortals totally destroy it?
ghost
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On April 08 2010 22:29 Kyo Yuy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 13:03 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 08 2010 12:54 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 08 2010 12:46 Ryuu314 wrote:
Terrans should stop complaining about immortals and use their ghosts EMP. They have cloak which lets should let you position them pretty well to get off at least 1 EMP on Protoss's clumped up immortals.
Should any of them be left with shields then use Thor strikecannons and that'll get rid of immortal shields pretty darn fast (or most likely even kill them). Ghosts would be more effective if they didn't cost a ton of gas like every other powerful unit Terran has that isn't the marauder (i.e. Siege Tank, Thor, Raven, Battlecruiser). HTs cost 150 gas each, Immortals are 100 gas each, Sentries are also 100 gas each, Phoenix cost 100 gas each, Void rays cost 150 gas each, Carriers cost 300 gas each, Mothership cost 400 gas, DTs cost 125 gas, obs cost 100 gas each, colossi cost 200 gas each. Ghost cost 150 gas (same as HT), Thor cost 200 gas (same as colossi), Tanks cost 125 gas each (overpriced imo), Raven cost 200 gas (it's a lot, yes but its abilities are pretty darn good), Battlecruisers cost 300 gas (same as carriers but who ever goes battlecruisers or carriers in TvP?) Gas cost? Protoss have an equally hard time (if not harder) gas-wise than Terran, while Terran can expand faster and more easily. Terran can't expand faster now because marauders can't hold down an expo, 3 warpgate rush works really well now and an immortal timing push will kill an expo like nobody's business. Also one ghost can't EMP an army with only a few immortals mixed in with zealot stalker due to the size of the army vs EMP blast radius, and now marauders are useless against zealots now due to lack of slow, and marines were always useless to begin with. So now Terran has to wait for mech with ghost while Protoss can just expand and take the entire map.
Well - was it fair that a Terran could easily expand and hold off any aggression from Protoss that couldn't expand himself that wasn't a very well timed timing-attack, which is basically an all-in against Marauders from Patch7 and before? I don't think so. ^^'
And EMP+Marauders is still heavily overpowered. With 2-3 Ghosts and Marauders with Stim+Concussive, No Protoss-Army can win in a direct confrontation. If Terran starts using Ghosts smartly and not just EMP-ing when attacking, like cloaking and sniping and EMP'ing Templars before they can Storm, it's even impossible to win in the Lategame with stuff like Collossi, Templer etc.
Only way P can win is by winning early with a timing-attack or very good pressure or by harrassing extremely well with DT's, Immo-Drops etc.
I was writing EMP isn't that good myself, cuz I used it wrong when I was playing Terran, but if you use it when the stimmed Marauders have the whole Toss-Army pinned down so they cant evade or flee, it's GG every single time for the Toss. I try not to use Immortals so often, because they don't counter Marauders anymore as soon as one Ghost is on the field, but it's not easier with Snetrys, cuz they suck without Energy and Zelots without sentrys don't do much either.
I basically go for 2-gate Stalker and pressure early on, only take an Expansion if Terran does as well and try to go for fast DT's to contain and harrass the Terran a bit. Then maybe HT's or Collossi, which can work against Ghosts if you spread them well and the Terran does not abuse the Ghosts sniper-round, cloaking etc. which most of the good Terrans will do... But besides the deadly Marauder+EMP-combo, TvP is very funny and IMHO quite balanced, although Tanks seems incredibly good atm.
I don't really know what can be done about EMP, but I guess changing the EMP won't work too well, cuz it's either gonna still be very powerful but a bit later on (like when you needed to research EMP or when it would cost more Energy - so Terran would just w8 a bit longer before the timing-attack; reall no big deal IMHO) or it's gonna basically suck (like making it a too small AoE or sth). What could be done is giving Protoss a better chance to deal with the Ghosts, like when Templars would walk faster to feedback or if they could teleport or if the Immortals wouldn't become canon-fodder to the Marauders once the hardened shield was gone. Because it's really hard to position yourself correctly and snipe the Ghosts in Advance, because Terran has the control over when he decides to attack, If you want to stay on highground or at a good spot and you've spread out your stuff, Terran will just take another exe and w8 until he sees the opportunity to attack and then it all goes way to fast for you to Feedback Ghosts (EMP is long fired before HT is in range) or try to retreat (cuz Marauders pin your whole Army down). Even if you have like 2-3Collossi in the back, Marauders will rip them apart after the mowed down your Army within a second.
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On April 08 2010 21:01 Thamoo wrote:
Rabiator, I actually like your thinking with the infestors! I quickly dismised the infestor drop because it took too much time for fungal growth to do the damage (you needed 2) making the drop too slow, but combining fungal growth with a few infested terrans is gold! I'll definitivly try that in my next ZVT.
You could even spawn the infested terran before the growth, the opponent will probably box his workers and tell them to move which sets-up for a crazy good fungal growth)
I also like the high ground idea, I usually just try to flank from the back when I do some infestor play. But this, while occasional, seems much stronger. =)
(I love infestors btw, try to use them in every game that lasts to mid-game)
Thanks a lot. I know my ideas are too complicated usually (I like coming in through the backdoor and around five corners), but thats what practice is there for IMO. So there is no reason not to try 10 crazy ideas if one of them actually works.
The whole point of harrass isnt the big kill, but rather distracting and being cost effective. The problem with Infestors is that most players get them as the last unit in their big army .... mostly because they are bored at the time and they have to build the pit for Tier 3 anyway. As a unit which uses Energy that seems the totally wrong way to do it, since going from 200 to 0 energy is the highest efficiency you can get out of them. So as Day[9] always tells us: "Switch around the order in which you build things to make it work better" I would suggest starting with the Infestors right after getting the Lair, maybe even before Hydralisks. That can be pretty early in the game, but nothing should be more frustrating for an enemy than taking over two Immortals while your base is defended by Roaches and Spine Crawlers. Obviously you need to keep the Infestor out of sight, but high ground is available in a lot of places and range 7 is not too shabby for this. Building a Spore Crawler close to the Infestors is a good idea to have a defense against Observers, Colossi and Medivacs who can give sight up the cliff. Due to burrow you are the one who decides when to reveal the Infestors though.
The actual timing of "Fungal Growth on the workers first and then Infested Terrans" or the other way round has to be tried in a battle. Fungal Growth keeps the workers from moving out of range of the Terrans nicely, but having the Infested Terrans shoot the same workers is a bad thing. It might be easier to simply replenish the Fungal Growth after a few seconds (since one isnt enough to kill a worker).
Sneaking an Infestor into the enemies base can deal tons of damage too. Just imagine a Terran or Protoss enemy who has his main army elsewhere, but who is still producing Siege Tanks or Immortals inside his base with a Rally Point far away. Just Mind Control them (again practice is needed to find out which direction the spawning units will face) and start demolishing their base with their own units. They even have bonus damage against armored (buildings). Just make sure you know where the critical tech buildings are ...
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This patch fixes nothing, Terran is still as ridiculously imba and the ease of just attack moving your marauders into whatever unit combination Protoss may have is still the winning move in every single game.
I'm sure this all has been said many many many times before but I have to remind everyone that the Marauder is an unit with tons of hp, builds fast, costs very little, moves and attacks faster than anything protoss where it counts (stimmed), does a shitload of damage and even more vs armored, slows if you try to fall back, is tier 1 and extremely easy to mass. How could it be balanced when it's literally the perfect unit in every way, the only thing it can't do is attack air but protoss air is a joke so even that matters not.
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On April 08 2010 20:56 Tyrran wrote:
I play Zerg too. I feel like the roach nerf is OK, i mean, the roach was way too much of a tank. This solves ZvZ pretty well as I think Roach opning a still viable in ZvZ, but not a dominant as they used to be vs ling openings.
However, the Hydra nerf concerns me a little more, especially against a mid-game marauder army. Using lings/roach/hydra to counter bio is not at all viable any more which is a bit sad i think. I would have liked to see just the roach nerf,and then, if it was not enough a potential hydra nerf. ZvP is going to be harder also, as both hydra and roaches get killed faster by the immortals and sentries/stalker/Zealots demolish zerglings/blings.
It really feel like muta are the only viable mid-game plan for zerg ATM.
Anyway, must polish my roach opening to beat all those speendlings opening :p
My feelings exactly. Blizzard has said they want zerg to have more diversity, but it seems they are taking it away by nerfing one of the core strats.
I really feel like lurkers are needed now more then ever, just give them +damage to armored and zerg will be set for mid game. Lurkers were such an essential part of BW, and they were taken out right before the beta hit. Sites like sc2armory still say that the removal of lurkers was "temporary" and while that is what I'm hoping for, it seems more and more like that isn't the case. If blizzard wanted to add them to the game we would be testing them now, and at this point its all I can think of to keep zerg from becoming a single strat race.
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On April 08 2010 22:48 Bash wrote:
This patch fixes nothing, Terran is still as ridiculously imba and the ease of just attack moving your marauders into whatever unit combination Protoss may have is still the winning move in every single game.
I'm sure this all has been said many many many times before but I have to remind everyone that the Marauder is an unit with tons of hp, builds fast, costs very little, moves and attacks faster than anything protoss where it counts (stimmed), does a shitload of damage and even more vs armored, slows if you try to fall back, is tier 1 and extremely easy to mass. How could it be balanced when it's literally the perfect unit in every way, the only thing it can't do is attack air but protoss air is a joke so even that matters not.
I've come to the conclusion, that it would really be the best for SC2 to just remove Roach, Marauder and Immortal from the game. Really, if I'd make a Tournament or sth I'd make the ruling that you can't use those 3 Units.
All the Matchup's would get more interesting and more balanced!
And I rly don't think Blizz can fix those 3 Units to a degree in which they aren't just sth that makes SC2 worse, because Marauders are still heavily used and if the Zerg-players calm down a bit, we'll again see tons of Roaches. It was the same after the HT or DT-nerf. Few days noone wanted to play them, but now we see them back in action again a lot.
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On April 08 2010 22:28 eNoq wrote:
ZvT needs to end earlygame, else it's game over.
I dont really agree with that... they had thier tier 1.5 and tier 2.0 units nerfed... not their tier 3s.... any lategame action is jut slightly less powerful, just like the rest of their game. TBH- the last game i played before the patch i lost to a zerg EVEN AFTER i killed his FE (before he had a single harvester on it) with reapers, and harassed his main's mineral line, and then killed his next expo while taking a 2nd and a 3rd. You know how he beat me? Mass hydras, nothing else, vs my hellions, thors, marauders, marines, and medivacs. (at about = supply for each battle too!). Just saying that MAYBE< just maybe, the hydra nerf was needed.
Since the patch ive only played 4 games, and they were all TVT. Have to admit im liking that mu better now- 4 games 4 wins all mech baby!  (single rax no addon making marines into factory into fast starport to feign banshees, then armory and +2 more facs for thors and sieges. Was beautiful).
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EPT
