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On April 08 2010 06:14 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 02:45 Liquid`NonY wrote:
The Void Ray changes were a buff, not a nerf. At first sight, yes. But what I also see is that Void Rays now have the exact same role as the Scout in SC:BW. Good on paper, but way too expensive, so that teching to carriers and skipping Void Ray/Scout is always the better option, both economically and in terms of strength. Even though I want SC2 to be as much as SC:BW, the one thing I hoped that changed was the 2.5 tier air tech for protoss, because in SC:BW it's only use is to humiliate an already beaten opponent or to make it part of surprise strategies like the Stove.
When u try to replace something in a video game in the exact way blizzard did, u end up with the exact same thing except in better graphics.
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On April 08 2010 06:09 Feefee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 06:00 kickinhead wrote:On April 08 2010 05:54 go4it wrote:On April 08 2010 05:52 kickinhead wrote:On April 08 2010 05:50 Yamoth wrote:
Honestly, I still can't believed this patch is real. I mean can we really have a patch without the protoss getting hit by the nerf bat? It's soo funny to see ppl saying: "Im gonna change to Protoss now" as soon as the others races like Zerg get some nerfs. I'm lolrofling all over the place when reading stuff like that. ^^' Agree. Thats cause people love easy wins. I DONT. And Im loyal to one rase, from SC1, BW and now SC2. I actually like playing the "underdog-race". ^^' I was playing Terran back when they got raped by toss with extremely fast 4 warpgate-pushes and stuff but changed to toss once everyone started massing Marauders, just cuz it wasn't fun to play at all. I'm gonna definitely stay with Protoss though, because it's IMHO just very fun to play and it requires a good amount of Macro (just look at Chronoboost - you have to use it twice as often as the other Macro-abilities) and encourages creativity with lots of possibilities like warp-in's, chronoboost that can make units/probes/Upgrades build/research faster etc. Though I've never felt like Toss were overpowered. In fact, after 250 Games with Terran with easily over 60% wins I totally got raped playing Toss and it took me about 500 games to get back to over 55% wins and Platinum. Ppl tend to see timing-attacks that work in some instances and think that it's easy to win with toss, though they don't see that those attacks are often All-in's and that the Toss is behind economically after the first 5 mins in every MU so you have to make that attack count. I also don't like to play all-in's or cheese and rly, I dare you guys - Play a straight-up Macro-wars with toss against T or Z, with a solid build that doesn't die to all sorts of cheese and you'll see how hard it's to play Toss solid without having to depend on all-in timing-attacks. Yeah I did the same^^. Was terran first, switched to random after the reset and decided toss was the harder/more involved race to win with (for me at least). And yet blizzard refuses to let me play the underdog by patching the other races to balanced levels!>< I suppose I don't mind the changes but I'm starting to feel like they're balancing this game like they do WoW: if enough people whine about it we'll change it. I certainly had a hard time with early game marauder slow too but so what? Intense moments of "oh crap I gotta micro this" are a good thing in my eyes. This takes alot of the tension out of the early TvP game =(
Which means we'll just have to whine A LOT and our wishes will come true - good thing right! ^^'
It's just a wrong mindset that certain ppl have when they look at SC2 and come from a WC3, C&C-background or sth else.
Often I see stuff like whining about Storms, Hunter-Seeker-Missile and other high-tier spells that they're too good. Well, guess what, they are supposed to be very good, because those high-tech timing-attacks are supposed to counter Mass-Eco-Builds.
Other times, ppl could only barely hold a timing-attack or barely couldn't hold it and call out IMBA. What they don't get is, that slight changes in their build can make them barely hold the rush every time and barely holding off a rush without loosing too much eco is a good thing, cuz it means you didn't invest too much into attacking units and you'll have a good economical position.
Also, ppl totally underestimate economical builds and just seem to care about the strength of certain pushes and don't look at the macro.
Have you looked at the income in PvZ once? Even when P deals a lot of DMG with a few chronoboosted early Zealots and forces the Zerg into making lots of static defense/lings and FE at about the same time of the Zerg, if the Zerg doesn't loose right there, he'll be ahead economically within the next 3 minutes! That's why Zerg-Units are supposed to die to stuff like HT's, because Z should by then be far ahead on the Unit-count and have a much better economy, which is in fact the case in 95% of the PvZ I've seen so far that go beyong the 10 or 15-Minute-Mark. Almost anything Protoss does will result in Zerg having a stronger economical position if it didn't pretty much win the Protoss the game and if the game right then and there.
It's just stuff like that ppl that aren't coming from a SC1-background don't really think about that much (of course there are always exceptions and thinking about that stuff doesn't make you a good player per se, but these things will matter in the near future of competetive SC2 - I guarantee you that).
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On April 08 2010 05:10 StarcraftMan wrote:Yes, because the 15 second faster build time for Thors is going to make Thor rushes the de facto strategy for Terran players now. LOL, whatever you are smoking, I want some too!
Are you being dense on purpose? Christ.
Someone brings up a Thor rush as a potential opening/cheese against Protoss. You mention up the concussive shell upgrade as a deterrent to the strategy, as if it was relevant to the build and now you question its viability as a standard? How do you make any sense out of your thought process?
Please stop posting.
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On April 08 2010 06:04 Senx wrote:Where is the toss nerf? They just buffed the Void ray, or turned it into more of a glass cannon than before. Really don't see the issue..
A 25% mineral cost increase isn't a nerf? :X
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Great patch. All the T and Z player that think this was a mistake by blizz plz cry me a reaver :D
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On April 08 2010 06:18 3FFA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 06:14 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:On April 08 2010 02:45 Liquid`NonY wrote:
The Void Ray changes were a buff, not a nerf. At first sight, yes. But what I also see is that Void Rays now have the exact same role as the Scout in SC:BW. Good on paper, but way too expensive, so that teching to carriers and skipping Void Ray/Scout is always the better option, both economically and in terms of strength. Even though I want SC2 to be as much as SC:BW, the one thing I hoped that changed was the 2.5 tier air tech for protoss, because in SC:BW it's only use is to humiliate an already beaten opponent or to make it part of surprise strategies like the Stove. When u try to replace something in a video game in the exact way blizzard did, u end up with the exact same thing except in better graphics.
But the Void Ray wasn't supposed to replace the Scout at all. Scouts aren't base raiders at all, I guess they were supposed to rape air, but since they got raped by Scourges in the only matchup that makes Protoss air viable, they introduced the Sair in BW which made Scouts redundant.
Void Rays could've been decent midgame surprise units, like midgame DTs used to be. You just built 5 of them and targetfire a mainbuilding like Hatchery, CC or Nexus or important tech buildings and if your opponent is caught off guard you have almost won.
But now the Void Ray's too expensive for midgame at one expansion and when you start getting enough money, Carriers are much more versatile and not so much more expensive.
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On April 08 2010 06:18 kickinhead wrote:
Which means we'll just have to whine A LOT and our wishes will come true - good thing right! ^^'
It's just a wrong mindset that certain ppl have when they look at SC2 and come from a WC3, C&C-background or sth else.
it sucks when blizzard's lead developer use to work for the piece of shit company Electronics Arts developing C&C3 (which by the way is nothing more than paper weight now)
just take a look at C&C4... thats not even paper weight.. thats like buying an expensive crappy DVD with your only satisfaction being the chick from battlestar galactica is in it....
EA = garbage, but lead develper for SC2 is from EA... barf...
not saying SC2 is bad right now (totally freakin love the game) but yeah.. this doesn't help...
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On April 08 2010 06:22 PhoR11 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 06:04 Senx wrote:Where is the toss nerf? They just buffed the Void ray, or turned it into more of a glass cannon than before. Really don't see the issue.. A 50 mineral cost increase isn't a nerf? :X
Not when you look at the DMG-Buff. VR are better now by the buck if that makes it clearer for you. ^^'
There's a nice graphic somewhere but there's a lot of Math involved - I don't get it either, but I guess it's true. xD
@NightOne:
I've actually played C&C4-Beta for 5 mins, laughed my ass off and deinstalled it. 
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On April 08 2010 05:58 bountyface wrote:
about Zerg: you all aren't including all of the Korean data that shows their opinion of Zerg being the best race.
If this is true it basically means that most of the foreign zerg players are either noobs or whiney bitches who somehow got a beta key and run at the first sign of having to think other than massing units.
I'd trust the korean data on the races MUCH more than the stuff we're seeing since that is going to be much closer to what competitive sc2 will look like at the highest level.
Having said that, buff infestor and add one unit to zerg to fill the lurker hole :D.
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On April 08 2010 04:11 Marradron wrote:How are you going to mech against baneligns ? helions get raped by them, Thors most likely too, and tanks might take a few out before they fall.
+ Show Spoiler +
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I think a healthy mix of voidrays/carriers might be better than pure of either. I'd like to see a game where protoss goes pure air.
Also to note: voidrays with speed upgrade are scary fast.
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On April 08 2010 06:23 NightOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 06:18 kickinhead wrote:
Which means we'll just have to whine A LOT and our wishes will come true - good thing right! ^^'
It's just a wrong mindset that certain ppl have when they look at SC2 and come from a WC3, C&C-background or sth else.
it sucks when blizzard's lead developer use to work for the piece of shit company Electronics Arts developing C&C3 (which by the way is nothing more than paper weight now) just take a look at C&C4... thats not even paper weight.. thats like buying an expensive crappy DVD with your only satisfaction being the chick from battlestar galactica is in it.... EA = garbage, but lead develper for SC2 is from EA... barf... not saying SC2 is bad right now (totally freakin love the game) but yeah.. this doesn't help...
WTF are you taking about this patch was gold, good changes on all races.
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People think this means marauders are going to be used less. All it really means is early marauder pushes will be less effective. T will either have to waste resources on early upgrade or attack without concussion if they try.
Thinking back to Idra vs LZ where almost every game went late MMM vs hydra roach.... I don't think Idra would even stand a chance with that strat any more in the same conditions.
More muta dependence on the horizon or earlier tech? I don't have enough zvt experience to know the validity of Z's different alternatives to hydra/roach, but it looks like Z's will have to find one.
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I'm really glad Roaches got nerfed to one armor, was waiting for that a long time. No idea why Hydras need a hp nerf, they already die pretty damn fast to everything that's "supposed to" counter them. I think Blizzard can safely nerf the Immortal now as well, making the unholy trinity of roach/marauder/immortal have less importance in the matchups, hopefully promoting a bit more variation in general.
Great patch, either way.
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All solid changes for the longevity of the game. If you want to go mass Marauders, it becomes a technological investment. Why not? With less health on Roaches, Marines stand a reasonable chance against them, among other more generic army compositions. Overall, it all leads to more dynamic gameplay. For example, concussive shot is an interesting mechanic, but it leads to certain situations that it shouldn't, at least consistently. If a Protoss player engages, it shouldn't be a commitment, withdrawal should always be an option, but it's not when every Terran army has concussive shot.
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I think the whole deal with Marauders is that it's really an investment. If you see the player go mass Marauders, you can respond accordingly, and the Terran player can't just change his army composition on a whim. He's lost time if it fails.
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On April 08 2010 06:25 PlayT0wiN wrote:
WTF are you taking about this patch was gold, good changes on all races.
...If you're a Protoss player.
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I like these changes and all, but are there going to be no more changes to the tech tree?
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RIP Zerg Swarm 1998 - 2010 =\
well not enitrely but I was havin ZvP problems already now im going to be firebathero
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On April 08 2010 06:28 RatherGood wrote:
I think the whole deal with Marauders is that it's really an investment. If you see the player go mass Marauders, you can respond accordingly, and the Terran player can't just change his army composition on a whim. He's lost time if it fails.
No ones gunna go marine medivac and forget marauders because of the extra upgrade.
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EPT
