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On April 04 2010 22:06 cartoon]x wrote:
has anyone just tried getting a ton of zealots/ sentries and literally surrounding the marauders with tons of force fields while you charge them with zealots?
Charge has a 10 second cooldown. With equal micro, the Terran player would still come out on top because Sentries are slow units and you need to be able to catch up with the -Stimmed- Marauders to Force Field behind them, which is quite frankly not possible. Otherwise, Charged Zealots are indeed very deadly against Zealots, but it's not enough.
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Fun fact: Marines deal about the same dps to unarmored units as Marauders do to armored units.
Marauder redesign suggestion:
- Lower damage to 6 +12 armored. 1 +2 armored per upgrade.
- Lower hitpoints to 100.
- Change cost to 75/50.
- Increase build time from 30 to 40.
Makes them harder to mass early, but retains effectiveness through upgrades. I think the slowing effect is vital to the Marauder, so cut health and damage instead. Marines will be essential in backing Marauders, and Marauders will be even more effective in dealing with armored units. Reducing mineral cost and increasing gas cost both encourages making Marines and makes them harder to mass quickly. Basically, they are forced into more of a support role.
Of course, if the Marauder is to be messed with, then the Roach needs to be messed with too.
Roach redesign suggestions:
- Lower attack to 14. +1 per upgrade.
- Increase supply cost to 2.
Harder to mass, not as strong. Still good tanks. Combine with other units for best results.
I think the main problem with mech is that it isn't strong enough compared to the resources that need to be invested into it.
Tank redesign suggestions:
- Lower cost to 150/100 and 2 supply.
- Start with 2 armor.
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On April 04 2010 22:09 Spaylz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 22:06 cartoon]x wrote:
has anyone just tried getting a ton of zealots/ sentries and literally surrounding the marauders with tons of force fields while you charge them with zealots? Charge has a 10 second cooldown. With equal micro, the Terran player would still come out on top because Sentries are slow units and you need to be able to catch up with the -Stimmed- Marauders to Force Field behind them, which is quite frankly not possible. Otherwise, Charged Zealots are indeed very deadly against Zealots, but it's not enough.
Hmm. I think you can take charge off autocast, and wait to charge until you get some forcefields down. Right?
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On April 04 2010 22:16 cartoon]x wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 22:09 Spaylz wrote:On April 04 2010 22:06 cartoon]x wrote:
has anyone just tried getting a ton of zealots/ sentries and literally surrounding the marauders with tons of force fields while you charge them with zealots? Charge has a 10 second cooldown. With equal micro, the Terran player would still come out on top because Sentries are slow units and you need to be able to catch up with the -Stimmed- Marauders to Force Field behind them, which is quite frankly not possible. Otherwise, Charged Zealots are indeed very deadly against Zealots, but it's not enough. Hmm. I think you can take charge off autocast, and wait to charge until you get some forcefields down. Right?
Whoa. You would have to manually cast Charge and click it for every single Zealot you have. And Sentries wouldn't have gotten any faster either.
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On April 04 2010 22:17 Spaylz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 22:16 cartoon]x wrote:On April 04 2010 22:09 Spaylz wrote:On April 04 2010 22:06 cartoon]x wrote:
has anyone just tried getting a ton of zealots/ sentries and literally surrounding the marauders with tons of force fields while you charge them with zealots? Charge has a 10 second cooldown. With equal micro, the Terran player would still come out on top because Sentries are slow units and you need to be able to catch up with the -Stimmed- Marauders to Force Field behind them, which is quite frankly not possible. Otherwise, Charged Zealots are indeed very deadly against Zealots, but it's not enough. Hmm. I think you can take charge off autocast, and wait to charge until you get some forcefields down. Right? Whoa. You would have to manually cast Charge and click it for every single Zealot you have. And Sentries wouldn't have gotten any faster either.
oh... it's manual like that. Well, the idea is that sentries would be in front, and if he comes near you you can surround them with forcefields. But you're right this part probably would not work out so perfect. The zealots stay back until the forcefields are down. If the charge works one at a time like t hat, you could instead turn autocast back on at the moment you want to charge
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On April 04 2010 22:19 cartoon]x wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 22:17 Spaylz wrote:On April 04 2010 22:16 cartoon]x wrote:On April 04 2010 22:09 Spaylz wrote:On April 04 2010 22:06 cartoon]x wrote:
has anyone just tried getting a ton of zealots/ sentries and literally surrounding the marauders with tons of force fields while you charge them with zealots? Charge has a 10 second cooldown. With equal micro, the Terran player would still come out on top because Sentries are slow units and you need to be able to catch up with the -Stimmed- Marauders to Force Field behind them, which is quite frankly not possible. Otherwise, Charged Zealots are indeed very deadly against Zealots, but it's not enough. Hmm. I think you can take charge off autocast, and wait to charge until you get some forcefields down. Right? Whoa. You would have to manually cast Charge and click it for every single Zealot you have. And Sentries wouldn't have gotten any faster either. oh... it's manual like that. Well, the idea is that sentries would be in front, and if he comes near you you can surround them with forcefields. The zealots stay back until the forcefields are down. If the charge works one at a time like t hat, you could instead turn autocast back on at the moment you want to charge
We might have misunderstood each other. If you meant remove autocast from Charge and use it manually, my last post answers that. Otherwise if it's autocast you don't have to worry about it. But if you remove the autocast you will have to use it yourself and one click on Charge won't trigger it for all your Zealots.
Sentries are support units, they're fairly fragile. If you put them in front of your army with nothing to defend them they will die pretty quickly, especially against Marauders.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On April 04 2010 22:09 Spaylz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 22:06 cartoon]x wrote:
has anyone just tried getting a ton of zealots/ sentries and literally surrounding the marauders with tons of force fields while you charge them with zealots? Charge has a 10 second cooldown. With equal micro, the Terran player would still come out on top because Sentries are slow units and you need to be able to catch up with the -Stimmed- Marauders to Force Field behind them, which is quite frankly not possible. Otherwise, Charged Zealots are indeed very deadly against Zealots, but it's not enough.
If he's constantly running away, then just wait for him to run far enough back that he either can't run anymore, got too far away from his main, or had to back up his ramp. If he had to back up his ramp force field his ramp and laugh.
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Russian Federation85 Posts
I love you DeMuslim... i don't know how you can argue with wrong values and no one is saying a word. Congrats for having your bunch of fan-kiddies, which follow you blindly.
First of all they have +30 vs armored, then it's protoss only unit which can deal with armored units at all since Stalkers are, well not that suited to deal with armored.
Now i try to sum up your points:
- Marauders are the only way to deal with Immortals for T. (Nah, let's ignore the fact that they counter Zealots, Stalkers, Sentrys, Colloseus, HT's. Did i forget any other P ground units? ).
- You say a Immortal +1 Attack 2 shots a single Marauder, which stims is simple wow. Not that stim kills 20 hp off and that's not roughly 1/6 of it's total hp, you say that upgrades shouldn't matter at all.
- Indirectly you say that you can spam Immortals in the same way as marauders, which is kinda lol.
- T loses to P only due their OP Immortals, if you don't go Marauders, which you "prove" with some dude which is currently smarter as other and know something that others don't know so they cannot deal with it, because it's new to them. It's like saying i know where the sniper is which is targeting you, but i won't tell it you, so you cannot take proper cover.
I hope i didn't miss any point.
You agree that Marauders seems to be strong. Now let's compare this to P.... Mothership looked strong, nerf.... HT looked strong nerf, Colosseus nerf, Zealot nerf.... so if i follow this strictly that means Marauders deserve a nerf as well.
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I was saying you could turn charge autocast off, then turn it back on the moment you actually want to charge.
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i dont know why people talk about marauders. i play P and T (more P) in platinum on place 8 and im happy if they go MMM+G, the first days i thought its very imbalanced but at that moment where you get used to feedback ghosts there is nothing and really nothing a bio army can do against a mixed p army. only problem i often see is that early marauders can put much pressure, but many people are just chrobo boosting their nexus all the time and the first unit they build is a immortal. seriously learn to use sentrys forcefield and delay the terran first, pick marauderes one by one that way and you will get in time your immortal + support units and will counter him.
@ all the whiners who say now "GHOST + EMP so imba and they destroy immortals" learn to split your armyat that moment where the terran has 1ghost you will have 2-3 immortals and he wont have a 2nd base and lategame PvT TvP is in favor of P by far. storm + colo own everything.
i dont get it why people always complain about P/T imbalance, if the only race that is imbalanced Z is. seriously they can expan where and when they want with their 300 mineral hatches and mapcontroll in the early game + they shit per hatch 7 larvas. the best is that they dont even need to be 1 base ahead like in sc1 so why are the hatches cheaper/faster than a cc/nexus?
T early game > P early Game but T late game < P late game
same like other matchups in sc1.
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On April 04 2010 22:24 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 22:09 Spaylz wrote:On April 04 2010 22:06 cartoon]x wrote:
has anyone just tried getting a ton of zealots/ sentries and literally surrounding the marauders with tons of force fields while you charge them with zealots? Charge has a 10 second cooldown. With equal micro, the Terran player would still come out on top because Sentries are slow units and you need to be able to catch up with the -Stimmed- Marauders to Force Field behind them, which is quite frankly not possible. Otherwise, Charged Zealots are indeed very deadly against Zealots, but it's not enough. If he's constantly running away, then just wait for him to run far enough back that he either can't run anymore, got too far away from his main, or had to back up his ramp. If he had to back up his ramp force field his ramp and laugh.
You do that with an Observer that gives you vision and you will indeed have some advantage. After that it goes further than a simple unit debate.
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On April 04 2010 22:24 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 22:09 Spaylz wrote:On April 04 2010 22:06 cartoon]x wrote:
has anyone just tried getting a ton of zealots/ sentries and literally surrounding the marauders with tons of force fields while you charge them with zealots? Charge has a 10 second cooldown. With equal micro, the Terran player would still come out on top because Sentries are slow units and you need to be able to catch up with the -Stimmed- Marauders to Force Field behind them, which is quite frankly not possible. Otherwise, Charged Zealots are indeed very deadly against Zealots, but it's not enough. If he's constantly running away, then just wait for him to run far enough back that he either can't run anymore, got too far away from his main, or had to back up his ramp. If he had to back up his ramp force field his ramp and laugh.
That would be a great advice but stimmed Marauders are so fast, so unless you got a 100 psi amry that situation will never happen.
Marauders are basicly a cheaper, smarter, although lower on HP, still got the abillity to be healed, with stim and the abillity to slow units down Dragoon, and people don't see a problem with this unit?
I know I'm not a great player, maybe not even a good player, but when I feel that every PvT I win is only because I made some sort of crazy all in strat (like proxxy void rays with +1), or a game where the Terran waits to long to attack so I can get +8 warp gates, charge, storm and 1/1 upgrades, I feel there is something with the unit Marauder that is wrong.
I hate to sound like a whiney bitch but thats my experience at this stage of the beta.
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On April 04 2010 22:27 MeProU_Kor wrote:
i dont know why people talk about marauders. i play P and T (more P) in platinum on place 8 and im happy if they go MMM+G, the first days i thought its very imbalanced but at that moment where you get used to feedback ghosts there is nothing and really nothing a bio army can do against a mixed p army. only problem i often see is that early marauders can put much pressure, but many people are just chrobo boosting their nexus all the time and the first unit they build is a immortal. seriously learn to use sentrys forcefield and delay the terran first, pick marauderes one by one that way and you will get in time your immortal + support units and will counter him.
@ all the whiners who say now "GHOST + EMP so imba and they destroy immortals" learn to split your armyat that moment where the terran has 1ghost you will have 2-3 immortals and he wont have a 2nd base and lategame PvT TvP is in favor of P by far. storm + colo own everything.
i dont get it why people always complain about P/T imbalance, if the only race that is imbalanced Z is. seriously they can expan where and when they want with their 300 mineral hatches and mapcontroll in the early game + they shit per hatch 7 larvas. the best is that they dont even need to be 1 base ahead like in sc1 so why are the hatches cheaper/faster than a cc/nexus?
T early game > P early Game but T late game < P late game
same like other matchups in sc1.
That's very nice, but if the Terran has 3-4 Ghosts you're screwed. No matter how good you split your army he will EMP the crap out of you. So far the best counter I've seen is the strategy HasuObs uses. He builds Cannons and Pylons around Xel'Naga towers in order to have great mapcontrol and vision so he can use this advantage to Feedback Ghosts before they actually see what to EMP. But he still has to be very quick and that can't be applied to every game and to every position you can spawn in.
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I am completely flabbergasted by the things some people spout in this thread, I mean we're in beta, we should try to move the game into a direction which is the most enjoyable for all sides, it's not about trying to preserve your own retarded advantage in some area, nor should you be trying to sway people's opinions so that one side gets either unjust buffs or nerfs (which actually happened to toss already).
There are so many people in this thread arguing AGAINST changing the dynamic of the terran army away from the 1-unit-to-rule-them-all that terran is right now. They would literally rather have 1 overpowered unit that requires little skill to use to completely overpower most everything else than a balanced army composition, and what is their argument? It's because apparently protoss had it so easy in BW and only needed to build one unit. This is so bewildering to me I'm beginning to think I'm not on TL at all but on the battle.net forums, not only is that statement grossly untrue, but it also has nothing to do with the subject at hand which is fucking Starcraft 2!
All the while you are complaining about how useless the other terran stuff is and just violently lashing out at the people who seek to improve the game through discussion to "work around" your imbalanced and monotonously broken race because you'd rather stay in your rut of pure marauders than have your race rebalanced in some way.
For the record I think there are severe problems with the way the zerg army works as well, and while protoss is clearly the most "whole" at the moment (I doubt anyone is going to argue against the fact that the typical P army composition is the most interesting and varied at the moment), it still has some ways to go before I'd call it ready for launch. What I'm arguing here is that people are so unwilling to tackle the issues that plague the game because they've quickly learned to abuse them and don't want to let go of their little advantages and this needs to change, at least on these forums if nowhere else.
On a side note I really think this forum needs to be drastically more strict in it's banning policy regarding pure, unadultared idiocy so that the SC2 forum doesn't get even more out of hand that it is already.
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Be it ever so humble there is no opinion like mine!
I feel like it is important to consider the balance between roaches, marauders, and immortals. I feel like if marauders receive a significant nerf then roaches and immortals will require a nerf as well. Terran will have a much harder time dealing with the ever present mass roaches or the immortal push that some protoss users employ in every matchup. Perhaps the real answer is a minor nerf, and a buff to terran mech or something similar.
I am a platinum random player, and I do not feel like it is impossible for protoss to beat terran who goes mass marauders, but I do see the points that protoss players are making, and I believe there is merit there.
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On April 04 2010 22:17 Spaylz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 22:16 cartoon]x wrote:On April 04 2010 22:09 Spaylz wrote:On April 04 2010 22:06 cartoon]x wrote:
has anyone just tried getting a ton of zealots/ sentries and literally surrounding the marauders with tons of force fields while you charge them with zealots? Charge has a 10 second cooldown. With equal micro, the Terran player would still come out on top because Sentries are slow units and you need to be able to catch up with the -Stimmed- Marauders to Force Field behind them, which is quite frankly not possible. Otherwise, Charged Zealots are indeed very deadly against Zealots, but it's not enough. Hmm. I think you can take charge off autocast, and wait to charge until you get some forcefields down. Right? Whoa. You would have to manually cast Charge and click it for every single Zealot you have. And Sentries wouldn't have gotten any faster either.
This is not true, you don't have to manually cast Charge. Don't mislead people... Also you can turn autocast on/off by pressing alt+(shortcut of skill), so alt+r for repair, alt+c for charge etc
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I'm simply not comfortable with infantry units having too much hp. Doesn't feel "fragile".
I hate marauders.
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On April 04 2010 22:32 Bash wrote:
I am completely flabbergasted by the things some people spout in this thread, I mean we're in beta, we should try to move the game into a direction which is the most enjoyable for all sides, it's not about trying to preserve your own retarded advantage in some area, nor should you be trying to sway people's opinions so that one side gets either unjust buffs or nerfs (which actually happened to toss already).
There are so many people in this thread arguing AGAINST changing the dynamic of the terran army away from the 1-unit-to-rule-them-all that terran is right now. They would literally rather have 1 overpowered unit that requires little skill to use to completely overpower most everything else than a balanced army composition, and what is their argument? It's because apparently protoss had it so easy in BW and only needed to build one unit. This is so bewildering to me I'm beginning to think I'm not on TL at all but on the battle.net forums, not only is that statement grossly untrue, but it also has nothing to do with the subject at hand which is fucking Starcraft 2!
All the while you are complaining about how useless the other terran stuff is and just violently lashing out at the people who seek to improve the game through discussion to "work around" your imbalanced and monotonously broken race because you'd rather stay in your rut of pure marauders than have your race rebalanced in some way.
For the record I think there are severe problems with the way the zerg army works as well, and while protoss is clearly the most "whole" at the moment (I doubt anyone is going to argue against the fact that the typical P army composition is the most interesting and varied at the moment), it still has some ways to go before I'd call it ready for launch. What I'm arguing here is that people are so unwilling to tackle the issues that plague the game because they've quickly learned to abuse them and don't want to let go of their little advantages and this needs to change, at least on these forums if nowhere else.
On a side note I really think this forum needs to be drastically more strict in it's banning policy regarding pure, unadultared idiocy so that the SC2 forum doesn't get even more out of hand that it is already.
So far yours is really the only example of "violently lashing out" that I have seen :/
The majority of this thread has been:
Non Terran players: Marauders suck, nerf them
Terran players: Marauders suck, but we have nothing else, if you just straight up nerf them without re-imagining how we will play match ups and buffing those units accordingly, certain other nerfs will have to take place to even out the game
German guy conveniently misinterpreting what DeMuslim is saying to attack him in the form of bullet points: They do 20+30, not 50!!!
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On April 04 2010 22:38 Kaniol wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 22:17 Spaylz wrote:On April 04 2010 22:16 cartoon]x wrote:On April 04 2010 22:09 Spaylz wrote:On April 04 2010 22:06 cartoon]x wrote:
has anyone just tried getting a ton of zealots/ sentries and literally surrounding the marauders with tons of force fields while you charge them with zealots? Charge has a 10 second cooldown. With equal micro, the Terran player would still come out on top because Sentries are slow units and you need to be able to catch up with the -Stimmed- Marauders to Force Field behind them, which is quite frankly not possible. Otherwise, Charged Zealots are indeed very deadly against Zealots, but it's not enough. Hmm. I think you can take charge off autocast, and wait to charge until you get some forcefields down. Right? Whoa. You would have to manually cast Charge and click it for every single Zealot you have. And Sentries wouldn't have gotten any faster either. This is not true, you don't have to manually cast Charge. Don't mislead people... Also you can turn autocast on/off by pressing alt+(shortcut of skill), so alt+r for repair, alt+c for charge etc
I didn't say you had to. I just explained how it goes when you turn the autocast off because I misunderstood the other guy's post. Read my posts again, I just didn't explain it very well the first time.
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maybe powering the tank, or bringing back firebat. Marauders are neccesary because terran sucks hard against many threats from zerg and toss, maybe powering static defense (tank) or adding a diferent support (firebats) to rax and reactors could put marauders in a different position after nerfing that unit.
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EPT
