For this thread to regain dignity, we really need to decide on what the issue is with the Marauder. Here is a poll with some possible ideas - if i see more valid ideas crop up I will edit the poll accordingly.
Poll: What is the issue with Maraduers? (Vote): Marauder rushes are too strong (Vote): Marauders are too cost effective (Vote): They kill Terran diversity (Vote): Other (please post in thread)
Furthermore, here is an interesting exchange between a few people from this thread.
On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote: Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not.
On April 06 2010 20:09 MorroW wrote: why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine?
ur killing every single rush possibility of the terran by doing this, marine bunker rush? yea right like thats gonna happen when bunks r 30 and rines r 25
I feel this is an interesting point there should be more discussion about- after all, you'll never be able to agree on fixes for the Marauder if you can't first agree on what's the problem with the Marauder (if any).
Do Terrans have the capacity to be the aggressors most of the time in TvP? Are Protoss just as capable of putting the pressure on Terrans, or maybe even more so? Let's try to figure this out constructively. Early pressure tactics mentioned so far include:
Just as important as the number of ways you can put early pressure on your opponent is, how effective are these strats? If we can get a good grasp on how strong P early pressure is compared to T early pressure, we can get past the first hurdle, namely: agree on what the problem is.
Excellent post. I'll try redirect the thread in this direction.
great pos except its not true -drops? ive never seen any terran ever going fast drop against toss, why would u do it? how can this be effective. scratch this off the list because fast drop by terran is just as likely and just as effective as a fast drop by toss (which ive seen alot more of) bunker rush? same here, ive never seen a bunker rush. a bunker takes 30 seconds to make and scvs got 45 hp. even if bunker rush was possible it would include in the proxi rax so it wouldnt qualify as 2
On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote: Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not.
On April 06 2010 20:09 MorroW wrote: why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine?
ur killing every single rush possibility of the terran by doing this, marine bunker rush? yea right like thats gonna happen when bunks r 30 and rines r 25
I feel this is an interesting point there should be more discussion about- after all, you'll never be able to agree on fixes for the Marauder if you can't first agree on what's the problem with the Marauder (if any).
Do Terrans have the capacity to be the aggressors most of the time in TvP? Are Protoss just as capable of putting the pressure on Terrans, or maybe even more so? Let's try to figure this out constructively. Early pressure tactics mentioned so far include:
Just as important as the number of ways you can put early pressure on your opponent is, how effective are these strats? If we can get a good grasp on how strong P early pressure is compared to T early pressure, we can get past the first hurdle, namely: agree on what the problem is.
Excellent post. I'll try redirect the thread in this direction.
Once again, as a Z player, i will give my insigth on the ZvT matchup. Before anyone ask, I am a ~1150 platinum player. Not a great player, but not a bad one either.
In the beginning of the beta, every one thougth that Marine > Hydra > Marauders > Roaches > Marines.This led to great mixed armies as each player tried to have the perfect mix of hydra/roaches and marines.
However, nowadays, more and more people realizes that Marauders = Hydras. SO there is basically no need for marines anymore until mutas ( wich cant be rushed or the marauder push will just rape the Z , plus mutas does very little damage to marauders so they will deal a LOT of damage before deing)
I have nothing against Marauder being core of the T army. But my current concern is that the marauder makes the marines useless. This is somewhat true in ZvT, and seems to be even more of a concern in ZvP ( but i will let TvPs expert confirm this.).
tl:dr :
Marauder strength makes the marine useless.
totally agree. this is the problem i have with marauders, ever since patch 6 they took the thunder away from the marines totally
On April 07 2010 00:18 slimshady wrote: Actually, I like this idea: the zealot's charge being immune to the marauder's slow effect. Zealots won't be so useless vs marauders.
the problem is whenever marauders get charged they can just back for 2-3 seconds and zealot wont get an attack off and they r back to square 1. zealots themselves cant touch the marauders in a battle like this without flank or high numbers that causes ai issues to the marauders, the charge doesnt do squat even if it wasnt slowed
A couple things you mention here bring up a relevant note:
I often employ a quick drop/stim strategy on Desert Oasis (though I dislike the map in general), and I find it to be quite effective. I agree that on most maps, this type of thing isn't really that effective. At the very least, on Oasis it keeps the toss occupied while I expand, and the rush distance is so long that even if you lose most of your force you'll have macroed enough by the time the toss army gets to you.
I ended up in such a situation, against Plexa of all people, in a ladder match yesterday, and early zealot charge was actually the deciding factor in him holding off my drop. If he had gone Immortal heavy, the game probably would have been over. Zealots just take so little damage from Marauders, and are very effective as long as you have units that can take shots at the Marauders while they micro away.
Overall on this issue, I think the only problem really is the early game. When it gets to late game, PvT is largely balanced (though small micro mistakes on either side can be game-ending). The issue for Terran is that if you nerf Marauders (even by just requiring another building for them), something has to be done to help out Terran early on. Marines and SCVs have already taken huge hits, and it's difficult enough to micro off early pressure with them now.
I see we still haven't settled on what is the problem with the Marauder. Again, I think it is how strong they are early game - which can be easily fixed by increasing the tech lab build time and cost (to 50/50, a modest increase!). Furthermore, I think charge should be made more accessible but I think that might just be my protoss bias seeping through - 150/150 like blink would make me happy. I say make charge more accessible since it means Zealots can fight against Marauder since their base speed is boosted to the same as the stalker (fast than marauder) and charge always helps!
Other than the early game issues, PvT is fine in the midgame/lategame and it becomes real battle of skill (which is what we all want, right?). Nerfing the Marauder in any long standing way will just hurt this - HP nerfs, removing stimpack and whatnot are not the answer. Slow as an upgrade might be, but I think a simple increase in tech lab build time will suffice (and deal with the reaper cheese while we are at it).
On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote: Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not.
On April 06 2010 20:09 MorroW wrote: why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine?
ur killing every single rush possibility of the terran by doing this, marine bunker rush? yea right like thats gonna happen when bunks r 30 and rines r 25
I feel this is an interesting point there should be more discussion about- after all, you'll never be able to agree on fixes for the Marauder if you can't first agree on what's the problem with the Marauder (if any).
Do Terrans have the capacity to be the aggressors most of the time in TvP? Are Protoss just as capable of putting the pressure on Terrans, or maybe even more so? Let's try to figure this out constructively. Early pressure tactics mentioned so far include:
Just as important as the number of ways you can put early pressure on your opponent is, how effective are these strats? If we can get a good grasp on how strong P early pressure is compared to T early pressure, we can get past the first hurdle, namely: agree on what the problem is.
So let's decide on what the problem with Marauders are!
It's about time we had one of these since they are, without doubt, the least fun unit in the game (along with Roaches, but we'll talk about those another day). This unit is single handedly ruining TvP and 2v2, and probably some other matchups as well. We've had a few discussions already - the marauder cheese, lucifron's boring wins over hasuobs, more marauder issues etc. But now let's tackle to problem in it's entirety, the bottom line is the Marauder is just no fun at all.
On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote: Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not. I have no issues with Medivac/Marauder/Ghost being the core of Terran armies, Protoss have enough stuff to make it an even fight later on. Thus, I think that the best way to balance the Marauder (and potentially Reaper) is re-introduce the Merc Haven (or Academy) and make that building a prerequisite for building the Marauder. Perhaps adding slow as an upgrade there would be good too (as well as reaper speed, if you want to put the reaper there too). This slows down how fast Terran can get the Marauder and hence makes Rushes significantly weaker. It adds an extra tech building making them less attractive in TvZ (making Mech more favorable) and should iron out any problems in TvP.
On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote: Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not. I have no issues with Medivac/Marauder/Ghost being the core of Terran armies, Protoss have enough stuff to make it an even fight later on. Thus, I think that the best way to balance the Marauder (and potentially Reaper) is re-introduce the Merc Haven (or Academy) and make that building a prerequisite for building the Marauder. Perhaps adding slow as an upgrade there would be good too (as well as reaper speed, if you want to put the reaper there too). This slows down how fast Terran can get the Marauder and hence makes Rushes significantly weaker. It adds an extra tech building making them less attractive in TvZ (making Mech more favorable) and should iron out any problems in TvP.
Thoughts?
why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine?
terran already has a shitload of techbuildings, they spend so much time on tech i think its enough man
this woudlnt change anything, it would just cost the terrans to tweak our bo alittle but nothing big and everything is back to the same
ur killing every single rush possibility of the terran by doing this, marine bunker rush? yea right like thats gonna happen when bunks r 30 and rines r 25
all u would acomplish is to add another tech building with 0 upgrades in it afaik, or maybe u want to move all tech lab grades to the academy? its a tech lab its supposed to contain the upgrades... academy has no purpose in sc2 as long as the tech lab is here
terran already has most upgrades and tech buildings needed to play in the game, ur not thinking far enough ;
Let's look at the stats and how they compare to the Stalker (since PvT is the biggest issue, we'll compare it to the "equivalent" unit for Protoss): + Show Spoiler +
The jist of this spoiler is the Marauder has the Stalker beat on every single level - except speed (but thats not really important once you factor in stim anyway). Okay, but the Marauder is meant to be counter Stalkers - okay thats fine and dandy but Marauders can easily out micro Zealots which are suppose to counter Marauders!
Furthermore, once the Terran gets to Medivac tech Marauders become even harder to stop since they just heal right back up without a care in the world. That is, unless you have feedback (and then we descend into the debate about ghosts vs templar...). Rather than continue to expound on the issue, let's discuss possible solutions to the problem. Here are some which have come up in the previously linked threads:
- Make slow a research - Make slow not effect Zealots/Zerglings - Increase Cost/Change build time - Remove Stim
Alternatively, in order to make Stalkers more viable against them I would suggest that either Blink becomes an initial ability of the Stalker or is moved to the Cybernetics Core, or that the Range of Marauders is decreased/Range of stalkers increased so that the Stalkers can use their speed and mobility to pick off Marauders before Stim kicks in (when Protoss should really have better options to deal with them like immortals). I personally feel that modifying the stalker in this way, i.e. making it more of a harass unit which frequently makes use of hit and run like Hasuobs demonstrated was possible vs Zerg, is the most interesting solution to the problem since equally well microed protoss should be able to hold it off.
Another possible idea was to reduce the role of the Marauder to a support unit ala the Dryad in War3. Me and mani discussed this idea last night as we got Proxygate/Marauder cheesed a few games in a row. Simply put, if the Marauder was designed to supplement an army rather than be the core of it (like sentries are for Protoss at the moment) then we feel that Terran would become a more interesting race in general and able to exploit all the cool shit like nukes, mech, ravens and whatnot.
Anyway, discuss away. How do we solve the marauder issue?
On April 04 2010 20:37 DeMusliM wrote: weird that, that game got uploaded of me ;S And the reason that marauders were beating ultras - my marauders were 3/3, and his ultras were like 0/2 - AND marauders are a counter unit to ultras ^^.
Btw i don't like the OP post, marauders 33 secs, immortals 40, stalkers 42 (alot less with warpgates), and stalkers also have technically 160 hp, with 80 of it regenable outside of combat - i did not know immortals built that quickly, that's abit insane,.
As for general imbalance whine about marauders vs P, i have played vs multiple good protoss players who have demolished the marauder fe strat, i've had more supply of marauders and zealots/sentries/stalkers walked over me (this 3-4 warpgate push strat). The reason marauders are so commonly used right now vs P, is because NOTHING else is viable - if you consider marines, the amount of flat out counters they have now is ridiculous - Zealots/guardian shield/stalkers/collosus/HT's - the list goes on. Terran can't viably go Mech either, as much as they want to - Immortals counter that whole building single handedly, and with immortals popping out through chrono boost - terran would need alot more factories to even think about outmassing.
If you really wanna "nerf" marauders, you have to boost something else, or majorly nerf immortals (the 10 damage shield thing, and the +50 damage vs armoured) and making it possible for terran to survive the 3-4 warpgate push, otherwise you'd be simply annihilating terran v p
This is a good post hence why I've edited it into the op. I think DeMusliM has touched on a very important point, and that is that Terran do literally have nothing else going for them at the moment. Any perceived imbalances aside, the Marauder is a very uninteresting unit and there are so many interesting things Terran *could* be doing but can't because it's terrible. It's a pretty sad state of affairs imho.
I thought that this post was also pretty interesting:
On April 04 2010 23:09 Haemonculus wrote: What amazes me is that in BW, going infantry against protoss is weak simply because all protoss tech seems to counter it. Sure M&M will steamroll gateway units, but storm, archons, reavers, etc, all just crush bio. Terran adapted by going heavily mech in this matchup. Why do Terran players somehow feel like they should be able to spam infantry and have it be effective vs high tech protoss?
Psi storm in BW absolutely obliterates infantry. And then we get a psi storm nerf because of that in SC2? Meh, I'm ranting.
Marauders definitely need some sort of nerf, simply because they are more effective than seemingly ever other terran unit. Yes marauders are too strong, but we need to tweak the rest of the terran army as well. No army should be able to or forced to mass one very powerful unit.
because mech doesnt work, and thats the real issue. maybe marauders rnt making the game imbalanced, but the way blizzard has it right now is that all terrans r forced to pump really many marauders instead of doing something else which i think is lame as hell. u should be able to pick mech bio or biomech in every match up, but right now its pretty much biomech in tvz, mech tvt and bio tvp, its not very optional and i think the real solution of this is to buff mech and nerf marauders, probably gonna take some patches to make this work tho since its a big change
On April 04 2010 23:22 DeMusliM wrote: and no, the reason i kept his strategy a secret was he's in zotac today - i don't want to fumble his chances by blowing my mouth off. It's just respect, not cowardness.
Bischu - just beat MorroW, i wasn't lieing about his strategy being good, and yet simple ;S
i lost because im sick and i didnt practice much at all this week, i probably woulda won if i just opened a normal marauder fe and kept on making marauders all game but i really dont see the fun in that :/
another reason im not playing much is just about what we talk about in this subject. its not very fun to play sc2 when tvz is imba and tvp is broken straight up mass marauder, only tvt is fun but it is too revolved around luck, just like the other mirror mus.
Right or wrong this is a good post
On April 05 2010 20:47 MorroW wrote: why tanks shouldnt be buffed to compensate for marauder nerf + Show Spoiler +
i think its a bad idea to make tanks better to compensate for a possible marauder nerf. tanks r already insanely good. ive played all my lately tvz with tanks as my core unit and they just rip apart a zerg army, only counter seem to be air once u reach about 16 tanks. even tho tanks r not used in tvp i dont think that is because the actual tanks r too bad, i think its because toss has too many counters against them. charge, blink, immortal shield and extra dmg, hell even phonix counters them in a sense.
all im trying to bring to the table with this post is that if u would nerf the marauder, dont compensate it by making the tank better, its already strong as hell against zerg.
u might say to urself "alright so we give it +vs armored when sieged to make it better vs toss and now z". well this is not sc1, toss doesnt necessarily have more armored force than zerg does. the core meatshield are roaches while toss has zealots, so this would actually make tanks even more t>z than t>p. i think our goal is to make tanks better against toss but at the same time i can tell there is no way u can buff the tank to fix this issue. the only way we can do this is to make toss counters to the tank worse.
this is why immortal, marauder and roach should be nerfed + Show Spoiler +
so for example we could start off by making marauders worse, how would that effect tvz? well for a starters roaches would be a slight too strong i think because marauders were the only unit that really countered the roach appropriately and legit. so we would have to nerf the roach now, but i dont know enough about zvp to say if this would be possible. immortals is the first that comes to mind that would become too strong. ive read 95% of this thread and everyone seem to agree that our 3rd step would be to nerf the immortal. and now when the immortal is also nerfed the tank is better in tvp, alot better.
so maybe this is the answer, nerf the trio of the marauder, roach and immortal. its the best answer i can come up with at least, and it seems to be the general opinion by the community of 19 pages here.
and if they would been nerfed what would actually happen + Show Spoiler +
1: we would probably see more tanks in tvp 2: massing marauders would be worse in tvp, arguably bad 3: roaches wouldnt control the game so much in the early game like they do now, they also wouldnt control the phase and timings of zvz which also seems to be an issue with them. they would still play a role as a meatshield of zerg but they woulndt be as strong against normal units or as weak against immortal which leads to less hard counters 4: tvt wouldnt change alot, obviously it would make marauders worse but they were already just a boost to the army to slow and attack from behind of ur marine line. it would be fine 5: immortals in pvp would get used less, this is bad but i have almost not seen any pvp at all, i hardly imagine immortals were so popular in that mu in the first place so i guess it would be fine 6: marauders would still be used in tvz to meatshield and counter roach like they are now 7: would encourage terrans to use marines more against zerg and zerg would find it more useful to make ling and baneling again. they have been distant of that lately ever since marines got longer build time
this is why u cant respond a marauder nerf with a removal of stimpack + Show Spoiler +
oh and abut the actual nerfs, i wouldnt remove stimpack or remove slow or anything like that. its pretty situational and it would change the effectiveness of marauders worse in different phases of the game. for example removing stimpack from them would make them totally obsolete in later game, nobody would make them.
and this is why u cant add a slow upgrade for them + Show Spoiler +
adding an upgrade for the slow instead of having it by default would just make it worse early game, and discourage defense of marauders or timing attacks in early and early-midgame the marauder is good in all from early game until late game, so if we would nerf them we would want to do something that effects it all through-out the game.
the part i dislike most about the marine-marauder comparison right now is that marauders only take 5 more seconds to build than marines, which i think is bogus. the other part that encourages this mass marauder is that reactors take twice as long time as tech labs to build. these r the 2 changes they did in patch 6 i believe and ever since fe tvp with rines doesnt work anymore, fe in tvz is totally impossible. we cant rely on marines in early game anymore, blizzard made a good job at removing them from the early game phase
i would add 5 seconds build time to marauders. it would add a better balance in the time of the units in the rax, the reapers take alot longer time than marauders when they dont cost alot different. marauders cost much more than marines but barely take longer time to build.
the second nerf i would do to the marauders would be to decrease the slow. right now if u have a unit running through the map, a stalker, roach, zea, sentry, you name it man. if u see a marauder u dont have the time to run because the vision is so small while the marauder range is so big that he will get off his first hit. and thats all he need. i think many ppl think its a boring unit because it only needs 1 hit to declare its pray as a dead man. most units can make a run for it, its exciting to see if it can actually get away. a zergling running for his life while stalker run after with micro and blink. but with marauder its just 1 hit then u know its dead, no excitement. we want to nerf the slow enough that units like stalkers can run away from it even under fire, but we dont want to nerf the slow too much that it didnt matter in this scenario. the slow should give us extra 1-3 shots but not slow it until death. i think it gives 50% slow right now, maybe a 33% slow would be better?
the immortal nerf would simply be a less vs armored, instead of +30 vs armored maybe +25. thats a legit and solid change, it doesnt change alot but enough to say its fair.
the roach nerf could be as simple as giving it less hp or armor, it already is slow as hell and it already attacks slow with a fairly slow dps. what makes the roach so plain strong is that it has 2 armor, it shuts down damage from marines by 33%, zerglings by 40% and zealots by 25%. it counters low tier units too hard. giving it less hp wouldnt really change this fact so i think the best choice would be to decrease the roach armor by 1
Make terran mech more usefull and I agree with a marauders nerf. If you give terran now a marrauder nerf without buffing the mech, then there is not much left for terrans, think about that.
in my opinion terran needs the marauder since we can't go classic MnM and try to use stim to outmicro enemy melee units.. without the slow nearly every mass melee combination would just attack our mass range units without anything we can do it, or counter it.
You can't compare units 1v1 like stalker vs marauder because races are too different. It just doesn't work that way, mechanics are totally different + you have different support units etc +dude, you have immortals. I'm really sick of people forcing their own strategies and not looking at the game at all. Everyone is like: "I want to make XY unit and it has to beat ZQ unit". NO!, it totally doesn't matter what you want, you have to play the game as it should be played. There are perfectly good counters for everything in this game, you just have to learn how to use it.
or just try playing terran, get into plat div and play vs tosses and you'll see that we don't really have easymode there.
imho if marauders will get nerf then roaches/immortals/sentries need nerf + terran mech needs buff. Try playing terran on higher level and you'll see yourself what are possibilities.
After some testing, i believe a timing push with stalker/voidrays beats a marauder build. I'm not 100% on this but its the only way i can beat marauders effectively and even when the terran scanned it he couldn't stop it.
Marauders are still OP. I like their slowing effect, it makes it unique but its just sooo powerful that it should really be made researchable. Also it shouldn't be allowed to stim up.
I'm with you that Marauders suck, they look boring and they act boring, but I don't care at all that they are better than stalkers at everything and anything, I don't see the relevance. Right now I feel there's alot of units that suck, but fine, focusing on the Marauder; in my opinion, switch them with Hellions. Make marauders the flamethrowers that hit + on light, but decrease their range, and make hellions the rocketshooters with + dmg on armored, but remove the slow (a passive slow is just BORING!). This way the marauders would be better versus groups of zeals, but worse at rushing, they would be worse against stalkers but still fulfill their tanking role. Hellions meanwhile would be a more easily killed but quicker marauder. And then the hellions would have a reason to stop between shots. I mean what kind of recoil does a flamethrower have, really, that it cant be fired on the move?
OK basically make marauders into firebats and make hellions into vultures. Duh.
I really think Stim and/or slow needs to go, or at least for them both to be upgrades... Right now, after stim the marauders 100% hard counter the shit out of every gateway unit, and once ghosts are added for emp and medivacs, mineral for mineral and gas for gas, immortals dont even come out well on top.
I think the solution is just a hard nerf to them tbh, either taking away stim or the slow completely, (having an ability which slows units on a tier 1, fast as fuck unit(when stimmed), when the counter to this unit is melee units, is so so so so sooooooooo stupid -_-;. whilst doing something else to make terran mech more viable. It's really hard to say what, and im not gona even try here cos i dont know enough about tvz, hell taking away marauders slow will probably break that mu anyway, so its tough.
Because for the same reason we cant just straight out nerf the roach, without the marauder the way it is, the current terran will fall to pieces in both tvz and tvp. Either way as always i have faith in blizzard, and interested in terrans point of views as well XD
On April 04 2010 19:07 lew wrote: Make terran mech more usefull and I agree with a marauders nerf. If you give terran now a marrauder nerf without buffing the mech, then there is not much left for terrans, think about that.
I agree with this. If maruaders were nerfed, TvP/TvZ would become hopeless.
I think it's true that maruaders are too good compared to other terran units. I also agree that maruaders are ridiculously strong against any heavy ground unit, and are a little too useful in the first few minutes of the game against zealots. However, (in tvp) after an immortal is out marauders are essentially countered. The real problem for me is that nothing seems viable in TvP besides mass bio, and then you end up in stupid ghost vs temp fights. It would make sense to me to do something like making slow effect an upgrade, but buffing mech. This would make maruaders just as useful in the long run, but make them not overpowered in the early game, and simultaneously allow for more terran army diversity in the form of more mech usage.
On April 04 2010 19:12 bLah. wrote: You can't compare units 1v1 like stalker vs marauder because races are too different. It just doesn't work that way, mechanics are totally different + you have different support units etc +dude, you have immortals. I'm really sick of people forcing their own strategies and not looking at the game at all. Everyone is like: "I want to make XY unit and it has to beat ZQ unit". NO!, it totally doesn't matter what you want, you have to play the game as it should be played. There are perfectly good counters for everything in this game, you just have to learn how to use it.
or just try playing terran, get into plat div and play vs tosses and you'll see that we don't really have easymode there.
imho if marauders will get nerf then roaches/immortals/sentries need nerf + terran mech needs buff. Try playing terran on higher level and you'll see yourself what are possibilities.
Where do you stand regarding marauders and their lack of effective counters? As it stands currently, tier 1.5 units make and break the game, yet the protoss race does not have anything alike as a backbone unit. Or is the fact they shoot GtA make up for it?
On April 04 2010 19:12 bLah. wrote: You can't compare units 1v1 like stalker vs marauder because races are too different. It just doesn't work that way, mechanics are totally different + you have different support units etc +dude, you have immortals. I'm really sick of people forcing their own strategies and not looking at the game at all. Everyone is like: "I want to make XY unit and it has to beat ZQ unit". NO!, it totally doesn't matter what you want, you have to play the game as it should be played. There are perfectly good counters for everything in this game, you just have to learn how to use it.
or just try playing terran, get into plat div and play vs tosses and you'll see that we don't really have easymode there.
imho if marauders will get nerf then roaches/immortals/sentries need nerf + terran mech needs buff. Try playing terran on higher level and you'll see yourself what are possibilities.
O.O Don't post crap like that "try playing terran on higher level" lol i'm plat T and i admit - marauders counter too many units TvP. I'm pretty sure i even saw Morrow somewhere posting that Marauders need nerf and if he posted that - then there really is something wrong with them
Yes, marauders take some fun away from the game and they need slight nerf - reason? Every terran makes them. I think that the best solution would be to make lots immune to their slow, making too many changes may have very bad consequences - just look at the patch that "repaired" Terran cheese rush, sure it no longer is the issue but at the same time nobody is making rines anymore (however marauder superiority over them played bigger part in this...).
On April 04 2010 19:12 bLah. wrote: You can't compare units 1v1 like stalker vs marauder because races are too different. It just doesn't work that way, mechanics are totally different + you have different support units etc +dude, you have immortals. I'm really sick of people forcing their own strategies and not looking at the game at all. Everyone is like: "I want to make XY unit and it has to beat ZQ unit". NO!, it totally doesn't matter what you want, you have to play the game as it should be played. There are perfectly good counters for everything in this game, you just have to learn how to use it.
or just try playing terran, get into plat div and play vs tosses and you'll see that we don't really have easymode there.
imho if marauders will get nerf then roaches/immortals/sentries need nerf + terran mech needs buff. Try playing terran on higher level and you'll see yourself what are possibilities.
Where do you stand regarding marauders and their lack of effective counters? As it stands currently, tier 1.5 units make and break the game, yet the protoss race does not have anything alike as a backbone unit. Or is the fact they shoot GtA make up for it?
Also, one important thing to note is that, I don't think anyone here is saying terran is broken and TvP is imbalanced in favour of T. It's the unit imbalance that marauder is currently so good compared to anything else terran has that all terran does any more at a high level that is under discussion here, how can we fix the marauder AND terran in general so that we dont just have terran massing 1 unit the entire game, with maybe a handful of support units.
I don't believe that the colossus is OP, i believe it does what it is supposed to do. Colossus are supposed to own infantry. The problem is that terran mech sorta sucks so they dont go mech, making the colossus free to own what it's supposed to own. They shouldn't nerf colossus, they should buff terran mech.
I don't believe that the colossus is OP, i believe it does what it is supposed to do. Colossus are supposed to own infantry. The problem is that terran mech sorta sucks so they dont go mech, making the colossus free to own what it's supposed to own. They shouldn't nerf colossus, they should buff terran mech.
give marines 6 range instead of 5 and give marauders 5 instead of 6, that way they wont automaticly lineup so that marines take all the hits from immortals and it would be a boost to the marines as they are kinda on the weak side atm
I'm not saying the situation doesnt need a slight nerf or buff either side, but I have to play the devil's advocate here, let's take a look back at SC1 for a minute.
With range and micro, Dragoons in PvT own any tier 1 terran unit, altough they do reduced damage to infantry. In fact, the only serious counter Terran has against early ranged Dragoons is to wall-in and to tech to a tier 2 unit, not even vultures, but tanks (the equivalent for Protoss would be Immortals of course).
The situation is reversed here and it's fairly similar. The only difference I see between the Dragoons in PvT in SC1 and the Marauders in TvP, it's that 1- Marauders devastate any building. 2- Protoss can't effectively wall-in and repair buildings.
All I'm trying to say is, when people say ''but omg protoss need a tier 1 hardcounter to marauders'', all I can answer is remember SC1 PvT.
This also has quite a lot do to with the high ground advantage that could use a buff imo, more than balancing the units themselves.
On April 04 2010 19:25 Knutzi wrote: give marines 6 range instead of 5 and give marauders 5 instead of 6, that way they wont automaticly lineup so that marines take all the hits from immortals and it would be a boost to the marines as they are kinda on the weak side atm
??? This really wouldn't solve much of anything, considering terrans build little, and most of the time no marines(for reference im 4th in plat div atm, so im not playing against spastics, most of the terrans i play build either 1 marine before adding tech lab, or none at all... Even when they see mass immortal, they still dont bother adding marines, cos with ghost + medivac they dont need, immortal simply do NOT counter that combination as hard as they, in my opinion, should). Not to mention when they do this issue is easily solved by not just a-moving and instead selecting immortals and shift-clicking the marauders.
On April 04 2010 19:26 lepape wrote: I'm not saying the situation doesnt need a slight nerf or buff either side, but I have to play the devil's advocate here, let's take a look back at SC1 for a minute.
With range and micro, Dragoons in PvT own any tier 1 terran unit, altough they do reduced damage to infantry. In fact, the only serious counter Terran has against early ranged Dragoons is to wall-in and to tech to a tier 2 unit, not even Vulture, but tanks (the equivalent for Protoss would be Immortals of course).
The situation is reversed here and it's fairly similar. The only difference I see between the Dragoons in PvT in SC1 and the Marauders in TvP, it's that 1- Marauders devastate any building. 2- Protoss can't effectively wall-in and repair buildings.
All I'm trying to say is, when people say ''but omg protoss need a tier 1 hardcounter to marauders'', all I can answer is remember SC1 PvT.
This also has quite a lot do to with the high ground advantage that could use a buff imo, more than the units themselves.
I'm not sure if i remember correctly, however i believe that marine and medics could hold their own vs dragoons. I think the problem was that if a terran went infantry vs protoss he would need to win fast because toss would just wipe out terrans infantry with storm or reaver later on.
Maybe im wrong about that though, but thats what i remember.
Marauders do need a nerf, get real. No unit should be able to handle an entire match-up on its own. Have you actually SEEN a TvP ? 99% of the time, the Terran doesn't even bother with another unit than Marauder. He does 4 Medivacs and just keeps spamming Marauders, while the Protoss has to diversify his army to defeat - ONCE AGAIN - a ONE UNIT composed army. You can't tell me you see nothing wrong with this.
Just add a 10 second cooldown to the slow. Blink isn't an initial skill, neither is Charge or Storm. Pretty much every spell any Protoss unit may have (aside from Sentries - THANK GOD) has to be researched. What do Terrans have to research exactly ? Slow is given, so is Snipe, EMP, Medivacs' healing ability, the only thing I can think of that needs researching is Cloak. But, add a research to the slow ability would be too big of a nerf and would indeed defeat the whole purpose of rushing Marauders. But it would greatly reduce the sick hit and run efficiency and would force the Terran to make some other units.
Cause I'm sorry, but at some point, if the Terran does know how to hit and run properly and does it well, there's nothing the Protoss can do aside from spamming Storm to prevent the Terran to get anywhere near him. And all that without adding EMP to the recipe.
I'm not sure about the duration, but I do feel like the best option to nerf Marauders is to give Slow a cooldown. I say 10 seconds because most of the spells in this game have a 10 second cooldown, but it could be less, maybe 5 or so. Just an idea.
On April 04 2010 19:34 Spaylz wrote: Marauders do need a nerf, get real. No unit should be able to handle an entire match-up on its own. Have you actually SEEN a TvP ? 99% of the time, the Terran doesn't even bother with another unit than Marauder. He does 4 Medivacs and just keeps spamming Marauders, while the Protoss has to diversify his army to defeat - ONCE AGAIN - a ONE UNIT composed army. You can't tell me you see nothing wrong with this.
Just add a 10 second cooldown to the slow. Blink isn't an initial skill, neither is Charge or Storm. Pretty much every spell any Protoss unit may have (aside from Sentries - THANK GOD) has to be researched. What do Terrans have to research exactly ? Slow is given, so is Snipe, EMP, Medivacs' heal ability, the only thing I can think of that needs researching is Cloak. But, add a research to the slow ability would be too big of a nerf and would indeed defeat the whole purpose of rushing Marauders. But it would greatly reduce the sick hit and run efficiency and would force the Terran to make some other units.
Cause I'm sorry, but at some point, if the Terran does know how to hit and run properly and does it well, there's nothing the Protoss can do aside from spamming Storm to prevent the Terran to get anywhere near him. And all that without adding EMP to the recipe.
I'm not sure about the duration, but I do feel like the best option to nerf Marauders is to give Slow a cooldown. I say 10 seconds because most of the spells in this game have a 10 second cooldown, but it could be less, maybe 5 or so. Just an idea.
I like the idea of a ~5 sec CD on the slow, and with that, terran mech really needs a buff. Because even with this 5 sec CD on the slow I think terran would still go MnMnM 90% of the time, just because mech is Slightly underpowered.
Yeah, I do agree on the mech issue. But I don't really think tanks should be buffed, I would see more point in another mech unit being added to the game. I'm not really sure a tank-buff would be enough to stop Terran from mindlessly spamming Marauders.
I really think marauders should be changed. They're amazing in nearly all aspects. The slowing ability seems gratuitous when stacked up with everything else I think it's unnecessary. It sounds like something you would give to a unit with a specialty role But the Marauder is good for almost everything (except for anti-air)
It makes games uninteresting since there's not really a specific counter or even soft counter to it, the solution is just to get a shit load of units which leads to the whole massing upon massing thing.
On April 04 2010 19:34 Spaylz wrote: Marauders do need a nerf, get real. No unit should be able to handle an entire match-up on its own.
this is where the one sided view of the people shows up clearly.
marauders - roaches - immortals all are in the same boat. the are insanely strong and counter way way way too many units. but the only option is nerfing all of them and not one of them at a time.
you just cant talk about marauder balance without talking about the others too.
also people dont thing about the consequences and how much the game would shift. nerf marauders and we will see 100%mass raoch instead of hydra/roach, we will see mass zealot rushes and whole terran ground crumbles all around.
i agree that the almighty 3 semihero units are just too good overall. but u cant change that without totally overhauling balance AND adding more units (esp for Z)
If you nerf Marauders, for the love of pete, buff mech. If tanks and hellions were more practical to get a lot of, than a nerf to Marauder would at least open the door for more diversity.
Lower gas cost, build time and knock the supply down to 2 (Why is it 3, whyyy is it threeeeeeee) on Tanks and improve Hellion attack animation delay (maybe lower cost since reactors take 50seconds now). In turn, make Marauders slow researchable and remove stim from them. Their role, as I see it, should be more a support unit within the army rather than being 90% of the army. You could even increase their gas cost to 50 so they are less spammable (25 gas makes the world of difference). That might be too much, but they do need some sort of a nerf and a more defined role.
On April 04 2010 19:34 Spaylz wrote: Marauders do need a nerf, get real. No unit should be able to handle an entire match-up on its own.
this is where the one sided view of the people shows up clearly.
marauders - roaches - immortals all are in the same boat. the are insanely strong and counter way way way too many units. but the only option is nerfing all of them and not one of them at a time.
I agree. I find the Immortal is overall too good. Not only is it a tank, but it deals massive damage, and has a special effect that prevents it from taking damage from heavy hits. I think a damage nerf would be suitable, as long as the costs or other stats of the units were modified.
Basically, roach. immortal, and marauders are all kind of ground only attacking units that are a little too good in all areas. Their only weaknesses are air units, except for, I guess Immortals, who are rather weak to lots and lots of zerglings I find.
I guess I'm just repeating what many people have said before me. Terran players don't WANT to spam marauders, any more than other people want to fight against the 1 unit army. We spam it because EVERYTHING ELSE SUCKS. Tanks are crap, hellions are even CRAPPIER, and thors are walking battlecruisers, dont even have goliath anymore. So what can Terran build? Literally in my games factories get lifted almost every time because they do better as vision than they do as production buildings.
I think the reason you see terrans building marauders is because of that terrible change to reactors.
50 seconds to make a reactor doesn't really make that viable until early-midgame, at the earliest IMHO, and when you already have 2 tech labs up. And to keep up with eco and macro, the most efficient choice is pumping marauders typically until that third raxx is up (if you have chosen to even go 3 raxx bio, which most high end players do about half the time.)
I feel like the balance doesn't need to be in the unit, but the Terran's options in receiving a smooth path to their midway goals.
If the tech lab and reactor were both, say 35 seconds to upgrade, I think that would be a wonderful change.
It would:
1) Bring back and encourage unit diversity 2) Nerf the tech lab slightly so reaper won't hit mathematically before a stalker can come out in certain cases 3) Allow players that are terran to feel like they have a choice.
That patch to terran almost felt like it was a strange WoW balance patch, where Blizzard starts to make these changes that turn out almost to be instructions on how to play your race, without the fine print.
Buffing Mech would be something to consider for sure. But there are two factors in sc2 that make other unit compositions much riskier: Queens and Warp gates.
Even if marauders were nerfed and mech buffed, we would still be seeing MMM in the majority of cases because it's the most mobile and flexible unit comp that T has. Warp Gates and Queen Larvae allow for overly rapid unit counters which punish T's who try something more strategically varied. Coupled with the fact that Terran has the worst scouting of all the races, it's all the more enticing for T's to stick with their cozy MMM composition.
I think this topic should be in an article on the front page. It seems like Blizzard listened to the last one about static defense needing a buff (Unless that was just coincidence).
"However, (in tvp) after an immortal is out marauders are essentially countered." I dare you to show me a game (with good level) where a Protoss actually counters Marauders with Immortals. Immortals are WAY too slow and WAY too expensive too be that good of a counter. You will NEVER be able to mass them up enough to catch up with the Terran and make it so his Marauders can't do anything to you. You will be able to show me a game where a Protoss does a few Immortals, but never more than a few, because it won't be the actual counter the Protoss is using. He will be spamming Storms instead, or using Charged Zealots and Stalkers with Blink.
Don't get me wrong, Immortals really are a very good unit, they hurt like hell, but their major downside is that they're damn slow and they're expensive.
Also, I'm talking about the Marauder nerf that I feel is necessary because that's what the topic is about. Marauder is not the only unit that needs fixing and I never said it was. If you want my opinion on everything else, I think Roaches need another nerf, Lings need to be slowed down and I think EMP needs to remove less shield. Immortals could deal 10 damage less also, wouldn't hurt too much. I also think Phoenixes need a buff (they're damn useless right now), and so do Terran Mechs.
On April 04 2010 19:00 Plexa wrote: It's about time we had one of these since they are, without doubt, the least fun unit in the game (along with Roaches, but we'll talk about those another day). This unit is single handedly ruining TvP and 2v2, and probably some other matchups as well. We've had a few discussions already - the marauder cheese, lucifron's boring wins over hasuobs, more marauder issues etc. But now let's tackle to problem in it's entirety, the bottom line is the Marauder is just no fun at all.
Let's look at the stats and how they compare to the Stalker (since PvT is the biggest issue, we'll compare it to the "equivalent" unit for Protoss): + Show Spoiler +
The jist of this spoiler is the Marauder has the Stalker beat on every single level - except speed (but thats not really important once you factor in stim anyway). Okay, but the Marauder is meant to be counter Stalkers - okay thats fine and dandy but Marauders can easily out micro Zealots which are suppose to counter Marauders!
Furthermore, once the Terran gets to Medivac tech Marauders become even harder to stop since they just heal right back up without a care in the world. That is, unless you have feedback (and then we descend into the debate about ghosts vs templar...). Rather than continue to expound on the issue, let's discuss possible solutions to the problem. Here are some which have come up in the previously linked threads:
- Make slow a research - Make slow not effect Zealots/Zerglings - Increase Cost/Change build time - Remove Stim
Alternatively, in order to make Stalkers more viable against them I would suggest that either Blink becomes an initial ability of the Stalker or is moved to the Cybernetics Core, or that the Range of Marauders is decreased/Range of stalkers increased so that the Stalkers can use their speed and mobility to pick off Marauders before Stim kicks in (when Protoss should really have better options to deal with them like immortals). I personally feel that modifying the stalker in this way, i.e. making it more of a harass unit which frequently makes use of hit and run like Hasuobs demonstrated was possible vs Zerg, is the most interesting solution to the problem since equally well microed protoss should be able to hold it off.
Another possible idea was to reduce the role of the Marauder to a support unit ala the Dryad in War3. Me and mani discussed this idea last night as we got Proxygate/Marauder cheesed a few games in a row. Simply put, if the Marauder was designed to supplement an army rather than be the core of it (like sentries are for Protoss at the moment) then we feel that Terran would become a more interesting race in general and able to exploit all the cool shit like nukes, mech, ravens and whatnot.
Anyway, discuss away. How do we solve the marauder issue?
All people wanna their main race buffed or nerf some units which from another races, that's the real issue
What happens if we nerf Marauder and buff Stalker ? SC2 isn't all bout TvP but TvT TvZ PvZ ... Beside, atm Marauder is the only open in TvP imo. Nerf it and Protoss rapes Terran all the way lol lol lol
Just don't slow light units? Its the first thing that comes to my mind. Because even with charge zealots are semi-optimal against marauders. simple hit and run and they only get 1hit every (insert cooldown time for charge).
On April 04 2010 19:52 Joey.rumz wrote: I think the reason you see terrans building marauders is because of that terrible change to reactors.
50 seconds to make a reactor doesn't really make that viable until early-midgame, at the earliest IMHO, and when you already have 2 tech labs up. And to keep up with eco and macro, the most efficient choice is pumping marauders typically until that third raxx is up (if you have chosen to even go 3 raxx bio, which most high end players do about half the time.)
I feel like the balance doesn't need to be in the unit, but the Terran's options in receiving a smooth path to their midway goals.
If the tech lab and reactor were both, say 35 seconds to upgrade, I think that would be a wonderful change.
It would:
1) Bring back and encourage unit diversity 2) Nerf the tech lab slightly so reaper won't hit mathematically before a stalker can come out in certain cases 3) Allow players that are terran to feel like they have a choice.
That patch to terran almost felt like it was a strange WoW balance patch, where Blizzard starts to make these changes that turn out almost to be instructions on how to play your race, without the fine print.
Good post, changing both reactor and tech lab time to 35 would make it so terran players actually have to decide between two viable builds, instead of one that's better 98% of the time early game. I don't know why they cant settle on a middle of the road build time instead of bouncing from one extreme to the other.
Also such a small change would be sure not to affect overall game balance, while at the same time promoting diversity in build order and army composition. Remember we don't want to fix one problem only to cause another. Small steps are always the best. IF we still find only marauders being spammed, at that point, take things a step further.
I think blizz is in a bad nerfing circle.. They nerfed marines and scv-s because of the push. They nerfed storm as it was strong against terran bio, and collo was 1 shotting marines and got nerfed.. So what happens if they nerf marauders and buff mech.. Templars and collo becomes useless and terran air is already stronger than P air.. And P tier 1 units are weak.
If marine scv push is not possible I bet they wont be reverting scv nerf.. Or if storm sucks against terran mech they wont revert it as it would make them look bad by nerfing and buffing something in a short amount of time.. Kinda like the mothership.. They overreacted and nerfed everything about it to uselessness..
On April 04 2010 19:06 sleeepy wrote: Before you consider nerfing marauders, realize that without maruaders terrans have nothing.
I'd rather say that with the current Marauders, the Terran has nothing, since there is no need to make any other unit against anything (except Mutas). The Marauder has to be changed otherwise Terrans will continue to use it until the end of time.
I mean 5 Marauders can beat 5 Ultras (which costs 5 times as much), it's just sad.
On April 04 2010 20:00 green.at wrote: Just don't slow light units? Its the first thing that comes to my mind. Because even with charge zealots are semi-optimal against marauders. simple hit and run and they only get 1hit every (insert cooldown time for charge).
I just don't think this makes sense realistically. The results would be only having a slow effect on armored units. So you're telling me the force of an infantry weapon should be enough to slow down the moving speed of an armored unit but not a light one. I'm not saying the starcraft world needs to be 100% realistic but I just can't picture that looking right on a battlefield.
On April 04 2010 19:26 lepape wrote: I'm not saying the situation doesnt need a slight nerf or buff either side, but I have to play the devil's advocate here, let's take a look back at SC1 for a minute.
With range and micro, Dragoons in PvT own any tier 1 terran unit, altough they do reduced damage to infantry. In fact, the only serious counter Terran has against early ranged Dragoons is to wall-in and to tech to a tier 2 unit, not even vultures, but tanks (the equivalent for Protoss would be Immortals of course).
The situation is reversed here and it's fairly similar. The only difference I see between the Dragoons in PvT in SC1 and the Marauders in TvP, it's that 1- Marauders devastate any building. 2- Protoss can't effectively wall-in and repair buildings.
All I'm trying to say is, when people say ''but omg protoss need a tier 1 hardcounter to marauders'', all I can answer is remember SC1 PvT.
This also has quite a lot do to with the high ground advantage that could use a buff imo, more than balancing the units themselves.
Basically, I agree. But there are some differences: 1st. Protoss couldn't rely on pure goons, at least it has to be 50/50 zeals and serious backup from obs/arbiter. 2nd. Goons are not that fast and mobile as maradeurs. 3rd. Marines were even with goons cost to cost but weak against zealots. 4th. You could easily retreat from goons if you had engaged them in unfavourable situation.
The most problem of maradeurs is that they ruin fun of game. They don't make imbalanced matchups.
I think the reason you see terrans building marauders is because of that terrible change to reactors.
50 seconds to make a reactor doesn't really make that viable until early-midgame, at the earliest IMHO, and when you already have 2 tech labs up. And to keep up with eco and macro, the most efficient choice is pumping marauders typically until that third raxx is up (if you have chosen to even go 3 raxx bio, which most high end players do about half the time.)
I feel like the balance doesn't need to be in the unit, but the Terran's options in receiving a smooth path to their midway goals.
If the tech lab and reactor were both, say 35 seconds to upgrade, I think that would be a wonderful change.
It would:
1) Bring back and encourage unit diversity 2) Nerf the tech lab slightly so reaper won't hit mathematically before a stalker can come out in certain cases 3) Allow players that are terran to feel like they have a choice.
That patch to terran almost felt like it was a strange WoW balance patch, where Blizzard starts to make these changes that turn out almost to be instructions on how to play your race, without the fine print.
tvp is imho rather fine. lotsa mixins and you often see so many different units in a mid long tvp (marines,marauders,medivacs,tanks,banshees,vikings,ghosts. maybe even reapers and thors).
that you dont see marines at a certain stage usually is just that they are very easy SUPERHARDcountered. immortals may counter roaches but seeing a collosus getting 30 marines kills in 5 secs is beyond evrything.
in tvz its mass marauder or gtfo anyways. cause the Z WILL just mass roaches cause they are so good and counter evrything. and the only counter are marauders. not to mention that baneling/speedling squads rape evrything Terran has on ground if you dont have marauders or/and mass hellions to block.
i mean just watch the current idra/dimaga reps. its super boring and super basic semifast expo into MASS MASS MASS roaches evrygame while taking the map. totally predictable and straightforward and still many good terrans lose cause even their "counter" gets shred by mass roaches. nerf marauders without heavily nerfing roaches and t will never ever win a tvz again. nerf roaches without adjusting P and z will never win a zvp again (lings beeing useless,hydras get raped by speedzeals+storm/collosus,mutas beeing useless vs stalker/sentry now).
so we should talk about changing the whole weird hardcounter with some superunits system instead of on race crying about the backbone units of the other races (Z say marauders/immortals/collussus op, t says immortal/roach op, p says roach/marauder op)
Nerf the God damn Marauders, I have lost more than 10 games against noob players only massing them, opposite to my always 1+ base more. Only counter protoss have to counter marauders are immortals, but they become useless when ghost start kicking EMPs all over the map..
The biggest problem I see with Marauders is the slow shot. This is probably the main thing that makes them a super all-purpose unit. Either make the ability upgradeable, or not affect light units.
On April 04 2010 20:26 go4it wrote: Nerf the God damn Marauders, I have lost more than 10 games against noob players only massing them, opposite to my always 1+ base more. Only counter protoss have to counter marauders are immortals, but they become useless when ghost start kicking EMPs all over the map..
6 rax Marauders-no-brain-win ftw.
Wait, does this post mean you are 1 base behind him?
I honestly as a terran player feel the marauders are fine as they are, if they make them any worse Marines and Marauders will just become as useless as they were in SC1 Firebat and Marine style.
Atleast with the marauders being slightly powerful it gives us Terrans the option of going bio or mech (well not mech at the moment as much, but bio stays viable in all matchups including TvT). I think one way they can do to make people moan about them less, is to make them do less damage to buildings and leave that up to the heavier units.
Researchable Slow must be the best option, Marauders is a very needed component in the Terran arsenal. If they nerf Marauders too much then units from the barracks will just be useless and people will have to use mech which really aren't that good AFAIK.
weird that, that game got uploaded of me ;S And the reason that marauders were beating ultras - my marauders were 3/3, and his ultras were like 0/2 - AND marauders are a counter unit to ultras ^^.
Btw i don't like the OP post, marauders 33 secs, immortals 40, stalkers 42 (alot less with warpgates), and stalkers also have technically 160 hp, with 80 of it regenable outside of combat - i did not know immortals built that quickly, that's abit insane,.
As for general imbalance whine about marauders vs P, i have played vs multiple good protoss players who have demolished the marauder fe strat, i've had more supply of marauders and zealots/sentries/stalkers walked over me (this 3-4 warpgate push strat). The reason marauders are so commonly used right now vs P, is because NOTHING else is viable - if you consider marines, the amount of flat out counters they have now is ridiculous - Zealots/guardian shield/stalkers/collosus/HT's - the list goes on. Terran can't viably go Mech either, as much as they want to - Immortals counter that whole building single handedly, and with immortals popping out through chrono boost - terran would need alot more factories to even think about outmassing.
If you really wanna "nerf" marauders, you have to boost something else, or majorly nerf immortals (the 10 damage shield thing, and the +50 damage vs armoured) and making it possible for terran to survive the 3-4 warpgate push, otherwise you'd be simply annihilating terran v p
Another thing that I havent seen mentioned that I really think is a big part of the issue is their incredible fast attack, you can move-attack-move-attack pretty much without sotpping for a second Its almost instant, on the other hand the hellion that is supposed to be the mobile fast unit has to stop for a full second for his attack to even come out.
On April 04 2010 20:26 go4it wrote: Nerf the God damn Marauders, I have lost more than 10 games against noob players only massing them, opposite to my always 1+ base more. Only counter protoss have to counter marauders are immortals, but they become useless when ghost start kicking EMPs all over the map..
6 rax Marauders-no-brain-win ftw.
Wait, does this post mean you are 1 base behind him?
On April 04 2010 20:37 DeMusliM wrote: weird that, that game got uploaded of me ;S And the reason that marauders were beating ultras - my marauders were 3/3, and his ultras were like 0/2 - AND marauders are a counter unit to ultras ^^.
Btw i don't like the OP post, marauders 33 secs, immortals 40, stalkers 42 (alot less with warpgates), and stalkers also have technically 160 hp, with 80 of it regenable outside of combat - i did not know immortals built that quickly, that's abit insane,.
As for general imbalance whine about marauders vs P, i have played vs multiple good protoss players who have demolished the marauder fe strat, i've had more supply of marauders and zealots/sentries/stalkers walked over me (this 3-4 warpgate push strat). The reason marauders are so commonly used right now vs P, is because NOTHING else is viable - if you consider marines, the amount of flat out counters they have now is ridiculous - Zealots/guardian shield/stalkers/collosus/HT's - the list goes on. Terran can't viably go Mech either, as much as they want to - Immortals counter that whole building single handedly, and with immortals popping out through chrono boost - terran would need alot more factories to even think about outmassing.
If you really wanna "nerf" marauders, you have to boost something else, or majorly nerf immortals (the 10 damage shield thing, and the +50 damage vs armoured) and making it possible for terran to survive the 3-4 warpgate push, otherwise you'd be simply annihilating terran v p
Why dont Terran players use more Tanks/Thors instead of mass Marauders?
I dont have to scout Terran player these days, I always know what will come out of their base.
Dont get me wrong I love Marauders as units, but I hate to see Terran players doing nothing except massing them and I really dislike playing that.
On April 04 2010 20:45 go4it wrote: Why dont Terran players use more Tanks/Thors instead of mass Marauders?
I dont have to scout Terran player these days, I always know what will come out of their base.
Dont get me wrong I love Marauders as units, but I hate to see Terran players doing nothing except massing them and I really dislike playing that.
They are just arent worth the money with how fast they fall to immortals I'd imagine.
With marauders you get alot of units for the immortals to have to kill and they have enough HP so that psi stom and colossus don immediatly destroy them.
Didn't he put it in pretty plain English in his post? Immortals counter pretty much all factory units (and gl killing immortals with hellions). As it is right now the only way I see factory unit armies ever working vs P is if T can also mix in ghosts...but I really don't think that is feasible until it is too late because immortals are out well before terran can get enough gas for both.
On April 04 2010 20:37 DeMusliM wrote: weird that, that game got uploaded of me ;S And the reason that marauders were beating ultras - my marauders were 3/3, and his ultras were like 0/2 - AND marauders are a counter unit to ultras ^^.
Btw i don't like the OP post, marauders 33 secs, immortals 40, stalkers 42 (alot less with warpgates), and stalkers also have technically 160 hp, with 80 of it regenable outside of combat - i did not know immortals built that quickly, that's abit insane,.
As for general imbalance whine about marauders vs P, i have played vs multiple good protoss players who have demolished the marauder fe strat, i've had more supply of marauders and zealots/sentries/stalkers walked over me (this 3-4 warpgate push strat). The reason marauders are so commonly used right now vs P, is because NOTHING else is viable - if you consider marines, the amount of flat out counters they have now is ridiculous - Zealots/guardian shield/stalkers/collosus/HT's - the list goes on. Terran can't viably go Mech either, as much as they want to - Immortals counter that whole building single handedly, and with immortals popping out through chrono boost - terran would need alot more factories to even think about outmassing.
If you really wanna "nerf" marauders, you have to boost something else, or majorly nerf immortals (the 10 damage shield thing, and the +50 damage vs armoured) and making it possible for terran to survive the 3-4 warpgate push, otherwise you'd be simply annihilating terran v p
Why dont Terran players use more Tanks/Thors instead of mass Marauders?
I dont have to scout Terran player these days, I always know what will come out of their base.
Dont get me wrong I love Marauders as units, but I hate to see Terran players doing nothing except massing them and I really dislike playing that.
I don't want to point out the obvious but Because immortals counters tanks/thors completely... Roaches counter thors and tanks in massive numbers... Solution to both are mass marauders thus more marauders
Here is a formula i made up. I call it ooni algorithm while (playing zerg v zerg) { build moar roaches(); }
while (playing terran) { If (enemy player == protoss) { build moar marauders(); } else if (enemy player == zerg) { build moar marauders(); } else if (enemy player == terran) { build moar marauders(); } }
while (playing protoss) { build zealots; build stalkers; build sentries; if (marauders attack) { type("gg"); } build immortals; build collusus; if (mutalisks attack) { type("gg"); } build mass carriers; win(); }
Really interresting discussion. However i would appriciate if people were actually discussing the topic.
On April 04 2010 19:12 bLah. wrote: or just try playing terran, get into plat div and play vs tosses and you'll see that we don't really have easymode there.
Grats, you are in platinium league. Who isn't? Someone please ban this idiot. He is not interrested in a discussion, he just want to use his rating as an argument. Thats some kind of professional retardation or something.
Just get rid of the slow all together no upgrade its a stupid idea anyway. A Slow Support unit should get a slow not a fast infantry. Maybe siege tank in siege mode have a slow? That would suppport mech.. Make marauders build time to 35, make reactor and tech lab share 35 second build times.
On April 04 2010 19:12 bLah. wrote: or just try playing terran, get into plat div and play vs tosses and you'll see that we don't really have easymode there.
Grats, you are in platinium league. Who isn't? Someone please ban this idiot. He is not interrested in a discussion, he just want to use his rating as an argument. Thats some kind of professional retardation or something.
lol way to overreact
imo this is similar to the immortals not too long ago. basically terrans were having a huge problem with immortal rushes. protoss would just rush for immortals and kill the terran. it was out of this that the marauder and marine combo began to shine.
now protoss is having problems with marauders. instead of trying to play the game and come up with a creative solution they scream imbalance. you silly protosses have gotten so used to simply A-moving your armys you have forgotten how to be creative!
immortals are still extremely powerful. they do 50 damage FIFTY DAMAGE vs armored units. why arent you using them? because ghosts are EMPing your shields.
high templars have an ability to kill a ghost instantly most of the time, its called feedback. SO why not get stalkers for your armys bulk, backedup by imortals which are backed up by HTs. why not throw in some DTs too. and while your at it you can get blink! and blink onto highground! while storming and using feedback.
i know targeting those ghosts is hard but your costing the terran 150/150. it isnt going to be easy.
getting rid of slow altogether would probably mean rebalancing TvZ and PvT entirely. It will probably never happen. Anyway, the slow effect makes things interesting, and I don't mind it.. I just don't like the mass marauder approach to T.. it seems kinda boring. Moving the slow to tech lab would encourage different openings.
As a protoss player I have to say I often argued to completely remove the slow effect since it gives Terran a HUGE advantage in the early TvP. However, to be serious, I LOVE the idea to make "slowdown" researchable - it woudln't affect the main advantage (for instance vs banelings) but would solve that marauder-only-cheese rush issue.
On April 04 2010 21:14 IdrA wrote: the fix to marines and reactors was necessary, they should nerf marauders and buff mech.
I know you know what you're talking about Idra, but the only problem I see, is if they buff mech and nerf marine/marauder too much It'll make marine marauder useless in any matchup bar TvZ again (which personally I don't want to happen), is that something you'd like to see, or are you enjoying the mobility of Terran this time around?
blizzard usually doesn't go for complicated solutions with contrived rules imposed onto the gameplay. meaning the zealot / zergling immunity is sort of absurd.
I personally think they need to Nerf immortals if they nerf marauders, would open up alot of options including mech play. I also believe that warpgates are still too dominant, one of the reasons the fe 3 rax opening is so popular is to defend against this push, as teching routes, or simply 3 rax pushes often get repelled and then outteched by the P and countered easily. - I would personally like some drawback on the warpgate function as right now - the only drawback is you can't queue units, which is no big deal - but for 50/50 you can send units from countless gateways to alotta places - i think a nice, but not too unrealistic option would be making units warpgated cost a small fee, maybe 10% extra of the unit cost, or 10/10 mins/gas, just so you don't ALWAYS resort to having warpgates, like their should be advantages/disadvantages to having them.
While I do agree that marauders are very powerful, I feel that a proper use of Sentry/Stalker/Zealot can do just fine against them. I also feel that comparing units 1:1 is silly because the game is not designed to have 3 races that mirror one another and the units just have different skins. Everything has it's strengths and weaknesses.
Marauders get 3shotted by immortals, making them an excellent counter. And don't say "Oh the terran are rushing me every game" because you can build a canon and defend with what little of an army you have. Perhaps an early Zealot push before he gets his techlab up. There are endless discussions to be had but you must consider the grand scheme of things.
As many people have pointed out, without marauders, terran would be missing a huge functionality in its army. It's possible that the damage or hp may need a tweaking, but the unit by itself, in my opinion is fine.
In regards to the clip with the ultralisks, what you are not considering is the medivacs. You can't say that 5 marauder > 5 ultra and ultra's cost x amount more because you're not factoring in the price of the 3/3 upgrades, stims, or medivacs. Not only this, he lost the game O_o which seems counter-intuitive to the point we're trying to discuss here because even with the "super awesome" marauders he was still not able to compete.
Marauders are awful, the unit ruins terran as much as it ruins terran match ups. You can't build anything but marauders and expect to win consistently. It's sad to say but I'm really burned out on SC2 already
On April 04 2010 21:14 IdrA wrote: the fix to marines and reactors was necessary, they should nerf marauders and buff mech.
I know you know what you're talking about Idra, but the only problem I see, is if they buff mech and nerf marine/marauder too much It'll make marine marauder useless in any matchup bar TvZ again (which personally I don't want to happen), is that something you'd like to see, or are you enjoying the mobility of Terran this time around?
obviously if they nerf it too much it will be useless, thats true of anything. the whole point of testing and patching is to fine tune things, right now mm is obviously a far better choice than mech. if you're aiming for diversity, and they are, that means you nerf mm and buff mech till theyre equally strong choices.
Take away the marauders gun and replace it with a can of silly string, take away their armor and have them run around naked, let them keep stim, dress them up in pink bunny ears
Another possible idea was to reduce the role of the Marauder to a support unit ala the Dryad in War3. Me and mani discussed this idea last night as we got Proxygate/Marauder cheesed a few games in a row. Simply put, if the Marauder was designed to supplement an army rather than be the core of it (like sentries are for Protoss at the moment) then we feel that Terran would become a more interesting race in general and able to exploit all the cool shit like nukes, mech, ravens and whatnot.
.... No, then terran would die horribly.
If you are going to do ANYTHING to marauders, something else about terran would have to change (i.e reactors would have to not take five years to build, or you'd have to give us back spider mines or something).
On April 04 2010 20:54 mgj wrote: Really interresting discussion. However i would appriciate if people were actually discussing the topic.
On April 04 2010 19:12 bLah. wrote: or just try playing terran, get into plat div and play vs tosses and you'll see that we don't really have easymode there.
Grats, you are in platinium league. Who isn't? Someone please ban this idiot. He is not interrested in a discussion, he just want to use his rating as an argument. Thats some kind of professional retardation or something.
lol way to overreact
imo this is similar to the immortals not too long ago. basically terrans were having a huge problem with immortal rushes. protoss would just rush for immortals and kill the terran. it was out of this that the marauder and marine combo began to shine.
now protoss is having problems with marauders. instead of trying to play the game and come up with a creative solution they scream imbalance. you silly protosses have gotten so used to simply A-moving your armys you have forgotten how to be creative!
immortals are still extremely powerful. they do 50 damage FIFTY DAMAGE vs armored units. why arent you using them? because ghosts are EMPing your shields.
high templars have an ability to kill a ghost instantly most of the time, its called feedback. SO why not get stalkers for your armys bulk, backedup by imortals which are backed up by HTs. why not throw in some DTs too. and while your at it you can get blink! and blink onto highground! while storming and using feedback.
i know targeting those ghosts is hard but your costing the terran 150/150. it isnt going to be easy.
You sir are a moron. I haven't seen a single Protoss going for a one-unit army like Terrans do. Why ? Because they can't afford to. Protoss always diversify their army, always back up their Stalkers and Zealots with Sentries, Immortals and HT because they HAVE TO. Sorry if we're not able to win a game only massing Stalkers. And, although High Templars do have Feedback and it is really effective against Ghosts, it has the same range as EMP except EMP is an AoE while Feedback has to be clicked on a single unit, therefore the Protoss either has to chose his fights wisely where he can "outview" the Terran or he has to be twice as reactive.
So yes, Immortals are powerful, so is Storm. But a bunch of Stimpacked Marauders can easily dodge Storm and take like what... Maybe 20 to 30 damage tops which they instantly recover thanks to the Medivacs. I am really not routing against any nerf on Immortals, it might even be necessary like most Terrans claim, but don't act like Marauders can be countered by "backing up your army with HTs and DTs". This is the definition of imbalance, it isn't normal that in order to counter ONE single unit, one has to mass up 3 different ones. At some point, and like any other match-up, TvP becomes about skill, and when the T goes for a mass M&M, sadly, I feel like the Protoss has to play a lot better to win, and it shouldn't be that way.
I still think shaving 25 HP is a better option than making slow down an ability that you research. Then just give tanks a good 180 HP and you're good to go. Seems like if you added slow down to tech lab you'd be a little cramped in researching both stim and slow down. Not to mention Immortal comes with a passive ability as well (Immortals are fine btw, their cost, supply, build time, and tech level justify their power). Those points aside, I would take slow down at tech lab as a 2nd choice for nerf because i don't think it would upset overall game balance too much
On April 04 2010 21:40 Kantutan wrote: Not the biggest change, but perhaps the slow effect should disappear while stimmed? Would stop a bit of the kiting abuse.
This is actually quite smart, it's the Stimpack + Slow combination that makes the Marauders viable lategame. Making it so a Terran would have to chose between one or the other could change a lot without messing with the game's balance too much.
On April 04 2010 20:37 DeMusliM wrote: weird that, that game got uploaded of me ;S And the reason that marauders were beating ultras - my marauders were 3/3, and his ultras were like 0/2 - AND marauders are a counter unit to ultras ^^.
Btw i don't like the OP post, marauders 33 secs, immortals 40, stalkers 42 (alot less with warpgates), and stalkers also have technically 160 hp, with 80 of it regenable outside of combat - i did not know immortals built that quickly, that's abit insane,.
As for general imbalance whine about marauders vs P, i have played vs multiple good protoss players who have demolished the marauder fe strat, i've had more supply of marauders and zealots/sentries/stalkers walked over me (this 3-4 warpgate push strat). The reason marauders are so commonly used right now vs P, is because NOTHING else is viable - if you consider marines, the amount of flat out counters they have now is ridiculous - Zealots/guardian shield/stalkers/collosus/HT's - the list goes on. Terran can't viably go Mech either, as much as they want to - Immortals counter that whole building single handedly, and with immortals popping out through chrono boost - terran would need alot more factories to even think about outmassing.
If you really wanna "nerf" marauders, you have to boost something else, or majorly nerf immortals (the 10 damage shield thing, and the +50 damage vs armoured) and making it possible for terran to survive the 3-4 warpgate push, otherwise you'd be simply annihilating terran v p
Basically this is 100% true.
On some maps you can open mech (like, LT and maybe Kulas Ravine), but doing that on Blistering Sands would just be suicide. Probably suicide on Steppes of war and maybe even on metalopolis. Basically I don't know if it's possible to go mech on any map where you don't have a cliff overlooking the entrance to your natural/choke.
On April 04 2010 21:41 kidcrash wrote: I still think shaving 25 HP is a better option than making slow down an ability that you research. Then just give tanks a good 180 HP and you're good to go. Seems like if you added slow down to tech lab you'd be a little cramped in researching both stim and slow down. Not to mention Immortal comes with a passive ability as well (Immortals are fine btw, their cost, supply, build time, and tech level justify their power). Those points aside, I would take slow down at tech lab as a 2nd choice for nerf because i don't think it would upset overall game balance too much
If you make slow a research, it'd have to be either really cheap on gas, or stim would have to become cheaper.
Almost tired of trying to be constructive with so much whine about marauders - As already stated, marauder are the only unit that even stand a chance early game vs the protoss gateway units, that's a fact. Even then when i say stand a chance - i don't mean counter, i literally mean what i say - stand a chance, even with an expo, and 3 or so bunkers. I've played several good protoss players, one that sticks in my mind called Bischu on the Euro server - he told me he NEVER loses to terran on any map, i won't reveal his strategy - but the fact he came up with something quite simplistic and yet it works with a very high success rate, even when i know exactly what he's gonna do i think that is in itself enough argument to show this mu isn't "ruined by marauder imbalance".
The fact that marauders seem strong - is just because the other terran units are very weak in comparrison.
^that doesn't really show me much if I have no idea what the strategy is >< if you have two tech lab barracks there shouldn't be a cramping problem. it would be a mineral / gas penalty, mostly.
The problem I have with marauder is that they do the exact same thing as tanks in PvT, but are less expensive. Siege tanks are nearly useless against protoss now that they have all those significant counters (immortals, charge zealots, blink, pheonix's lift to a certain extent). Tanks also cost 125 gas, against 25 for the marauder.
The marauder is a 'boring' unit because it's used too much, but I ask, if you nerf marauder, what will allow terran to hold their place against protoss?
On April 04 2010 21:45 DeMusliM wrote: Almost tired of trying to be constructive with so much whine about marauders - As already stated, marauder are the only unit that even stand a chance early game vs the protoss gateway units, that's a fact. Even then when i say stand a chance - i don't mean counter, i literally mean what i say - stand a chance, even with an expo, and 3 or so bunkers. I've played several good protoss players, one that sticks in my mind called Bischu on the Euro server - he told me he NEVER loses to terran on any map, i won't reveal his strategy - but the fact he came up with something quite simplistic and yet it works with a very high success rate, even when i know exactly what he's gonna do i think that is in itself enough argument to show this mu isn't "ruined by marauder imbalance".
The fact that marauders seem strong - is just because the other terran units are very weak in comparrison.
I myself never argued against that. The MMM strategy is definitely the best one a Terran can choose to go for. The problem therefore doesn't exactly lie there, but in the other units. As I often say, Blizzard wanted to make a game that wouldn't be about seeing the same strategies over and over again, and they obviously failed with Terran in this Beta. But it doesn't mean Marauders don't need a nerf. I still think they do, but that nerf should come with a buff and make it so so the Terran race can diversify itself and not so that unit becomes worthless. It's quite the same for Zerg sadly, we only see either mass Lings/Roaches or mass Roaches/Hydras. Something has to be done.
On April 04 2010 20:54 mgj wrote: Really interresting discussion. However i would appriciate if people were actually discussing the topic.
On April 04 2010 19:12 bLah. wrote: or just try playing terran, get into plat div and play vs tosses and you'll see that we don't really have easymode there.
Grats, you are in platinium league. Who isn't? Someone please ban this idiot. He is not interrested in a discussion, he just want to use his rating as an argument. Thats some kind of professional retardation or something.
immortals are still extremely powerful. they do 50 damage FIFTY DAMAGE vs armored units. why arent you using them? because ghosts are EMPing your shields.
3 marauders are similary priced as 1 immortal so you could say the same about combined 30+30 damage and they are stimmabe, healable with slowdown effect..
it's really hard to play a good terran because if you attack him at the wrong time your army is dead meat cuz of the slow, so there's really no chance to retreat, and if you manage to retreat you will probably take a lot of losses and he can just stomp you over after that. the terran army on the other hand,can simply stim and run away if it's too much. but then a terran will say "hey noob toss u have sentries and force fields that are so freakin imba". WRONG. u need so much gas for immortals/colo/stalker/zealot speed and colo range upgrades, that u can't have so many sentries to effectively block them,and even if you have many sentries,chances are you wasted too much gas and are lacking in immortal/colo,and then you're dead anyway. and don't forget the EMP.
I'm playing in the higher ranks of platinum and it's really stupid to play pvt, almost every game is the ridiculous 2 rax marauder into fast exp, and what's worse, he can actually still pressure you with marauders while expanding, he gets his exp so much faster than you and then his econ is way ahead and he just runs you over with mass marauder and medivac. it's really sad to play like that for the toss. and as someone said, the protoss really needs to be a better player in order to win.
yeah I haven't tried mass phoenix / zealot, but I'm curious how it would fare vs. marauder. you'd have to find a way to get there though.
On April 04 2010 21:45 Tdelamay wrote: The marauder is a 'boring' unit because it's used too much, but I ask, if you nerf marauder, what will allow terran to hold their place against protoss?
I really don't care at all about these talks about Terrans have nothing without marauders. The bottom line is they are a 1 unit miracle army that is 100% safe to spam 100% of the time. You say P beats this with a good combination of units. Yep, exactly that, a combination of units. Buff Terran, buff mech, it doesn't matter, just don't leave it so they only need this 1 unit. You can't go near a Terran base without losing whatever the scouting unit is- you can't get away from the Marauders.
But all of this is an underlying problem with the deadly trio of SC2 units - The Roach, Marauder, and Immortal. They're all terribly designed and extremely unfun and boring, it just so happens our attentions have focused more-so to the marauder at this time.
That being said, I still love SC2, play every day and have a blast, and I sincerely hope this situation changes.
I as random player like the marauder. My only concern is that terran can expand easily with 2 marauders since Protoss cannot counter them early on, because of the slow. My solution would be to make slow researchable from the tech lab for a maximum of 100/100 80sec. I guess 50/50 with 60sec could already work too.
has anyone just tried getting a ton of zealots/ sentries and literally surrounding the marauders with tons of force fields while you charge them with zealots?
On April 04 2010 22:06 cartoon]x wrote: has anyone just tried getting a ton of zealots/ sentries and literally surrounding the marauders with tons of force fields while you charge them with zealots?
Charge has a 10 second cooldown. With equal micro, the Terran player would still come out on top because Sentries are slow units and you need to be able to catch up with the -Stimmed- Marauders to Force Field behind them, which is quite frankly not possible. Otherwise, Charged Zealots are indeed very deadly against Zealots, but it's not enough.
Fun fact: Marines deal about the same dps to unarmored units as Marauders do to armored units.
Marauder redesign suggestion: - Lower damage to 6 +12 armored. 1 +2 armored per upgrade. - Lower hitpoints to 100. - Change cost to 75/50. - Increase build time from 30 to 40.
Makes them harder to mass early, but retains effectiveness through upgrades. I think the slowing effect is vital to the Marauder, so cut health and damage instead. Marines will be essential in backing Marauders, and Marauders will be even more effective in dealing with armored units. Reducing mineral cost and increasing gas cost both encourages making Marines and makes them harder to mass quickly. Basically, they are forced into more of a support role.
Of course, if the Marauder is to be messed with, then the Roach needs to be messed with too.
Roach redesign suggestions: - Lower attack to 14. +1 per upgrade. - Increase supply cost to 2.
Harder to mass, not as strong. Still good tanks. Combine with other units for best results.
I think the main problem with mech is that it isn't strong enough compared to the resources that need to be invested into it.
Tank redesign suggestions: - Lower cost to 150/100 and 2 supply. - Start with 2 armor.
On April 04 2010 22:06 cartoon]x wrote: has anyone just tried getting a ton of zealots/ sentries and literally surrounding the marauders with tons of force fields while you charge them with zealots?
Charge has a 10 second cooldown. With equal micro, the Terran player would still come out on top because Sentries are slow units and you need to be able to catch up with the -Stimmed- Marauders to Force Field behind them, which is quite frankly not possible. Otherwise, Charged Zealots are indeed very deadly against Zealots, but it's not enough.
Hmm. I think you can take charge off autocast, and wait to charge until you get some forcefields down. Right?
On April 04 2010 22:06 cartoon]x wrote: has anyone just tried getting a ton of zealots/ sentries and literally surrounding the marauders with tons of force fields while you charge them with zealots?
Charge has a 10 second cooldown. With equal micro, the Terran player would still come out on top because Sentries are slow units and you need to be able to catch up with the -Stimmed- Marauders to Force Field behind them, which is quite frankly not possible. Otherwise, Charged Zealots are indeed very deadly against Zealots, but it's not enough.
Hmm. I think you can take charge off autocast, and wait to charge until you get some forcefields down. Right?
Whoa. You would have to manually cast Charge and click it for every single Zealot you have. And Sentries wouldn't have gotten any faster either.
On April 04 2010 22:06 cartoon]x wrote: has anyone just tried getting a ton of zealots/ sentries and literally surrounding the marauders with tons of force fields while you charge them with zealots?
Charge has a 10 second cooldown. With equal micro, the Terran player would still come out on top because Sentries are slow units and you need to be able to catch up with the -Stimmed- Marauders to Force Field behind them, which is quite frankly not possible. Otherwise, Charged Zealots are indeed very deadly against Zealots, but it's not enough.
Hmm. I think you can take charge off autocast, and wait to charge until you get some forcefields down. Right?
Whoa. You would have to manually cast Charge and click it for every single Zealot you have. And Sentries wouldn't have gotten any faster either.
oh... it's manual like that. Well, the idea is that sentries would be in front, and if he comes near you you can surround them with forcefields. But you're right this part probably would not work out so perfect. The zealots stay back until the forcefields are down. If the charge works one at a time like t hat, you could instead turn autocast back on at the moment you want to charge
On April 04 2010 22:06 cartoon]x wrote: has anyone just tried getting a ton of zealots/ sentries and literally surrounding the marauders with tons of force fields while you charge them with zealots?
Charge has a 10 second cooldown. With equal micro, the Terran player would still come out on top because Sentries are slow units and you need to be able to catch up with the -Stimmed- Marauders to Force Field behind them, which is quite frankly not possible. Otherwise, Charged Zealots are indeed very deadly against Zealots, but it's not enough.
Hmm. I think you can take charge off autocast, and wait to charge until you get some forcefields down. Right?
Whoa. You would have to manually cast Charge and click it for every single Zealot you have. And Sentries wouldn't have gotten any faster either.
oh... it's manual like that. Well, the idea is that sentries would be in front, and if he comes near you you can surround them with forcefields. The zealots stay back until the forcefields are down. If the charge works one at a time like t hat, you could instead turn autocast back on at the moment you want to charge
We might have misunderstood each other. If you meant remove autocast from Charge and use it manually, my last post answers that. Otherwise if it's autocast you don't have to worry about it. But if you remove the autocast you will have to use it yourself and one click on Charge won't trigger it for all your Zealots.
Sentries are support units, they're fairly fragile. If you put them in front of your army with nothing to defend them they will die pretty quickly, especially against Marauders.
On April 04 2010 22:06 cartoon]x wrote: has anyone just tried getting a ton of zealots/ sentries and literally surrounding the marauders with tons of force fields while you charge them with zealots?
Charge has a 10 second cooldown. With equal micro, the Terran player would still come out on top because Sentries are slow units and you need to be able to catch up with the -Stimmed- Marauders to Force Field behind them, which is quite frankly not possible. Otherwise, Charged Zealots are indeed very deadly against Zealots, but it's not enough.
If he's constantly running away, then just wait for him to run far enough back that he either can't run anymore, got too far away from his main, or had to back up his ramp. If he had to back up his ramp force field his ramp and laugh.
I love you DeMuslim... i don't know how you can argue with wrong values and no one is saying a word. Congrats for having your bunch of fan-kiddies, which follow you blindly.
First of all they have +30 vs armored, then it's protoss only unit which can deal with armored units at all since Stalkers are, well not that suited to deal with armored.
Now i try to sum up your points:
Marauders are the only way to deal with Immortals for T. (Nah, let's ignore the fact that they counter Zealots, Stalkers, Sentrys, Colloseus, HT's. Did i forget any other P ground units? ).
You say a Immortal +1 Attack 2 shots a single Marauder, which stims is simple wow. Not that stim kills 20 hp off and that's not roughly 1/6 of it's total hp, you say that upgrades shouldn't matter at all.
Indirectly you say that you can spam Immortals in the same way as marauders, which is kinda lol.
T loses to P only due their OP Immortals, if you don't go Marauders, which you "prove" with some dude which is currently smarter as other and know something that others don't know so they cannot deal with it, because it's new to them. It's like saying i know where the sniper is which is targeting you, but i won't tell it you, so you cannot take proper cover.
I hope i didn't miss any point.
You agree that Marauders seems to be strong. Now let's compare this to P.... Mothership looked strong, nerf.... HT looked strong nerf, Colosseus nerf, Zealot nerf.... so if i follow this strictly that means Marauders deserve a nerf as well.
i dont know why people talk about marauders. i play P and T (more P) in platinum on place 8 and im happy if they go MMM+G, the first days i thought its very imbalanced but at that moment where you get used to feedback ghosts there is nothing and really nothing a bio army can do against a mixed p army. only problem i often see is that early marauders can put much pressure, but many people are just chrobo boosting their nexus all the time and the first unit they build is a immortal. seriously learn to use sentrys forcefield and delay the terran first, pick marauderes one by one that way and you will get in time your immortal + support units and will counter him. @ all the whiners who say now "GHOST + EMP so imba and they destroy immortals" learn to split your armyat that moment where the terran has 1ghost you will have 2-3 immortals and he wont have a 2nd base and lategame PvT TvP is in favor of P by far. storm + colo own everything.
i dont get it why people always complain about P/T imbalance, if the only race that is imbalanced Z is. seriously they can expan where and when they want with their 300 mineral hatches and mapcontroll in the early game + they shit per hatch 7 larvas. the best is that they dont even need to be 1 base ahead like in sc1 so why are the hatches cheaper/faster than a cc/nexus?
T early game > P early Game but T late game < P late game same like other matchups in sc1.
On April 04 2010 22:06 cartoon]x wrote: has anyone just tried getting a ton of zealots/ sentries and literally surrounding the marauders with tons of force fields while you charge them with zealots?
Charge has a 10 second cooldown. With equal micro, the Terran player would still come out on top because Sentries are slow units and you need to be able to catch up with the -Stimmed- Marauders to Force Field behind them, which is quite frankly not possible. Otherwise, Charged Zealots are indeed very deadly against Zealots, but it's not enough.
If he's constantly running away, then just wait for him to run far enough back that he either can't run anymore, got too far away from his main, or had to back up his ramp. If he had to back up his ramp force field his ramp and laugh.
You do that with an Observer that gives you vision and you will indeed have some advantage. After that it goes further than a simple unit debate.
On April 04 2010 22:06 cartoon]x wrote: has anyone just tried getting a ton of zealots/ sentries and literally surrounding the marauders with tons of force fields while you charge them with zealots?
Charge has a 10 second cooldown. With equal micro, the Terran player would still come out on top because Sentries are slow units and you need to be able to catch up with the -Stimmed- Marauders to Force Field behind them, which is quite frankly not possible. Otherwise, Charged Zealots are indeed very deadly against Zealots, but it's not enough.
If he's constantly running away, then just wait for him to run far enough back that he either can't run anymore, got too far away from his main, or had to back up his ramp. If he had to back up his ramp force field his ramp and laugh.
That would be a great advice but stimmed Marauders are so fast, so unless you got a 100 psi amry that situation will never happen.
Marauders are basicly a cheaper, smarter, although lower on HP, still got the abillity to be healed, with stim and the abillity to slow units down Dragoon, and people don't see a problem with this unit?
I know I'm not a great player, maybe not even a good player, but when I feel that every PvT I win is only because I made some sort of crazy all in strat (like proxxy void rays with +1), or a game where the Terran waits to long to attack so I can get +8 warp gates, charge, storm and 1/1 upgrades, I feel there is something with the unit Marauder that is wrong.
I hate to sound like a whiney bitch but thats my experience at this stage of the beta.
On April 04 2010 22:27 MeProU_Kor wrote: i dont know why people talk about marauders. i play P and T (more P) in platinum on place 8 and im happy if they go MMM+G, the first days i thought its very imbalanced but at that moment where you get used to feedback ghosts there is nothing and really nothing a bio army can do against a mixed p army. only problem i often see is that early marauders can put much pressure, but many people are just chrobo boosting their nexus all the time and the first unit they build is a immortal. seriously learn to use sentrys forcefield and delay the terran first, pick marauderes one by one that way and you will get in time your immortal + support units and will counter him. @ all the whiners who say now "GHOST + EMP so imba and they destroy immortals" learn to split your armyat that moment where the terran has 1ghost you will have 2-3 immortals and he wont have a 2nd base and lategame PvT TvP is in favor of P by far. storm + colo own everything.
i dont get it why people always complain about P/T imbalance, if the only race that is imbalanced Z is. seriously they can expan where and when they want with their 300 mineral hatches and mapcontroll in the early game + they shit per hatch 7 larvas. the best is that they dont even need to be 1 base ahead like in sc1 so why are the hatches cheaper/faster than a cc/nexus?
T early game > P early Game but T late game < P late game same like other matchups in sc1.
That's very nice, but if the Terran has 3-4 Ghosts you're screwed. No matter how good you split your army he will EMP the crap out of you. So far the best counter I've seen is the strategy HasuObs uses. He builds Cannons and Pylons around Xel'Naga towers in order to have great mapcontrol and vision so he can use this advantage to Feedback Ghosts before they actually see what to EMP. But he still has to be very quick and that can't be applied to every game and to every position you can spawn in.
I am completely flabbergasted by the things some people spout in this thread, I mean we're in beta, we should try to move the game into a direction which is the most enjoyable for all sides, it's not about trying to preserve your own retarded advantage in some area, nor should you be trying to sway people's opinions so that one side gets either unjust buffs or nerfs (which actually happened to toss already).
There are so many people in this thread arguing AGAINST changing the dynamic of the terran army away from the 1-unit-to-rule-them-all that terran is right now. They would literally rather have 1 overpowered unit that requires little skill to use to completely overpower most everything else than a balanced army composition, and what is their argument? It's because apparently protoss had it so easy in BW and only needed to build one unit. This is so bewildering to me I'm beginning to think I'm not on TL at all but on the battle.net forums, not only is that statement grossly untrue, but it also has nothing to do with the subject at hand which is fucking Starcraft 2!
All the while you are complaining about how useless the other terran stuff is and just violently lashing out at the people who seek to improve the game through discussion to "work around" your imbalanced and monotonously broken race because you'd rather stay in your rut of pure marauders than have your race rebalanced in some way.
For the record I think there are severe problems with the way the zerg army works as well, and while protoss is clearly the most "whole" at the moment (I doubt anyone is going to argue against the fact that the typical P army composition is the most interesting and varied at the moment), it still has some ways to go before I'd call it ready for launch. What I'm arguing here is that people are so unwilling to tackle the issues that plague the game because they've quickly learned to abuse them and don't want to let go of their little advantages and this needs to change, at least on these forums if nowhere else.
On a side note I really think this forum needs to be drastically more strict in it's banning policy regarding pure, unadultared idiocy so that the SC2 forum doesn't get even more out of hand that it is already.
Be it ever so humble there is no opinion like mine!
I feel like it is important to consider the balance between roaches, marauders, and immortals. I feel like if marauders receive a significant nerf then roaches and immortals will require a nerf as well. Terran will have a much harder time dealing with the ever present mass roaches or the immortal push that some protoss users employ in every matchup. Perhaps the real answer is a minor nerf, and a buff to terran mech or something similar.
I am a platinum random player, and I do not feel like it is impossible for protoss to beat terran who goes mass marauders, but I do see the points that protoss players are making, and I believe there is merit there.
On April 04 2010 22:06 cartoon]x wrote: has anyone just tried getting a ton of zealots/ sentries and literally surrounding the marauders with tons of force fields while you charge them with zealots?
Charge has a 10 second cooldown. With equal micro, the Terran player would still come out on top because Sentries are slow units and you need to be able to catch up with the -Stimmed- Marauders to Force Field behind them, which is quite frankly not possible. Otherwise, Charged Zealots are indeed very deadly against Zealots, but it's not enough.
Hmm. I think you can take charge off autocast, and wait to charge until you get some forcefields down. Right?
Whoa. You would have to manually cast Charge and click it for every single Zealot you have. And Sentries wouldn't have gotten any faster either.
This is not true, you don't have to manually cast Charge. Don't mislead people... Also you can turn autocast on/off by pressing alt+(shortcut of skill), so alt+r for repair, alt+c for charge etc
On April 04 2010 22:32 Bash wrote: I am completely flabbergasted by the things some people spout in this thread, I mean we're in beta, we should try to move the game into a direction which is the most enjoyable for all sides, it's not about trying to preserve your own retarded advantage in some area, nor should you be trying to sway people's opinions so that one side gets either unjust buffs or nerfs (which actually happened to toss already).
There are so many people in this thread arguing AGAINST changing the dynamic of the terran army away from the 1-unit-to-rule-them-all that terran is right now. They would literally rather have 1 overpowered unit that requires little skill to use to completely overpower most everything else than a balanced army composition, and what is their argument? It's because apparently protoss had it so easy in BW and only needed to build one unit. This is so bewildering to me I'm beginning to think I'm not on TL at all but on the battle.net forums, not only is that statement grossly untrue, but it also has nothing to do with the subject at hand which is fucking Starcraft 2!
All the while you are complaining about how useless the other terran stuff is and just violently lashing out at the people who seek to improve the game through discussion to "work around" your imbalanced and monotonously broken race because you'd rather stay in your rut of pure marauders than have your race rebalanced in some way.
For the record I think there are severe problems with the way the zerg army works as well, and while protoss is clearly the most "whole" at the moment (I doubt anyone is going to argue against the fact that the typical P army composition is the most interesting and varied at the moment), it still has some ways to go before I'd call it ready for launch. What I'm arguing here is that people are so unwilling to tackle the issues that plague the game because they've quickly learned to abuse them and don't want to let go of their little advantages and this needs to change, at least on these forums if nowhere else.
On a side note I really think this forum needs to be drastically more strict in it's banning policy regarding pure, unadultared idiocy so that the SC2 forum doesn't get even more out of hand that it is already.
So far yours is really the only example of "violently lashing out" that I have seen :/
The majority of this thread has been:
Non Terran players: Marauders suck, nerf them Terran players: Marauders suck, but we have nothing else, if you just straight up nerf them without re-imagining how we will play match ups and buffing those units accordingly, certain other nerfs will have to take place to even out the game German guy conveniently misinterpreting what DeMuslim is saying to attack him in the form of bullet points: They do 20+30, not 50!!!
On April 04 2010 22:06 cartoon]x wrote: has anyone just tried getting a ton of zealots/ sentries and literally surrounding the marauders with tons of force fields while you charge them with zealots?
Charge has a 10 second cooldown. With equal micro, the Terran player would still come out on top because Sentries are slow units and you need to be able to catch up with the -Stimmed- Marauders to Force Field behind them, which is quite frankly not possible. Otherwise, Charged Zealots are indeed very deadly against Zealots, but it's not enough.
Hmm. I think you can take charge off autocast, and wait to charge until you get some forcefields down. Right?
Whoa. You would have to manually cast Charge and click it for every single Zealot you have. And Sentries wouldn't have gotten any faster either.
This is not true, you don't have to manually cast Charge. Don't mislead people... Also you can turn autocast on/off by pressing alt+(shortcut of skill), so alt+r for repair, alt+c for charge etc
I didn't say you had to. I just explained how it goes when you turn the autocast off because I misunderstood the other guy's post. Read my posts again, I just didn't explain it very well the first time.
maybe powering the tank, or bringing back firebat. Marauders are neccesary because terran sucks hard against many threats from zerg and toss, maybe powering static defense (tank) or adding a diferent support (firebats) to rax and reactors could put marauders in a different position after nerfing that unit.
On April 04 2010 22:32 Bash wrote: I am completely flabbergasted by the things some people spout in this thread, I mean we're in beta, we should try to move the game into a direction which is the most enjoyable for all sides, it's not about trying to preserve your own retarded advantage in some area, nor should you be trying to sway people's opinions so that one side gets either unjust buffs or nerfs (which actually happened to toss already).
There are so many people in this thread arguing AGAINST changing the dynamic of the terran army away from the 1-unit-to-rule-them-all that terran is right now. They would literally rather have 1 overpowered unit that requires little skill to use to completely overpower most everything else than a balanced army composition, and what is their argument? It's because apparently protoss had it so easy in BW and only needed to build one unit. This is so bewildering to me I'm beginning to think I'm not on TL at all but on the battle.net forums, not only is that statement grossly untrue, but it also has nothing to do with the subject at hand which is fucking Starcraft 2!
All the while you are complaining about how useless the other terran stuff is and just violently lashing out at the people who seek to improve the game through discussion to "work around" your imbalanced and monotonously broken race because you'd rather stay in your rut of pure marauders than have your race rebalanced in some way.
For the record I think there are severe problems with the way the zerg army works as well, and while protoss is clearly the most "whole" at the moment (I doubt anyone is going to argue against the fact that the typical P army composition is the most interesting and varied at the moment), it still has some ways to go before I'd call it ready for launch. What I'm arguing here is that people are so unwilling to tackle the issues that plague the game because they've quickly learned to abuse them and don't want to let go of their little advantages and this needs to change, at least on these forums if nowhere else.
On a side note I really think this forum needs to be drastically more strict in it's banning policy regarding pure, unadultared idiocy so that the SC2 forum doesn't get even more out of hand that it is already.
this is what happens in all large public discussions.
Hmm, i dunno why i got attacked for saying what i said, - this is a forum after all and a "serious discussion" about marauders. I set forward a valuable point i think, if you nerf marauders you have to change alot of other stuff too - be that buffing other terran units, or nerfing alot of protoss/zerg units - it's very fiddly. As i said previously - the only viable unit early/mid game for terran vs protoss ground is marauders - it's the only one that can survive the brute force that is protoss (now i'm not talking imbalance here, before i get any other flame thrown my way) - it's as simple as that, terran have relatively few choices in how they can react to protoss early which is why your seeing next to no diversity in terran play.
On April 04 2010 21:45 DeMusliM wrote: Almost tired of trying to be constructive with so much whine about marauders - As already stated, marauder are the only unit that even stand a chance early game vs the protoss gateway units, that's a fact. Even then when i say stand a chance - i don't mean counter, i literally mean what i say - stand a chance, even with an expo, and 3 or so bunkers. I've played several good protoss players, one that sticks in my mind called Bischu on the Euro server - he told me he NEVER loses to terran on any map, i won't reveal his strategy - but the fact he came up with something quite simplistic and yet it works with a very high success rate, even when i know exactly what he's gonna do i think that is in itself enough argument to show this mu isn't "ruined by marauder imbalance".
The fact that marauders seem strong - is just because the other terran units are very weak in comparrison.
Sorry to butt in here, but if someone really has a 100% unbeatable strategy vs another race and you're keeping it to yourself you're probably just going to make it take longer for it to be fixed. If everyones doing it, it will be nerfed. It's what beta is for.
I've deep respect of the creator of this topic, but its plain wrong that Marauders are imbalanced in any aspect. First of all you got to micro your marauders, then they 'counter' a zealot in 1v1. And they will counter a stalker in 1v1 without micro.
But have you ever thought about not being stupid and probably building 1 zealot and a stalker? The Zealot tanks the damage and the stalker is faster than a marauder and will kill it. Even works 1Zealot/1Stalker vs 2 Marauder if the Terran isn't paying attention for a second.
If you play a 2 rax Marauderrush like LzGamer suggested in another thread (Supply, Rax,Rax,Gas, OC, Supply Calldown) you'll get 2 marauders vs 1 stalker with the robotics finished and an immortal building. That immortal will rip through 3 or 4 marauders without big trouble because the fucking immortal deals 50 damage to marauders, got nearly 2,5x the HP and builds AS FAST AS a marauder (when being chronoboosted),
If you guys die to 1 Rax Marauder FE? Right, please don't tell me to watch HasuObs vs LucifroNNN because HasuObs didn't play it right. You can easily play 3 Warpgate + Robotics or 4 Warpgate fully supporting everything and Terran has a hard, if not impossible time to defend vs that, because as I mentioned the zealots tank the damage, sentries reduce the damage and stalkers go rape shit.
I tried those builds all with HasuObs and I played completely the same build LucifroNNN played. 1 Marine, 1 Marauder -> Expansion -> 2 more Marauders -> Stim while adding 2 more barracks. HasuObs told me if he knew before he would have won easily. So please people come down and take a deeper look before calling a unit imbalanced.
Also make use of your spellcasters like the sentry, who can easily cast forcefields in between the marauders to make them ridiculously spread and useless.
On April 04 2010 21:45 DeMusliM wrote: Almost tired of trying to be constructive with so much whine about marauders - As already stated, marauder are the only unit that even stand a chance early game vs the protoss gateway units, that's a fact. Even then when i say stand a chance - i don't mean counter, i literally mean what i say - stand a chance, even with an expo, and 3 or so bunkers. I've played several good protoss players, one that sticks in my mind called Bischu on the Euro server - he told me he NEVER loses to terran on any map, i won't reveal his strategy - but the fact he came up with something quite simplistic and yet it works with a very high success rate, even when i know exactly what he's gonna do i think that is in itself enough argument to show this mu isn't "ruined by marauder imbalance".
The fact that marauders seem strong - is just because the other terran units are very weak in comparrison.
Sorry to butt in here, but if someone really has a 100% unbeatable strategy vs another race and you're keeping it to yourself you're probably just going to make it take longer for it to be fixed. If everyones doing it, it will be nerfed. It's what beta is for.
On April 04 2010 19:12 bLah. wrote: You can't compare units 1v1 like stalker vs marauder because races are too different. It just doesn't work that way, mechanics are totally different + you have different support units etc +dude, you have immortals. I'm really sick of people forcing their own strategies and not looking at the game at all. Everyone is like: "I want to make XY unit and it has to beat ZQ unit". NO!, it totally doesn't matter what you want, you have to play the game as it should be played. There are perfectly good counters for everything in this game, you just have to learn how to use it.
or just try playing terran, get into plat div and play vs tosses and you'll see that we don't really have easymode there.
imho if marauders will get nerf then roaches/immortals/sentries need nerf + terran mech needs buff. Try playing terran on higher level and you'll see yourself what are possibilities.
On April 04 2010 22:32 Bash wrote: I am completely flabbergasted by the things some people spout in this thread, I mean we're in beta, we should try to move the game into a direction which is the most enjoyable for all sides, it's not about trying to preserve your own retarded advantage in some area, nor should you be trying to sway people's opinions so that one side gets either unjust buffs or nerfs (which actually happened to toss already).
There are so many people in this thread arguing AGAINST changing the dynamic of the terran army away from the 1-unit-to-rule-them-all that terran is right now. They would literally rather have 1 overpowered unit that requires little skill to use to completely overpower most everything else than a balanced army composition, and what is their argument? It's because apparently protoss had it so easy in BW and only needed to build one unit. This is so bewildering to me I'm beginning to think I'm not on TL at all but on the battle.net forums, not only is that statement grossly untrue, but it also has nothing to do with the subject at hand which is fucking Starcraft 2!
All the while you are complaining about how useless the other terran stuff is and just violently lashing out at the people who seek to improve the game through discussion to "work around" your imbalanced and monotonously broken race because you'd rather stay in your rut of pure marauders than have your race rebalanced in some way.
For the record I think there are severe problems with the way the zerg army works as well, and while protoss is clearly the most "whole" at the moment (I doubt anyone is going to argue against the fact that the typical P army composition is the most interesting and varied at the moment), it still has some ways to go before I'd call it ready for launch. What I'm arguing here is that people are so unwilling to tackle the issues that plague the game because they've quickly learned to abuse them and don't want to let go of their little advantages and this needs to change, at least on these forums if nowhere else.
On a side note I really think this forum needs to be drastically more strict in it's banning policy regarding pure, unadultared idiocy so that the SC2 forum doesn't get even more out of hand that it is already.
Suggesting that everyone (including one of the best if not the best European Terran players and TL.net MODERATOR that is also one of the best Euro terrans) that disagrees with you shows "pure, unadultared idiocy" is not the best way to go, you know?
There is NOTHING wrong with units being specialised - infantry GTA unit? Marine. Infantry GTG unit? Marauder. Infantry caster? Ghost. So try to be slightly more polite... I too dislike the role of marauders ATM, i hoped that T army will be mix of rines and rauders, but so far the game changed so that rauders are main unit used when enemy uses ground forces with rines being units added when air appears (just like you massed rines as main offensive units in BW TvZ and added bats when enemy makes too many lings) and it is really nothing that "DRASTICALLY NEEDS CHANGE OMG". It would be cool if game had very wide variety of units used and if marauders will be dominant Blizz will change them, but if rauders will just fulfill their role they won't
you have to remember half of the reason people make these comments is they didnt read the whole thread. It might be that buffing mech alone would bring the needed diversity.. Most of the beef with marauders seems to be with the lack of diversity. That's my beef with them.
What amazes me is that in BW, going infantry against protoss is weak simply because all protoss tech seems to counter it. Sure M&M will steamroll gateway units, but storm, archons, reavers, etc, all just crush bio. Terran adapted by going heavily mech in this matchup. Why do Terran players somehow feel like they should be able to spam infantry and have it be effective vs high tech protoss?
Psi storm in BW absolutely obliterates infantry. And then we get a psi storm nerf because of that in SC2? Meh, I'm ranting.
Marauders definitely need some sort of nerf, simply because they are more effective than seemingly ever other terran unit. Yes marauders are too strong, but we need to tweak the rest of the terran army as well. No army should be able to or forced to mass one very powerful unit.
I think Marauders are actually a lot of fun (no i am not a terran) and the way they are implemented is very smart but I agree that there are still things that could be improved.
Well, i think the point of the original post was to show that marauders are the only unit that terran build. For their cost they are very effective and probably one of the strongest general purpose units in the game.
I think this means terran needs a review as a whole.
On April 04 2010 22:27 MeProU_Kor wrote: i dont know why people talk about marauders. i play P and T (more P) in platinum on place 8 and im happy if they go MMM+G, the first days i thought its very imbalanced but at that moment where you get used to feedback ghosts there is nothing and really nothing a bio army can do against a mixed p army. only problem i often see is that early marauders can put much pressure, but many people are just chrobo boosting their nexus all the time and the first unit they build is a immortal. seriously learn to use sentrys forcefield and delay the terran first, pick marauderes one by one that way and you will get in time your immortal + support units and will counter him. @ all the whiners who say now "GHOST + EMP so imba and they destroy immortals" learn to split your armyat that moment where the terran has 1ghost you will have 2-3 immortals and he wont have a 2nd base and lategame PvT TvP is in favor of P by far. storm + colo own everything.
i dont get it why people always complain about P/T imbalance, if the only race that is imbalanced Z is. seriously they can expan where and when they want with their 300 mineral hatches and mapcontroll in the early game + they shit per hatch 7 larvas. the best is that they dont even need to be 1 base ahead like in sc1 so why are the hatches cheaper/faster than a cc/nexus?
T early game > P early Game but T late game < P late game same like other matchups in sc1.
That's very nice, but if the Terran has 3-4 Ghosts you're screwed. No matter how good you split your army he will EMP the crap out of you. So far the best counter I've seen is the strategy HasuObs uses. He builds Cannons and Pylons around Xel'Naga towers in order to have great mapcontrol and vision so he can use this advantage to Feedback Ghosts before they actually see what to EMP. But he still has to be very quick and that can't be applied to every game and to every position you can spawn in.
so the terran has 4 ghosts but you dont have HTs/ranged Colossus/halucination? Stim is 150 Gas, Marauders are 25 Gas each and Ghost are 150 Gas each and the Ghostacademy is 50 Gas + techlabs each 25 Gas. you even dont need to be ahead of the T on bases like in sc1 so wait for your tech and expand then. i see many protoss expanding before a Terran with ~4 RAX and staying on 1 base and wonder why they get roflstomped. its because they are dumb and expand without a reason or a chance to hold the expo.
and no, the reason i kept his strategy a secret was he's in zotac today - i don't want to fumble his chances by blowing my mouth off. It's just respect, not cowardness.
Bischu - just beat MorroW, i wasn't lieing about his strategy being good, and yet simple ;S
On April 04 2010 23:09 Haemonculus wrote: What amazes me is that in BW, going infantry against protoss is weak simply because all protoss tech seems to counter it. Sure M&M will steamroll gateway units, but storm, archons, reavers, etc, all just crush bio. Terran adapted by going heavily mech in this matchup. Why do Terran players somehow feel like they should be able to spam infantry and have it be effective vs high tech protoss?
Psi storm in BW absolutely obliterates infantry. And then we get a psi storm nerf because of that in SC2? Meh, I'm ranting.
Marauders definitely need some sort of nerf, simply because they are more effective than seemingly ever other terran unit. Yes marauders are too strong, but we need to tweak the rest of the terran army as well. No army should be able to or forced to mass one very powerful unit.
OK here's something actually. I am one of the people who think everything should be viable versus everything. I don't think that terrans should always have to go mech against protoss.
Of course I don't mean bio should be able to take storms in the face. I mean, if a Terran wanted to go bio instead of mech, it should simply mean a different playstyle. In this case, I guess it would mean crazy macro. Instead of expensive mech that can take a couple storms, you make a zillion cheap marines, 90% of which are going to die to storms, but still leaving like 50 to win the battle.
I think it would offer some great entertainment as a spectator if pros could not only be good at a given matchup, but good at a certain unit composition in a given matchup.
On April 04 2010 19:16 omninmo wrote: colossus is so OP..fix that first, i think the marauder solution is to have their attack only slow once every 3 attacks.
Stupid... how are colossus OP if they can be attacked by both air and ground units. I find it's way balanced, it moves pretty slow and requires many resources to produce
On April 04 2010 23:09 Haemonculus wrote: What amazes me is that in BW, going infantry against protoss is weak simply because all protoss tech seems to counter it. Sure M&M will steamroll gateway units, but storm, archons, reavers, etc, all just crush bio. Terran adapted by going heavily mech in this matchup. Why do Terran players somehow feel like they should be able to spam infantry and have it be effective vs high tech protoss?
Psi storm in BW absolutely obliterates infantry. And then we get a psi storm nerf because of that in SC2? Meh, I'm ranting.
Marauders definitely need some sort of nerf, simply because they are more effective than seemingly ever other terran unit. Yes marauders are too strong, but we need to tweak the rest of the terran army as well. No army should be able to or forced to mass one very powerful unit.
because mech doesnt work, and thats the real issue. maybe marauders rnt making the game imbalanced, but the way blizzard has it right now is that all terrans r forced to pump really many marauders instead of doing something else which i think is lame as hell. u should be able to pick mech bio or biomech in every match up, but right now its pretty much biomech in tvz, mech tvt and bio tvp, its not very optional and i think the real solution of this is to buff mech and nerf marauders, probably gonna take some patches to make this work tho since its a big change
On April 04 2010 23:22 DeMusliM wrote: and no, the reason i kept his strategy a secret was he's in zotac today - i don't want to fumble his chances by blowing my mouth off. It's just respect, not cowardness.
Bischu - just beat MorroW, i wasn't lieing about his strategy being good, and yet simple ;S
i lost because im sick and i didnt practice much at all this week, i probably woulda won if i just opened a normal marauder fe and kept on making marauders all game but i really dont see the fun in that :/
another reason im not playing much is just about what we talk about in this subject. its not very fun to play sc2 when tvz is imba and tvp is broken straight up mass marauder, only tvt is fun but it is too revolved around luck, just like the other mirror mus.
On April 04 2010 23:09 Haemonculus wrote: What amazes me is that in BW, going infantry against protoss is weak simply because all protoss tech seems to counter it. Sure M&M will steamroll gateway units, but storm, archons, reavers, etc, all just crush bio. Terran adapted by going heavily mech in this matchup. Why do Terran players somehow feel like they should be able to spam infantry and have it be effective vs high tech protoss?
Psi storm in BW absolutely obliterates infantry. And then we get a psi storm nerf because of that in SC2? Meh, I'm ranting.
Marauders definitely need some sort of nerf, simply because they are more effective than seemingly ever other terran unit. Yes marauders are too strong, but we need to tweak the rest of the terran army as well. No army should be able to or forced to mass one very powerful unit.
It seems to me that, while it is very difficult (if not impossible) to tell whether any particular unit is imbalanced or not, something we can pick up on here is simply the fact that a lot of people are not finding the marauder any fun to play with or against.
This could be due to its visual design, its conceptual suitability within the fiction, or its actual stats as a unit (and subsequent lack of diversity, as pointed out above).
Time can only really tell as to whether people will develop new tactics which don't rely on the marauder, but at the moment that isn't really even the point. People are not finding them fun to play with - this is something Blizzard should take note of.
The way it seems, then, is this: either Blizzard needs to wait and see what happens with people's play style (maybe even do some agressive testing themselves as to whether there is a suitable tactical workaround in the game itself), or they need to change the situation in some way.
So, to reiterate, we can't tell if they need a nerf or even how to nerf them, only that people have a problem, and that problem is generally expressed as "they arn't fun to play with or against". The rest is up to Blizzard to sort out!
Although that's not to say that musing over how one might change the unit isn't interesting or fun, I just wanted to say how I saw things..
On April 04 2010 22:55 DeMusliM wrote: Hmm, i dunno why i got attacked for saying what i said, - this is a forum after all and a "serious discussion" about marauders. I set forward a valuable point i think, if you nerf marauders you have to change alot of other stuff too - be that buffing other terran units, or nerfing alot of protoss/zerg units - it's very fiddly. As i said previously - the only viable unit early/mid game for terran vs protoss ground is marauders - it's the only one that can survive the brute force that is protoss (now i'm not talking imbalance here, before i get any other flame thrown my way) - it's as simple as that, terran have relatively few choices in how they can react to protoss early which is why your seeing next to no diversity in terran play.
I edited your first post into the OP because I thought it was excellent. The foremost issue is the lack of diversity - balance can be worked out imo.
marauders just should not be armored high-hitpoint units. they are infantry, not tanks for gods sake. either it is a battlesuit, which would belong to the factory, or its an infantry unit and shouldn't have tank stats. it's just bad design, really. (as with many of the armor-type and bonus damage allocations.)
On April 04 2010 20:37 DeMusliM wrote: Terran can't viably go Mech either, as much as they want to - Immortals counter that whole building single handedly, and with immortals popping out through chrono boost - terran would need alot more factories to even think about outmassing.
Except Ghost counters Immortals extremely well.
I don't get the people claiming Immortal counters Marauders.
Immortal Health: 250 hp, 100 shields (hardned shield, which is instantly nuked by EMP) Damage: 20+30 Range: 5 Costs: 250+100 Tier: 2
Three Marauders Health: 375hp (which can be healed) Damage: 30+30 damage (with an extremely powerful slow). Do (basically) a massive 45+45 damage when stimmed (which is most of the time). Range: 6 Costs: 300 + 75 Tier: 1
There is no way for one Immortal to beat 3 microed Marauders, especially once they have stim, EMP or medivac support. And this is suppose to be the "counter" unit? The Marauders cost for cost have far more damage (double when stimmed), better range and move faster than the higher tier "counter" unit, Immortals, on top of that they can be healed and have one of the most powerful debuffs in the game as a passive. The cost and health is similar.
Doesn't any Terran who is interested in the slightest bit of a balanced and interesting game see that the Marauder is way too powerful in its current form?
On April 04 2010 23:46 KULA_u wrote: marauders just should not be armored high-hitpoint units. they are infantry, not tanks for gods sake. either it is a battlesuit, which would belong to the factory, or its an infantry unit and shouldn't have tank stats. it's just bad design, really. (as with many of the armor-type and bonus damage allocations.)
Please, don't start the "omg its not realistic" thing again. Hellions come from the fac and they're no tank-units...
I think when marauders get nerfed hellions and reapers need to be changed. Especially the reaper is purely a harass-unit which becomes useless in mid/late game. A bit the same for hellions but they can be pretty good vs some unit compositions mid/late game. A tweak to the reaper and hellion should make up for the marauder change.
I actually agree with Plexa on the idea of diversity, but ONLY in terms of higher leveled players that are using these strategies the most. A lot of higher level Terran player has been made up of Marauder only play. Still, even though my TvP isn't astounding, I've incorporated marines as a primary meat shield in my army.
But I honestly don't think that Marauders should be nerfed. Maybe the amount that they decrease speed should be nerfed a bit, but like DeMusliM said, it's really all Terran really has. And to anybody in the thread that says that Marauders counter everything, that's just B.S. Marauders don't counter temps, nor do they counter collosus in any sense. If you're losing, it's because your unit composition is set up wrong and you didn't have the micro needed to handle Marauders.
And if you think about it, TvP is VERY reminiscent of TvZ in Starcraft One. So let's see what units you had in SC1 Eh? And then let's talk about diversity.
Marines (Eh. You can toss this aside) Marauders Medivacs (Sadly, less tanks) Ravens Vikings Ghosts
Who says that there's no diversity here? O_o I mean, granted, some people are just opting for these all-in marauder builds, but that's only a select few games out of thousands in the beta. If you're asking me, if there's a lack of diversity in ANY matchup, it would HAVE to be TvP.
I agree with all of you but we see mass marauder because most of ppl conplain about mass marine. Now with the nerf on them we only one way to go to still competivly with the other race.
Even with a buff for the mech, mech will still nothing against toss because of the imortal who do 50 dmg on a tank and receive almost nothing unless with obs and if you go mech you won't have that much of gas for some ghost
On April 04 2010 22:32 Bash wrote: I am completely flabbergasted by the things some people spout in this thread, I mean we're in beta, we should try to move the game into a direction which is the most enjoyable for all sides, it's not about trying to preserve your own retarded advantage in some area, nor should you be trying to sway people's opinions so that one side gets either unjust buffs or nerfs (which actually happened to toss already).
There are so many people in this thread arguing AGAINST changing the dynamic of the terran army away from the 1-unit-to-rule-them-all that terran is right now. They would literally rather have 1 overpowered unit that requires little skill to use to completely overpower most everything else than a balanced army composition, and what is their argument? It's because apparently protoss had it so easy in BW and only needed to build one unit. This is so bewildering to me I'm beginning to think I'm not on TL at all but on the battle.net forums, not only is that statement grossly untrue, but it also has nothing to do with the subject at hand which is fucking Starcraft 2!
All the while you are complaining about how useless the other terran stuff is and just violently lashing out at the people who seek to improve the game through discussion to "work around" your imbalanced and monotonously broken race because you'd rather stay in your rut of pure marauders than have your race rebalanced in some way.
For the record I think there are severe problems with the way the zerg army works as well, and while protoss is clearly the most "whole" at the moment (I doubt anyone is going to argue against the fact that the typical P army composition is the most interesting and varied at the moment), it still has some ways to go before I'd call it ready for launch. What I'm arguing here is that people are so unwilling to tackle the issues that plague the game because they've quickly learned to abuse them and don't want to let go of their little advantages and this needs to change, at least on these forums if nowhere else.
On a side note I really think this forum needs to be drastically more strict in it's banning policy regarding pure, unadultared idiocy so that the SC2 forum doesn't get even more out of hand that it is already.
This is by far one of the best and truest posts in this discussion.
On April 04 2010 23:55 Zergneedsfood wrote: I actually agree with Plexa on the idea of diversity, but ONLY in terms of higher leveled players that are using these strategies the most. A lot of higher level Terran player has been made up of Marauder only play. Still, even though my TvP isn't astounding, I've incorporated marines as a primary meat shield in my army.
But I honestly don't think that Marauders should be nerfed. Maybe the amount that they decrease speed should be nerfed a bit, but like DeMusliM said, it's really all Terran really has. And to anybody in the thread that says that Marauders counter everything, that's just B.S. Marauders don't counter temps, nor do they counter collosus in any sense. If you're losing, it's because your unit composition is set up wrong and you didn't have the micro needed to handle Marauders.
And if you think about it, TvP is VERY reminiscent of TvZ in Starcraft One. So let's see what units you had in SC1 Eh? And then let's talk about diversity.
Marines (Eh. You can toss this aside) Marauders Medivacs (Sadly, less tanks) Ravens Vikings Ghosts
Who says that there's no diversity here? O_o I mean, granted, some people are just opting for these all-in marauder builds, but that's only a select few games out of thousands in the beta. If you're asking me, if there's a lack of diversity in ANY matchup, it would HAVE to be TvP.
Tanks. Vultures.
MAYBE Goliaths......MAYBE Science Vessels.
what i do in sc2 tvp
marauder fe more rax more marauders etc
then about 9 rax pumping marauders
only marauders
scan to see if he make void ray, ok no
attack, win
it works better than anything, which i find very sad. been able to win many top tier zvt gamers like this too with more success. its ridiculous tt
On April 04 2010 22:32 Bash wrote: I am completely flabbergasted by the things some people spout in this thread, I mean we're in beta, we should try to move the game into a direction which is the most enjoyable for all sides, it's not about trying to preserve your own retarded advantage in some area, nor should you be trying to sway people's opinions so that one side gets either unjust buffs or nerfs (which actually happened to toss already).
There are so many people in this thread arguing AGAINST changing the dynamic of the terran army away from the 1-unit-to-rule-them-all that terran is right now. They would literally rather have 1 overpowered unit that requires little skill to use to completely overpower most everything else than a balanced army composition, and what is their argument? It's because apparently protoss had it so easy in BW and only needed to build one unit. This is so bewildering to me I'm beginning to think I'm not on TL at all but on the battle.net forums, not only is that statement grossly untrue, but it also has nothing to do with the subject at hand which is fucking Starcraft 2!
All the while you are complaining about how useless the other terran stuff is and just violently lashing out at the people who seek to improve the game through discussion to "work around" your imbalanced and monotonously broken race because you'd rather stay in your rut of pure marauders than have your race rebalanced in some way.
For the record I think there are severe problems with the way the zerg army works as well, and while protoss is clearly the most "whole" at the moment (I doubt anyone is going to argue against the fact that the typical P army composition is the most interesting and varied at the moment), it still has some ways to go before I'd call it ready for launch. What I'm arguing here is that people are so unwilling to tackle the issues that plague the game because they've quickly learned to abuse them and don't want to let go of their little advantages and this needs to change, at least on these forums if nowhere else.
On a side note I really think this forum needs to be drastically more strict in it's banning policy regarding pure, unadultared idiocy so that the SC2 forum doesn't get even more out of hand that it is already.
I think that while your post is true, the only reason why it doesn't seem like it's TL is because we have a new influx of members, some of them aware of what TL is supposed to represent, others....not so much.
Admittedly I haven't read the whole thread, but between what I have read from this thread and several others I find it interesting that nobody was complaining about the power of marauders back before marines got nerfed... now that terrans can't rely on marines as much suddenly marauders are overpowered? Even if you are just saying terrans are lacking in diversity... well duh? They nerfed one of the two most common units... the reduction in diversity makes enemy air units that much more effective though.
I almost lost a tvz on desert oasis... I was keeping up in economy and the ground war, but he saved up larva, hid a spire somewhere, and massed up so many mutas that I was in sooo much trouble lol
A lot of people talked about the balance between "The Trinity"(Roach, Immortals and Marauders). Let's theoretically remove those units from the game. I can't speak for other races since I'm a terran player so my bias is probably based on that too. This is how I see would affect the terran matchups.
TvZ: Terran doesn't need marauders when they see roaches. This allows more diversity for other strats given more tweaks to the game.
TvP: Terran can go mech without worrying about the immortals destroying tanks.
TvT: Mirror match but I personally think that marauders destroy tanks heavy game there too.
I mean I don't want to remove these units. But the idea's interesting to think about. Seriously, those units really do dictate your overall strategies really really early. The hard counters decide the tone of the game which destroy viability of different openings/strategies. This kind of leads to that perhaps hard counters should not exist early game or there should be something to discourage you from going that strategy, perhaps you will almost always lose to its counter if the opponent sees it coming.
On April 05 2010 00:10 SirNeb wrote: A lot of people talked about the balance between "The Trinity"(Roach, Immortals and Marauders). Let's theoretically remove those units from the game. I can't speak for other races since I'm a terran player so my bias is probably based on that too. This is how I see would affect the terran matchups.
TvZ: Terran doesn't need marauders when they see roaches. This allows more diversity for other strats given more tweaks to the game.
TvP: Terran can go mech without worrying about the immortals destroying tanks.
TvT: Mirror match but I personally think that marauders destroy tanks heavy game there too.
I mean I don't want to remove these units. But the idea's interesting to think about. Seriously, those units really do dictate your overall strategies really really early. The hard counters decide the tone of the game which destroy viability of different openings/strategies. This kind of leads to that perhaps hard counters should not exist early game or there should be something to discourage you from going that strategy, perhaps you will almost always lose to its counter if the opponent sees it coming.
If you remove those units you inherently go back to Starcraft 1 strategy. TvZ would be almost a no brainer because Terran would go for some crazy reaper/marine strategy that rapes all light armored infantry, which is all what Zerg has until the midgame.
In TvT, you'd get TvT in Starcraft 1 all over again with medivacs and tanks because marines are unviable in the latter stages of the game.
And in TvP, you revert back to a tank/hellion/thor concept which is reminiscent of tank/vulture/goliath vs. zealot/staulker, maybe sentry/temp, which are almost exactly like Starcraft 1.
The reason why these units were placed was because it changed the mindset away from Starcraft 1, and into a more "Starcraft 2" perspective. Eliminating these units would inherently bring us all back to Starcraft 1 in better graphics.
Which is why I agree. These units are very important. lulz....sorry if I sound overly aggressive. :D
On April 05 2010 00:14 Zergneedsfood wrote:The reason why these units were placed was because it changed the mindset away from Starcraft 1, and into a more "Starcraft 2" perspective. Eliminating these units would inherently bring us all back to Starcraft 1 in better graphics.
hehe, that's up for discussion whether or not that's a good or bad thing.
Having the slowing grenade on every shot of the Marauder AND coming as a base ability is just stupid.
Solutions:
1) have the upgrade researchable on the tech lab or engineering bay. This makes early games more interesting as the dynamics between units will shift once the slowing attack kicks in.
2) Have the slowing attack be an on/off ability for marauders. There should be a delay between switching it on and off (2 seconds?). If this isn't enough, make Marauders attack slightly slower while having easymode active.
3) Have the slowing grenade only work on biological units. This doesn't change the dynamic on TvZ, and it allows for immortal/stalker micro against the marauder.
On April 04 2010 23:55 Zergneedsfood wrote: I actually agree with Plexa on the idea of diversity, but ONLY in terms of higher leveled players that are using these strategies the most. A lot of higher level Terran player has been made up of Marauder only play. Still, even though my TvP isn't astounding, I've incorporated marines as a primary meat shield in my army.
But I honestly don't think that Marauders should be nerfed. Maybe the amount that they decrease speed should be nerfed a bit, but like DeMusliM said, it's really all Terran really has. And to anybody in the thread that says that Marauders counter everything, that's just B.S. Marauders don't counter temps, nor do they counter collosus in any sense. If you're losing, it's because your unit composition is set up wrong and you didn't have the micro needed to handle Marauders.
And if you think about it, TvP is VERY reminiscent of TvZ in Starcraft One. So let's see what units you had in SC1 Eh? And then let's talk about diversity.
Marines (Eh. You can toss this aside) Marauders Medivacs (Sadly, less tanks) Ravens Vikings Ghosts
Who says that there's no diversity here? O_o I mean, granted, some people are just opting for these all-in marauder builds, but that's only a select few games out of thousands in the beta. If you're asking me, if there's a lack of diversity in ANY matchup, it would HAVE to be TvP.
Tanks. Vultures.
MAYBE Goliaths......MAYBE Science Vessels.
what i do in sc2 tvp
marauder fe more rax more marauders etc
then about 9 rax pumping marauders
only marauders
scan to see if he make void ray, ok no
attack, win
it works better than anything, which i find very sad. been able to win many top tier zvt gamers like this too with more success. its ridiculous tt
I think ppl should give credit to such comments from top progamers. They don't really often give comments about balance or nerfing.
If Morrow and 80% of this thread says that smth wrong with maradeurs then this might be true.
Terran game mechanics should be changed, this is ridiculous that it's best option is to spam one unit
On April 05 2010 00:14 Zergneedsfood wrote:The reason why these units were placed was because it changed the mindset away from Starcraft 1, and into a more "Starcraft 2" perspective. Eliminating these units would inherently bring us all back to Starcraft 1 in better graphics.
hehe, that's up for discussion whether or not that's a good or bad thing.
That actually makes sense. But I think that since Starcraft 2 is supposed to bring in a bunch of different communities (Command and Conquer, Civilization, Starcraft 1, Warcraft 3, the noobies that play WOW, oh wait what?), I think it's best to shift focus and have something that's reminiscent of Starcraft 1 in style, but different in terms of actual gameplay.
It gives us a breathe of fresh air to know that we're trying out something new and different. If we were too close to Starcraft 1, players would start moaning and groaning again over all the problems they had in the first game, which would be extremely boring. If anything, it's obvious that even though a lot of you guys (not me, I was a D+ noobie), were good Starcraft 1 players, the same mindset doesn't always apply.
In times like this, it's good to have general knowledge of gameplay, which is what Day[9] emphasizes a lot when he talks about general expansion tips, general strategy, macro, micro. These are all general but important tips because the beta is so complex and so strategically different in terms of how you control your troops.
But you know. If there are any players that are going to rock Starcraft 2, it better be us Starcraft 1 players.
And to reply to Morrow's build that has a lot of marauders.....
...
...
Well that blows my argument out of the water. I'm guessing then that an appropriate nerf would be to reduce Marauder range and downsize the amount of speed it decreases. Marauders do get a bunch of shots off before the opponent even comes knocking on your door.....
And I just tried the 1rax Marauder rush against a competent friend....it worked splendidly....
On April 04 2010 22:27 MeProU_Kor wrote: i dont know why people talk about marauders. i play P and T (more P) in platinum on place 8 and im happy if they go MMM+G, the first days i thought its very imbalanced but at that moment where you get used to feedback ghosts there is nothing and really nothing a bio army can do against a mixed p army. only problem i often see is that early marauders can put much pressure, but many people are just chrobo boosting their nexus all the time and the first unit they build is a immortal. seriously learn to use sentrys forcefield and delay the terran first, pick marauderes one by one that way and you will get in time your immortal + support units and will counter him. @ all the whiners who say now "GHOST + EMP so imba and they destroy immortals" learn to split your armyat that moment where the terran has 1ghost you will have 2-3 immortals and he wont have a 2nd base and lategame PvT TvP is in favor of P by far. storm + colo own everything.
i dont get it why people always complain about P/T imbalance, if the only race that is imbalanced Z is. seriously they can expan where and when they want with their 300 mineral hatches and mapcontroll in the early game + they shit per hatch 7 larvas. the best is that they dont even need to be 1 base ahead like in sc1 so why are the hatches cheaper/faster than a cc/nexus?
T early game > P early Game but T late game < P late game same like other matchups in sc1.
That's very nice, but if the Terran has 3-4 Ghosts you're screwed. No matter how good you split your army he will EMP the crap out of you. So far the best counter I've seen is the strategy HasuObs uses. He builds Cannons and Pylons around Xel'Naga towers in order to have great mapcontrol and vision so he can use this advantage to Feedback Ghosts before they actually see what to EMP. But he still has to be very quick and that can't be applied to every game and to every position you can spawn in.
so the terran has 4 ghosts but you dont have HTs/ranged Colossus/halucination? Stim is 150 Gas, Marauders are 25 Gas each and Ghost are 150 Gas each and the Ghostacademy is 50 Gas + techlabs each 25 Gas. you even dont need to be ahead of the T on bases like in sc1 so wait for your tech and expand then. i see many protoss expanding before a Terran with ~4 RAX and staying on 1 base and wonder why they get roflstomped. its because they are dumb and expand without a reason or a chance to hold the expo.
You wanna talk about gas cost ? Seriously ? Sentry is 100g each, HT is 150g each, Hallucination is another 100g for upgrade, Storm is 200g, Colossus is 200g each and the upgrade range is another 200g and each Stalker is 50g. So really, don't bring gas cost into this, because Protoss is probably the race that spends the most. Not to mention it doesn't change anything to the fact that EMP and Feedback have same range. You can scout with Hallucination, it will get destroyed immediatly and you will have 0.5 sec to Feedback, great. Ranged Colossus are no use without vision, same debate. You can use Observers (ANOTHER 100g) but there's scan, etc...
And I don't recall talking about expanding or holding expansions. Just the EMP/Feedback thing.
On April 05 2010 00:04 micronesia wrote: Admittedly I haven't read the whole thread, but between what I have read from this thread and several others I find it interesting that nobody was complaining about the power of marauders back before marines got nerfed... now that terrans can't rely on marines as much suddenly marauders are overpowered? Even if you are just saying terrans are lacking in diversity... well duh? They nerfed one of the two most common units... the reduction in diversity makes enemy air units that much more effective though.
I almost lost a tvz on desert oasis... I was keeping up in economy and the ground war, but he saved up larva, hid a spire somewhere, and massed up so many mutas that I was in sooo much trouble lol
Actually people have been complaining about Marauders for quite a while now. It's just that the recent patch has made the problem even worse now that 99% of T games are just massing Maruaders.
Still, I don't know why people are trying to dismiss us as whiners. Almost every single person who is "whining" has already stated that we want T mech to be buffed as well, and that unit diversity is a major problem in the Terran army. Making SC2 fun is the utmost priority, and that's just not gonna happen when every single Terran is massing Marauders/Medivacs every single game.
Pretty much all of the three "holy trinity" units (Roach, Marauder, Immortal) need to get nerfed in some way. It's just horrible how these units completely dominate all the matchups in SC2. 99% of SC2 strategies can basically be summed up as "Tech fast so I can counter the Marauder/Roach/Immortal as quickly as I can". SC2 certainly won't last long as an e-sport if these units go to retail the way they are now.
The Roach and Marauder aren't necessarily bad ideas... I don't feel that they were designed as being hard counters in the first place. IMO they were probably just meant to be tier 1.5 tanky units because both Z and T lacked one in BW. I really feel that the problem with them is the way Blizzard tweaked their stats over time (made them too tanky). These units should stay because they can potentially bring interesting stuff to the game (Marauder kiting and Roach burrowing).
Also, I think that the Roach was moved back to Tier 1 so that it would be able to act as a ranged unit able to compete with the Zergling to fix ZvZ. Well thought out from Blizzard.
However, I feel that the Immortal with its current ''hard counter'' skill, the Hardened Shield, simply has no place in SC2. There was technically no need for Immortals since Mech already had two tactical counters in BW (lack of Mobility and friendly splash damage) that are still present in SC2 for Protoss to abuse. Because Blizz decided to create this massable, a-movable, boring unit, heavy Mech play is neglected by Terran and you can't mech unless you have enough ghosts.
If the original objective was to balance out Bio/Mech usage vs toss... I'm sorry to say that they failed.
The Immortal is not as good as Marauder, period. In fact, PvT I usually only get one or two of them at most. Then I have to switch to Colossus, because after Terran gets EMP, the Immortal is as good as a piece of junk.
Furthermore, if you overcommit to immortals the Terran can easily get Banshees, and destroy the Protoss - they already have the Stargate up for the Medivacs, while the Protoss still have to build a Starport in order to counter those Banshees.
Neither are Roaches. Roaches are a good solid unit, kind of like Hydralisks, except they are lower in the tree. Three Marauders can destroy 6-8 Roaches with some micro.
Marauders can kill whatever they want without them having to even take a hit. Only way to stop a proxy barracks Marauder rush is by GGing.
I think that a simple HP nerf would be sufficient (also what I wish they would've done to the Roach).
The more complex thing I wish they'd do would be the removal of the Reaper and Medivac followed by the reimplementation of the Medic as well as a significant HP nerf to the Marauder (as well as a possible range decrease from 6 to 5).
On April 05 2010 01:01 Deviation wrote: I think that a simple HP nerf would be sufficient (also what I wish they would've done to the Roach).
The more complex thing I wish they'd do would be the removal of the Reaper and Medivac followed by the reimplementation of the Medic as well as a significant HP nerf to the Marauder.
Might as well give Hellions mines and switch their attacks with the Marauder right? :D
But I think an HP nerf would actually be not that bad either.
On April 04 2010 20:37 DeMusliM wrote: Terran can't viably go Mech either, as much as they want to - Immortals counter that whole building single handedly, and with immortals popping out through chrono boost - terran would need alot more factories to even think about outmassing.
Except Ghost counters Immortals extremely well.
I don't get the people claiming Immortal counters Marauders.
Immortal Health: 250 hp, 100 shields (hardned shield, which is instantly nuked by EMP) Damage: 20+30 Range: 5 Costs: 250+100 Tier: 2
Three Marauders Health: 375hp (which can be healed) Damage: 30+30 damage (with an extremely powerful slow). Do (basically) a massive 45+45 damage when stimmed (which is most of the time). Range: 6 Costs: 300 + 75 Tier: 1
There is no way for one Immortal to beat 3 microed Marauders, especially once they have stim, EMP or medivac support. And this is suppose to be the "counter" unit? The Marauders cost for cost have far more damage (double when stimmed), better range and move faster than the higher tier "counter" unit, Immortals, on top of that they can be healed and have one of the most powerful debuffs in the game as a passive. The cost and health is similar.
Doesn't any Terran who is interested in the slightest bit of a balanced and interesting game see that the Marauder is way too powerful in its current form?
This is a ridiculous comparison. So 3 marauders, with micro, after an EMP, and with medivac support will beat an immortal. Why don't we add collossi and psi storm to the equation? Even without their shields, immortals still do fine against marauders, quite honestly. Protoss should be punished by EMP just as Terran should be punished by psi storm or colloxen.
Although I agree that marauders need some sort of change, I'm not sure I've heard a suggestion in this thread I really like yet. I suppose making the slow effect on their attack an upgrade available only after the factory would be ok, but only if reactor and marine buildtimes were brought back to a level that was a bit more sane, and terran metal received some much, much needed love. I think this could help unit diversity quite significantly.
Still, the fact that nearly every protoss unit by their very design hard-counters siege tanks will likely never make terran metal viable in TvP, save maybe the Thor (and I quite doubt that one). The lack of unit diversity isn't wholly the marauder's fault.
I keep seeing a lot of people saying to nerf marauder and buff mech. I think this could be done by simply making the slow an upgrade and making helions do like 14 dmg with no bonus to light until you get the preigniter. The main reason mech fails is because helions are so bad vs armored units and you cant get enough tanks to deal with mass armored because of gas.
-They come out too fast. You can have your first one out well before P has a stalker, which they have to get because if you make a reaper and they have a zealot bad things happen. TvT you can't go straight to tanks even with a bunker because you can have like 8 maras when that tanks pops out. Not a fair fight even with walls/bunkers involved. TvZ isn't so much of a timing issue. Bunkers do fine vs roaches early anyways, and you only need like 1-2 maras to hold off quite a few roach with a wall. I don't think you need them as early as you get them.
-The slow is broken. There is no unit that can be micro'd effectively vs them before colossi, and even then you need range upgrade to really make them useful. 6 maras can kill like 50 roaches if you had the space to maneuver. Maras can run up and snipe tanks and as soon as 1 hit lands the tank is gone. Stalkers can't harass mara forces without taking losses, so their speed is worthless. Zealots just get kited around before charge so they're absolutely worthless too. Only force field on the sentry seems to be a viable counter to mara slow because you might be able to trap a couple.
-They cost way too little. Think about the marauder with NO upgrades and ignoring slow. It's still a unit that does 10+10 damage with 6 range and has decent speed and 125 hp. That, and it's produced from the earliest production structure for terran, so you have access to it automatically every game. I don't see how that unit can only cost 100/25. Now lets factor in the slow, stim, and healing from medivacs. We now have a unit that still costs 100/25, but attacks super fast, moves super fast, gets healed, and can't be retreated from. This sounds like a unit that should cost a lot more than it does.
Any nerf that the mara gets has to take into account these 3 things. Granted, it doesn't have to nerf all 3 things, but it has to balance it so that when all 3 are taken into account the mara remains viable but balanced.
Of course, if we nerf maras, we have to wonder what terran can do vs protoss. Marines and mech play are very viable vs zerg, and maras are only really used to kill roaches or as a tank against banelings, so I highly doubt their role will change in that matchup. Terran vs Terran obviously is balanced by definition, though nerfing the mara will increase the complexity of that matchup.
Obviously the biggest issue for mech right now is immortals vs tanks. With EMP, tanks actually do fairly well vs immortals, and once you get enough completely demolish immortal heavy armies. However, you can get immortals pretty quickly, and produce them ridiculously fast with chrono. There are several solutions that can help terran survive more easily vs immortals early on:
-Decrease tank build time (but this affects TvZ as well, so that's something to take into account).
-Increase immortal build time (I believe this is the best solution, as no 4 food unit should build faster than a stalker. It'd also help quell the stupidity that is the immortal push PvZ)
-Change hardened shields to take more damage (so they become more specialized anti heavy hitter units. Something along the lines of 20 damage. Again, this would help ZvP, though possibly screw it up completely as well.)
That's all I can think up right now. Hopefully this is some good food for thought.
Okay i'm not new to this site, been reading articles and forum post in a long time, but haven't felt like posting anything before, since most of my opinions are shared by other people who already posted them. But this post made me think, that there must be some other way to workout "balance" issues than this way. I know that posts and discussions like this often produce some good arguments, but it usually end up being mostly mindless criticism instead of constructive criticism, of both the game, and the posts. So i got an idea of how to hopefully create a topic that will hopefully be a little more "constructive" (that being said without any hard feeling towards the people who posted in this topic, or the creator). Anyways, my idea was to create a topic, were I start of by coming up with my own "patch notes" for the next patch, that I think would solve the problem with marauders, and only this problem, since people will end up discussing a lot of different thing otherwise . Keep in mind though, that you can change other units than the marauder, as long it is relevant for solving the issue with the marauder. You of course have to follow your "patch notes" up with argumentation.
The whole point of the topic would then be, that you're only allowed to reply in the post, if you are posting some arguments against the last replies patch notes, followed up by your own patch notes.
This of course requires some forum moderator help, but I think that we in the end would end up with "the theoretical perfect patch notes"
I of course can't create this topic, since i just registered, but i hope that somebody else would.
Anyways the changes i would make to fix the non diversity of the Terran army (the marauder spam issue) are: * Decrease Marauder HP from 125 to 115. For making it less of a tanking unit, i.e. more like other infantry units.
* Making the Marauder slow a researchable upgrade at the Tech Lap, for 100/100 and 60 secs. research time. For making the marauder less powerful in the beginning, and thereby preventing the terran from being able to expand way earlier than the other two races, and most importantly making the marauder a support unit that you'll only need when your main army need slowing support, i.e. making the marauder a tactical choice.
* Making the slow a 5 secs. cooldown. Just for the sake of overall balance.
* Change build time of both reactor and Tech Lab to 35 seconds. For the purpos of seeing more marines.
* Increase Siege Tank HP from 150 to 160, and the armor from 1 to 2. * Increase Thor damage from 45 to 50, and the armor from 1 to 2. For making Mech build more viable.
* Decrease Roach armor from 2 to 1, and damage from 16 to 15. * Decrease Immortal damage vs. armored units to +25 instead of +30. For the terran to yet stand a chance after marauder nerf.
So these changes are what i feel would force terran players to diversify their army, and choosing other builds than just the bio, and changing the bio build to be M&M&M instead of just M or M&M, and yet have the terran player stand a chance.
Anyways, hopes that someone like my idea, and creates a topic with the rules described, if not, well no matter, now you then got my opinion on the marauder at least.
On April 04 2010 20:37 DeMusliM wrote: Terran can't viably go Mech either, as much as they want to - Immortals counter that whole building single handedly, and with immortals popping out through chrono boost - terran would need alot more factories to even think about outmassing.
Except Ghost counters Immortals extremely well.
I don't get the people claiming Immortal counters Marauders.
Immortal Health: 250 hp, 100 shields (hardned shield, which is instantly nuked by EMP) Damage: 20+30 Range: 5 Costs: 250+100 Tier: 2
Three Marauders Health: 375hp (which can be healed) Damage: 30+30 damage (with an extremely powerful slow). Do (basically) a massive 45+45 damage when stimmed (which is most of the time). Range: 6 Costs: 300 + 75 Tier: 1
There is no way for one Immortal to beat 3 microed Marauders, especially once they have stim, EMP or medivac support. And this is suppose to be the "counter" unit? The Marauders cost for cost have far more damage (double when stimmed), better range and move faster than the higher tier "counter" unit, Immortals, on top of that they can be healed and have one of the most powerful debuffs in the game as a passive. The cost and health is similar.
Doesn't any Terran who is interested in the slightest bit of a balanced and interesting game see that the Marauder is way too powerful in its current form?
This is a ridiculous comparison. So 3 marauders, with micro, after an EMP, and with medivac support will beat an immortal.
No, 3 Marauders beats 1 Immortal even without medivac, emp or stim (just some micro). However, once you have any of those its not even a close fight anymore. Even with just stim its rediculous, the Marauder then has double the damage of an immortal.
I really don't follow when people say something like "the marauder is a boring unit". What makes it boring? How was the dragoon more interesting? The goliath? The dragoon was used alot in Sc1, the backbone of a protoss army in many matchups, like the marauder now. Would you say the dragoon is a boring unit?
On April 05 2010 01:18 Bigpon86 wrote: I keep seeing a lot of people saying to nerf marauder and buff mech. I think this could be done by simply making the slow an upgrade and making helions do like 14 dmg with no bonus to light until you get the preigniter. The main reason mech fails is because helions are so bad vs armored units and you cant get enough tanks to deal with mass armored because of gas.
I think you got it wrong.
Hellions job is to prevent the fast, light units from getting into range. They don't need to be good versus armored because tanks are already good versus armored.
The problem in mech versus P is that Immortals own every terran mech unit out there. Not only they take little damage but they do an insane amount of damage to armored units. Terran is forced to get ghosts which is a huge investment of gas (considering you are massing other gas heavy units) but most importantly time... time which lets Protoss take more bases.
On April 05 2010 01:18 Bigpon86 wrote: I keep seeing a lot of people saying to nerf marauder and buff mech. I think this could be done by simply making the slow an upgrade and making helions do like 14 dmg with no bonus to light until you get the preigniter. The main reason mech fails is because helions are so bad vs armored units and you cant get enough tanks to deal with mass armored because of gas.
The problem in mech versus P is that Immortals own every terran mech unit out there.
Ghosts?
The problem is right now that the Terran doesn't even have to use things like EMP to win, they can just mass Marauders and a-move.
Honestly after reading half this thread, I think most of the problems that are being talked about on this thread stem from the +armoured of immortals and marauders, and little else.
Due to the +armoured, both marauders and immortals end up countering far higher tech units on all races (ultras, tanks, collosus, etc.) cost efficiently. Since they also counter roaches, that caused blizzard to make roaches retardedly strong to compensate, so that basically if you aren't using a hard counter to them, you'll be run over by them.
They need to drastically nerf +armoured on marauders and immortals and then downgrade the shit out of roach (by at least making them require 2 supply). I think if they did that it would fix a lot of the problems people are having with all of these units, and it would make every matchup more fun!
On April 05 2010 01:18 Bigpon86 wrote: I keep seeing a lot of people saying to nerf marauder and buff mech. I think this could be done by simply making the slow an upgrade and making helions do like 14 dmg with no bonus to light until you get the preigniter. The main reason mech fails is because helions are so bad vs armored units and you cant get enough tanks to deal with mass armored because of gas.
The problem in mech versus P is that Immortals own every terran mech unit out there.
Ghosts?
The problem is right now that the Terran doesn't even have to use things like EMP to win, they can just mass Marauders and a-move.
This is an exaggeration. Unless you are already better than your opponent you can't just a-move marauders.
On April 05 2010 01:18 Bigpon86 wrote: I keep seeing a lot of people saying to nerf marauder and buff mech. I think this could be done by simply making the slow an upgrade and making helions do like 14 dmg with no bonus to light until you get the preigniter. The main reason mech fails is because helions are so bad vs armored units and you cant get enough tanks to deal with mass armored because of gas.
I think you got it wrong.
Hellions job is to prevent the fast, light units from getting into range. They don't need to be good versus armored because tanks are already good versus armored.
The problem in mech versus P is that Immortals own every terran mech unit out there. Not only they take little damage but they do an insane amount of damage to armored units. Terran is forced to get ghosts which is a huge investment of gas (considering you are massing other gas heavy units) but most importantly time... time which lets Protoss take more bases.
My point was that you cant mass mech without building a ton of helions because of gas. And since helions suck so bad vs everything but light its so hard to make a decent army vs armored heavy armies.
On April 04 2010 23:09 Haemonculus wrote: What amazes me is that in BW, going infantry against protoss is weak simply because all protoss tech seems to counter it. Sure M&M will steamroll gateway units, but storm, archons, reavers, etc, all just crush bio. Terran adapted by going heavily mech in this matchup. Why do Terran players somehow feel like they should be able to spam infantry and have it be effective vs high tech protoss?
Psi storm in BW absolutely obliterates infantry. And then we get a psi storm nerf because of that in SC2? Meh, I'm ranting.
Marauders definitely need some sort of nerf, simply because they are more effective than seemingly ever other terran unit. Yes marauders are too strong, but we need to tweak the rest of the terran army as well. No army should be able to or forced to mass one very powerful unit.
Well, something to keep in mind is that in SC1, Tanks sort of destroy goons... In SC2? Blinking stalkers are a complete nightmare for siege tanks.
In SC1, you can spend all your minerals on more factories and vultures, and they are actually sort of useful vs goons with their mines and mass of attacks.
SC2? Sure, they rape zealots really, really hard but blinking stalkers once again rape them - you can't even use your speed advantage.
So, you can go some sort of super gas heavy tank/hellion/ghost/raven mix and turtle until you have enough gas bases to support it... but I think any early push just gets eaten by blink/immortals.
Basically, give me back spider mines and I'll take any nerf to marauders you want.
On April 04 2010 23:09 Haemonculus wrote: What amazes me is that in BW, going infantry against protoss is weak simply because all protoss tech seems to counter it. Sure M&M will steamroll gateway units, but storm, archons, reavers, etc, all just crush bio. Terran adapted by going heavily mech in this matchup. Why do Terran players somehow feel like they should be able to spam infantry and have it be effective vs high tech protoss?
Psi storm in BW absolutely obliterates infantry. And then we get a psi storm nerf because of that in SC2? Meh, I'm ranting.
Marauders definitely need some sort of nerf, simply because they are more effective than seemingly ever other terran unit. Yes marauders are too strong, but we need to tweak the rest of the terran army as well. No army should be able to or forced to mass one very powerful unit.
Well, something to keep in mind is that in SC1, Tanks sort of destroy goons... In SC2? Blinking stalkers are a complete nightmare for siege tanks.
In SC1, you can spend all your minerals on more factories and vultures, and they are actually sort of useful vs goons with their mines and mass of attacks.
SC2? Sure, they rape zealots really, really hard but blinking stalkers once again rape them - you can't even use your speed advantage.
So, you can go some sort of super gas heavy tank/hellion/ghost/raven mix and turtle until you have enough gas bases to support it... but I think any early push just gets eaten by blink/immortals.
Basically, give me back spider mines and I'll take any nerf to marauders you want.
I would much prefer the spider mines really, i feel that PvT is all camping in your base and massing *something* up - because if you poke your head out with a few units in the beginning there's no retreating from marauders, you're guaranteed to be punished by the early interest due to some of your units being picked off because of the slowing effect.
On April 04 2010 23:09 Haemonculus wrote: What amazes me is that in BW, going infantry against protoss is weak simply because all protoss tech seems to counter it. Sure M&M will steamroll gateway units, but storm, archons, reavers, etc, all just crush bio. Terran adapted by going heavily mech in this matchup. Why do Terran players somehow feel like they should be able to spam infantry and have it be effective vs high tech protoss?
Psi storm in BW absolutely obliterates infantry. And then we get a psi storm nerf because of that in SC2? Meh, I'm ranting.
Marauders definitely need some sort of nerf, simply because they are more effective than seemingly ever other terran unit. Yes marauders are too strong, but we need to tweak the rest of the terran army as well. No army should be able to or forced to mass one very powerful unit.
Well, something to keep in mind is that in SC1, Tanks sort of destroy goons... In SC2? Blinking stalkers are a complete nightmare for siege tanks.
In SC1, you can spend all your minerals on more factories and vultures, and they are actually sort of useful vs goons with their mines and mass of attacks.
SC2? Sure, they rape zealots really, really hard but blinking stalkers once again rape them - you can't even use your speed advantage.
So, you can go some sort of super gas heavy tank/hellion/ghost/raven mix and turtle until you have enough gas bases to support it... but I think any early push just gets eaten by blink/immortals.
Basically, give me back spider mines and I'll take any nerf to marauders you want.
yeah, i missed the balance od sc1, but we are in beta stage, maybe thinking in add or remove units its not insane. personally, i think terrans are having bad times and marauders are the only option to survive. I think that marauders, immortals and roaches are the core of the problem. Many oool units are being nearly useless right now.
I think an elegant solution is to switch the roles of the void ray and the banshee, minus the cloaking. The banshee is now relatively weak niche unit specializing in taking out buildings and taking advantage of lack of AA (makes sense with cloak too), dieing quickly to any AA at all (Effective against masses of light units, hardcountered by stalkers, parralelling the void ray being hardcountered by marines), while the voidray can now hold its own as a powerful ATG unit and doesn't die in two shots to marines, and requires a signficant tech switch in order to kill.
The voidray can basically be the same thing except have bonus versus bio, albeit less signficant, and have a lower target switching time. The banshee fires "cluster missles" which are good versus masses of light units, and buildings (Because all the cluster missles will hit it due to sheer size).
The unit combo that should counter marauders in PvT, is Zealot+Sentry. They both have light armor, guardian shield lets zealots take 7 damage to their health per marauder attack, and force field helps you sandwich marauders so they can't run away.
What's missing from the equation, IMO, is the suggestion I made in this thread: make the marauders' attacks root them in place for the duration of their attack cooldown. If you give marauders a move command after an attack, this would make them start moving only when their next attack is ready- they'd have to sacrifice damage in exchange for mobility. Add zealot charge and protoss might be able to tackle mass marauders (against bigger numbers, add psi storm / colossi).
I dont have beta but ive been watching a lot of games and have played several games with my friends account.
I was and am still amazed at how quickly marauders roll zealots, stalkers and sentries.
I think there are a number of problems which i will give my opinions on how to fix. Some of them will be extreme, but i hope at least that it will get people thinking:
1) Marauder needs to be nerfed somehow.
Huxil summarized some of what i was thinking:
* Decrease Marauder HP from 125 to 115. (I would say 100) For making it less of a tanking unit, i.e. more like other infantry units.
* Making the Marauder slow a researchable upgrade at the Tech Lap, for 100/100 and 60 secs. research time. For making the marauder less powerful in the beginning, and thereby preventing the terran from being able to expand way earlier than the other two races, and most importantly making the marauder a support unit that you'll only need when your main army need slowing support, i.e. making the marauder a tactical choice.
* Change build time of both reactor and Tech Lab to 35 seconds. For the purpos of seeing more marines.
To this i would add:
>the idea of making their attack slightly weaker, but giving them an AoE ability to slow (upgraded). So while they would still hit only one unit, they would slow every unit around that unit for a brief while. They could fiddle with the numbers, maybe making it only a 30% slow (even the odds against zergs on creep). It should be on a cooldown.
>Remove slow entirely
>Reduce range and/or speed and/or firing rate
>Remove stim
Then, if you nerf marauder, you need to compensate in other areas for terran.
I would suggest this:
>Making the tank a little buffer in terms of HP and armor
>If its non-siege range isnt 7 (i think it is 7) make it 7, make it have a fairly quick attack rate with a flat 10-12 damage.
Why? Because then it would allow the tank to at least take on the immortal. My reasoning is that since the tank has two modes, they can use this fact to not only make tank mode more useful, but also minimize the hardcounter aspect of the immortal. I propose that the tank would still lose in terms of cost, but would at least be able to stand its ground. With the increased cost and pop, the tank couldnt be massed, but it would give terrans a justification for building them. It would also add interesting micro choices (do i leave tanks in siege mode to kill zeals or do i make some of them tanks to bring down imm shields faster?)
>They could even give them extra hp or armor in tank mode, but i think this would overlap with the thor a bit
Immortals deserve a nerf somehow, but i dont really know exactly what. Im almost of the opinion that they should have energy for the hardened shields...
>If they decided to do that, they would have to change ghost EMP.
In my opinion, they could make it eliminate all shields, but only 100 energy (instead of 100 shields, all energy) so it wouldnt be so rapistly strong against other casters. EMP basically already eliminates all shields, and losing all caster energy instantly in AoE is rather uncalled for. It also makes the unique expensive and slow mothership completely useless in TvP.
I dont really know what to do with roaches. I hate those sons of bitches worse than anything, even marauders (which actually look kind of fun to use). Immortals seem delicate to change, so idk exactly what to do. I would hope to see stalkers buffed in some way, and to see reapers used more mid-game
Fun Change for no reason: :D
Scrap hellions, replace with something else,
Give reapers flamethrowers (fuck yea!) at 4 range with a quick animation (like they have now). Make them rape light units :D
Make D8s a bit like spider mines:
>10hp, not cloaked, but also lowest targetting priority >3 per reaper (free) >once you put all 3 down, the icon changes into a "detonate" button. After 2 seconds it will flash red a few times, then explode for small/medium AoE damage, 20+40 vs armored (needs balance, obviously)
If the reaper responsible for the mines dies, they become useless and disappear after a few seconds.
What's missing from the equation, IMO, is the suggestion I made in this thread: make the marauders' attacks root them in place for the duration of their attack cooldown. If you give marauders a move command after an attack, this would make them start moving only when their next attack is ready- they'd have to sacrifice damage in exchange for mobility. Add zealot charge and protoss might be able to tackle mass marauders (against bigger numbers, add psi storm / colossi).
hate that in evry way.
we need more stuff that can be microed nicely and not make micro even less appealing/possible.
there is enough stupid "aclick and watch how the battle goes" anyways in sc2. this would only make it worse.
not to mention HEAVILY nerf T vs zerg esp early game.
On April 05 2010 02:01 Half wrote: I think an elegant solution is to switch the roles of the void ray and the banshee, minus the cloaking. The banshee is now relatively weak niche unit specializing in taking out buildings and taking advantage of lack of AA (makes sense with cloak too), dieing quickly to any AA at all (Effective against masses of light units, hardcountered by stalkers, parralelling the void ray being hardcountered by marines), while the voidray can now hold its own as a powerful ATG unit and doesn't die in two shots to marines, and requires a signficant tech switch in order to kill.
The voidray can basically be the same thing except have bonus versus bio, albeit less signficant, and have a lower target switching time. The banshee fires "cluster missles" which are good versus masses of light units, and buildings (Because all the cluster missles will hit it due to sheer size).
Marauders don't attack air.
so you want to take the (imo) 2nd most used T unit away to make the most used unit less usedand for exchange you give a unit that sucks against all unarmored (T1) units? sounds really stupid and makes no sense.
3. Give Reapers a special ability: altered Spider Mines (grenades?) that they throw. These do extra damage versus armored and have a slowing effect (different from D-8 charges in that you can't target buildings with them).
Increase Marauder base damage (12 - 14 would be a good range), reduce rate of fire. This will specifically weaken them against Immortals.
Lower Marauder range, add range upgrade. This will make stalkers stronger in early game.
Reduce Marauder and Roach HP by 10-20, reduce Immortal bonus damage by 5-10.
Reactor build time back to normal. With the stronger stalker and the other terran earlygame nerfs this shouldn't be an issue.
Don't mess with Roach damage or armor. If roaches with +1 can't 2 shot zerglings then zvz will be all about 6 pool and 14 hatch 13 pool into mass lings. Less armor means a huge damage buff for lings. A HP nerf on roaches will still make lings stronger against roaches without dooming zvz by default. Ya roach v roach isn't the most exciting gameplan for most people, but a HP nerf on roaches has the potential to make both roach and ling openings viable. An attack ratio nerf for roaches also is viable but they already attack so slowly...
Don't buff stalkers, nerf other units. Stalkers probably are ok right now. In certain pvz builds they are extremely hard to deal with. Earlier blink together with hallucinated air units would be insane with the current stalkers.
Metal would be viable if tanks dealt more damage and had more hp, and hellions did anything against usual toss unit composition. Some sort of Hellion/Tank/Ghost composition.
Just curious what the OP's point of this thread is. I see that you are saying that terrans are forced into rauders and this leads to a very unexciting game. If this is the case then I think 90% of the replies are off base with the, 'slow effect is OP' and 'take away stim' type of comments. I play terran in 1v1 plat div 19 and TvP is my hardest MU, partially due to stalker/colli, and I find most responses to be a lot of bluu bluu bluu QQ theorycraft. Anyway, I partially agree with OP that rauders are snoozefest but I would like to address most of the replies in saying, rauders havn't been nerfed in the past 4 patches so they might not be as IMBA as ya'll cry about.
On April 05 2010 02:01 Half wrote: I think an elegant solution is to switch the roles of the void ray and the banshee, minus the cloaking. The banshee is now relatively weak niche unit specializing in taking out buildings and taking advantage of lack of AA (makes sense with cloak too), dieing quickly to any AA at all (Effective against masses of light units, hardcountered by stalkers, parralelling the void ray being hardcountered by marines), while the voidray can now hold its own as a powerful ATG unit and doesn't die in two shots to marines, and requires a signficant tech switch in order to kill.
The voidray can basically be the same thing except be less strong versus armored and less suck versus bio, and have a lower target switching time. The banshee fires "cluster missles" which are good versus masses of light units, and buildings (Because all the cluster missles will hit it due to sheer size).
Marauders don't attack air.
so you want to take the (imo) 2nd most used T unit away to make the most used unit less usedand for exchange you give a unit that sucks against all unarmored (T1) units? sounds really stupid and makes no sense.
Yes. How is it stupid? Terran have never really been about air superiority anyway. SC1 had protoss and zerglings with strong air, mutas and corsairs, with terran the worst, wraiths having a very niche role in special openings to hunt overlords.
It would hugely discourage massing only marauder if the voidray got the relative strength of a banshee, able to hold its own against marines. Every other unit except the maraunder (and banshee I guess) would see more use.
On April 05 2010 01:46 onmach wrote: Honestly after reading half this thread, I think most of the problems that are being talked about on this thread stem from the +armoured of immortals and marauders, and little else.
Due to the +armoured, both marauders and immortals end up countering far higher tech units on all races (ultras, tanks, collosus, etc.) cost efficiently. Since they also counter roaches, that caused blizzard to make roaches retardedly strong to compensate, so that basically if you aren't using a hard counter to them, you'll be run over by them.
They need to drastically nerf +armoured on marauders and immortals and then downgrade the shit out of roach (by at least making them require 2 supply). I think if they did that it would fix a lot of the problems people are having with all of these units, and it would make every matchup more fun!
this is the truth.
immortals, marauders and roaches are 'broken' at the moment.
totally nerf the '+damage vs armor' on both immortal and marauder - they still have tasty damage but they're no longer hard counters. then to fix the roach, inc supply to 2.
hard counters are such a load of rubbish and these 3 units are at the centre of it.
Well this are my solutions for the the 3 most generic units in the game ; (marauder , immortal, roach)
They should change the marauders attack from 10+10vs armored, to 7+14 vs armored , so they are not the answer to all ground forces , still great vs armored units , but much more easily countered.
And they should also change the immortals atack from 20+30vs armored, to 15+ 30 vs armored, a small nerf, but it would be also much much more easy to counter them.
And i also think that roaches atack that is a plain 15 should be changed to be part bonus , so they have a unit type that counters them. ( zerg alredy have to much units with a generic atack ( no bonus atack) zergling, roach, hydra, ultralisk , mutalisk, corupter,broodlord , none of these units have a atack with bonus to something :o !)- no wonder the zerg feel so limited.)
Marauders are fine. They don't do much to non-armored units, for their cost, and are absolutely butt raped by immortals. How they do against gateway units is not relevant because the counter to them is in the robotics, and with chrono you can build 2 immortals in the time 1 barracks makes 1 marauder.
Also once you have charge I can't outmicro shit with marauders And you greatly overhype medivacs - they run out of energy ridiculously fast, and recharge painfully slowly.
On April 05 2010 02:04 Zato-1 wrote: The unit combo that should counter marauders in PvT, is Zealot+Sentry. They both have light armor, guardian shield lets zealots take 7 damage to their health per marauder attack, and force field helps you sandwich marauders so they can't run away.
What's missing from the equation, IMO, is the suggestion I made in this thread: make the marauders' attacks root them in place for the duration of their attack cooldown. If you give marauders a move command after an attack, this would make them start moving only when their next attack is ready- they'd have to sacrifice damage in exchange for mobility. Add zealot charge and protoss might be able to tackle mass marauders (against bigger numbers, add psi storm / colossi).
I don't like that, they might as well just remove the marauder from the game then because it'd be boring to use
Zealot/Sentry/Stalker already does a number on marauders early game anyway >_<
What if they made stalkers light armored? Would that fix it? Hellions then do bonus damage to zealots + stalkers, forcing people away from marauder compositions.
On April 05 2010 02:38 green.at wrote: roaches have a bonus vs light units
since when?
they don't? haha that would be nice. shame on me and sorry for the confusion
@marauders: i play a opening with gateway then forge and if i see mass marauders i place 1-2 cannons at my choke. i then go for a voidray and force turrets. my ground units are stalkers/immortals and a few sentries.
I tried this only once so far so i cant rly tell if this works well or not. But this one game i ended up beeing up 1 base and just went for 4 carriers
Give marauders 3 or 3.5 or 4 range instead of 6. They can keep the slow, but the reduced range would cut down their power when used en masse, especially against infantry. I haven't played against tanks very much, but they are pretty devastating against zerg, so I'm just putting that out there in case people decide to argue, "if marines and marauders both have less range than hydras we will get raped by fungal growth and hydra armies!!" I think making the range shorter would give the terran army more diversity (although, I'll concede that zerg also suffers from much of the same stigma; but that's another topic).
I'm only high gold Terran but all my games are vs plats and I've beaten many top 10 plats. Here is my perfect patch though:
Terran
Marauder change 1: Build Time increased from 30 to 40 seconds: I find it ridiculous you can almost match marines 1 for 1 in build time. Before you could make a reactor but now reactors take twice as long as a tech labs. 2 Marines barely beat 1 marauder and it gets worse when you get higher numbers and marauders shoot/run.
Marauder change 2: No stimpack. Should be removed completely from marauders.
Justification: Marauders are definitely too good. Even vs Terrans because you can't make enough marine's to stop them.
Reaper change 1: Jet packs is a cheap upgrade say 50 mineral 25 gas taking x seconds to upgrade.
Reaper change 2 (only if change 1 is done): buff reapers, cost decrease and hp increase.
Justification: Reapers are only good extreme early game and suck any other time. Making jet packs an upgrade gives people time to prepare against cheesy 1 reaper rushes and justifies them getting rightful buffs to make them a more useful unit at any other point in the game.
Raven change 1: gas cost reduced to 150 gas.
Justification: Ravens cost too much gas compared to observer/overseer.
Protoss:
Immortal change 1: Hardened shields changed so that you take the first 10 damage. Then it blocks the next 10-20. The rest goes through.
Justification: They hard counter tanks too much. If hardened shields only blocked 10-20 damage it would still block most bonus damage from +armored units.
Zerg:
Roach change 1: Food count up to 2.
Justification: Kinda obvious but they are too good because they only take 1 pop space.
Corrupter change 1: bonus damage changed from +10 to massive to +10 to armored.
Justification: this would make them about the same damage as vikings. All massive are armored anyways (anything a corrupter can hit at least). Might even up base damage and reduce bonus damage a little.
On April 05 2010 02:43 zerglingsfolife wrote: What if they made stalkers light armored? Would that fix it? Hellions then do bonus damage to zealots + stalkers, forcing people away from marauder compositions.
it's a vicious circle.
each race is too reliant on roach/immortal/marauder throughout the entire game.
this is probably the reason why noone even bothers making tier3 units, because they're terrible against these tier1.5 slush units.
On April 05 2010 01:45 floor exercise wrote: Ghosts are not factory units
Yeah, for Terran to actually build both Barracks and Factories may be too much to handle. Only one building and one unit should do the trick.
Have you ever seen a Protoss who has not built both a Gateway and a robo? You think it should be standard for a race to just have to built one building, rally them into the opponents base and then mass one single unit? There is even an entire thread dedicated to that successful strategy with hundreds of comments here on TL. Don't even need to a-move or micro, just rally and you're good to go.
Someone may even be able to convince themselves of how skilled they are while doing this.
Seriously though, there is obviously something that has to be done about the Marauder. It doesn't even have a counter, cost for cost it even beats the Immortal (which is suppose to be THE counter unit against it).
Personally I think the Roach, Stalker and Marauder are way too similar, with just gimmicks separating them apart. 5 years in development I would have hoped Blizzard could come up with a greater diversity than this.
On April 05 2010 02:43 zerglingsfolife wrote: What if they made stalkers light armored? Would that fix it? Hellions then do bonus damage to zealots + stalkers, forcing people away from marauder compositions.
it's a vicious circle.
each race is too reliant on roach/immortal/marauder throughout the entire game.
this is probably the reason why noone even bothers making tier3 units, because they're terrible against these tier1.5 slush units.
On April 05 2010 02:53 pieisamazing wrote: Give marauders 3 or 3.5 or 4 range instead of 6. They can keep the slow, but the reduced range would cut down their power when used en masse, especially against infantry. I haven't played against tanks very much, but they are pretty devastating against zerg, so I'm just putting that out there in case people decide to argue, "if marines and marauders both have less range than hydras we will get raped by fungal growth and hydra armies!!" I think making the range shorter would give the terran army more diversity (although, I'll concede that zerg also suffers from much of the same stigma; but that's another topic).
Tanks suck ass against Zerg. Try using Mech against a competent Zerg, and watch him take half the map and come busting you down with 70 Roaches.
On April 05 2010 02:43 zerglingsfolife wrote: What if they made stalkers light armored? Would that fix it? Hellions then do bonus damage to zealots + stalkers, forcing people away from marauder compositions.
it's a vicious circle.
each race is too reliant on roach/immortal/marauder throughout the entire game.
this is probably the reason why noone even bothers making tier3 units, because they're terrible against these tier1.5 slush units.
Protoss are scarcely reliant on Immortals at the moment lol. Their use is marginalized as the game progresses in favor of Colossus typically. That is, unless the terran is pure mech or the Zerg pure roach.
2 supply cost on roaches is nonsense. Roaches have insanely low attack speed and move fairly slow. Just because they have high damage and HP it doesn't mean they compare to other 2 supply units. 1.5 supply would be ok, but 2 is too much. But 1.5 isn't practical. Zerg also needs to have large unit counts or else it won't feel like zerg anymore. So instead of increasing roach cost, decrease roach HP.
On April 05 2010 02:53 pieisamazing wrote: Give marauders 3 or 3.5 or 4 range instead of 6. They can keep the slow, but the reduced range would cut down their power when used en masse, especially against infantry. I haven't played against tanks very much, but they are pretty devastating against zerg, so I'm just putting that out there in case people decide to argue, "if marines and marauders both have less range than hydras we will get raped by fungal growth and hydra armies!!" I think making the range shorter would give the terran army more diversity (although, I'll concede that zerg also suffers from much of the same stigma; but that's another topic).
Tanks suck ass against Zerg. Try using Mech against a competent Zerg, and watch him take half the map and come busting you down with 70 Roaches.
Yeah, you can't a-move your tanks into their army. Use some positioning.
On April 05 2010 02:53 pieisamazing wrote: Give marauders 3 or 3.5 or 4 range instead of 6. They can keep the slow, but the reduced range would cut down their power when used en masse, especially against infantry. I haven't played against tanks very much, but they are pretty devastating against zerg, so I'm just putting that out there in case people decide to argue, "if marines and marauders both have less range than hydras we will get raped by fungal growth and hydra armies!!" I think making the range shorter would give the terran army more diversity (although, I'll concede that zerg also suffers from much of the same stigma; but that's another topic).
Tanks suck ass against Zerg. Try using Mech against a competent Zerg, and watch him take half the map and come busting you down with 70 Roaches.
Yeah, you can't a-move your tanks into their army. Use some positioning.
What the fuck kind of statement is that? Do you just assume everyone you are talking to is a copper/E- player? How about you play Terran and play the top players and show me how its done. Until then, stop theorycrafting.
If you nerf Marauders and don't buff Tanks in response, Roaches will be way too powerful against Terran. Also, you can't move out as Terran until you get Ravens, because of Roach burrow. So if you play Mech you are stuck inside your base and have to rely on Hellion for harass, which, on many maps sucks ass because 2-3 roaches can block ramps.
Just add a 10 second cooldown to the slow. Blink isn't an initial skill, neither is Charge or Storm. Pretty much every spell any Protoss unit may have (aside from Sentries - THANK GOD) has to be researched. What do Terrans have to research exactly ? Slow is given, so is Snipe, EMP, Medivacs' healing ability, the only thing I can think of that needs researching is Cloak..
...
Although you said spell, slow is just another ability, let me list "free" protoss abilities for you.
Protoss abilities that do not need research: Immortal - hardened shield Dark templar - permanent cloak + archon warp Sentry - force field + guardian shield Warp Prism - phasing mode Colossus - cliff walk Phoenic - graviton beam High templar - feedback + archon warp Void Ray - prismatic beams Mothership - cloaking field + vortex + mass recall Observer - permanent cloak + detector
But those are hardly worth mentioning are they? I personally think Blizzard went a bit too far with abilities and will pay the price during balancing.
With the marauder nerf that just has to come some day, terran will probably have to get other boosts to stand half a chance versus protoss (as mentioned by better posters/players than me :p).
And why do people that don't have have a key post balance proposals (or in this forum at all)? Oh well.
On April 05 2010 02:01 Half wrote: I think an elegant solution is to switch the roles of the void ray and the banshee, minus the cloaking. The banshee is now relatively weak niche unit specializing in taking out buildings and taking advantage of lack of AA (makes sense with cloak too), dieing quickly to any AA at all (Effective against masses of light units, hardcountered by stalkers, parralelling the void ray being hardcountered by marines), while the voidray can now hold its own as a powerful ATG unit and doesn't die in two shots to marines, and requires a signficant tech switch in order to kill.
The voidray can basically be the same thing except be less strong versus armored and less suck versus bio, and have a lower target switching time. The banshee fires "cluster missles" which are good versus masses of light units, and buildings (Because all the cluster missles will hit it due to sheer size).
Marauders don't attack air.
so you want to take the (imo) 2nd most used T unit away to make the most used unit less usedand for exchange you give a unit that sucks against all unarmored (T1) units? sounds really stupid and makes no sense.
Yes. How is it stupid? Terran have never really been about air superiority anyway. SC1 had protoss and zerglings with strong air, mutas and corsairs, with terran the worst, wraiths having a very niche role in special openings to hunt overlords.
It would hugely discourage massing only marauder if the voidray got the relative strength of a banshee, able to hold its own against marines. Every other unit except the maraunder (and banshee I guess) would see more use.
so your argument is "Terran sucked with airunits in sc1 so they need to suck with airunits in sc2" do i understand it right?
no you wont see every other units used more, because this 2 units are terran key units. the banshees is a superior (the only one?) harassment tool and can be mixed into the main army in small numbers and the marauder is the main part of the terran army (like hydras/goons/marines in sc1 for example). terran has enough useless units (hellion/reaper after 2min mark/thor) and there is no need to get one more (void ray). as a protoss i know how useless the void ray is. yes its a good idea to get a banshee and give away a void ray, but it wouldnt balance anything. it would just make terrans switch to Z or P.
in TvP lategame you see Marines/Marauders/Medivacs/Ghosts/Vikings/Ravens/Banshees in TvZ lategame you see Marines/Marauders/Medivacs/Thors(?)/Vikings/Ravens/Banshees/hellions(?)
so you see enough units, its just that marauders are most used because they are the strongest GtG unit that T has + cost effective is. with taking away the banshee you would just see more marauders + more vikings and a terran with much less openings.
On April 05 2010 02:01 Half wrote: I think an elegant solution is to switch the roles of the void ray and the banshee, minus the cloaking. The banshee is now relatively weak niche unit specializing in taking out buildings and taking advantage of lack of AA (makes sense with cloak too), dieing quickly to any AA at all (Effective against masses of light units, hardcountered by stalkers, parralelling the void ray being hardcountered by marines), while the voidray can now hold its own as a powerful ATG unit and doesn't die in two shots to marines, and requires a signficant tech switch in order to kill.
The voidray can basically be the same thing except be less strong versus armored and less suck versus bio, and have a lower target switching time. The banshee fires "cluster missles" which are good versus masses of light units, and buildings (Because all the cluster missles will hit it due to sheer size).
Marauders don't attack air.
so you want to take the (imo) 2nd most used T unit away to make the most used unit less usedand for exchange you give a unit that sucks against all unarmored (T1) units? sounds really stupid and makes no sense.
Yes. How is it stupid? Terran have never really been about air superiority anyway. SC1 had protoss and zerglings with strong air, mutas and corsairs, with terran the worst, wraiths having a very niche role in special openings to hunt overlords.
It would hugely discourage massing only marauder if the voidray got the relative strength of a banshee, able to hold its own against marines. Every other unit except the maraunder (and banshee I guess) would see more use.
so your argument is "Terran sucked with airunits in sc1 so they need to suck with airunits in sc2" do i understand it right?
no you wont see every other units used more, because this 2 units are terran key units. the banshees is a superior (the only one?) harassment tool and can be mixed into the main army in small numbers and the marauder is the main part of the terran army (like hydras/goons/marines in sc1 for example). terran has enough useless units (hellion/reaper after 2min mark/thor) and there is no need to get one more (void ray). as a protoss i know how useless the void ray is. yes its a good idea to get a banshee and give away a void ray, but it wouldnt balance anything. it would just make terrans switch to Z or P.
in TvP lategame you see Marines/Marauders/Medivacs/Ghosts/Vikings/Ravens/Banshees in TvZ lategame you see Marines/Marauders/Medivacs/Thors(?)/Vikings/Ravens/Banshees/hellions(?)
so you see enough units, its just that marauders are most used because they are the strongest GtG unit that T has + cost effective is. with taking away the banshee you would just see more marauders + more vikings and a terran with much less openings.
What's missing from the equation, IMO, is the suggestion I made in this thread: make the marauders' attacks root them in place for the duration of their attack cooldown. If you give marauders a move command after an attack, this would make them start moving only when their next attack is ready- they'd have to sacrifice damage in exchange for mobility. Add zealot charge and protoss might be able to tackle mass marauders (against bigger numbers, add psi storm / colossi).
hate that in evry way.
we need more stuff that can be microed nicely and not make micro even less appealing/possible.
there is enough stupid "aclick and watch how the battle goes" anyways in sc2. this would only make it worse.
not to mention HEAVILY nerf T vs zerg esp early game.
Fine, so buff something else in the Terran arsenal. They're too marauder-heavy atm, so nerfing marauders and buffing something else sounds logical, no?
since patch i thought it would make sense to build 1-2 againts mutas, thats why i put the question mark behind it + the hellion. i thought they are used in specifically cases in small numbers.
It is important for the units to remain unique and not be homogenized. It seems to be the consensus that Marauders, Roaches, and Immortals are too strong and I would agree with that. However, removing their unique abilities is not the answer. Don't let all three of these units become generic ranged RTS units. I don't know the appropriate way to reduce the strength of Marauder and Immortal but here is what I think for Roaches: Double the supply cost to 2. Zerg 200/200 is too strong. Reduce their HP and possibly armor but increase their regeneration rate. Remember in the battle report where these were first introduced they could barely be killed they would regen so fast? Obviously we don't want to take it that far but this unit is too generic atm. Try to get the overall survivability about where it is now but more oriented towards regeneration than starting hit points. Ideally this would make them weaker against siege tanks and about the same strength against infantry. They would do better against Marauder kiting as well with this change.
Also as a side note burrow-move should be moved to tier 3 or should have an animation cast-time like lurker burrow.
On April 05 2010 03:21 MeProU_Kor wrote: since patch i thought it would make sense to build 1-2 againts mutas, thats why i put the question mark behind it + the hellion. i thought they are used in specifically cases in small numbers.
I think u dont get the point what most people are trying to say. As Morrow said its a winnable strategy to build 9 rax and pump pure Maradeurs. The idea of having one unit which can alone win the game in pro level is ridiculous by itself. It's not how rts (starcraft if u wanna) should be played.
And it doesn't matter if some terran builds other units. In fact that means terrans are not so hopeless without maradeurs.
What's missing from the equation, IMO, is the suggestion I made in this thread: make the marauders' attacks root them in place for the duration of their attack cooldown. If you give marauders a move command after an attack, this would make them start moving only when their next attack is ready- they'd have to sacrifice damage in exchange for mobility. Add zealot charge and protoss might be able to tackle mass marauders (against bigger numbers, add psi storm / colossi).
hate that in evry way.
we need more stuff that can be microed nicely and not make micro even less appealing/possible.
there is enough stupid "aclick and watch how the battle goes" anyways in sc2. this would only make it worse.
not to mention HEAVILY nerf T vs zerg esp early game.
Fine, so buff something else in the Terran arsenal. They're too marauder-heavy atm, so nerfing marauders and buffing something else sounds logical, no?
but nerfing by making em boring to play and UNpossible to micro is the worst way.
also i still dont think you can change anything about the marauder without overhauling blizzards whole concept. i agree that it has to be done kind of but on a larger picture then just "lets nerf marauder/roach hp and immortal dmg and we are fine!".
first step would be to totally overhaul Z giving them more options and units while nerfing/changing/deleting the roach. after that we can change marauders/immortals also.
The best thing to do for marauders is make the things that counter them acc counter them make zealots and Zerglings immune to slow and its fixed. Effects early game like it should where the marauders are op cause they have no counters. But yet does not effect late game like it shouldn't cause it evens out in late game. Zealot charge speedlings anyways.
Change Range, dmg, cost, take away stim or make slow research would all effect them in late game or not fix the problem. None are really a good idea.
Quick and simple make the units that counter them counter them.
Also could toss 5 sec onto build time and remove the reacter nerf from 50 back down to 25. But if they don't remove or reduce the reactor nerf need to keep them at 30
Oh also stalkers are fine VS marauders. Marauders are the counter to stalkers so ya.
On April 05 2010 02:37 Louder wrote: Also once you have charge I can't outmicro shit with marauders And you greatly overhype medivacs - they run out of energy ridiculously fast, and recharge painfully slowly.
Erm. I can outmicro zealots with charge using stimmed marauders just fine, and I'm not a very good terran user myself. Maybe you're doing something wrong?
On April 05 2010 02:37 Louder wrote: Also once you have charge I can't outmicro shit with marauders And you greatly overhype medivacs - they run out of energy ridiculously fast, and recharge painfully slowly.
Erm. I can outmicro zealots with charge using stimmed marauders just fine, and I'm not a very good terran user myself. Maybe you're doing something wrong?
When ever you run into somone with good micro that Focus fires the medvacs its killer : / fucking big floating targe : (
On April 05 2010 02:26 bt-scubasteve wrote: Just curious what the OP's point of this thread is. I see that you are saying that terrans are forced into rauders and this leads to a very unexciting game. If this is the case then I think 90% of the replies are off base with the, 'slow effect is OP' and 'take away stim' type of comments.
This is exactly correct. What a painful thread this was to read, and all because most of the posts only address this arbitrary "how Marauders need to be nerfed" idea. If Protoss had viable air vs ground, all we'd be talking about is how utterly impossible to play TvP is. As it is, the 1base Immortal timing push is impossible to stop without at least two well placed EMP shots and a sizable bio force. It's not as if Marauders themselves completely overpower the entire matchup. The issue is that other than Marauders and Ghosts, Terran units are largely ineffective in TvP.
The only good idea I'm seeing here is that the problem is simply +armored units. They are indeed too strong all around, and it's not because these units counter higher tech units (if Marauders couldn't kill Colossi as quickly as they do when they get in range...). It's because the vast majority of these units are strong armored units themselves, and can take quite a beating from light units. To this point, they hold their own against light units, while countering other armored units. This presents a situation where you're basically forced to make them to have any chance at all.
To add to this issue, +armored units - Immortals and Marauders especially - kill buildings way too fast. Static defense vs protoss especially is a joke.
On April 05 2010 02:53 pieisamazing wrote: Give marauders 3 or 3.5 or 4 range instead of 6. They can keep the slow, but the reduced range would cut down their power when used en masse, especially against infantry. I haven't played against tanks very much, but they are pretty devastating against zerg, so I'm just putting that out there in case people decide to argue, "if marines and marauders both have less range than hydras we will get raped by fungal growth and hydra armies!!" I think making the range shorter would give the terran army more diversity (although, I'll concede that zerg also suffers from much of the same stigma; but that's another topic).
Tanks suck ass against Zerg. Try using Mech against a competent Zerg, and watch him take half the map and come busting you down with 70 Roaches.
Yeah, you can't a-move your tanks into their army. Use some positioning.
What the fuck kind of statement is that? Do you just assume everyone you are talking to is a copper/E- player? How about you play Terran and play the top players and show me how its done. Until then, stop theorycrafting.
If you nerf Marauders and don't buff Tanks in response, Roaches will be way too powerful against Terran. Also, you can't move out as Terran until you get Ravens, because of Roach burrow. So if you play Mech you are stuck inside your base and have to rely on Hellion for harass, which, on many maps sucks ass because 2-3 roaches can block ramps.
Calm down, nerd. It was a suggestion, and you decided to be a condescending prick from the get-go. From your statements, you actually DO seem like a copper/E- player. Or twelve years old. Or both.
Try some constructive criticism or some nice discussion, if you're not incapable of that as your responses suggest.
And why do people that don't have have a key post balance proposals (or in this forum at all)? Oh well.
Must be said, only problem I have with TL.net sc2 forum is I really have to only read 300+ post people. Too much "X unit is imba, this is what I think blizzard should do to change it". How about, "x unit kills me, here is a replay, please give me suggestions on how to handle this." Then later on after many replays have been posted and there is sufficient empirical evidence to support X unit being IMBA, then such claims can be made. Let's stick to the OP, terran is forced into rauders making them boring (like roaches).
I was always mad at how the lore states tanks "got more armor" and have ways to "deal with units inside its siege range" which would "justify the extra cost", except they have the same HP/Armor and they still have nothing to deal with things inside its siege range. And now they cost 3 supply and 100 more resources. Seriously, they need to buff mech so much right now, with tanks costing so much more than in SC1 and hellions basically being useless against anything other than workers and zerglings. Instead of nerfing marauders, they should consider buffing other aspects of terran so that other strategies are viable.
On April 05 2010 03:21 MeProU_Kor wrote: since patch i thought it would make sense to build 1-2 againts mutas, thats why i put the question mark behind it + the hellion. i thought they are used in specifically cases in small numbers.
I think u dont get the point what most people are trying to say. As Morrow said its a winnable strategy to build 9 rax and pump pure Maradeurs. The idea of having one unit which can alone win the game in pro level is ridiculous by itself. It's not how rts (starcraft if u wanna) should be played.
And it doesn't matter if some terran builds other units. In fact that means terrans are not so hopeless without maradeurs.
i get the point, but its just wrong. if it would be so easy to win with that single unit why has morrow such a bad record for example? why did goody managed to win 3:0 5mins ago in the zotac finals and how do marauders win agains hydra/linge or any AtG unit.
believe it or not, marauders need support like every other unit too...
New poster, long time reader. For all these people suggesting that terran mech needs a buff, I can understand the sentiment a bit against toss where the armies are both so mobile but have you seen what mech does to a zerg ground army? its disturbing how quickly hydra/roach/ling evaporates to hellions/tanks. Just my 2 cents.
I don't think you understand chrono boost correctly. Stalker is 42 without chrono, 30 with. Immortal is 40 without, 28 with. It's not 50% reduced build time, it's 50% increased building speed, AKA 25% reduced build time.
I even tested this in a custom game. The build time for stalkers was 42 seconds and 30 with chrono (no idea why there's the 2 second discrepancy). The build time for immortals was 40 seconds and 28 with chrono.
Please fix this in the OP, you're making it seem like protoss could get out a stalker in a reasonable about of time in comparison to the marauder.
On April 05 2010 04:14 -orb- wrote: I don't think you understand chrono boost correctly. Stalker is 42 without chrono, 30 with. Immortal is 40 without, 28 with. It's not 50% reduced build time, it's 50% increased building speed, AKA 25% reduced build time.
I even tested this in a custom game. The build time for stalkers was 42 seconds and 30 with chrono (no idea why there's the 2 second discrepancy). The build time for immortals was 40 seconds and 28 with chrono.
Please fix this in the OP, you're making it seem like protoss could get out a stalker in a reasonable about of time in comparison to the marauder.
50% faster means 33.(3)% less buildtime, not 25%. Having units build 100% faster results in 50% buildtime, but simply halving the speed % will not give you the right result in any other case, the most obvious example would be that 200% faster build speed will not result in 100% lower buildtime, i.e. no buildtime at all.
42 / 1.5 = 28 40 / 1.5 = 26.(6)
Stalker cooldown is 32 seconds or 32 / 1.5 = 21.(3) with chrono boost, so the difference after toss gets warpgates is pretty small.
Additionally, Marauder build time is 30 seconds, not 33.
On April 05 2010 02:37 Louder wrote: Marauders are fine. They don't do much to non-armored units, for their cost, and are absolutely butt raped by immortals. How they do against gateway units is not relevant because the counter to them is in the robotics, and with chrono you can build 2 immortals in the time 1 barracks makes 1 marauder.
Also once you have charge I can't outmicro shit with marauders And you greatly overhype medivacs - they run out of energy ridiculously fast, and recharge painfully slowly.
You honestly dont see the problem with marauders countering every single toss unit?? Have you ever been on the opposing end of a tvp?
On April 05 2010 04:14 -orb- wrote: I don't think you understand chrono boost correctly. Stalker is 42 without chrono, 30 with. Immortal is 40 without, 28 with. It's not 50% reduced build time, it's 50% increased building speed, AKA 25% reduced build time.
I even tested this in a custom game. The build time for stalkers was 42 seconds and 30 with chrono (no idea why there's the 2 second discrepancy). The build time for immortals was 40 seconds and 28 with chrono.
Please fix this in the OP, you're making it seem like protoss could get out a stalker in a reasonable about of time in comparison to the marauder.
By my calculations a unit that takes 42 seconds to build, at 1.5x build speed would take 28 seconds and a 40 second unit takes 26 1/3 seconds. Where does the discrepancy come from?
Edit: What a hot thread, seems I was beat to the punch.
On April 05 2010 04:14 -orb- wrote: I don't think you understand chrono boost correctly. Stalker is 42 without chrono, 30 with. Immortal is 40 without, 28 with. It's not 50% reduced build time, it's 50% increased building speed, AKA 25% reduced build time.
I even tested this in a custom game. The build time for stalkers was 42 seconds and 30 with chrono (no idea why there's the 2 second discrepancy). The build time for immortals was 40 seconds and 28 with chrono.
Please fix this in the OP, you're making it seem like protoss could get out a stalker in a reasonable about of time in comparison to the marauder.
By my calculations a unit that takes 42 seconds to build, at 1.5x build speed would take 28 seconds and a 40 second unit takes 26 1/3 seconds. Where does the discrepancy come from?
The discrepancy is in the spoiled part of the OP that claims with chrono boost, stalker is 21 seconds and immortal is 20.
A friend of mine and I (both being high Gold players) were talking about the kind of counter square that went on in SC1 where you had Dragoons beating Vultures beating Zealots beating Siege Tanks (with speed) beating Dragoons, and then it really ended up depending on micro/composition as to who wins battles. The reason I say this is because at the moment, there are many of these complex relationships that I think get us away from "hard counters" like EMP vs. Psi Storm vs. Feedback. The Marauder to me just doesn't seem to fit into any of these relationships that I see. It's just so all-purpose. The ideal solution I think is to adjust it in a way so that it synergizes well with another terran unit that makes you want to have both in your army but massing them ends up being detrimental; like how the Protoss army mostly consists of Gateway units supported by Robotic Facility units. Colossus and Immortals are very powerful as support but if you just straight mass them without support they get destroyed quite easily. Perhaps upping the cost and actually making it more powerful could be a solution. Just some musings, any thoughts?
Just add a 10 second cooldown to the slow. Blink isn't an initial skill, neither is Charge or Storm. Pretty much every spell any Protoss unit may have (aside from Sentries - THANK GOD) has to be researched. What do Terrans have to research exactly ? Slow is given, so is Snipe, EMP, Medivacs' healing ability, the only thing I can think of that needs researching is Cloak..
...
Although you said spell, slow is just another ability, let me list "free" protoss abilities for you.
Protoss abilities that do not need research: Immortal - hardened shield Dark templar - permanent cloak + archon warp Sentry - force field + guardian shield Warp Prism - phasing mode Colossus - cliff walk Phoenic - graviton beam High templar - feedback + archon warp Void Ray - prismatic beams Mothership - cloaking field + vortex + mass recall Observer - permanent cloak + detector
But those are hardly worth mentioning are they? I personally think Blizzard went a bit too far with abilities and will pay the price during balancing.
With the marauder nerf that just has to come some day, terran will probably have to get other boosts to stand half a chance versus protoss (as mentioned by better posters/players than me :p).
And why do people that don't have have a key post balance proposals (or in this forum at all)? Oh well.
There is a slight difference between cliffwalk and Blink or Storm. Colossi can cliffwalk but they need the range upgrade to be used to their fullest potential. If Feedback wasn't an initial skill there would be no way to counter EMP. If Phasing Mode had to be researched, you would have to make Zerg research the puking creep abitily the Overlords have and do the same for the Medivacs' heal (which I know I mentioned, but it's a bit different). Protoss have to build an extra building (which has no upgrade for them whatsoever - hello?) just to make Dark Templars, so it's just common sense they have initial cloaking. Phoenixes are worthless, if you make Gravitation Beam an upgrade you might aswell remove the unit from the game. The same goes for Void Ray, would defeat the whole point of the unit. And as for the Mothership... Well, it takes two buildings, 400/400, a two minutes building time, moves damn slowly and takes like 8 food, so it better have all those three spells available right away.
You also still have to take the cost of all that into the balance. Immortals - again - are very expensive and are meant to counter mechanical units with their shields and you would want to make that an upgrade ? Wouldn't be possible to win a single game going Robo. Naming abilities like cliffwalking or hardened shield really has nothing to do with naming powers or spells like Storm and EMP.
Although, it would only be logical that if the Marauders' slow gets some kind of nerf, Immortals would get nerfed too. I suggested a cooldown on the Slow, maybe something similar could be applied to Immortals. Can't think of anything right now tho.
On April 05 2010 04:14 -orb- wrote: I don't think you understand chrono boost correctly. Stalker is 42 without chrono, 30 with. Immortal is 40 without, 28 with. It's not 50% reduced build time, it's 50% increased building speed, AKA 25% reduced build time.
I even tested this in a custom game. The build time for stalkers was 42 seconds and 30 with chrono (no idea why there's the 2 second discrepancy). The build time for immortals was 40 seconds and 28 with chrono.
Please fix this in the OP, you're making it seem like protoss could get out a stalker in a reasonable about of time in comparison to the marauder.
By my calculations a unit that takes 42 seconds to build, at 1.5x build speed would take 28 seconds and a 40 second unit takes 26 1/3 seconds. Where does the discrepancy come from?
The discrepancy is in the spoiled part of the OP that claims with chrono boost, stalker is 21 seconds and immortal is 20.
Don't think this is off topic. So I will rant.
Hmm, I think the OP is wrong in the spoiler part as pointed out by orb. It's not 50% less build time, it's 50% faster build time. They are different. so if one stalker builds in 42 seconds then you get 1/42, and if you have 50% FASTER build time then it's 1.5/42 (that is you can build 1.5 stalkers in the same amount of time. So using my 8th grade ratio knowledge, 1.5/42 = 1/x . Seems like it's 28 seconds. I'm asking why -orb- said 30 seconds and math tells 30. Anyway, not a big deal. As long as everyone realizes it's 28(30) seconds, not 21 seconds.
I don't play toss so I had to research, here, hxxp://www.sc2armory.com/game/protoss/buildings/nexus
PS, didn't realize the OP was saying rauders were imba until re-reading the spoiled stuff. Also didn't realize it wasn't in strategy forums. *bonk*
I suggested a cooldown on the Slow, maybe something similar could be applied to Immortals. Can't think of anything right now tho.
I won't comment on this idea as a solution for the marauder spam, but I actually think that a cooldown on the immortals shield ability could balance the game in regard of the Siege tank vs. immortal imbalance.
This isn't realistic numbers, I just want to give some random numbers here to explain my idea. If, let's say, the Immortal could resist 3 shot, and then had to wait, let's say, 10 secs., before being able to resist again.
This would really improve time micro required for both parties. Terran would have to be very keen on the placement of his tanks, so as soon a immortal gets into range there will always be more than 3 tanks shooting at it etc.. And as the protoss player you really have to keep moving you immortals in and out of siege tank range, and all that moving units with shield ready in the front etc..
Again this is just random numbers, and this mechanic would of course require some more changes to work (the range of the two units for example I would guess) But I think it could solve both imbalance and lack of micro issues.
I think we should just make the SC2 pro mod a reality. Having SC1 in a 3D engine is pretty cool already. I mean as long as the story is completely different and the graphics are updated, people who haven't thought too much about SC1 would not complain that SC2 is the exact same game.
I also think blizzard should just concede to KESPA and give all rights of SC2 to them. We can bring over the hotshot players of SC1 into a pretty straightforward transition into SC2. Games will be casted in high definition with the cool observer/replay abilities.
We can go back to status quo and everyone will be happy.
I think that shifting more of their damage to the bonus versus the correct type and providing a very short cooldown (.3? seconds) before they can shoot after turning more than 90~ degrees would be pretty good.
Here's a list of problems with the TvP matchup right now:
a) the Marine + SCV rush vs. Marines being underused b) the Marauder rape vs. Immortal Rape c) EMP vs. Storm
The way I see it, the best way to address the rush imbalance is very easy: Move sentries to Gateway level tech and change their cost from 50/100 to 75/75. This means that the scv rush is far easier to block with sentries that can forcefield/guardian shield their way to victory. Then, you can undo the Reactor nerf and SCV HP nerf (at least somewhat). This then will go into the next point, where:
Marauders rape everything except Immortals, and Immortals are hard counters to virtually every single Terran mech unit ever.
Let's pretend that Immortals are the Protoss equivalent of Ultralisks for a second. They destroy the marine-medic formations that tend to decimate zerg in the middle-game. They also don't die and eat everything. What were the weaknesses of Ultralisks, though? They were very susceptible to spells and heavy fire (which is negated because of the shields) and they did fairly low damage. 20 + 30 Damage for an Immortal against armored is ridiculous. I suggest lowering the bonus damage from 30 to 10 and in response buff the HP (not shields) of the Immortal. Either that, or change Immortals to just 30 damage against all types. Their shield makes them a hard counter to tanks, and they still can help against roaches.
As for marauders: I was never a huge fan of Marauders purely because they could do everything the marine could, but better. Especially with the reactor nerf it's far better to simply just make marauders than marines. To counter this, I suggest turning the marauder into a slightly different type of unit-rather than shoot slowing missiles, they should take the "fragmentation grenades" of the Vulture a step further-their shots do additional damage over time, so they would shoot 10 + x armored + 1dps for two seconds. The point of the extra damage isn't necessarily to do more damage, but rather to deter enemy regeneration like roaches.
I also suggest supplementing the "additional supply" with an "emergency drop" of 3 marines for 50 energy. Why would u get this instead of the mule? 3 marines is 150 minerals vs 280 for the mule, but you can have that anywhere that you have vision. It's essentially a trade off between having your cake and eating it too, as well as providing another mechanism for producing more marines. This serves to increase reduce the need to simply mass as many marauders as possible because flexibility of one's forces is also necessary, rather than most games ending after a big fight in the middle. Drop pods of marines landing to harass mineral lines, reinforcements landing in to turn the tide, it's all very terranesque -_-
I also suggest changing the Hellion's attack to be more continuous like that of the Void Ray (only without the damage increase). This serves to make them more useful against things like Immortals as they now do their full 18 damage to the shields rather than 10.
I got side tracked, but the whole spell casting thing: spells are nice but it's so easy to evaporate one's army with just one or two spells. Especially because units clump together. A way to fix this might be to introduce a little bit more of a delay in the casting animation as it is too hard to see where caster units are. If you delay the onset of storm and EMP by a little bit the overall effect of each spell will be less and therefore spells won't be as necessarily based on spells. This also encourages more use of forcefield to seal units into areas to storm, as well as increases the utility of tanks as the long range of tanks means that splitting your army into many small groups just results in them getting picked off by tanks one at a time.
There is a lot of hyperbole in this thread about the effectiveness of Marauders. Marauders only beat units they deal bonus damage to dollar for dollar. Marauders lose to Hydras, Zealots and Zerglings (with speed), and Marines. They beat Roaches, Immortals (with EMP), and Stalkers.
On April 05 2010 05:16 yomi wrote: There is a lot of hyperbole in this thread about the effectiveness of Marauders. Marauders only beat units they deal bonus damage to dollar for dollar. Marauders lose to Hydras, Zealots and Zerglings (with speed), and Marines. They beat Roaches, Immortals (with EMP), and Stalkers.
On April 05 2010 05:04 Caller wrote: 20 + 30 Damage for an Immortal against armored is ridiculous. I suggest lowering the bonus damage from 30 to 10 and in response buff the HP (not shields) of the Immortal. Either that, or change Immortals to just 30 damage against all types.
You do know that Marauders does almost double the damage of Immortals costs per cost, right? If you think Immortal damage is ridiculous, then what of the Marauder (which also features a slow, can be healed, stimmed and not EMPed)?
Why do you think everyone things the Marauder is too strong to begin with?
On April 05 2010 05:16 yomi wrote: There is a lot of hyperbole in this thread about the effectiveness of Marauders. Marauders only beat units they deal bonus damage to dollar for dollar. Marauders lose to Hydras, Zealots and Zerglings (with speed), and Marines. They beat Roaches, Immortals (with EMP), and Stalkers.
On April 05 2010 05:04 Caller wrote: 20 + 30 Damage for an Immortal against armored is ridiculous. I suggest lowering the bonus damage from 30 to 10 and in response buff the HP (not shields) of the Immortal. Either that, or change Immortals to just 30 damage against all types.
You do know that Marauders does almost double the damage of Immortals costs per cost, right? If you think Immortal damage is ridiculous, then what of the Marauder (which also features a slow, can be healed, stimmed and not EMPed)?
Why do you think everyone things the Marauder is too strong to begin with?
If you actually read what I said, it's not that the Marauder is too strong per se: it's that it's
a: a boring unit b: the core of the army c: you have no choice but to make this unit in two matchups, otherwise it's essentially an autolose.
And I already put ways to prevent marauders from getting too ridiculous. If you read my post instead of picking a tiny part of it and accusing me of being ignorant, then you would see that I'm supporting lots of ways to prevent marauders from being 100% necessary to this matchup.
On April 04 2010 22:59 mTwLive wrote: I've deep respect of the creator of this topic, but its plain wrong that Marauders are imbalanced in any aspect. First of all you got to micro your marauders, then they 'counter' a zealot in 1v1. And they will counter a stalker in 1v1 without micro.
But have you ever thought about not being stupid and probably building 1 zealot and a stalker? The Zealot tanks the damage and the stalker is faster than a marauder and will kill it. Even works 1Zealot/1Stalker vs 2 Marauder if the Terran isn't paying attention for a second.
On April 04 2010 21:55 Senx wrote: Why don't Protosses get Legspeed on zealots or blink on stalkers to counter mauraders?
stimmed marauders are faster than stalkers >.> they will kite away and your stalkers wont be able to keep all, all your zlots die then marauders just sit and rape your stalkers and how the fuck does blink help at all vs marauders? blink into the marauder blob so your stalkers get raped? blink away from a unit that has equal range to you?
On April 05 2010 05:16 yomi wrote: There is a lot of hyperbole in this thread about the effectiveness of Marauders. Marauders only beat units they deal bonus damage to dollar for dollar. Marauders lose to Hydras, Zealots and Zerglings (with speed), and Marines. They beat Roaches, Immortals (with EMP), and Stalkers.
not really... kited marauders can easily destroy zlots with charge without taking much damage while speedlots can surround maruaders and actually work, you almost never see charge zlots able to pull that off, so they just get kited and slowed and focused until they die.12 chargelots vs 12 stimmed marauders you'd be lucky to kill 2 marauders while losing all your lots. (200/50 vs 1200) pretty cost-effective if you ask me
On April 05 2010 05:16 yomi wrote: There is a lot of hyperbole in this thread about the effectiveness of Marauders. Marauders only beat units they deal bonus damage to dollar for dollar. Marauders lose to Hydras, Zealots and Zerglings (with speed), and Marines. They beat Roaches, Immortals (with EMP), and Stalkers.
Marauders lose to Zealots ? THAT'S NEW !
Without micro its true but with micro zealots get owned thats why i say make zealots and zerglings immune to slow ! think this is like the 40 th ive said it lol
On April 05 2010 04:14 -orb- wrote: I don't think you understand chrono boost correctly. Stalker is 42 without chrono, 30 with. Immortal is 40 without, 28 with. It's not 50% reduced build time, it's 50% increased building speed, AKA 25% reduced build time.
I even tested this in a custom game. The build time for stalkers was 42 seconds and 30 with chrono (no idea why there's the 2 second discrepancy). The build time for immortals was 40 seconds and 28 with chrono.
Please fix this in the OP, you're making it seem like protoss could get out a stalker in a reasonable about of time in comparison to the marauder.
50% faster means 33.(3)% less buildtime, not 25%. Having units build 100% faster results in 50% buildtime, but simply halving the speed % will not give you the right result in any other case, the most obvious example would be that 200% faster build speed will not result in 100% lower buildtime, i.e. no buildtime at all.
42 / 1.5 = 28 40 / 1.5 = 26.(6)
Stalker cooldown is 32 seconds or 32 / 1.5 = 21.(3) with chrono boost, so the difference after toss gets warpgates is pretty small.
Additionally, Marauder build time is 30 seconds, not 33.
Would you like me to show you the replay proving the times I wrote?
You can do math all you'd like but in the replay whatever time it takes it whatever time it takes
On April 04 2010 22:59 mTwLive wrote: I've deep respect of the creator of this topic, but its plain wrong that Marauders are imbalanced in any aspect. First of all you got to micro your marauders, then they 'counter' a zealot in 1v1. And they will counter a stalker in 1v1 without micro.
But have you ever thought about not being stupid and probably building 1 zealot and a stalker? The Zealot tanks the damage and the stalker is faster than a marauder and will kill it. Even works 1Zealot/1Stalker vs 2 Marauder if the Terran isn't paying attention for a second.
On April 04 2010 21:55 Senx wrote: Why don't Protosses get Legspeed on zealots or blink on stalkers to counter mauraders?
stimmed marauders are faster than stalkers >.> they will kite away and your stalkers wont be able to keep all, all your zlots die then marauders just sit and rape your stalkers and how the fuck does blink help at all vs marauders? blink into the marauder blob so your stalkers get raped? blink away from a unit that has equal range to you?
On April 05 2010 05:16 yomi wrote: There is a lot of hyperbole in this thread about the effectiveness of Marauders. Marauders only beat units they deal bonus damage to dollar for dollar. Marauders lose to Hydras, Zealots and Zerglings (with speed), and Marines. They beat Roaches, Immortals (with EMP), and Stalkers.
not really... kited marauders can easily destroy zlots with charge without taking much damage while speedlots can surround maruaders and actually work, you almost never see charge zlots able to pull that off, so they just get kited and slowed and focused until they die.12 chargelots vs 12 stimmed marauders you'd be lucky to kill 2 marauders while losing all your lots. (200/50 vs 1200) pretty cost-effective if you ask me
Marauders are the counter to Stalkers i see nothign wrong with them owning Stalkers
People just don't understand that the terran mech is too weak vs protoss. There is 1 problem: if they buff the terran mech, then zerg will be in trouble (because tanks are atm decent against zerg).
I am a platinum player and going marauder (+ medivac med-late game) doesn't give me always a win (50/50). I agree with making the slowthing an upgrade in the techlab.
On April 04 2010 22:59 mTwLive wrote: I've deep respect of the creator of this topic, but its plain wrong that Marauders are imbalanced in any aspect. First of all you got to micro your marauders, then they 'counter' a zealot in 1v1. And they will counter a stalker in 1v1 without micro.
But have you ever thought about not being stupid and probably building 1 zealot and a stalker? The Zealot tanks the damage and the stalker is faster than a marauder and will kill it. Even works 1Zealot/1Stalker vs 2 Marauder if the Terran isn't paying attention for a second.
On April 04 2010 21:55 Senx wrote: Why don't Protosses get Legspeed on zealots or blink on stalkers to counter mauraders?
stimmed marauders are faster than stalkers >.> they will kite away and your stalkers wont be able to keep all, all your zlots die then marauders just sit and rape your stalkers and how the fuck does blink help at all vs marauders? blink into the marauder blob so your stalkers get raped? blink away from a unit that has equal range to you?
On April 05 2010 05:16 yomi wrote: There is a lot of hyperbole in this thread about the effectiveness of Marauders. Marauders only beat units they deal bonus damage to dollar for dollar. Marauders lose to Hydras, Zealots and Zerglings (with speed), and Marines. They beat Roaches, Immortals (with EMP), and Stalkers.
not really... kited marauders can easily destroy zlots with charge without taking much damage while speedlots can surround maruaders and actually work, you almost never see charge zlots able to pull that off, so they just get kited and slowed and focused until they die.12 chargelots vs 12 stimmed marauders you'd be lucky to kill 2 marauders while losing all your lots. (200/50 vs 1200) pretty cost-effective if you ask me
Marauders are the counter to Stalkers i see nothign wrong with them owning Stalkers
neither do i, but some idiot suggested blink with stalkers would somehow do something against marauders. i fail to see how blink would help in the slightest
why don't we give zealots an attack buff vs armored units? that way you don't mess up the zerg and zealots can counter them better. I mean zealots do have freakin laser swords I think that should cut through armor with ease.
On April 05 2010 06:58 lew wrote: People just don't understand that the terran mech is too weak vs protoss. There is 1 problem: if they buff the terran mech, then zerg will be in trouble (because tanks are atm decent against zerg).
I am a platinum player and going marauder (+ medivac med-late game) doesn't give me always a win (50/50). I agree with making the slowthing an upgrade in the techlab.
for the mech thing kill the Thor toss it away allready and bring back the cobra mech fixed weeee.
As for slow as upgrade you still have the same problem with Marauders kiteing zealots and zerglings when they get it. These units are made to be the counter of marauders if you leave it as a upgrade they still will counter them when the players gets it and they will get its as soon as they can. Problem still there /shrug. Again make zealots and Zerglings immune to slow problem solved
On April 05 2010 06:58 lew wrote: People just don't understand that the terran mech is too weak vs protoss. There is 1 problem: if they buff the terran mech, then zerg will be in trouble (because tanks are atm decent against zerg).
I am a platinum player and going marauder (+ medivac med-late game) doesn't give me always a win (50/50). I agree with making the slowthing an upgrade in the techlab.
for the mech thing kill the Thor toss it away allready and bring back the cobra mech fixed weeee.
As for slow as upgrade you still have the same problem with Marauders kiteing zealots and zerglings when they get it. These units are made to be the counter of marauders if you leave it as a upgrade they still will counter them when the players gets it and they will get its as soon as they can. Problem still there /shrug. Again make zealots and Zerglings immune to slow problem solved
There isn't a problem. At all. Slow is fine. They'd suck badly without it. Speed for lings / charge for zeals directly counter stim. Additionally, immortals/hydras shit ALL OVER marauders for cost. Immortals 3 hit a marauder, and marauders shouldn't even bother vs hydras.
On April 05 2010 06:58 lew wrote: People just don't understand that the terran mech is too weak vs protoss. There is 1 problem: if they buff the terran mech, then zerg will be in trouble (because tanks are atm decent against zerg).
I am a platinum player and going marauder (+ medivac med-late game) doesn't give me always a win (50/50). I agree with making the slowthing an upgrade in the techlab.
for the mech thing kill the Thor toss it away allready and bring back the cobra mech fixed weeee.
As for slow as upgrade you still have the same problem with Marauders kiteing zealots and zerglings when they get it. These units are made to be the counter of marauders if you leave it as a upgrade they still will counter them when the players gets it and they will get its as soon as they can. Problem still there /shrug. Again make zealots and Zerglings immune to slow problem solved
if you really think lings (or even zeals once they have charge) have a problem vs marauders you should just never post again on balance.
I've been saying 1 thing from Day1 of the Beta: Make Tanks better! ^^'
Tanks should be the way to go against Protoss but they are not, because they pretty much suck. ^^' T should play defensively with Tanks, wall-in's, Turrets and slowly push forward, which would be a good strategy if Tanks were good. Instead, we get Marauder-massing "par excellence". Latest example: Zotac Cup Game Miou VS TheLittleOne. TLO played great (yeah, he should've switched tech to Immortals) with Collossi-Drops, High-yield-counterexe and many different Units and Miou just massed Marauders - not because he is a massing noob like many ppl wrote in the noobchat, but because it was simlpy the best option!
You can't go Marines because of Collo's, Hellions aren't as good either, Vikings are only good as counter to Collos, Thor sucks if you don't do cheesey Thor-All-in's against Toss and Tanks are just too weak. In all of my PvT's, at least 95% of the games, the vast majority of the Terran's attacking Units were Marauders, in the other 5% it was some kind of cheese with banshees or Hellion-Drops...
It's not only that I think Marauders are too strong, but as written above, they are pretty much the only Unit T can use against P, which forces P to make Robo and go for Immortals etc. all because of this stupid rock-paper-scissor-mechanics with huge DMG-boni and a few imbalanced skills (sentry-shield is imbalanced against marines for example).
Why not get rid of Bonus-DMG against certain Unit's? That way we wouldn't see the same Units every game and we could be creative on how to counter certain Units, not just be forced to go for Immortals against T or Marauders against Roaches or Hellions against Zlings etc.
back to the Marauder: As written before, the counter to Marauder is supposed to be the Zealot, which clearly is a joke because a Zealot can't even land a hit on a Marauder without heavy Sentry-Support. It's just a bit annoying that the Marauder does slow the target and deals a huge amount of DMG while having a lot of health, so it would be a good Idea making him more of a support-Unit to kinda slow Units to pick stuff off while running around on the Map. maybe make it cheaper but deal a lot less Dmg and have less health?
I guess then the Marines and Tanks would be used more and with a slight Tank-buff, it should be no prob for T to win without Marauders as the heavy DMG-dealers (because Marines deal more DMG anyways). You would then have a nice versatile Army of a few Marauders to slow stuff, lots of Marines and Medivacs +a few Tanks, Ghosts and Vikings if the Protoss went for Collossi. I think that would be alot more fun to play with/against than just pure Marauder...
Perhaps it's the actual slow that is just too strong. Instead of 50% slower unit movement make it enough to slow the unit down but not stop it dead in it's tracks(which is practically how it is now especially when you kite).
Another idea: how about lowering the range of slow but not the actual attack range of the marauder. Let's say slow only has a range of 4 but the marauder can still attack with a range of 6(how it is now). That way the first shot the marauder get's off won't have the slow effect on a unit, since it's done at max range, and by the time the second shot goes off the enemy unit will be much closer before it's hit with a slowing shot and marauder will have to get closer to units to truly be effective.
It's quite late so I might be missing something truly crucial but from what I can see this solutions biggest problem is it not being truly intuitive to new players(and we know how much blizz don't like that).
This would also increase the importance of getting speed to the point where it more or less negates the slow effect since the unit being fired upon is probably getting off it's first attack unslowed(zealots charge has a range of 4 and lings are just fing fast :D).
Prior to beta, I was excited at the idea of Marauders. I really disliked the fact how Terran gameplay in SC1 revolved almost exclusively around Mech (Siege Tanks in particular; obviously, TvZ was an exception) and I thought that the Marauders would help at diversifying the tech choices Terran players had by giving Bio some valuable flexibility. Unfortunately, as the beta proved, Marauders "solved" the problem by simply replacing the Siege Tank as the perfered unit of choice. So now, instead of facing the problem where everything revolves around supporting Siege Tanks, Terran gameplay has the issue of everything revolving around supporting Marauders. While Mech in SC2 is much more of a viable alternative compared to Bio in BW, the Marauder has so many advantages to it that Terran players usually perfer to just go for some type of Marauder build.
As should be evident from my first paragraph, I definitely do not want to see this remain the case when the game goes retail. So I consider this an important issue that must be resolved as soon as possible. And while other aspects would need to be buffed/nerfed as well in order to maintain a satisfactory balance, something needs to be done to the Marauder directly.
One thing that should be changed regardless of everything else is slow. I was actually suprised to find out that Marauders slow all ground units, especially since it once only worked against Biological units. But even against Biological, it is too strong in it's current state as Zealots stand very little fighting chance against them. While I would advocate outright removing it, there is the gameplay aspect of allowing Marauders to be able to micro against Zealots to consider. But I do not think a cooldown would solve the original issue at all. So in my opinion, the best solution would probably be to reduce the effectiveness of slow (perhaps reduce it to 25% reduction instead of 50%?). But if that does not work, then it should be removed completely.
Stim is also a preety oddball issue. I mean, I really found it weird that Blizzard put the Stimpack ability on Marauders....but not on Reapers, for whom it would make sense to have it (both gameplay and lore-wise) and who would need it to make them more useful outside of being an early opening. Regardless of that, there are two ways Marauders can be changed in this case:
a) Keep Stim, but reduce their hitpoints and/or armour (25 seems reasonable, although perhaps they could go as far as 35)
OR
b) Keep the current hitpoints and/or armour, but remove Stim
To be honest, with all it's other benefits, I was amazed that they even gave Marauders stim to begin with. But I suppose Blizzard does want to increase their micro potential.
While we are at it, Marauder's damage might need revision as well. Even if we ignore the issue of Terrans massing Marauders, it is perhaps a bit much that half of their damage is a bonus against Armoured. Instead of 10+10, perhaps 12+5 would be more suitable?
As for changes outside the Marauder directly, I do not necessarilly think that other Terran trees necessarilly need a buff. Infact, compared to how things were in the original SC with Bio and Air, I think Mech and Air in SC2 hold up preety well. I think the main problem with Terran gameplay is both that the Marauders are too good and that other races have too many strong options against other tech trees. The Immortal is the most noticable one here. With Hardened Shields and base 20 damage, it is already a failry formidable unit....but a +30 bonus against Armoured just makes it ridiculous. So aside from Marauders, that needs to be changed as well.
I feel that everyone seems to be saying that Terrans NEED Mauraders b.c they'd lose to roaches w/o them and that they have nothing else.
Each unit should serve a purpose a specific purpose from: - Easy to mass due to no gas cost (ie Lings, Marines, Zealots) - All around solid units (Hydras, Stalkers??) - Harassment (Reapers, Hellions, Lings, Stalkers??, Mutas, Banshees, DTs) - Anti-Armored (Mauraders, Immortals) - Anti-Air (Corrupters, Marines, Stalkers??, Pheonixes, Vikings) - Air units (Void Rays, Banshees, Mutas, etc.) - Late Game / Capital Ships: (BCs, Broodlords, Ultras, Carriers)
The main issue is: If for each of those unit roles, there are units that cost effectively counter them. Eg. Immortals vs tanks, thors, roaches, Ultras. Templars/Colossi vs Marines, Hydras, Lings. And so on for each units and it's respective counter. BUT mauraders are not just an anti-armored unit they beat unarmored units toe to toe as well.
That is the biggest issue.
All this complaints about Immortals. Protoss does not mass Immortals when Terran masses Marines/banshees/BCs or when Zerg masses hydras/lings/mutas. They are a "hard" counter but they are not efficient vs units they are not designed to counter. Find me a high level replay where Toss masses immortals vs non-armored units. It doesn't happen. All the Immortal complaints are b.c. vs mass maruaders we end up being forced to build immortals. So then u build ghosts which make immortals much weaker and continue to build marauders.
Terran should be reacting to the other races, much like Zerg transitions away from roaches when faces with Immortals, away from hydras when faced with Colossi and storm, etc. If you build nothing but 1 unit with a few support units I should realistically be able to counter what you are doing effectively. By effectively I mean w/o spending tons of min/gas in upgrades, teching 2 tiers above you or building units that at cost for cost lose to what they are supposed to counter. AND should i have to spend a lot in upgrades, tech or situational units. I should really be countering what you are doing.
At the moment this is what PvT looks like:
Protoss: Massing Zealots Terran: Make more Marauders.
Protoss: Going for Stalkers Terran: Make more Marauders.
Protoss: Building Immortals Terran: Make more Marauders...tech to ghosts if not already there.
Protoss: Building Colossi Terran: Make more Marauders...use their already existing starport reactor to produce vikings.
Protoss: Making Templars Terran: Oh shit Templars...meh make more Marauders...Micro them, use some ghosts if needed
Protoss: Hmm maybe Speedlots + Sentrys + Colossi would work? Terran: ROFL, MOAR Marauders + Stim = I Win
The game continues until Protoss has lost too many units and is overrun or terran uses his advantage to expand and out Macros the toss player.
SO WHAT IS THE SOLUTION?!? NOTE: These are independent solutions. That means pick one or two of them, do not assess the viability of them based on ALL being used.
NERF Terran 1) Nerf Marauders: less HP, no Stim, less Movespeed, No/Upgraded Slow, lower light damage (Ie instead of 10+10 go with 7+13) etc. PICK ONE or TWO.
2) Nerf EMP: Why? EMP is the #1 reason the intended Marauder counter FAILS. Either have it reduces shield by 50% up to X (more than 100). Or have it as an AoE over time effect, IE A field of EMP that drains X shields over Y seconds, but can be Microed out of. Much like players can micro out of Storm. (other options exists on the Protoss buff side)
WHY? - ATM Terran are relying on a single unit too much, nerf that unit and buff their mech units to encourage them to switch to other units once their marauder mass was countered. Or a nerf to the effectiveness EMP so Immortals can correctly counter Marauders.
BUFF TOSS 1) Buff Zealot Speed: Remove the research on Charge or make it so Zealots have Charge, but no speed until upgraded or vice-versa.
2) Buff Stalkers: Blink as base, or upgraded from Cyber Core. Increase their upgraded damage to armored. ATM they receive +1 Damage (+0 Bonus) from a given upgrade this is insufficient late game. For base blink I think it acceptable for nerf to their range from 6 -> 5 and a researchable bonus to bring that their range back to 6.
3) Buff Immortals: Yes I said it! Specifically buff the Hardened Shield ability such that the unit is less affected by EMP or unaffected at all. I could be a researched buff from the Robo Facility. OR increase it's shields and reduce it's hitpoints such that it's shields are not annihilated by EMP.
4) Buff Shield Research: Make it so each point in Shields increases it's Armor by 1 AND reduces the effect of spells (or just EMP) on that unit by X%.
WHY? If Terrans truly cannot survive w/o their current Marauders then the only solution is to buff protoss such that they can either counter Mass Marauders with something other than Mass Void Rays (lawl).
On April 05 2010 06:58 lew wrote: People just don't understand that the terran mech is too weak vs protoss. There is 1 problem: if they buff the terran mech, then zerg will be in trouble (because tanks are atm decent against zerg).
I am a platinum player and going marauder (+ medivac med-late game) doesn't give me always a win (50/50). I agree with making the slowthing an upgrade in the techlab.
for the mech thing kill the Thor toss it away allready and bring back the cobra mech fixed weeee.
As for slow as upgrade you still have the same problem with Marauders kiteing zealots and zerglings when they get it. These units are made to be the counter of marauders if you leave it as a upgrade they still will counter them when the players gets it and they will get its as soon as they can. Problem still there /shrug. Again make zealots and Zerglings immune to slow problem solved
if you really think lings (or even zeals once they have charge) have a problem vs marauders you should just never post again on balance.
Zerglings with speed no to small and to many so they have no problem zerglings without speed harder and can be kited a bit till killed off a good # then stop and fight. Make it easyer and make them counter it make them immune to slow.
For zealots yes without charge they are worthless vs Marauders. With charge they are meh they can still be kited a bit with the charge on a CD. But agian problem is early game charge is mid gameish. By the time most toss get it its over casue of the spam marauders.
If you think the units that are made to counter them counter them you should stop posting lol.
Lots of these post don't seem to not take other Races into account when you say buff this nerf that. Need to think of all 3 races here just not the races you play with ...
On April 05 2010 04:14 -orb- wrote: I don't think you understand chrono boost correctly. Stalker is 42 without chrono, 30 with. Immortal is 40 without, 28 with. It's not 50% reduced build time, it's 50% increased building speed, AKA 25% reduced build time.
I even tested this in a custom game. The build time for stalkers was 42 seconds and 30 with chrono (no idea why there's the 2 second discrepancy). The build time for immortals was 40 seconds and 28 with chrono.
Please fix this in the OP, you're making it seem like protoss could get out a stalker in a reasonable about of time in comparison to the marauder.
50% faster means 33.(3)% less buildtime, not 25%. Having units build 100% faster results in 50% buildtime, but simply halving the speed % will not give you the right result in any other case, the most obvious example would be that 200% faster build speed will not result in 100% lower buildtime, i.e. no buildtime at all.
42 / 1.5 = 28 40 / 1.5 = 26.(6)
Stalker cooldown is 32 seconds or 32 / 1.5 = 21.(3) with chrono boost, so the difference after toss gets warpgates is pretty small.
Additionally, Marauder build time is 30 seconds, not 33.
Would you like me to show you the replay proving the times I wrote?
You can do math all you'd like but in the replay whatever time it takes it whatever time it takes
I know times arn't based on the faster speed. I think this would account for the timing differences. I'm curious if the stalker comes out in 42 seconds without boost in your replay.
On April 05 2010 07:44 xnub wrote: Lots of these post don't seem to not take other Races into account when you say buff this nerf that. Need to think of all 3 races here just not the races you play with ...
Easy to say that you know.
I keep thinking, get rid of stim. It just too much. I wish roaches were even close to the lvl of marauders. On top of that, Z doesn't have anything against armored units, so Im not surprised all you see is roaches/hydras and perhaps some lings. It seems more and more think mutas are a very costy unit that is easily ward off by opponents (as P gets mass of sentries already and T, marines t1 counter them). Lings arent even real counters, like marauders counter roaches, or like how sentries counter mutas. Why? Get stim and roll over the lings, even with speed upgrade. And you need tons of lings to hit the marauder and for a while before it dies, even more so with heals and moving all the time.
Lots of these post don't seem to not take other Races into account when you say buff this nerf that. Need to think of all 3 races here just not the races you play with ...
I don't know if that is directed at me or not, but I'll respond.
Many of the Marauder Nerfs proposes would affect the TvZ match up, so I proposed a few Protoss buffs that either will not heavily affect ZvP or will have no effect at all on ZvP.
The Zealot buff would more than likely not cause a big impact on PvZ though I could see having charge as base a little too good vs roaches. Perhaps have +speed base and Charge as ab upgrade would be best. Lings would still be faster than Zealots on Creep and building Zealots is a known early game counter to mass lings, so a speed buff wouldn't make a large difference.
The stalker buff does little to nothing vs Zerg since +1 Armored damage from upgrades would not affect Zerg's ability to go Muta, roaches are still > stalkers and Broodlords are uncommon.
The Immortal Hardened Shield buff would not affect zerg matchup, unless they made it a general reduction in the effect of spells/abilities on Immortals. Part of me feels a specific buff vs EMP would be highly unlikely.
Shield Buff would barely affect the Zerg matchup. And if it's only for EMP it would have NO effect on Zerg at all. I doubt the shield buff would ever happen, as a general anti-spell buff to all Protoss units would be too good.
It seems more and more think mutas are a very costy unit that is easily ward off by opponents (as P gets mass of sentries already and T, marines t1 counter them). Lings arent even real counters, like marauders counter roaches, or like how sentries counter mutas.
W/o going off topic. While yes toss does go Sentry and terran Marines, Mutas are very maneuverable and an excellent harass unit, plus due to the "splash" damage they deal they are very effective though albeit expensive when massed.
Problem is that Tier 1.5 units are much too useful for their position on the tech tree, and Tier 1 units simply cannot compete with units in Tiers higher than they are.
The average damage and hitpoints of units increases far too much as you go up Tiers, and especially Tier 1.5 units are too easy to mass relatively quickly.
Blizzard seriously needs to lower the overall damage and hitpoints of Tier 1.5-3 units and make these units harder to mass either by tweaking min/gas/supply costs and/or increasing build time.
Some overall changes that should be made are:
- Lower initial health/damage of Tier 1.5 units and increase one or more of min/gas/supply/time costs to make them harder to mass quickly.
- Lower survivability of Tier 2/3 units and make them even harder to mass by increasing their gas cost or increasing build time. Increasing gas cost and lowering Tier 3 units' effectiveness when used exclusively will encourage the production of lower Tier units to complement the Tier 3 units.
The specific numerical changes can be ironed out later. What I'm proposing is a change in the general trend of the game and its tech patterns.
These changes are general changes that should be made in a way that encourages using currently unfeasible unit mixes (mech) and discourages the use of only a limited variety of units (Marauders, Roach). Also, lowering overall survivability of units will place more emphasis on good micro rather than tanking ability of the unit. In addition, certain units should retain high damage output as long as they encourage interesting gameplay army control.
Only units I'd preserve are Tier 1 units, buildings, and casters.
People need to stop clinging to strategies that get them wins when the resulting game is both uninteresting to watch and unbalanced.
On April 05 2010 06:58 lew wrote: People just don't understand that the terran mech is too weak vs protoss. There is 1 problem: if they buff the terran mech, then zerg will be in trouble (because tanks are atm decent against zerg).
I am a platinum player and going marauder (+ medivac med-late game) doesn't give me always a win (50/50). I agree with making the slowthing an upgrade in the techlab.
for the mech thing kill the Thor toss it away allready and bring back the cobra mech fixed weeee.
As for slow as upgrade you still have the same problem with Marauders kiteing zealots and zerglings when they get it. These units are made to be the counter of marauders if you leave it as a upgrade they still will counter them when the players gets it and they will get its as soon as they can. Problem still there /shrug. Again make zealots and Zerglings immune to slow problem solved
I don't want to take away any of the uniqueness from the unit. I think altering the abilities directly just turns the marauder into a generic RTS ranged shooter unit. Less units for the slow to affect means less chances to micro. Also from a realistic/lore standpoint, light units should be affected the most from the force of an infantry weapon, as opposed to an armored unit. Just picture being a marauder and being able to slow the moving speed of an incoming tank with the force of your shot, but not a zergling. I think that might look a little silly during combat.
I know, sometimes the kiting can get a little ridiculous. Making the ability a research would at least give zerg and toss a little bit of time to get out units other than zerglings and zealots.
Easier solution: Reduce the god damn HP, for christs sake, does anyone else think that having an infantry unit that has the same armor and 25 less hp than a tank(that costs considerably more) is a little ridiculous? Make the tank an actual tough and defensive armored vehicle. Give it enough armor and HP to compensate for a more fragile marauder. Remember units should compliment each others weaknesses, not overlap(if two units serve the same purpose the superior one will always be picked over the inferior).
Yeah I see how people are saying the immortal just counters all terran mech with its huge damage bonus to armored. Not sure sure if any buff to mech will fix this, if a immortal nerf is needed in place of a mech buff, or maybe the immortal is fine. Anyone care to elaborate? I'm a little hesitant on if the immortal needs to be touched to compensate a marauder nerf. Do you guys think that perhaps buffing mech won't solve the immortal mech rape but just throw off tvz, where terran isn't dying for a buff mech quite as bad?
Lots of these post don't seem to not take other Races into account when you say buff this nerf that. Need to think of all 3 races here just not the races you play with ...
I don't know if that is directed at me or not, but I'll respond.
Many of the Marauder Nerfs proposes would affect the TvZ match up, so I proposed a few Protoss buffs that either will not heavily affect ZvP or will have no effect at all on ZvP.
The Zealot buff would more than likely not cause a big impact on PvZ though I could see having charge as base a little too good vs roaches. Perhaps have +speed base and Charge as ab upgrade would be best. Lings would still be faster than Zealots on Creep and building Zealots is a known early game counter to mass lings, so a speed buff wouldn't make a large difference.
The stalker buff does little to nothing vs Zerg since +1 Armored damage from upgrades would not affect Zerg's ability to go Muta, roaches are still > stalkers and Broodlords are uncommon.
The Immortal Hardened Shield buff would not affect zerg matchup, unless they made it a general reduction in the effect of spells/abilities on Immortals. Part of me feels a specific buff vs EMP would be highly unlikely.
Shield Buff would barely affect the Zerg matchup. And if it's only for EMP it would have NO effect on Zerg at all. I doubt the shield buff would ever happen, as a general anti-spell buff to all Protoss units would be too good.
So most of these still effect pvz and pvp where as change zealots and zerglings immune to slow changes only t v z or p ...
It seems to be that higher tier units need to increase in Damage/Health to make the early tech strategy. When you spend 150 min on a GY, 150 on a Cyber, 200/100 on a Robo and 200/200 on a RoboBay, plus 300/200 for a Colossus you can't have that unit dealing low damage as your opponent could've used the 1000min and 500 gas to build 2 Baracks, 2 Techlabs and a Bunch of Marauders.
I do however agree they need to nerf the damage/hp for T1.5 units. Look at Stalkers, Zealots and Sentrys for comparison. Blizzard specifically made stalkers weak to avoid the SC1's Dragoon awesomeness issue. Stalkers do less DPS than Zealots, Sentry as well, and all cost more than their T1 counterparts. Stalkers have extra Health, but Sentries are weaker than Zealots HP wise.
On April 05 2010 06:58 lew wrote: People just don't understand that the terran mech is too weak vs protoss. There is 1 problem: if they buff the terran mech, then zerg will be in trouble (because tanks are atm decent against zerg).
I am a platinum player and going marauder (+ medivac med-late game) doesn't give me always a win (50/50). I agree with making the slowthing an upgrade in the techlab.
for the mech thing kill the Thor toss it away allready and bring back the cobra mech fixed weeee.
As for slow as upgrade you still have the same problem with Marauders kiteing zealots and zerglings when they get it. These units are made to be the counter of marauders if you leave it as a upgrade they still will counter them when the players gets it and they will get its as soon as they can. Problem still there /shrug. Again make zealots and Zerglings immune to slow problem solved
I don't want to take away any of the uniqueness from the unit. I think altering the abilities directly just turns the marauder into a generic RTS ranged shooter unit. Less units for the slow to affect means less chances to micro. Also from a realistic/lore standpoint, light units should be affected the most from the force of an infantry weapon, as opposed to an armored unit. Just picture being a marauder and being able to slow the moving speed of an incoming tank with the force of your shot, but not a zergling. I think that might look a little silly during combat.
I know, sometimes the kiting can get a little ridiculous. Making the ability a research would at least give zerg and toss a little bit of time to get out units other than zerglings and zealots.
Easier solution: Reduce the god damn HP, for christs sake, does anyone else think that having an infantry unit that has the same armor and 25 less hp than a tank(that costs considerably more) is a little ridiculous?
No cause tanks are support units that made to stay in the back and have meat shields in front of them. Also lower hp so they can be picked off by good micro from air or ground flank units. if you have nothing infront of your tanks you fail or its a tvt by way.
and research the problems is still there you are just pushing it back by a min or less. Not really fixing it. Reduceing the HP you are taking away terrans only meatshield unit.
Also if you want to go lore why would a rocket do less dmg to a light target with no armor and do more to armored target ? lore does not fit in SC2 mp or rts for balance talks lol. You still have many units to micro with as well and slow. This also cause no other problems with effecting somthing else /shrug
On April 05 2010 08:33 Daerthalus wrote: It seems to be that higher tier units need to increase in Damage/Health to make the early tech strategy. When you spend 150 min on a GY, 150 on a Cyber, 200/100 on a Robo and 200/200 on a RoboBay, plus 300/200 for a Colossus you can't have that unit dealing low damage as your opponent could've used the 1000min and 500 gas to build 2 Baracks, 2 Techlabs and a Bunch of Marauders.
I do however agree they need to nerf the damage/hp for T1.5 units. Look at Stalkers, Zealots and Sentrys for comparison. Blizzard specifically made stalkers weak to avoid the SC1's Dragoon awesomeness issue. Stalkers do less DPS than Zealots, Sentry as well, and all cost more than their T1 counterparts. Stalkers have extra Health, but Sentries are weaker than Zealots HP wise.
No, higher tech units don't need an increase in damage or health, Tier 1.5-3 units need an overall decrease in hitpoints, decreased damage output, and increased build time.
Avoid looking at it from a strictly resourcing point of view, because it will not happen that way. Look at the general trends in combination with the numbers. People like to stick to Tier 1.5 units because they are generally much better than Tier 1 units, they are comparable to Tier 3 units, and they can be massed relatively quickly for relatively little cost.
Protoss seems to be the only race that has a good unit mix in its armies, though Immortals and Colossi are becoming much too mandatory in my opinion and are too easily massed like the Roach and Marauder.
On April 05 2010 08:23 LunarC wrote: Problem is that Tier 1.5 units are much too useful for their position on the tech tree, and Tier 1 units simply cannot compete with units in Tiers higher than they are.
The average damage and hitpoints of units increases far too much as you go up Tiers, and especially Tier 1.5 units are too easy to mass relatively quickly.
Blizzard seriously needs to lower the overall damage and hitpoints of Tier 1.5-3 units and make these units harder to mass either by tweaking min/gas/supply costs and/or increasing build time.
Some overall changes that should be made are:
- Lower initial health/damage of Tier 1.5 units and increase one or more of min/gas/supply/time costs to make them harder to mass quickly.
- Lower survivability of Tier 2/3 units and make them even harder to mass by increasing their gas cost or increasing build time. Increasing gas cost and lowering Tier 3 units' effectiveness when used exclusively will encourage the production of lower Tier units to complement the Tier 3 units.
The specific numerical changes can be ironed out later. What I'm proposing is a change in the general trend of the game and its tech patterns.
These changes are general changes that should be made in a way that encourages using currently unfeasible unit mixes (mech) and discourages the use of only a limited variety of units (Marauders, Roach). Also, lowering overall survivability of units will place more emphasis on good micro rather than tanking ability of the unit. In addition, certain units should retain high damage output as long as they encourage interesting gameplay army control.
Only units I'd preserve are Tier 1 units, buildings, and casters.
People need to stop clinging to strategies that get them wins when the resulting game is both uninteresting to watch and unbalanced.
Really? To prevent massing of tier 3 units? When did you ever see massing of colli without zealot support or similar support? When did you ever see BCs massed? That never happens, with or without support. And when did you at all see ultras?
I agree 100% on the fact that tier 1.5 units are too strong (and maybe some tier 2 units, immortals). But i really don't think tier 3 is at all too powerful.
A lot of seasoned players agree that Marauders are in a way killing the game.
It's not that they're necessarily overpowered (though some people will say this) it's that they're so boring. They are so well rounded and excel in nearly every area. They make Terran game play very 1 dimensional and static. Marauders are the one size fits all approach to nearly everything. They don't necessarily win you games on the spot, but you're always using them no matter what the match up, for the same purpose. Terrans simply just mass up marauders and beat down everything with brute force. This might sound cool at first, but it makes every game feel the same.
Here's the many pros I came up with for what makes Marauders good: -Marauders are relatively cheap and very affordable -Marauders have good range -Marauders slow down melee units (Which are SUPPOSED to be the counter to them. More on this later) -Marauders do bonus damage to armored units -Marauders are pretty fast considering how much damage they deal -Marauders have high HP compared to other low level units. (They have health that is close to that of SC1 tank units) -Can be loaded into bunkers
Now here's the very few cons of using Marauders: -Cannot attack air -.... Are there even any other ones? Seriously. I can't think of any.
What are the counters to Marauders? Well off the top of my head, let's have a go: -Immortals (Though it ends up usually being an even trade off of resource costs) -Hydras seem to match them evenly (Not 100% on this one) -Banshees, BattleCruisers -Warp Rays make a really really weak counter to pure marauders -Pheonixes with good micro -Mutalisks -Broodlords -Tanks (sorta)
The list is kind of big, but a lot of the ones I could think of were either a trade off with the marauders or too far up the tech tree/expensive to be practical.
Light melee units are supposed to hard counter Marauders, but they can't even do their jobs because the Marauder's slowing ability makes it impossible for them to approach. The slowing ability combined with the range and decent move speed makes it impossible for melee units to get a good surround.
Some possible solutions for marauders:
-Decrease or remove the slowing effect. It's gratuitous and instead of making Marauders interesting it just axes off their hard counters. While decreasing the Marauder's range or speed would make this ability have a purpose and not just a gratuitous buff on an already amazing unit, in its current state it just makes Zerglings and Zealots useless against Marauders.
-Buff other Terran options. I think to make this one work, Marauders would still have to be nerfed a little bit to balance it out. A lot of people say they don't want Marauders nerfed because Terran has no other options. If Marauders weren't good at everything, other Terran units would have to be improved to at least have a pivotal role in supporting Marauders
-Change their armor type. If Marauders were heavy armored, stalkers would at least be able to hold their own against them. Terran would need its other units that counter stalkers buffed to support this, I think.
-Decrease Marauder range. I'm not entirely sure on this one, but I think it's interesting. People would have to move their Marauders in closer and micro their way to beating their opponents. The slowing ability would actually make sense here, because it would help them chase down and move in closer to the enemy units with longer range.
-Decreasing speed on Marauders. This way, Marauders slowing grenades will have a purpose. Again, marauders will have to chase down other units because they're slower. The slowing grenades would be useful for this.
I think a combination of these solutions in moderation would work wonders. The biggest ones being that if the Marauder gets nerfed, other terran units need a buff.
On April 05 2010 08:23 LunarC wrote: Problem is that Tier 1.5 units are much too useful for their position on the tech tree, and Tier 1 units simply cannot compete with units in Tiers higher than they are.
The average damage and hitpoints of units increases far too much as you go up Tiers, and especially Tier 1.5 units are too easy to mass relatively quickly.
Blizzard seriously needs to lower the overall damage and hitpoints of Tier 1.5-3 units and make these units harder to mass either by tweaking min/gas/supply costs and/or increasing build time.
Some overall changes that should be made are:
- Lower initial health/damage of Tier 1.5 units and increase one or more of min/gas/supply/time costs to make them harder to mass quickly.
- Lower survivability of Tier 2/3 units and make them even harder to mass by increasing their gas cost or increasing build time. Increasing gas cost and lowering Tier 3 units' effectiveness when used exclusively will encourage the production of lower Tier units to complement the Tier 3 units.
The specific numerical changes can be ironed out later. What I'm proposing is a change in the general trend of the game and its tech patterns.
These changes are general changes that should be made in a way that encourages using currently unfeasible unit mixes (mech) and discourages the use of only a limited variety of units (Marauders, Roach). Also, lowering overall survivability of units will place more emphasis on good micro rather than tanking ability of the unit. In addition, certain units should retain high damage output as long as they encourage interesting gameplay army control.
Only units I'd preserve are Tier 1 units, buildings, and casters.
People need to stop clinging to strategies that get them wins when the resulting game is both uninteresting to watch and unbalanced.
Really? To prevent massing of tier 3 units? When did you ever see massing of colli without zealot support or similar support? When did you ever see BCs massed? That never happens, with or without support. And when did you at all see ultras?
I agree 100% on the fact that tier 1.5 units are too strong (and maybe some tier 2 units, immortals). But i really don't think tier 3 is at all too powerful.
You're right. Tier 3 is the least of my concerns with the way Starcraft 2 is turning out. I'm just trying to point out that units are much too robust and too many units deal large amounts of damage to compensate for increased hitpoints. Just look at how quickly buildings that have the same hitpoints from Starcraft 1 fall in Starcraft 2.
I think the attempt was to reduce importance of micro to emphasize army composition, but Blizzard's stepping on its own foot by raising average hp and damage so much.
On April 05 2010 08:46 Ronald_McD wrote: Here's a post I just made in the Blizz forums:
A lot of seasoned players agree that Marauders are in a way killing the game.
It's not that they're necessarily overpowered (though some people will say this) it's that they're so boring. They are so well rounded and excel in nearly every area. They make Terran game play very 1 dimensional and static. Marauders are the one size fits all approach to nearly everything. They don't necessarily win you games on the spot, but you're always using them no matter what the match up, for the same purpose. Terrans simply just mass up marauders and beat down everything with brute force. This might sound cool at first, but it makes every game feel the same.
Here's the many pros I came up with for what makes Marauders good: -Marauders are relatively cheap and very affordable -Marauders have good range -Marauders slow down melee units (Which are SUPPOSED to be the counter to them. More on this later) -Marauders do bonus damage to armored units -Marauders are pretty fast considering how much damage they deal -Marauders have high HP compared to other low level units. (They have health that is close to that of SC1 tank units) -Can be loaded into bunkers
Now here's the very few cons of using Marauders: -Cannot attack air -.... Are there even any other ones? Seriously. I can't think of any.
What are the counters to Marauders? Well off the top of my head, let's have a go: -Immortals (Though it ends up usually being an even trade off of resource costs) -Hydras seem to match them evenly (Not 100% on this one) -Banshees, BattleCruisers -Warp Rays make a really really weak counter to pure marauders -Pheonixes with good micro -Mutalisks -Broodlords -Tanks (sorta)
The list is kind of big, but a lot of the ones I could think of were either a trade off with the marauders or too far up the tech tree/expensive to be practical.
Light melee units are supposed to hard counter Marauders, but they can't even do their jobs because the Marauder's slowing ability makes it impossible for them to approach. The slowing ability combined with the range and decent move speed makes it impossible for melee units to get a good surround.
Some possible solutions for marauders:
-Decrease or remove the slowing effect. It's gratuitous and instead of making Marauders interesting it just axes off their hard counters. While decreasing the Marauder's range or speed would make this ability have a purpose and not just a gratuitous buff on an already amazing unit, in its current state it just makes Zerglings and Zealots useless against Marauders.
-Buff other Terran options. I think to make this one work, Marauders would still have to be nerfed a little bit to balance it out. A lot of people say they don't want Marauders nerfed because Terran has no other options. If Marauders weren't good at everything, other Terran units would have to be improved to at least have a pivotal role in supporting Marauders
-Change their armor type. If Marauders were heavy armored, stalkers would at least be able to hold their own against them. Terran would need its other units that counter stalkers buffed to support this, I think.
-Decrease Marauder range. I'm not entirely sure on this one, but I think it's interesting. People would have to move their Marauders in closer and micro their way to beating their opponents. The slowing ability would actually make sense here, because it would help them chase down and move in closer to the enemy units with longer range.
-Decreasing speed on Marauders. This way, Marauders slowing grenades will have a purpose. Again, marauders will have to chase down other units because they're slower. The slowing grenades would be useful for this.
I think a combination of these solutions in moderation would work wonders. The biggest ones being that if the Marauder gets nerfed, other terran units need a buff.
You want the Marauder to be less boring and you want to REMOVE slow? I'd rather see a general decrease of hp and attack strength, and increase in build time of Tier 1.5-2 units. If Marauders must be nerfed to create this general decrease of hp, attack, and increase of build time, then buff mech by reducing supply cost of Tanks and decreasing their gas cost.
On April 05 2010 08:46 Ronald_McD wrote: Here's a post I just made in the Blizz forums:
A lot of seasoned players agree that Marauders are in a way killing the game.
It's not that they're necessarily overpowered (though some people will say this) it's that they're so boring. They are so well rounded and excel in nearly every area. They make Terran game play very 1 dimensional and static. Marauders are the one size fits all approach to nearly everything. They don't necessarily win you games on the spot, but you're always using them no matter what the match up, for the same purpose. Terrans simply just mass up marauders and beat down everything with brute force. This might sound cool at first, but it makes every game feel the same.
Here's the many pros I came up with for what makes Marauders good: -Marauders are relatively cheap and very affordable -Marauders have good range -Marauders slow down melee units (Which are SUPPOSED to be the counter to them. More on this later) -Marauders do bonus damage to armored units -Marauders are pretty fast considering how much damage they deal -Marauders have high HP compared to other low level units. (They have health that is close to that of SC1 tank units) -Can be loaded into bunkers
Now here's the very few cons of using Marauders: -Cannot attack air -.... Are there even any other ones? Seriously. I can't think of any.
What are the counters to Marauders? Well off the top of my head, let's have a go: -Immortals (Though it ends up usually being an even trade off of resource costs) -Hydras seem to match them evenly (Not 100% on this one) -Banshees, BattleCruisers -Warp Rays make a really really weak counter to pure marauders -Pheonixes with good micro -Mutalisks -Broodlords -Tanks (sorta)
The list is kind of big, but a lot of the ones I could think of were either a trade off with the marauders or too far up the tech tree/expensive to be practical.
Light melee units are supposed to hard counter Marauders, but they can't even do their jobs because the Marauder's slowing ability makes it impossible for them to approach. The slowing ability combined with the range and decent move speed makes it impossible for melee units to get a good surround.
Some possible solutions for marauders:
-Decrease or remove the slowing effect. It's gratuitous and instead of making Marauders interesting it just axes off their hard counters. While decreasing the Marauder's range or speed would make this ability have a purpose and not just a gratuitous buff on an already amazing unit, in its current state it just makes Zerglings and Zealots useless against Marauders.
-Buff other Terran options. I think to make this one work, Marauders would still have to be nerfed a little bit to balance it out. A lot of people say they don't want Marauders nerfed because Terran has no other options. If Marauders weren't good at everything, other Terran units would have to be improved to at least have a pivotal role in supporting Marauders
-Change their armor type. If Marauders were heavy armored, stalkers would at least be able to hold their own against them. Terran would need its other units that counter stalkers buffed to support this, I think.
-Decrease Marauder range. I'm not entirely sure on this one, but I think it's interesting. People would have to move their Marauders in closer and micro their way to beating their opponents. The slowing ability would actually make sense here, because it would help them chase down and move in closer to the enemy units with longer range.
-Decreasing speed on Marauders. This way, Marauders slowing grenades will have a purpose. Again, marauders will have to chase down other units because they're slower. The slowing grenades would be useful for this.
I think a combination of these solutions in moderation would work wonders. The biggest ones being that if the Marauder gets nerfed, other terran units need a buff.
Phoenix with good micro still don't counter marauders Warp rays? It's void rays and they are pretty decent.
The problem isn't the Marauders themselves it's what you have to do counter them. As a Terran player I can say this, if the protoss has sentry+immortal+charged zealots, Marauders will lose. However even as a Terran player is does not seem fair to counter one massed unit Protoss player have to get so many different compositions. It reminds me of earlier Beta where zerg player masses hydras and Terran players have to get a lot of compositions to counter them... oh wait they still do that. I'm just going to cry now... and cry more
Another fix Is adding an upgrade to make the slow a small AoE (.5), a buff, then adding a "kickback", after attacking, theirs a brief period where the maraunder plays a "kickback" animation and is unable to move.
This would allow it to fulfill a more heavily supportive role within the MM army, slowing down melee targets for marines to pick off, as well as adding much needed dps against armor and structures, but is unreliable by itself.
Removing stim is something else I kinda like too, but would probably make things worse if it was done without other changes.
On April 05 2010 08:46 Ronald_McD wrote: Here's a post I just made in the Blizz forums:
A lot of seasoned players agree that Marauders are in a way killing the game.
It's not that they're necessarily overpowered (though some people will say this) it's that they're so boring. They are so well rounded and excel in nearly every area. They make Terran game play very 1 dimensional and static. Marauders are the one size fits all approach to nearly everything. They don't necessarily win you games on the spot, but you're always using them no matter what the match up, for the same purpose. Terrans simply just mass up marauders and beat down everything with brute force. This might sound cool at first, but it makes every game feel the same.
Here's the many pros I came up with for what makes Marauders good: -Marauders are relatively cheap and very affordable -Marauders have good range -Marauders slow down melee units (Which are SUPPOSED to be the counter to them. More on this later) -Marauders do bonus damage to armored units -Marauders are pretty fast considering how much damage they deal -Marauders have high HP compared to other low level units. (They have health that is close to that of SC1 tank units) -Can be loaded into bunkers
Now here's the very few cons of using Marauders: -Cannot attack air -.... Are there even any other ones? Seriously. I can't think of any.
What are the counters to Marauders? Well off the top of my head, let's have a go: -Immortals (Though it ends up usually being an even trade off of resource costs) -Hydras seem to match them evenly (Not 100% on this one) -Banshees, BattleCruisers -Warp Rays make a really really weak counter to pure marauders -Pheonixes with good micro -Mutalisks -Broodlords -Tanks (sorta)
The list is kind of big, but a lot of the ones I could think of were either a trade off with the marauders or too far up the tech tree/expensive to be practical.
Light melee units are supposed to hard counter Marauders, but they can't even do their jobs because the Marauder's slowing ability makes it impossible for them to approach. The slowing ability combined with the range and decent move speed makes it impossible for melee units to get a good surround.
Some possible solutions for marauders:
-Decrease or remove the slowing effect. It's gratuitous and instead of making Marauders interesting it just axes off their hard counters. While decreasing the Marauder's range or speed would make this ability have a purpose and not just a gratuitous buff on an already amazing unit, in its current state it just makes Zerglings and Zealots useless against Marauders.
-Buff other Terran options. I think to make this one work, Marauders would still have to be nerfed a little bit to balance it out. A lot of people say they don't want Marauders nerfed because Terran has no other options. If Marauders weren't good at everything, other Terran units would have to be improved to at least have a pivotal role in supporting Marauders
-Change their armor type. If Marauders were heavy armored, stalkers would at least be able to hold their own against them. Terran would need its other units that counter stalkers buffed to support this, I think.
-Decrease Marauder range. I'm not entirely sure on this one, but I think it's interesting. People would have to move their Marauders in closer and micro their way to beating their opponents. The slowing ability would actually make sense here, because it would help them chase down and move in closer to the enemy units with longer range.
-Decreasing speed on Marauders. This way, Marauders slowing grenades will have a purpose. Again, marauders will have to chase down other units because they're slower. The slowing grenades would be useful for this.
I think a combination of these solutions in moderation would work wonders. The biggest ones being that if the Marauder gets nerfed, other terran units need a buff.
You want the Marauder to be less boring and you want to REMOVE slow? I'd rather see a general decrease of hp and attack strength, and increase in build time of Tier 1.5-2 units. If Marauders must be nerfed to create this general decrease of hp, attack, and increase of build time, then buff mech by reducing supply cost of Tanks and decreasing their gas cost.
EDIT: Apologies for the double post...
I don't think, that he thinks, that the marauder is boring because of it "playstyle" or as a mechanic, but boring because of the fact that is getting used all the time. Which he actuelly even says himself -.-
It's not that they're necessarily overpowered (though some people will say this) it's that they're so boring [...] Terrans simply just mass up marauders and beat down everything with brute force. This might sound cool at first, but it makes every game feel the same.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. It's not just Marauders, it's a good majority of Tier 1.5-2 that suffers from hp inflation and damage inflation, not to mention being way too easily massed. Increasing build times/gas cost/supply cost, decreasing hp, and slightly decreasing damage will make diverse army composition essential and micro will become even more important because you cannot mass those units as easily anymore.
Focusing too much on one unit will cause people to lose sight of the bigger picture. So, they attribute the Marauder's "boringness" to something particular about it, rather than the general state of the game.
On April 05 2010 04:14 -orb- wrote: I don't think you understand chrono boost correctly. Stalker is 42 without chrono, 30 with. Immortal is 40 without, 28 with. It's not 50% reduced build time, it's 50% increased building speed, AKA 25% reduced build time.
I even tested this in a custom game. The build time for stalkers was 42 seconds and 30 with chrono (no idea why there's the 2 second discrepancy). The build time for immortals was 40 seconds and 28 with chrono.
Please fix this in the OP, you're making it seem like protoss could get out a stalker in a reasonable about of time in comparison to the marauder.
50% faster means 33.(3)% less buildtime, not 25%. Having units build 100% faster results in 50% buildtime, but simply halving the speed % will not give you the right result in any other case, the most obvious example would be that 200% faster build speed will not result in 100% lower buildtime, i.e. no buildtime at all.
42 / 1.5 = 28 40 / 1.5 = 26.(6)
Stalker cooldown is 32 seconds or 32 / 1.5 = 21.(3) with chrono boost, so the difference after toss gets warpgates is pretty small.
Additionally, Marauder build time is 30 seconds, not 33.
Would you like me to show you the replay proving the times I wrote?
You can do math all you'd like but in the replay whatever time it takes it whatever time it takes
You can't show me a replay proving the times you wrote, because such a replay doesn't exist.
I just did a test and a chrono boosted gateway builds stalkers in exactly 28 seconds replay time, so clearly you didn't have chrono 100% of the time the stalker was building and most likely used it again only after animation ended, which is clearly a flawed test and easily explains why you get ~2 seconds on top in both your "tests".
Remove the slow ability. It's been done to death in WC3 and was a blessed relief to escape from when I started SC after being a WC3er. Constant slow abilities are unfun, anti-skill and have a very negative effect on tactical choices that are viable. Sure, if slow goes Terran would need help, I am not saying Terran should be weak (most readers would not assume this but this kind of discussion and the predictably idiotic response of 'you just want xyz to be weak because you are abc' comes up in most game betas), it is only the specific ability slow that must go.
On April 05 2010 08:46 Ronald_McD wrote: Here's a post I just made in the Blizz forums:
A lot of seasoned players agree that Marauders are in a way killing the game.
It's not that they're necessarily overpowered (though some people will say this) it's that they're so boring. They are so well rounded and excel in nearly every area. They make Terran game play very 1 dimensional and static. Marauders are the one size fits all approach to nearly everything. They don't necessarily win you games on the spot, but you're always using them no matter what the match up, for the same purpose. Terrans simply just mass up marauders and beat down everything with brute force. This might sound cool at first, but it makes every game feel the same.
Here's the many pros I came up with for what makes Marauders good: -Marauders are relatively cheap and very affordable -Marauders have good range -Marauders slow down melee units (Which are SUPPOSED to be the counter to them. More on this later) -Marauders do bonus damage to armored units -Marauders are pretty fast considering how much damage they deal -Marauders have high HP compared to other low level units. (They have health that is close to that of SC1 tank units) -Can be loaded into bunkers
Now here's the very few cons of using Marauders: -Cannot attack air -.... Are there even any other ones? Seriously. I can't think of any.
What are the counters to Marauders? Well off the top of my head, let's have a go: -Immortals (Though it ends up usually being an even trade off of resource costs) -Hydras seem to match them evenly (Not 100% on this one) -Banshees, BattleCruisers -Warp Rays make a really really weak counter to pure marauders -Pheonixes with good micro -Mutalisks -Broodlords -Tanks (sorta)
The list is kind of big, but a lot of the ones I could think of were either a trade off with the marauders or too far up the tech tree/expensive to be practical.
Light melee units are supposed to hard counter Marauders, but they can't even do their jobs because the Marauder's slowing ability makes it impossible for them to approach. The slowing ability combined with the range and decent move speed makes it impossible for melee units to get a good surround.
Some possible solutions for marauders:
-Decrease or remove the slowing effect. It's gratuitous and instead of making Marauders interesting it just axes off their hard counters. While decreasing the Marauder's range or speed would make this ability have a purpose and not just a gratuitous buff on an already amazing unit, in its current state it just makes Zerglings and Zealots useless against Marauders.
-Buff other Terran options. I think to make this one work, Marauders would still have to be nerfed a little bit to balance it out. A lot of people say they don't want Marauders nerfed because Terran has no other options. If Marauders weren't good at everything, other Terran units would have to be improved to at least have a pivotal role in supporting Marauders
-Change their armor type. If Marauders were heavy armored, stalkers would at least be able to hold their own against them. Terran would need its other units that counter stalkers buffed to support this, I think.
-Decrease Marauder range. I'm not entirely sure on this one, but I think it's interesting. People would have to move their Marauders in closer and micro their way to beating their opponents. The slowing ability would actually make sense here, because it would help them chase down and move in closer to the enemy units with longer range.
-Decreasing speed on Marauders. This way, Marauders slowing grenades will have a purpose. Again, marauders will have to chase down other units because they're slower. The slowing grenades would be useful for this.
I think a combination of these solutions in moderation would work wonders. The biggest ones being that if the Marauder gets nerfed, other terran units need a buff.
Would still be able to kite zealots and zerglings and removeing it would just make a plain old boring unit and you would need to add somthing cool to them like all the other teir 1.5 units have.
Would still leave the same problem with marauders and not fix the problem altho go go buff mech kill the thor bring back cobra.
Marauders are armored allready ....
would screw up MM combos if they both hade same range placment would be messed
Again would screw up the MM mix rines out in front all the time where as you want them in back. Also still would not fix the kiteing of zealots would help with zerglings. Unless you made them uber slow
And yes if marauders do get a big nerf mech better get a buff and Reactor build time should be unnerf or lowered. But if you just make it so that the slow does not effect Zealots and Zerglings the counter to Marauders problem solved no need for any other changes.
I agree a lot with Demuslim's post in the OP. The problem is that terrans literally have nothing else good to beat protoss with, if you nerf marauders. It goes in a format sort of like this: Marauders > Protoss > Terran. I do think marauders are too strong in their current state, but it becomes a problem when you just solely nerf them and don't change anything else, because then protoss has a huge advantage and can win easily. There seems to be a huge web of interlinked units that would need to be changed/fixed in order to remove mass marauders from the equation. You'd either need to buff mech enough to where they don't die instantly to immortals, or you'd need to nerf immortals in some way that still makes them strong but not instant win vs mech. Having your army comprised of mostly marines vs P doesn't really work that well anymore now that people have figured out how to keep their colossi alive, and there's psi storm in the late game. Especially since you can't even get out enough marines anymore with the build time and reactor build time nerf, there's just no way that you can skew towards marines instead of marauders and win vs P. You NEED mech (or something else to be changed) to work if you are going to make mass marauders not work anymore.
Perhaps Marauder stats and cost need to be rescaled as a 3 supply unit, and Siege Tanks as a 2 supply unit. If you did that, you could get it so that their combat potential wasn't terribly different in terms of raw damage, BUT it would be much more difficult to kite Zealots because the Zealots would always outnumber the Marauders.
If I recall correctly, this was one of the ways they reworked Dryads in the Warcraft 3 beta, which were having similar issues of being able to kite entire armies because they were so cheap and massable.
On April 05 2010 08:46 Ronald_McD wrote: Here's a post I just made in the Blizz forums:
A lot of seasoned players agree that Marauders are in a way killing the game.
It's not that they're necessarily overpowered (though some people will say this) it's that they're so boring. They are so well rounded and excel in nearly every area. They make Terran game play very 1 dimensional and static. Marauders are the one size fits all approach to nearly everything. They don't necessarily win you games on the spot, but you're always using them no matter what the match up, for the same purpose. Terrans simply just mass up marauders and beat down everything with brute force. This might sound cool at first, but it makes every game feel the same.
Here's the many pros I came up with for what makes Marauders good: -Marauders are relatively cheap and very affordable -Marauders have good range -Marauders slow down melee units (Which are SUPPOSED to be the counter to them. More on this later) -Marauders do bonus damage to armored units -Marauders are pretty fast considering how much damage they deal -Marauders have high HP compared to other low level units. (They have health that is close to that of SC1 tank units) -Can be loaded into bunkers
Now here's the very few cons of using Marauders: -Cannot attack air -.... Are there even any other ones? Seriously. I can't think of any.
What are the counters to Marauders? Well off the top of my head, let's have a go: -Immortals (Though it ends up usually being an even trade off of resource costs) -Hydras seem to match them evenly (Not 100% on this one) -Banshees, BattleCruisers -Warp Rays make a really really weak counter to pure marauders -Pheonixes with good micro -Mutalisks -Broodlords -Tanks (sorta)
The list is kind of big, but a lot of the ones I could think of were either a trade off with the marauders or too far up the tech tree/expensive to be practical.
Light melee units are supposed to hard counter Marauders, but they can't even do their jobs because the Marauder's slowing ability makes it impossible for them to approach. The slowing ability combined with the range and decent move speed makes it impossible for melee units to get a good surround.
Some possible solutions for marauders:
-Decrease or remove the slowing effect. It's gratuitous and instead of making Marauders interesting it just axes off their hard counters. While decreasing the Marauder's range or speed would make this ability have a purpose and not just a gratuitous buff on an already amazing unit, in its current state it just makes Zerglings and Zealots useless against Marauders.
-Buff other Terran options. I think to make this one work, Marauders would still have to be nerfed a little bit to balance it out. A lot of people say they don't want Marauders nerfed because Terran has no other options. If Marauders weren't good at everything, other Terran units would have to be improved to at least have a pivotal role in supporting Marauders
-Change their armor type. If Marauders were heavy armored, stalkers would at least be able to hold their own against them. Terran would need its other units that counter stalkers buffed to support this, I think.
-Decrease Marauder range. I'm not entirely sure on this one, but I think it's interesting. People would have to move their Marauders in closer and micro their way to beating their opponents. The slowing ability would actually make sense here, because it would help them chase down and move in closer to the enemy units with longer range.
-Decreasing speed on Marauders. This way, Marauders slowing grenades will have a purpose. Again, marauders will have to chase down other units because they're slower. The slowing grenades would be useful for this.
I think a combination of these solutions in moderation would work wonders. The biggest ones being that if the Marauder gets nerfed, other terran units need a buff.
You want the Marauder to be less boring and you want to REMOVE slow?
It's not like slow is interesting. It's just a passive on it's attack. Wouldn't hurt the units "interestingness" (lol is that even a word) if it was removed imo.
On April 05 2010 08:46 Ronald_McD wrote: Here's a post I just made in the Blizz forums:
A lot of seasoned players agree that Marauders are in a way killing the game.
It's not that they're necessarily overpowered (though some people will say this) it's that they're so boring. They are so well rounded and excel in nearly every area. They make Terran game play very 1 dimensional and static. Marauders are the one size fits all approach to nearly everything. They don't necessarily win you games on the spot, but you're always using them no matter what the match up, for the same purpose. Terrans simply just mass up marauders and beat down everything with brute force. This might sound cool at first, but it makes every game feel the same.
Here's the many pros I came up with for what makes Marauders good: -Marauders are relatively cheap and very affordable -Marauders have good range -Marauders slow down melee units (Which are SUPPOSED to be the counter to them. More on this later) -Marauders do bonus damage to armored units -Marauders are pretty fast considering how much damage they deal -Marauders have high HP compared to other low level units. (They have health that is close to that of SC1 tank units) -Can be loaded into bunkers
Now here's the very few cons of using Marauders:
-Cannot attack air -.... Are there even any other ones? Seriously. I can't think of any.
What are the counters to Marauders? Well off the top of my head, let's have a go: -Immortals (Though it ends up usually being an even trade off of resource costs) -Hydras seem to match them evenly (Not 100% on this one) -Banshees, BattleCruisers -Warp Rays make a really really weak counter to pure marauders -Pheonixes with good micro -Mutalisks -Broodlords -Tanks (sorta)
The list is kind of big, but a lot of the ones I could think of were either a trade off with the marauders or too far up the tech tree/expensive to be practical.
Light melee units are supposed to hard counter Marauders, but they can't even do their jobs because the Marauder's slowing ability makes it impossible for them to approach. The slowing ability combined with the range and decent move speed makes it impossible for melee units to get a good surround.
Some possible solutions for marauders:
-Decrease or remove the slowing effect. It's gratuitous and instead of making Marauders interesting it just axes off their hard counters. While decreasing the Marauder's range or speed would make this ability have a purpose and not just a gratuitous buff on an already amazing unit, in its current state it just makes Zerglings and Zealots useless against Marauders.
-Buff other Terran options. I think to make this one work, Marauders would still have to be nerfed a little bit to balance it out. A lot of people say they don't want Marauders nerfed because Terran has no other options. If Marauders weren't good at everything, other Terran units would have to be improved to at least have a pivotal role in supporting Marauders
-Change their armor type. If Marauders were heavy armored, stalkers would at least be able to hold their own against them. Terran would need its other units that counter stalkers buffed to support this, I think.
-Decrease Marauder range. I'm not entirely sure on this one, but I think it's interesting. People would have to move their Marauders in closer and micro their way to beating their opponents. The slowing ability would actually make sense here, because it would help them chase down and move in closer to the enemy units with longer range.
-Decreasing speed on Marauders. This way, Marauders slowing grenades will have a purpose. Again, marauders will have to chase down other units because they're slower. The slowing grenades would be useful for this.
I think a combination of these solutions in moderation would work wonders. The biggest ones being that if the Marauder gets nerfed, other terran units need a buff.
You want the Marauder to be less boring and you want to REMOVE slow?
It's not like slow is interesting. It's just a passive on it's attack. Wouldn't hurt the units "interestingness" (lol is that even a word) if it was removed imo.
If it really is a high hp/high dmg with slow attack unit...it should shoot slower. for it to stim and shoot so fast with such an attack is not making it distinct. Seige tank's powerful but slow attacks make it distinct. If marauders attacks were slower (and if you want slightly increase its attack) it will make it more as the support/unit to slow units down with a powerful concussive attack and let the high dps units to finish off the slow unit. It alone should not do the job. Marauder attacking an enemy unit trying to retreat should slow it and then have a higher cool down so the unit can escape before marauder can shoot again to finish it off. that does not defeat the purpose of slow because it makes it so that marauder has a single purpose - to slow so that OTHER units can take out the retreating unit.
On April 05 2010 09:02 Half wrote: Another fix Is adding an upgrade to make the slow a small AoE (.5), a buff, then adding a "kickback", after attacking, theirs a brief period where the maraunder plays a "kickback" animation and is unable to move.
This would allow it to fulfill a more heavily supportive role within the MM army, slowing down melee targets for marines to pick off, as well as adding much needed dps against armor and structures, but is unreliable by itself.
Removing stim is something else I kinda like too, but would probably make things worse if it was done without other changes.
I really think we should be thinking more along these lines.
Make the slow an activatable small AOE ability that roots the marauder in place for a few seconds after cast. This way marauder would still be exactly as good, expect for the fact that you'll lose a few marauders as you kite, which will even out casualties on both sides. This even requires more micro than the current marauder.
This will fix the OPness of the marauder, since blizzard just got to balance the numbers, so that the terran have to sacrifice enough marauders to keep the enemy army slowed. This could for example be the range of the AOE. People complained about all other solutions for fixing the OP marauder leading to less micro requirements, but this fix actually requires more.
As I said before, if you nerf Marauders, you better buff Tanks, or nerf Roaches and Immortals. Along with that, I would like the Thor's 250MM cannons increased to range 7, so as enough to counter Immortals (somewhat), and allow for Collo micro to take them down.
My hypothetical patch for Terran:
Marauder -
• HP reduced by 10 • Price increased to 30 Gas from 25 Gas • Tech Lab build time increased to 30 seconds • Base Armor 0
Marine -
• Changed build time from 25 seconds to 20 seconds
Crucio Siege Tank -
• HP increased by 10 • Armor increased by 1 • Build time reduced to 45 seconds • Gas cost reduced to 100 • Unsiege Damage changed from 15+10 Armored, Attack: Normal, to 15, Attack: Fast • Siege and Unsiege animations changed from 4 seconds to 3 seconds • Supply cost changed from 3 to 2
Thor -
• 250 MM Cannon ability range increased to 7
Reactor -
• Time to build decreased to 40 seconds
Supply Drop -
• Mechanic changed from 50 Energy +8 Supply to 30 Energy, +6 Supply, +1 Armor, +50 HP
Hellion -
• Mineral price reduced to 80 • Fixed Animation so as to allow 'Vulture' Micro
Mule -
• Mechanic changed from 50 Energy 90 Seconds, to 25 Energy, 30 Seconds
Banshee -
• Damage changed from 12x2 to 10x2 • HP reduced from 140 to 125
Viking -
• Base Armor changed from 0 to 1 • Flying to Ground Animation changed from 3 seconds to 1 second • Mineral Price changed from 150 to 125
Misc -
• Engineering Bay can now lift off • SCV HP increased to 50 • Bunkers base load increased to 5 • Bunkers HP increased to 450 from 400 • Ghost Academy moved to Tier 2 • EMP Radius now 1.5 • Ghost HP reduced to 65 from 100 • Ghost price reduced from 150 Mineral 150 Gas to 125 Mineral 100 Gas • Reaper scrapped • Factory price changed from 150 Gas to 100 Gas • New Highground Mechanic: Units on low ground now have sight of high ground units. High Ground advantage: Units on low ground damage reduced by 30%.
That sums up about the gist of balance changes needed to Terran to make both bio and mech available.
On April 05 2010 09:56 Rothbardian wrote: As I said before, if you nerf Marauders, you better buff Tanks, or nerf Roaches and Immortals. Along with that, I would like the Thor's 250MM cannons increased to range 7, so as enough to counter Immortals (somewhat), and allow for Collo micro to take them down.
My hypothetical patch for Terran:
Marauder -
• HP reduced by 10 • Price increased to 30 Gas from 25 Gas • Tech Lab build time increased to 30 seconds • Base Armor 0
Marine -
• Changed build time from 25 seconds to 20 seconds
Crucio Siege Tank -
• HP increased by 10 • Armor increased by 1 • Build time reduced to 45 seconds • Gas cost reduced to 100 • Unsiege Damage changed from 15+10 Armored, Attack: Normal, to 15, Attack: Fast • Siege and Unsiege animations changed from 4 seconds to 3 seconds • Supply cost changed from 3 to 2
Thor -
• 250 MM Cannon ability range increased to 7
Reactor -
• Time to build decreased to 40 seconds
Supply Drop -
• Mechanic changed from 50 Energy +8 Supply to 30 Energy, +6 Supply, +1 Armor, +50 HP
Hellion -
• Mineral price reduced to 80 • Fixed Animation so as to allow 'Vulture' Micro
Mule -
• Mechanic changed from 50 Energy 90 Seconds, to 25 Energy, 30 Seconds
Banshee -
• Damage changed from 12x2 to 10x2 • HP reduced from 140 to 125
Viking -
• Base Armor changed from 0 to 1 • Flying to Ground Animation changed from 3 seconds to 1 second • Mineral Price changed from 150 to 125
Misc -
• Engineering Bay can now lift off • SCV HP increased to 50 • Bunkers base load increased to 5 • Bunkers HP increased to 450 from 400 • Ghost Academy moved to Tier 2 • EMP Radius now 1.5 • Ghost HP reduced to 65 from 100 • Ghost price reduced from 150 Mineral 150 Gas to 125 Mineral 100 Gas • Reaper scrapped • Factory price changed from 150 Gas to 100 Gas • New Highground Mechanic: Units on low ground now have sight of high ground units. High Ground advantage: Units on low ground damage reduced by 30%.
That sums up about the gist of balance changes needed to Terran to make both bio and mech available.
yaaa so most of these changes change the face of the game in tvt tvp and tvz ... most of them for the worse. then alot of them are just gimmicks thats still would not be used.
On April 05 2010 09:56 Rothbardian wrote: As I said before, if you nerf Marauders, you better buff Tanks, or nerf Roaches and Immortals. Along with that, I would like the Thor's 250MM cannons increased to range 7, so as enough to counter Immortals (somewhat), and allow for Collo micro to take them down.
My hypothetical patch for Terran:
Marauder -
• HP reduced by 10 • Price increased to 30 Gas from 25 Gas • Tech Lab build time increased to 30 seconds • Base Armor 0
Marine -
• Changed build time from 25 seconds to 20 seconds
Crucio Siege Tank -
• HP increased by 10 • Armor increased by 1 • Build time reduced to 45 seconds • Gas cost reduced to 100 • Unsiege Damage changed from 15+10 Armored, Attack: Normal, to 15, Attack: Fast • Siege and Unsiege animations changed from 4 seconds to 3 seconds • Supply cost changed from 3 to 2
Thor -
• 250 MM Cannon ability range increased to 7
Reactor -
• Time to build decreased to 40 seconds
Supply Drop -
• Mechanic changed from 50 Energy +8 Supply to 30 Energy, +6 Supply, +1 Armor, +50 HP
Hellion -
• Mineral price reduced to 80 • Fixed Animation so as to allow 'Vulture' Micro
Mule -
• Mechanic changed from 50 Energy 90 Seconds, to 25 Energy, 30 Seconds
Banshee -
• Damage changed from 12x2 to 10x2 • HP reduced from 140 to 125
Viking -
• Base Armor changed from 0 to 1 • Flying to Ground Animation changed from 3 seconds to 1 second • Mineral Price changed from 150 to 125
Misc -
• Engineering Bay can now lift off • SCV HP increased to 50 • Bunkers base load increased to 5 • Bunkers HP increased to 450 from 400 • Ghost Academy moved to Tier 2 • EMP Radius now 1.5 • Ghost HP reduced to 65 from 100 • Ghost price reduced from 150 Mineral 150 Gas to 125 Mineral 100 Gas • Reaper scrapped • Factory price changed from 150 Gas to 100 Gas • New Highground Mechanic: Units on low ground now have sight of high ground units. High Ground advantage: Units on low ground damage reduced by 30%.
That sums up about the gist of balance changes needed to Terran to make both bio and mech available.
yaaa so most of these changes change the face of the game in tvt tvp and tvz ... most of them for the worse. then alot of them are just gimmicks thats still would not be used.
also fax is 100 gas
Would you like to explain your reasoning? What does 'for the worse' mean? Also, yes you are right, Factory is 100 Gas right now. Besides, what the fuck is a patch for if it isn't to 'change the face of the game'? Aren't we trying to make Mech more viable vZ and vP? Why even have Mech if it is far inferior to bio vZ and vP?
What are the gimmicks? Changing around statistics? Having a similar high-ground positional advantage as in SC I?
• HP reduced by 10 • Price increased to 30 Gas from 25 Gas • Tech Lab build time increased to 30 seconds • Base Armor 0
This doesnt change much tbh... sure its nerfed a bit, but the actual thing thats seen as OP isnt even slightly involved with this. Also, armored units with 0 armor?
Crucio Siege Tank -
• HP increased by 10 • Armor increased by 1 • Build time reduced to 45 seconds • Gas cost reduced to 100 • Unsiege Damage changed from 15+10 Armored, Attack: Normal, to 15, Attack: Fast • Siege and Unsiege animations changed from 4 seconds to 3 seconds • Supply cost changed from 3 to 2
This is a bit too much of a buff. Keep armor/HP, keep siege/unsiege same, reduce supply to 2, price 125/100 is better imo.
Supply Drop -
• Mechanic changed from 50 Energy +8 Supply to 30 Energy, +6 Supply, +1 Armor, +50 HP
Looks good.
Hellion -
• Mineral price reduced to 80 • Fixed Animation so as to allow 'Vulture' Micro
Mule -
• Mechanic changed from 50 Energy 90 Seconds, to 25 Energy, 30 Seconds
Both no, mule should stay as it is. And hellion shouldnt become cheaper. If people want vultures so badly play sc1.
Viking -
• Base Armor changed from 0 to 1 • Flying to Ground Animation changed from 3 seconds to 1 second • Mineral Price changed from 150 to 125
Theyre really good as they are now. I don't really see why they need buffs. The flying to ground sounds reasonable, as long as ground to air isn't also 1 sec.
Misc -
• Engineering Bay can now lift off. - Yes • SCV HP increased to 50. - Yes • Bunkers base load increased to 5. - No • Bunkers HP increased to 450 from 400. - No • Ghost Academy moved to Tier 2. - No • EMP Radius now 1.5. - No • Ghost HP reduced to 65 from 100. - No, this would be a too much of a huge nerf. • Ghost price reduced from 150 Mineral 150 Gas to 125 Mineral 100 Gas. - No • Reaper scrapped. - No, reapers simply need a decent buff from +dmg to make them viable • Factory price changed from 150 Gas to 100 Gas. - Isnt it already 100? • New Highground Mechanic: Units on low ground now have sight of high ground units. High Ground advantage: Units on low ground damage reduced by 30%. - No, just no. Make it similar to SC1 and its fine.
I stick to the usual supposed nerf for marauder, remove stim. Stim is really the only thing that makes them too extreme.
Personally, scrapping stim from marauders would almost make them not worthwhile mid-late game, leaving t almost helpless with ground vs ground. They are the roach of the t army... the backbone to tank in fights and still put out dps. If you get rid you stim for something that is 100/25 is just too extreme imo.
To be honest I don't think the high ground miss chance is something I would like to see. While I believe it would add tactical strategy in terms of army positioning. I honestly feel it would encourage 1base cube/macro play due to ledge advantage. While this is not a huge issue, it is rather annoying having to play long games because people turtle and macro up with towers, a hill advantage would only add to this imo.
As for marauder stims, it's hard to say. Having only marines with stims seems... odd. There would have to be a substitute stim implemented or something else to compensate, I think just stims for marines would be broing, and would even maybe make it not as viable to get. I think we'd have to see how it plays out but, flat out just shredding off stims is something I would not like to see.
On April 05 2010 10:34 Vlare wrote: To be honest I don't think the high ground miss chance is something I would like to see. While I believe it would add tactical strategy in terms of army positioning. I honestly feel it would encourage 1base cube/macro play due to ledge advantage. While this is not a huge issue, it is rather annoying having to play long games because people turtle and macro up with towers, a hill advantage would only add to this imo.
• HP reduced by 10 • Price increased to 30 Gas from 25 Gas • Tech Lab build time increased to 30 seconds • Base Armor 0
This doesnt change much tbh... sure its nerfed a bit, but the actual thing thats seen as OP isnt even slightly involved with this. Also, armored units with 0 armor?
• HP increased by 10 • Armor increased by 1 • Build time reduced to 45 seconds • Gas cost reduced to 100 • Unsiege Damage changed from 15+10 Armored, Attack: Normal, to 15, Attack: Fast • Siege and Unsiege animations changed from 4 seconds to 3 seconds • Supply cost changed from 3 to 2
This is a bit too much of a buff. Keep armor/HP, keep siege/unsiege same, reduce supply to 2, price 125/100 is better imo.
• Base Armor changed from 0 to 1 • Flying to Ground Animation changed from 3 seconds to 1 second • Mineral Price changed from 150 to 125
Theyre really good as they are now. I don't really see why they need buffs. The flying to ground sounds reasonable, as long as ground to air isn't also 1 sec.
• Engineering Bay can now lift off. - Yes • SCV HP increased to 50. - Yes • Bunkers base load increased to 5. - No • Bunkers HP increased to 450 from 400. - No • Ghost Academy moved to Tier 2. - No • EMP Radius now 1.5. - No • Ghost HP reduced to 65 from 100. - No, this would be a too much of a huge nerf. • Ghost price reduced from 150 Mineral 150 Gas to 125 Mineral 100 Gas. - No • Reaper scrapped. - No, reapers simply need a decent buff from +dmg to make them viable • Factory price changed from 150 Gas to 100 Gas. - Isnt it already 100? • New Highground Mechanic: Units on low ground now have sight of high ground units. High Ground advantage: Units on low ground damage reduced by 30%. - No, just no. Make it similar to SC1 and its fine.
I stick to the usual supposed nerf for marauder, remove stim. Stim is really the only thing that makes them too extreme.
Reasonable objections.
Marauders are too easily amassed right now, and this fixes that, it also tremendously helps Zealots and Zerglings, its natural counter. As for Base Armor being 0, so are Vikings and they are armored.
The buffs to the Siege Tank are badly needed. They are so bad right now because of the new SC II mechanics and units. Roaches completely obliterate Tanks, and so do Immortals & Collo w/ support. Not to mention Zealots with charge take out Tanks much better than Speedlots did in SC I. Perhaps it is too much of a buff, if it is, it can be adjusted.
Mule is far too good right now. I play a huge macro oriented game, and many times I find myself even out-macroing great Zerg players. Try 14CC builds, it completely dominates (on most maps). Also, I would like to encourage a little more decision making with the OC energy. Reducing energy prices for both supply mechanic and mule, and giving a somewhat more even decision, along with keeping Scan @ 50 more available is great. This gives a more 3-way tug action between them and opens up a ton of different macro options.
Hellion is just far too weak for 100 minerals. They don't even counter what they are supposed to when Speedlings come out, especially when they are on creep. Making them a bit more cost effective, also allows a little better 'shield' for Tanks. I don't want the Vulture back, hence not adding spider mines. I would also like them to have great micro opportunity something they lack right now due to their animation being ridiculous long and clunky.
My suggestion for Bunkers are because they are horribly weak right now. Immortals, Banelings, and the rest tear right through them. Allowing a little longer survivability, and HP would go a long way. I'm even up for adding another armor, in return to taking away the Salvage ability. Seems weird the supposed best defensive race has the worse static base defense (Bunker/Turret compared to Z/P Static defense).
Vikings right now are only good insofar as Corruptors are good vs Capital ships. They take far too long to transition from Ground/Air and vice versa. I would like Vikings to see a more ground oriented role also.
As for reapers....Terran all ready has too many overlapping roles for Harassment. Hellion & Viking & Medi's are more than enough. Reaper is a redundant unit that needs to go, besides, there should never be a unit built around solely harassing. Way too one-dimensional.
As for Ghosts. I feel like are bit too powerful. Decreasing their radius in conjunction with HT, and reducing cost by making them Tier 2 is I think a good suggestion. If the HP nerf is too much then fix the cloak price.
As for High Ground Mechanic. I'm fine with either the 50% miss chance, or 30% damage dealt reduction.
People are saying marauders are too all-purpose and should not be such a strong core army unit, but without overhauling terran's army composition is this really a realistic goal? What other ground unit is going to populate the terran army? Marines are too low hp to me massed alone as they are destroyed by storm, colossus, tanks, roaches, fungal growth. Hellions and reapers are both mostly designed for harassment and tanks and ghosts are support units. Thors are just far too expensive and viking's ground form is just simply not cost effective at all, and shouldn't be, because it would make the unit too flexible. The marauder is placed in a spot where it is clearly meant to fill out a lot of the core of the terran army, similar to how toss has lots/sentries which pretty well always remain useful and take hits for other more expensive, less massible units.
We also need to consider having a strong core is very important to terran compared to other races, because they have to commit to their unit production more than other races. While techlabs and reactors can be lifted into, they still force the terran to commit to certain unit productions a lot more than having 1 hatchery produce every kind of unit, or the warpgate being able to produce 5 different units with only tech buildings needed.
It is hard to remove the marauder from its core position int he army short of adding a brand new unit or mechanic to the game that will fill the roll of tanking up damage. Rather than removing the marauder from the roll of being a core unit, I think we should really be looking at is: is the maruder balanced?
One of the major concern most people seem to have is Marauders in TvP. First, 'Marauders beat all gateway units toss has' yes, 1:1 the marauder does wreck all these units however a mix of zealot, stalker, sentry can do quite decently vs marauders when microed properly, forcefield + guardian shield really allows lots to get in and once they do, they do very well vs marauders, especially with the support of stalkers and immortals. The stalkers do have a very strong ability to kite with stim, but blink and guardian shield can be used to block marauders line of retreat and zealot charge helps them get in on marauders. Also, later storm and or colossus can be used vs marauders in mass to deal significant damage. Now, we say toss shouldn't need so much diversity to counter 1 unit, but lets think, is this really a legitimate statement? Is having to have a diverse army really an imbalance? I wouldn't say so, gates can produce zealots, stalkers & sentries and with warpgates it is very easy to modify these #s and rebuild whatever units you are low on. Also, does this forced diveristy in units leave toss prone to switch techs? No, not really, with variations in numbers of lots/stalker/sentries this core is effective vs marines, hellions and banshees.
Also, lots of people stating terran mech is weak. Yes, hellions do not fill the role vultures do, interestingly enough marauders do fill this gap decently. In TvT tanks are very effective, and even TvZ I feel tanks definitely have their place, but are not very massable because of zergs mobility. The biggest problem is not that tanks are too weak, but they are completely unviable vs protoss because of immortals. Immortals are so ridiculously strong vs tanks, hardened shields + 3 shot tanks + is far more mobile. Immortals also can be produced very quickly. Immortals even destroy thors, and.. well.. hellions are a bit of a joke vs them. The problem is not that mech is weak, but that immortals make it not viable TvP.
All this being said, I'm not saying marauders shouldn't be looked at. The biggest thing to me, is that they are a bit too effective vs buildings. The only possible change I could see to stim is having it cost more health to use, removing stim from this unit would make it really fall off later in the game. Changes like production times can't really be put in place, because they already require a rax + tech lab (200 minerals 25 gas) and take 30 seconds to build. If we compare this to say, warpgates which cost 150 and build units in 10 seconds, or hatcheries/queens which can produce a ton of units for their cost, nerfing the build time would put terran in a very hard spot, unable to match other race's rate of production without investing tons of money into unit producing buildings. Another thing to consider is that there are expansions already planned, and more units will most likely be added. In these expansions a new unit could possibly help relieve some of terran's dependency on the marauder. I would be very surprised if the expansion units were not being factored in to the picture in blizzard's minds regarding diversity and options.
About the marauder being 'boring', it is a core unit, of course its a bit boring. Marines, zealots, stalkers, lings, roaches, hydras are all low tech, core units, that are fairly straightforward and could all be called a bit 'boring'. I really fail to see what makes the marauder so much less interesting compared to other units. If we look at the dragoon in SC1 which was comparably versatile to the marauder, quite good vs pretty well everything and can also attack air, I don't really see what makes a dragoon so incredibly interesting compared to a marauder. It infact has fewer facets as all it does is attack and move, with crappy pathing no less. People's complaints about how 'boring' the unit is really should be thought out and considered in more detail imo. Simply disliking the aesthetic of the unit is not really a good enough reason to change a unit.
just got a beta key and after an hour of gaming and 9 games, I realized how broken terran is right now. I played 4 PvT and all terrans went mass marauder... It seems like they really have no other option...
On April 05 2010 09:56 Rothbardian wrote: As I said before, if you nerf Marauders, you better buff Tanks, or nerf Roaches and Immortals. Along with that, I would like the Thor's 250MM cannons increased to range 7, so as enough to counter Immortals (somewhat), and allow for Collo micro to take them down.
My hypothetical patch for Terran:
Marauder -
• HP reduced by 10 • Price increased to 30 Gas from 25 Gas • Tech Lab build time increased to 30 seconds • Base Armor 0
Marine -
• Changed build time from 25 seconds to 20 seconds
Crucio Siege Tank -
• HP increased by 10 • Armor increased by 1 • Build time reduced to 45 seconds • Gas cost reduced to 100 • Unsiege Damage changed from 15+10 Armored, Attack: Normal, to 15, Attack: Fast • Siege and Unsiege animations changed from 4 seconds to 3 seconds • Supply cost changed from 3 to 2
Thor -
• 250 MM Cannon ability range increased to 7
Reactor -
• Time to build decreased to 40 seconds
Supply Drop -
• Mechanic changed from 50 Energy +8 Supply to 30 Energy, +6 Supply, +1 Armor, +50 HP
Hellion -
• Mineral price reduced to 80 • Fixed Animation so as to allow 'Vulture' Micro
Mule -
• Mechanic changed from 50 Energy 90 Seconds, to 25 Energy, 30 Seconds
Banshee -
• Damage changed from 12x2 to 10x2 • HP reduced from 140 to 125
Viking -
• Base Armor changed from 0 to 1 • Flying to Ground Animation changed from 3 seconds to 1 second • Mineral Price changed from 150 to 125
Misc -
• Engineering Bay can now lift off • SCV HP increased to 50 • Bunkers base load increased to 5 • Bunkers HP increased to 450 from 400 • Ghost Academy moved to Tier 2 • EMP Radius now 1.5 • Ghost HP reduced to 65 from 100 • Ghost price reduced from 150 Mineral 150 Gas to 125 Mineral 100 Gas • Reaper scrapped • Factory price changed from 150 Gas to 100 Gas • New Highground Mechanic: Units on low ground now have sight of high ground units. High Ground advantage: Units on low ground damage reduced by 30%.
That sums up about the gist of balance changes needed to Terran to make both bio and mech available.
Does not change the Fact Marauders are OP due to them being good VS there counter Zealots and Zerglings
Think 25 is better then 20 before it was way to many rines if they unnerf the reactor and nerf the maraudar should work out good
Hard to buff the tank when it is allready very stronge support unit. problem with mech is not the tank or the hellion its the thor being so shitty as a front line unit to be the meat to back them up. WTB cobra back.
Gimick that would be used vs colo only. But thor is a shiity unit anyways and should just be removed go go cobra. Or if it stays better to just increase its normal range not its worthless spell.
Ya should be change back to what it was or lower. 2 nerfs to marins was way to much and discourages unit mix. When also nerfing medvac,viks and hellion timing hars psuh w/e.
would not make a differnce still would not be used and any bust would still get thro and be little more then a gimick. not going to use it early when you can allready hold everything with a few scv's and you would have to give up a mule.
allready cheap and good for most part and i don't get the fix Animation thing its allready easy to macro /shrug no idea what it means.
Why change mule when it works good as it is ?
Nerf to banshess dmg ummm y ? Not OP and very easy to counter. HP change in last patch i would revert but see why they did it now that fix defence AA rape them quick.
and for the misc you want to make it so terran can turtle more easy .... ya not needed. You want to scrap reapers y ? god harsment unit not op easy to counter good for late game scouting and messing with expansions etc. Then you want to nerf the ghost to hell y. When marauder is fixed we will need it. allready in late game its a tiny bit in favor of the toss.
Like i said most this stuff just cause other problems or just pointless. You didn't even fix the problem with marauder what this thread is all about.
On April 05 2010 09:56 Rothbardian wrote: As I said before, if you nerf Marauders, you better buff Tanks, or nerf Roaches and Immortals. Along with that, I would like the Thor's 250MM cannons increased to range 7, so as enough to counter Immortals (somewhat), and allow for Collo micro to take them down.
My hypothetical patch for Terran:
Marauder -
• HP reduced by 10 • Price increased to 30 Gas from 25 Gas • Tech Lab build time increased to 30 seconds • Base Armor 0
Marine -
• Changed build time from 25 seconds to 20 seconds
Crucio Siege Tank -
• HP increased by 10 • Armor increased by 1 • Build time reduced to 45 seconds • Gas cost reduced to 100 • Unsiege Damage changed from 15+10 Armored, Attack: Normal, to 15, Attack: Fast • Siege and Unsiege animations changed from 4 seconds to 3 seconds • Supply cost changed from 3 to 2
Thor -
• 250 MM Cannon ability range increased to 7
Reactor -
• Time to build decreased to 40 seconds
Supply Drop -
• Mechanic changed from 50 Energy +8 Supply to 30 Energy, +6 Supply, +1 Armor, +50 HP
Hellion -
• Mineral price reduced to 80 • Fixed Animation so as to allow 'Vulture' Micro
Mule -
• Mechanic changed from 50 Energy 90 Seconds, to 25 Energy, 30 Seconds
Banshee -
• Damage changed from 12x2 to 10x2 • HP reduced from 140 to 125
Viking -
• Base Armor changed from 0 to 1 • Flying to Ground Animation changed from 3 seconds to 1 second • Mineral Price changed from 150 to 125
Misc -
• Engineering Bay can now lift off • SCV HP increased to 50 • Bunkers base load increased to 5 • Bunkers HP increased to 450 from 400 • Ghost Academy moved to Tier 2 • EMP Radius now 1.5 • Ghost HP reduced to 65 from 100 • Ghost price reduced from 150 Mineral 150 Gas to 125 Mineral 100 Gas • Reaper scrapped • Factory price changed from 150 Gas to 100 Gas • New Highground Mechanic: Units on low ground now have sight of high ground units. High Ground advantage: Units on low ground damage reduced by 30%.
That sums up about the gist of balance changes needed to Terran to make both bio and mech available.
Does not change the Fact Marauders are OP due to them being good VS there counter Zealots and Zerglings
Think 25 is better then 20 before it was way to many rines if they unnerf the reactor and nerf the maraudar should work out good
Hard to buff the tank when it is allready very stronge support unit. problem with mech is not the tank or the hellion its the thor being so shitty as a front line unit to be the meat to back them up. WTB cobra back.
Gimick that would be used vs colo only. But thor is a shiity unit anyways and should just be removed go go cobra. Or if it stays better to just increase its normal range not its worthless spell.
Ya should be change back to what it was or lower. 2 nerfs to marins was way to much and discourages unit mix. When also nerfing medvac,viks and hellion timing hars psuh w/e.
would not make a differnce still would not be used and any bust would still get thro and be little more then a gimick. not going to use it early when you can allready hold everything with a few scv's and you would have to give up a mule.
allready cheap and good for most part and i don't get the fix Animation thing its allready easy to macro /shrug no idea what it means.
Why change mule when it works good as it is ?
Nerf to banshess dmg ummm y ? Not OP and very easy to counter. HP change in last patch i would revert but see why they did it now that fix defence AA rape them quick.
and for the misc you want to make it so terran can turtle more easy .... ya not needed. You want to scrap reapers y ? god harsment unit not op easy to counter good for late game scouting and messing with expansions etc. Then you want to nerf the ghost to hell y. When marauder is fixed we will need it. allready in late game its a tiny bit in favor of the toss.
Like i said most this stuff just cause other problems or just pointless. You didn't even fix the problem with marauder what this thread is all about.
Could you please be more lucid in your next post. Tanks, are not supposed to be a support unit, they are supposed to be the main Mech unit. Hellions are supposed to be the 'meat' unit to tanks, like the Vulture was in SC I. As for the Thor ability, it rocks Immortals.
MULE's are too strong right now. Try a Macro-oriented play, and see the ridiculousness that is MULE. I suspect once more Terrans actually play macro-oriented that MULE OP will become much more common. Supply Drop Mechanic is nigh worthless right now, because of the MULE.
If you would read my post you can see why I want to scrap reapers. It's a redundant un-needed unit. One-dimensional units should not exist.
Also nerfing Marauder HP and Armor, and increasing price + time to get is a huge help to Protoss, and with Mech buff, would be a more viable route against Roach (I would assume they will nerf the Roach in accordance). You want to know the best counter to Marauders? Mass Roaches.
3/3 Roach with Hive upgrade is ridiculous. Beyond ridiculous. Play Sauron Zerg with Roach its unbelievable....
I stick to the usual supposed nerf for marauder, remove stim. Stim is really the only thing that makes them too extreme.
Again does not fix the problem they still have no counter and would kill end game fights for terran.
Just need to make the units that are made to counter them counter them make them immune to there slow win. easy simple.
The unit is overpowered, let just make a ridiculous counter is how we got into this predicament in the first place.
How would it kill end game fights as terran? Removing stim imo would be a great fix. Marauders need stim to remain competitive in DPS. Their role as slowing and help marines versus armored is great. By reducing their damage, marines would have to be made to support them. This both gives the build a "skillcounter" through AoE damage and balances out marauders so they're not as ridiculous. A slight hp nerf would be cool too, the idea of a golaith HP t1 terran infantry unit is kind of dumb.
3/3 Roach with Hive upgrade is ridiculous. Beyond ridiculous. Play Sauron Zerg with Roach its unbelievable....
Yeah, but thats ridiculously lategame. And it doesn't work nearly as well anymore, they nerfed the HP regen thing.
I stick to the usual supposed nerf for marauder, remove stim. Stim is really the only thing that makes them too extreme.
Again does not fix the problem they still have no counter and would kill end game fights for terran.
Just need to make the units that are made to counter them counter them make them immune to there slow win. easy simple.
The unit is overpowered, let just make a ridiculous counter is how we got into this predicament in the first place.
How would it kill end game fights as terran? Removing stim imo would be a great fix. Marauders need stim to remain competitive in DPS. Their role as slowing and help marines versus armored is great. By reducing their damage, marines would have to be made to support them. This both gives the build a "skillcounter" through AoE damage and balances out marauders so they're not as ridiculous. A slight hp nerf would be cool too, the idea of a golaith HP t1 terran infantry unit is kind of dumb.
3/3 Roach with Hive upgrade is ridiculous. Beyond ridiculous. Play Sauron Zerg with Roach its unbelievable....
Yeah, but thats ridiculously lategame. And it doesn't work nearly as well anymore, they nerfed the HP regen thing.
It's not that late-game. 20 minutes isn't that 'late'. Yeah, they nerfed the Hive regen, but it's still really good, besides even discounting the regen, 3/3 Roach is unbelievable by itself, especially with speed upgrade + creep. 5 Armor, 22 damage, and 145HP for a unit that is 1 supply and only cost 75/25...with 2-3 Queens and 4 Hatch....
The issue is that terran can pump them like theres no tomorrow! Like, Terrans have twice the size of an army that Protoss's have, but its all marauders.. Which marauders pretty much counter EVERY protoss ground unit before collosus. Immortals are actually quite worthless vs them, as im finding out now (well I quit ladder tonight til patch, its too lame).. I would have a very fast/versatile immortals/stalkers/sentry army and lose to pure marauder, cause he is just pumping out of 3rax so fast, way faster than I can keep up my immortal count, which are nessisary for dealing damage to marauders as Stalkers/sentries dont damage them at all. Zealots are too slow and just get owned, even tho zeals are suppose to be their counter. Once terran gets EMP, its not even a challenge anymore.
If they make the cost significantly more, and take away how high of damage they do, it'll work it balanced. Right now the only reason terrans do anything other than Marauder is to stop air. Its gotten to that point.
The worst part is, If you try to tech as protoss or zerg, into some air unit or some high up spellcaster (HT/infestors), then any smart terran will just kill you before you even get there because they are so cheap they can be pumped from 3rax almost instantly.
On April 04 2010 19:07 lew wrote: Make terran mech more usefull and I agree with a marauders nerf. If you give terran now a marrauder nerf without buffing the mech, then there is not much left for terrans, think about that.
I agree with this. If maruaders were nerfed, TvP/TvZ would become hopeless.
I think it's true that maruaders are too good compared to other terran units. I also agree that maruaders are ridiculously strong against any heavy ground unit, and are a little too useful in the first few minutes of the game against zealots. However, (in tvp) after an immortal is out marauders are essentially countered. The real problem for me is that nothing seems viable in TvP besides mass bio, and then you end up in stupid ghost vs temp fights. It would make sense to me to do something like making slow effect an upgrade, but buffing mech. This would make maruaders just as useful in the long run, but make them not overpowered in the early game, and simultaneously allow for more terran army diversity in the form of more mech usage.
I also agree. I feel like TvP and TvZ is already hopeless, at least for lower level players that don't have the APM/skill to deal with a fast baneling bust or a fast immortal push. When I play TvP, I honestly wish I really could mech instead of getting massive amounts of marauders. But that's just NOT realistic. 1 Immortal > 5 siege tanks, EZPZ.
I stick to the usual supposed nerf for marauder, remove stim. Stim is really the only thing that makes them too extreme.
Again does not fix the problem they still have no counter and would kill end game fights for terran.
Just need to make the units that are made to counter them counter them make them immune to there slow win. easy simple.
The unit is overpowered, let just make a ridiculous counter is how we got into this predicament in the first place.
How would it kill end game fights as terran? Removing stim imo would be a great fix. Marauders need stim to remain competitive in DPS. Their role as slowing and help marines versus armored is great. By reducing their damage, marines would have to be made to support them. This both gives the build a "skillcounter" through AoE damage and balances out marauders so they're not as ridiculous. A slight hp nerf would be cool too, the idea of a golaith HP t1 terran infantry unit is kind of dumb.
3/3 Roach with Hive upgrade is ridiculous. Beyond ridiculous. Play Sauron Zerg with Roach its unbelievable....
Yeah, but thats ridiculously lategame. And it doesn't work nearly as well anymore, they nerfed the HP regen thing.
It's not that late-game. 20 minutes isn't that 'late'. Yeah, they nerfed the Hive regen, but it's still really good.
Well the fact that upgraded, roaches beat a unit which does as much DPS to it as a carrier for 100/25 kinda supports my point.
On April 05 2010 11:33 Teejing wrote: I would like to see following changes:
marauders armor type become bio and armored
I think those changes would improve almost every matchups.
The Marauder is already biological and armored...
EDIT: I think that the Marauder is overshadowing the Marine in terms of DPS. Once that a Marauder is stimmed, it just dishes out a lot of damage when it should just be created to complement your Marines with the slow support. In my opinion, decreasing its overall DPS will cure the problem. This is through: a) Decreasing attack speed. b) Decreasing attack damage.
sc2 needs to be complately reworked the game should be about skill and intelligence, not the consistent massing of one unitand/or the existance of hard counters the game should have a LOT mor soft counters and no hard counters(with a few exceptions like dts and other desperation/cheese units)
On April 05 2010 11:33 Teejing wrote: I would like to see following changes:
marauders armor type become bio and armored
I think those changes would improve almost every matchups.
The Marauder is already biological and armored...
EDIT: I think that the Marauder is overshadowing the Marine in terms of DPS. Once that a Marauder is stimmed, it just dishes out a lot of damage when it should just be created to complement your Marines with the slow support. In my opinion, decreasing its overall DPS will cure the problem. This is through: a) Decreasing attack speed. b) Decreasing attack damage.
Rine do more dps on None armored targets like it should then marauders .... When marauder stim and rine stim still the same thing rine does more dps.
Decreasing the attack speed and dmg would do nothing to fix the problem where Marauders are mass cause they can kite the units that counter them. Changing these things would do nothing to fix that.
Let me explain something about "Hardcounters". I'm tempted to make a new thread, nobody seems to get it.
SC2 is not about hardcounters any more then SC1 was. The metagame is still volatile, a formulaic build is still being developed, so your going to see a lot of fights ending because of "hardcounters".
Was MM hardcountered by storms and reavers in SC1? You betcha. Thats an entire tech option/alternative, hardcountered by 1/2 units.
Their isn't even a definable difference between a hardcounter and a normal counter. Only counter and softcounter. No hardcounters.
Counters encourage things. The hardcounter to mass light units is aoe, so it encourages AoE. Is this a good thing? Many would say yes, yes is agreeable.
That is all they do. Bios hardcounter encourages mech. etc etc. They shape the metagame, and through feedback and patching, the game itself.
What do roaches encourage? A lot of things, outlined in my post, and most of them aren't good by any stretch of the imagination.
I stick to the usual supposed nerf for marauder, remove stim. Stim is really the only thing that makes them too extreme.
Again does not fix the problem they still have no counter and would kill end game fights for terran.
Just need to make the units that are made to counter them counter them make them immune to there slow win. easy simple.
The unit is overpowered, let just make a ridiculous counter is how we got into this predicament in the first place.
How would it kill end game fights as terran? Removing stim imo would be a great fix. Marauders need stim to remain competitive in DPS. Their role as slowing and help marines versus armored is great. By reducing their damage, marines would have to be made to support them. This both gives the build a "skillcounter" through AoE damage and balances out marauders so they're not as ridiculous. A slight hp nerf would be cool too, the idea of a golaith HP t1 terran infantry unit is kind of dumb.
3/3 Roach with Hive upgrade is ridiculous. Beyond ridiculous. Play Sauron Zerg with Roach its unbelievable....
Yeah, but thats ridiculously lategame. And it doesn't work nearly as well anymore, they nerfed the HP regen thing.
It would kill its dps way to much and it would cause stimed packs of MM to split up cause pathing issuse. As it is right now only reason you don't see the mixing of Marines and marauders right is cause the marauders have no counter early game the ones that are made by blizzard to counter them zerglings and zealots are kited due to the slow. So why make marines when there is no counter to the marauders ?
As it stances right now rines do more dmg VS light targets stimed and unstimed then marauders. As soon as you make the Zealots and zerglings a threat to them no more kiting and you will need the rines in background to deal the dmg to kill off the threat.
Also this would not even fix the problem you would still get terran 3 raxing and spaming marauder so what if they do not have stim. Still no counter coming early game any zealot made is a waste and stalkers are weak to marauders. Way to not even solve the problem lol
On April 05 2010 13:12 xnub wrote: Marauders are mass cause they can kite the units that counter them. Changing these things would do nothing to fix that.
I see. So that's why people have been throwing around "Remove stim" in this thread. Decreasing the attack range suddenly popped into my head since it would reduce their capability to kite units effectively.
On April 05 2010 09:56 Rothbardian wrote: As I said before, if you nerf Marauders, you better buff Tanks, or nerf Roaches and Immortals. Along with that, I would like the Thor's 250MM cannons increased to range 7, so as enough to counter Immortals (somewhat), and allow for Collo micro to take them down.
My hypothetical patch for Terran:
Marauder -
• HP reduced by 10 • Price increased to 30 Gas from 25 Gas • Tech Lab build time increased to 30 seconds • Base Armor 0
Marine -
• Changed build time from 25 seconds to 20 seconds
Crucio Siege Tank -
• HP increased by 10 • Armor increased by 1 • Build time reduced to 45 seconds • Gas cost reduced to 100 • Unsiege Damage changed from 15+10 Armored, Attack: Normal, to 15, Attack: Fast • Siege and Unsiege animations changed from 4 seconds to 3 seconds • Supply cost changed from 3 to 2
Thor -
• 250 MM Cannon ability range increased to 7
Reactor -
• Time to build decreased to 40 seconds
Supply Drop -
• Mechanic changed from 50 Energy +8 Supply to 30 Energy, +6 Supply, +1 Armor, +50 HP
Hellion -
• Mineral price reduced to 80 • Fixed Animation so as to allow 'Vulture' Micro
Mule -
• Mechanic changed from 50 Energy 90 Seconds, to 25 Energy, 30 Seconds
Banshee -
• Damage changed from 12x2 to 10x2 • HP reduced from 140 to 125
Viking -
• Base Armor changed from 0 to 1 • Flying to Ground Animation changed from 3 seconds to 1 second • Mineral Price changed from 150 to 125
Misc -
• Engineering Bay can now lift off • SCV HP increased to 50 • Bunkers base load increased to 5 • Bunkers HP increased to 450 from 400 • Ghost Academy moved to Tier 2 • EMP Radius now 1.5 • Ghost HP reduced to 65 from 100 • Ghost price reduced from 150 Mineral 150 Gas to 125 Mineral 100 Gas • Reaper scrapped • Factory price changed from 150 Gas to 100 Gas • New Highground Mechanic: Units on low ground now have sight of high ground units. High Ground advantage: Units on low ground damage reduced by 30%.
That sums up about the gist of balance changes needed to Terran to make both bio and mech available.
Does not change the Fact Marauders are OP due to them being good VS there counter Zealots and Zerglings
Think 25 is better then 20 before it was way to many rines if they unnerf the reactor and nerf the maraudar should work out good
Hard to buff the tank when it is allready very stronge support unit. problem with mech is not the tank or the hellion its the thor being so shitty as a front line unit to be the meat to back them up. WTB cobra back.
Gimick that would be used vs colo only. But thor is a shiity unit anyways and should just be removed go go cobra. Or if it stays better to just increase its normal range not its worthless spell.
Ya should be change back to what it was or lower. 2 nerfs to marins was way to much and discourages unit mix. When also nerfing medvac,viks and hellion timing hars psuh w/e.
would not make a differnce still would not be used and any bust would still get thro and be little more then a gimick. not going to use it early when you can allready hold everything with a few scv's and you would have to give up a mule.
allready cheap and good for most part and i don't get the fix Animation thing its allready easy to macro /shrug no idea what it means.
Why change mule when it works good as it is ?
Nerf to banshess dmg ummm y ? Not OP and very easy to counter. HP change in last patch i would revert but see why they did it now that fix defence AA rape them quick.
and for the misc you want to make it so terran can turtle more easy .... ya not needed. You want to scrap reapers y ? god harsment unit not op easy to counter good for late game scouting and messing with expansions etc. Then you want to nerf the ghost to hell y. When marauder is fixed we will need it. allready in late game its a tiny bit in favor of the toss.
Like i said most this stuff just cause other problems or just pointless. You didn't even fix the problem with marauder what this thread is all about.
Could you please be more lucid in your next post. Tanks, are not supposed to be a support unit, they are supposed to be the main Mech unit. Hellions are supposed to be the 'meat' unit to tanks, like the Vulture was in SC I. As for the Thor ability, it rocks Immortals.
The blizz team said they made tanks to be more of a support unit. thats why it kinda fits that role in sc2 more than the main muscle in the terran army. who are you to say what it should or should not be?
On April 05 2010 13:12 xnub wrote: Marauders are mass cause they can kite the units that counter them. Changing these things would do nothing to fix that.
I see. So that's why people have been throwing around "Remove stim" in this thread. Decreasing the attack range suddenly popped into my head since it would reduce their capability to kite units effectively.
can kite a zealot from 2 feet away doesn't matter what range you make it.
Really its very easy fix i don't know why people can't see it. Make them immune to slow terrans will be force to get a mix of marines to deal with the zealots/lingz early game problem solved.
No more marauder spam and you get units that counter them early game and late game.
Could you please be more lucid in your next post. Tanks, are not supposed to be a support unit, they are supposed to be the main Mech unit. Hellions are supposed to be the 'meat' unit to tanks, like the Vulture was in SC I. As for the Thor ability, it rocks Immortals.
Also nerfing Marauder HP and Armor, and increasing price + time to get is a huge help to Protoss, and with Mech buff, would be a more viable route against Roach (I would assume they will nerf the Roach in accordance). You want to know the best counter to Marauders? Mass Roaches.
Thing is Vulture with micro were good vs everything and could be the meat. hellions can't be the meat cause they suck vs roachs or stalkers even with micro. they can just ignore them and go right for tanks cause they do no dmg . Anything light and your fine. Other then that what meat ?
Also the Vulture was the main mech unit in SC. You could say it turns around late game and the tank becomes the main part of mech. because you can get massive amounts of tanks to blow shit up before it gets close just like it is now in SC2. Then if any air comes in you have many Goliaths to scare them off a fast long range AA unit that can be used at the front.
Tanks are 100 % a support unit untill you get so many they rock shit on the ground before they even get close. tanks can't stand alone. Support
Mass roachs counter marauders yaaaa no other way around. Nerfing the hp and armor and w/e else still does not fix the problem. Marauders kiteing the units that are made to counter them early game because of the slow. Then only thing left early game being the stalker, what the marauder is made to counter is the problem.
On April 05 2010 09:56 Rothbardian wrote: As I said before, if you nerf Marauders, you better buff Tanks, or nerf Roaches and Immortals. Along with that, I would like the Thor's 250MM cannons increased to range 7, so as enough to counter Immortals (somewhat), and allow for Collo micro to take them down.
My hypothetical patch for Terran:
Marauder -
• HP reduced by 10 • Price increased to 30 Gas from 25 Gas • Tech Lab build time increased to 30 seconds • Base Armor 0
Marine -
• Changed build time from 25 seconds to 20 seconds
Crucio Siege Tank -
• HP increased by 10 • Armor increased by 1 • Build time reduced to 45 seconds • Gas cost reduced to 100 • Unsiege Damage changed from 15+10 Armored, Attack: Normal, to 15, Attack: Fast • Siege and Unsiege animations changed from 4 seconds to 3 seconds • Supply cost changed from 3 to 2
Thor -
• 250 MM Cannon ability range increased to 7
Reactor -
• Time to build decreased to 40 seconds
Supply Drop -
• Mechanic changed from 50 Energy +8 Supply to 30 Energy, +6 Supply, +1 Armor, +50 HP
Hellion -
• Mineral price reduced to 80 • Fixed Animation so as to allow 'Vulture' Micro
Mule -
• Mechanic changed from 50 Energy 90 Seconds, to 25 Energy, 30 Seconds
Banshee -
• Damage changed from 12x2 to 10x2 • HP reduced from 140 to 125
Viking -
• Base Armor changed from 0 to 1 • Flying to Ground Animation changed from 3 seconds to 1 second • Mineral Price changed from 150 to 125
Misc -
• Engineering Bay can now lift off • SCV HP increased to 50 • Bunkers base load increased to 5 • Bunkers HP increased to 450 from 400 • Ghost Academy moved to Tier 2 • EMP Radius now 1.5 • Ghost HP reduced to 65 from 100 • Ghost price reduced from 150 Mineral 150 Gas to 125 Mineral 100 Gas • Reaper scrapped • Factory price changed from 150 Gas to 100 Gas • New Highground Mechanic: Units on low ground now have sight of high ground units. High Ground advantage: Units on low ground damage reduced by 30%.
That sums up about the gist of balance changes needed to Terran to make both bio and mech available.
Does not change the Fact Marauders are OP due to them being good VS there counter Zealots and Zerglings
Think 25 is better then 20 before it was way to many rines if they unnerf the reactor and nerf the maraudar should work out good
Hard to buff the tank when it is allready very stronge support unit. problem with mech is not the tank or the hellion its the thor being so shitty as a front line unit to be the meat to back them up. WTB cobra back.
Gimick that would be used vs colo only. But thor is a shiity unit anyways and should just be removed go go cobra. Or if it stays better to just increase its normal range not its worthless spell.
Ya should be change back to what it was or lower. 2 nerfs to marins was way to much and discourages unit mix. When also nerfing medvac,viks and hellion timing hars psuh w/e.
would not make a differnce still would not be used and any bust would still get thro and be little more then a gimick. not going to use it early when you can allready hold everything with a few scv's and you would have to give up a mule.
allready cheap and good for most part and i don't get the fix Animation thing its allready easy to macro /shrug no idea what it means.
Why change mule when it works good as it is ?
Nerf to banshess dmg ummm y ? Not OP and very easy to counter. HP change in last patch i would revert but see why they did it now that fix defence AA rape them quick.
and for the misc you want to make it so terran can turtle more easy .... ya not needed. You want to scrap reapers y ? god harsment unit not op easy to counter good for late game scouting and messing with expansions etc. Then you want to nerf the ghost to hell y. When marauder is fixed we will need it. allready in late game its a tiny bit in favor of the toss.
Like i said most this stuff just cause other problems or just pointless. You didn't even fix the problem with marauder what this thread is all about.
Could you please be more lucid in your next post. Tanks, are not supposed to be a support unit, they are supposed to be the main Mech unit. Hellions are supposed to be the 'meat' unit to tanks, like the Vulture was in SC I. As for the Thor ability, it rocks Immortals.
The blizz team said they made tanks to be more of a support unit. thats why it kinda fits that role in sc2 more than the main muscle in the terran army. who are you to say what it should or should not be?
For a unit that kills off your units more than the enemies via splash, it shouldn't be a support unit, because it doesn't fit that role. You don't see the Colossus splashing its own units, or Ultra's do you? Tank/Bio vs melee is bad, and you are better off just going straight bio. Besides, Tanks just make your army immobile, and in SC II that is very bad. If you are going to be Immobile you better be packing a punch, and tanks as support do not fill that, especially against Protoss, and even moreso against Zerg.
I wonder why we hardly see tanks.... :: rollseyes ::
On April 04 2010 19:07 lew wrote: Make terran mech more usefull and I agree with a marauders nerf. If you give terran now a marrauder nerf without buffing the mech, then there is not much left for terrans, think about that.
The reason why Mech units are used less than they should is that Marauders are too good to pass up on. For 100/25 you get a small and mobile unit which has only 25 hp less than a tank AND which has a slowing effect on enemy units AND which does bonus damage to armored (BUILDINGS). Thus it is very easy to get a super tough "dense ball of damage" to wreck an enemies base with. Ultralisks are fast at demolishing buildings too, but they are Tier 3.
The damage seems a little high, but Blizzard seems to reevaluate the bonus damage system anyways, so I would expect a change here.
The slowing is fine if you get rid of the "mass Marauders" (otherwise it would only be a tougher Marine that doesnt shoot air).
The hit points are too high, thus removing the need to get any mech units at all (brilliantly shown by the lack of Medivacs to heal the Marauders in many Terran armies). No SC1 Terran would simply mass Marines and Firebats and head out to destroy an enemies base ... without taking a few Medics as well.
Personally I would simply increase the build time for Marauders (currently only 5 seconds slower than the Marine after their build time got increased) and lower their hp by 25. That way they would still have a lot more hp compared to Marines, but you couldnt mass them that easily. Another way of nerfing Marauders is to make them move slow themselves (carrying a heavy rocket launcher should never leave you that mobile) thus making it easier to avoid them and it would be necessary to have Marines as well to catch up with those fleeing enemies the Marauder slowed. A rather drastic change would be removing Stimpack from Marauders, but Stimpack Marauders are really what makes them go "over the top" IMO.
Another reason for getting Marauders exclusively is the lack of attacking air units for at least a Protoss enemy. The Phoenix is nifty, but it is underused due to the necessary micro to deal any damage to ground units. Its damage is pretty low as well, because you need masses to do anything reasonably well. Lifting up Marauders or Roaches with a Phoenix and killing them that way would be a viable option if those two ground unit werent armored units and the Phoenix did 5+5 vs light damage. Changing that to a flat 10 damage would make it much more viable.
On April 05 2010 09:56 Rothbardian wrote: As I said before, if you nerf Marauders, you better buff Tanks, or nerf Roaches and Immortals. Along with that, I would like the Thor's 250MM cannons increased to range 7, so as enough to counter Immortals (somewhat), and allow for Collo micro to take them down.
My hypothetical patch for Terran:
Marauder -
• HP reduced by 10 • Price increased to 30 Gas from 25 Gas • Tech Lab build time increased to 30 seconds • Base Armor 0
Marine -
• Changed build time from 25 seconds to 20 seconds
Crucio Siege Tank -
• HP increased by 10 • Armor increased by 1 • Build time reduced to 45 seconds • Gas cost reduced to 100 • Unsiege Damage changed from 15+10 Armored, Attack: Normal, to 15, Attack: Fast • Siege and Unsiege animations changed from 4 seconds to 3 seconds • Supply cost changed from 3 to 2
Thor -
• 250 MM Cannon ability range increased to 7
Reactor -
• Time to build decreased to 40 seconds
Supply Drop -
• Mechanic changed from 50 Energy +8 Supply to 30 Energy, +6 Supply, +1 Armor, +50 HP
Hellion -
• Mineral price reduced to 80 • Fixed Animation so as to allow 'Vulture' Micro
Mule -
• Mechanic changed from 50 Energy 90 Seconds, to 25 Energy, 30 Seconds
Banshee -
• Damage changed from 12x2 to 10x2 • HP reduced from 140 to 125
Viking -
• Base Armor changed from 0 to 1 • Flying to Ground Animation changed from 3 seconds to 1 second • Mineral Price changed from 150 to 125
Misc -
• Engineering Bay can now lift off • SCV HP increased to 50 • Bunkers base load increased to 5 • Bunkers HP increased to 450 from 400 • Ghost Academy moved to Tier 2 • EMP Radius now 1.5 • Ghost HP reduced to 65 from 100 • Ghost price reduced from 150 Mineral 150 Gas to 125 Mineral 100 Gas • Reaper scrapped • Factory price changed from 150 Gas to 100 Gas • New Highground Mechanic: Units on low ground now have sight of high ground units. High Ground advantage: Units on low ground damage reduced by 30%.
That sums up about the gist of balance changes needed to Terran to make both bio and mech available.
Does not change the Fact Marauders are OP due to them being good VS there counter Zealots and Zerglings
Think 25 is better then 20 before it was way to many rines if they unnerf the reactor and nerf the maraudar should work out good
Hard to buff the tank when it is allready very stronge support unit. problem with mech is not the tank or the hellion its the thor being so shitty as a front line unit to be the meat to back them up. WTB cobra back.
Gimick that would be used vs colo only. But thor is a shiity unit anyways and should just be removed go go cobra. Or if it stays better to just increase its normal range not its worthless spell.
Ya should be change back to what it was or lower. 2 nerfs to marins was way to much and discourages unit mix. When also nerfing medvac,viks and hellion timing hars psuh w/e.
would not make a differnce still would not be used and any bust would still get thro and be little more then a gimick. not going to use it early when you can allready hold everything with a few scv's and you would have to give up a mule.
allready cheap and good for most part and i don't get the fix Animation thing its allready easy to macro /shrug no idea what it means.
Why change mule when it works good as it is ?
Nerf to banshess dmg ummm y ? Not OP and very easy to counter. HP change in last patch i would revert but see why they did it now that fix defence AA rape them quick.
and for the misc you want to make it so terran can turtle more easy .... ya not needed. You want to scrap reapers y ? god harsment unit not op easy to counter good for late game scouting and messing with expansions etc. Then you want to nerf the ghost to hell y. When marauder is fixed we will need it. allready in late game its a tiny bit in favor of the toss.
Like i said most this stuff just cause other problems or just pointless. You didn't even fix the problem with marauder what this thread is all about.
Could you please be more lucid in your next post. Tanks, are not supposed to be a support unit, they are supposed to be the main Mech unit. Hellions are supposed to be the 'meat' unit to tanks, like the Vulture was in SC I. As for the Thor ability, it rocks Immortals.
The blizz team said they made tanks to be more of a support unit. thats why it kinda fits that role in sc2 more than the main muscle in the terran army. who are you to say what it should or should not be?
For a unit that kills off your units more than the enemies via splash, it shouldn't be a support unit, because it doesn't fit that role. You don't see the Colossus splashing its own units, or Ultra's do you? Tank/Bio vs melee is bad, and you are better off just going straight bio. Besides, Tanks just make your army immobile, and in SC II that is very bad. If you are going to be Immobile you better be packing a punch, and tanks as support do not fill that, especially against Protoss, and even moreso against Zerg.
I wonder why we hardly see tanks.... :: rollseyes ::
/shrug its there weakness just like colo get raped by shit that hits air only or air. All support has there weakness in some way.
Also you still see many people use tanks and bio you just need micro the tank to shoot back and in big battles they are 10000x worth it. Also rine + tanks is a good zerg strat. Not to mention they rape hydras when hydras are super stronge vs bio with a roachs meat shield.
On April 04 2010 19:07 lew wrote: Make terran mech more usefull and I agree with a marauders nerf. If you give terran now a marrauder nerf without buffing the mech, then there is not much left for terrans, think about that.
The reason why Mech units are used less than they should is that Marauders are too good to pass up on. For 100/25 you get a small and mobile unit which has only 25 hp less than a tank AND which has a slowing effect on enemy units AND which does bonus damage to armored (BUILDINGS). Thus it is very easy to get a super tough "dense ball of damage" to wreck an enemies base with. Ultralisks are fast at demolishing buildings too, but they are Tier 3.
The damage seems a little high, but Blizzard seems to reevaluate the bonus damage system anyways, so I would expect a change here.
The slowing is fine if you get rid of the "mass Marauders" (otherwise it would only be a tougher Marine that doesnt shoot air).
The hit points are too high, thus removing the need to get any mech units at all (brilliantly shown by the lack of Medivacs to heal the Marauders in many Terran armies). No SC1 Terran would simply mass Marines and Firebats and head out to destroy an enemies base ... without taking a few Medics as well.
Personally I would simply increase the build time for Marauders (currently only 5 seconds slower than the Marine after their build time got increased) and lower their hp by 25. That way they would still have a lot more hp compared to Marines, but you couldnt mass them that easily. Another way of nerfing Marauders is to make them move slow themselves (carrying a heavy rocket launcher should never leave you that mobile) thus making it easier to avoid them and it would be necessary to have Marines as well to catch up with those fleeing enemies the Marauder slowed.
Another reason for getting Marauders exclusively is the lack of attacking air units for at least a Protoss enemy. The Phoenix is nifty, but it is underused due to the necessary micro to deal any damage to ground units. Its damage is pretty low as well, because you need masses to do anything reasonably well. Lifting up Marauders or Roaches with a Phoenix and killing them that way would be a viable option if those two ground unit werent armored units and the Phoenix did 5+5 vs light damage. Changing that to a flat 10 damage would make it much more viable.
Again this would not fix the problem with marauders. You people seem not to read or understand the problem with them. Also i don't know but i see tanks used ALOT they are the only part of mech that is in the right spot right now. TvT thats like all you build is tanks cause they rape MM to bits. TvZ crazy good for killing those hydras that rape your MM. Only toss you can't go mech cause immortals rape anything mech.
On April 05 2010 14:23 xnub wrote: Only toss you can't go mech cause immortals rape anything mech.
Ummm ... Ghost?
On April 05 2010 14:23 xnub wrote: Also i don't know but i see tanks used ALOT they are the only part of mech that is in the right spot right now. TvT thats like all you build is tanks cause they rape MM to bits.
Funny how I hardly ever see that in TvT in the replays I watch. Most is Marauders and sometimes only Marauders.
On April 05 2010 13:54 Rothbardian wrote: Besides, Tanks just make your army immobile, and in SC II that is very bad. If you are going to be Immobile you better be packing a punch, and tanks as support do not fill that, especially against Protoss, and even moreso against Zerg.
IMO the "SC2 requires mobility" comes more from the expectations of the players (who like charging in and busting stuff too much it seems) than from failures of the game. People simply havent gotten into the habit of playing a long containment game.
Simple solution seems to be nerfing the immortal's damage bonus while nerfing the marauder and the roach in tandem so that things aren't left off-balance even more-so than they already are. Then-again, i'm not so sure roaches would run away with the show if they got the lightest hits from the nerf-bat. Roaches have recieved a few small nerfs and seems to be managable now without marauders and immortals (though in both situations it's certainly easier to use those units). I think some of the immortal-fear is a little hyperbolic, but i don't really find immortals to be the only toss answer to mech, just a really good one.
Everyone should check out the othe thread about these three units, it's got a lot more discussion and less racial bickering.
We all know what the issue is, it's the dam slow it's too good, too fast, too easily. The fact that they can stim just makes it worse, any time when you have a slow with no reproductions in fact alot of benefits as the marauder isn't bad dps it has a auto slow in it's attack i'm surprised no one though that would be a bad idea in sc2. I mean it's one thing to have a slow as a cast but to have it as the attack on a unit that can do dmg and can gain bonus speed to run away and kite is just all bad.
stim need to be removed like the op suggested or the slow time needs to be shorted or the slow needs to be reworked to not affect some units preferably all units that aren't armored imo making marauders more of counter armor like the tank not really an all purpose unit. or making the slow a research at teir 2 or increase the cost of marauders, which i find the most interesting a little more gas or something and it could open up terrans to using tanks a bit more as the cost benefit would be smaller using mass marauders. or just get rid of the slow and really rework murderers
On April 05 2010 14:23 xnub wrote: Also i don't know but i see tanks used ALOT they are the only part of mech that is in the right spot right now. TvT thats like all you build is tanks cause they rape MM to bits.
Funny how I hardly ever see that in TvT in the replays I watch. Most is Marauders and sometimes only Marauders.
Then you are not going pure mech ? and also even with ghost emp immortals with mix of units still rape tanks. Mostly cause hellions only do good VS zealots so not much of a meat shield for tanks.
Then you don't watch many replays ? Started out with tanks and viks in most videos then when people found out the SCV bug was all spam marines and SCV and send them out with each other. Then now back to going tanks/viks tanks rape all on ground and viks rape the skies. Then you would see some go viks/ banshess.
On April 05 2010 14:23 xnub wrote: Only toss you can't go mech cause immortals rape anything mech.
Ummm ... Ghost?
On April 05 2010 14:23 xnub wrote: Also i don't know but i see tanks used ALOT they are the only part of mech that is in the right spot right now. TvT thats like all you build is tanks cause they rape MM to bits.
Funny how I hardly ever see that in TvT in the replays I watch. Most is Marauders and sometimes only Marauders.
Then you are not going pure mech ? and also even with ghost emp immortals with mix of units still rape tanks. Mostly cause hellions only do good VS zealots so not much of a meat shield for tanks.
Then you don't watch many replays ? Started out with tanks and viks in most videos then when people found out the SCV bug was all spam marines and SCV and send them out with each other. Then now back to going tanks/viks tanks rape all on ground and viks rape the skies. Then you would see some go viks/ banshess.
lol I think we can make an exception for ghosts in pure mech.
On April 05 2010 13:54 Rothbardian wrote: Besides, Tanks just make your army immobile, and in SC II that is very bad. If you are going to be Immobile you better be packing a punch, and tanks as support do not fill that, especially against Protoss, and even moreso against Zerg.
IMO the "SC2 requires mobility" comes more from the expectations of the players (who like charging in and busting stuff too much it seems) than from failures of the game. People simply havent gotten into the habit of playing a long containment game.
People don't contain because there is no reason not to simply attack. Units are too powerful on their own to need to hold position before attacking. This is NOT a player-side issue and is a design issue. Rothbartian is correct in saying that immobility is an even bigger handicap in Starcraft 2 than in Starcraft 1, and mech is simply not worth the cost. I've seen Roach/Hydralisk armies and mech armies demolish one another, except the Terran is nearly broke while the Zerg cannot spend resources faster than it gathers.
On April 05 2010 15:47 hacpee wrote: Marauders need to die in one storm if they are stimmed.IIRC, they can stim and get stormed and STILL survive.
No, I think they should be able to survive at least one storm. What they should NOT do, however, is kill a Nexus in 3 volleys in a group of 20 or so.
If they don't stim, they should survive a storm. Stim them and they should die in one storm, esp with the 45% storm area reduction from the last patch.
I haven't read the entire thread yet, but what about Marauders only slowing when they hit life points (ie: not Protoss' shields). That would let Zealots get in closer to have a chance at doing some actual damage. And with charge they would be able to catch up when Marauders are micro'd away. Plus a buff to mech, like everyone said (and/or nerf to Immortal). Obviously this doesn't affect TvZ, but Roaches are too good ATM for Marauders to get a vZ nerf.
All units above Tier 1 require some sort of damage and health nerf and more impediments to massing early, such as build time increase, gas cost increase, or supply cost increase.
On April 05 2010 14:47 semantics wrote: just get rid of the slow and really rework murderers
that's all i can think of so far.
How about making it an autocastable ability while giving the Marauder limited energy?
This is actually a pretty reasonable suggestion. Imagine something like 20 energy per pop. Of course you could turn off the autocast if you wanted to save and prevent wasted shots.
On April 05 2010 15:53 tofucake wrote: I haven't read the entire thread yet, but what about Marauders only slowing when they hit life points (ie: not Protoss' shields). That would let Zealots get in closer to have a chance at doing some actual damage. And with charge they would be able to catch up when Marauders are micro'd away. Plus a buff to mech, like everyone said (and/or nerf to Immortal). Obviously this doesn't affect TvZ, but Roaches are too good ATM for Marauders to get a vZ nerf.
Anyone who agrees with the comments about how Marauders need stim otherwise they'd lag behind stimmed marines need to play Protoss for a few games.
**Sarcasm** IMO upgrading Zealot speed should also upgrade the speed of ever other gateway unit such that when I move them they all move together. My sentrys in my Stalker ball always move to slow, and once I get Speedlots my Zealots out run my army. Call a WAMBULANCE **End Sarcasm**
Just put ur Marines on 1 Keybind and your Marauders on another. Your Marauders are supposed to tank for you, so essentially you only need the speed from stim to micro your Marines back and forth out of harms way.
Bottom line: Marauder's slow should be removed, nerfed or changed. No unit in the game is as overpowered as Marauders, even Roaches one of the most known OP units has less range and doesn't slow. Plus Zerg can't effectively counter Immortals since they don't have EMP.
Here's an idea, make it like the Footman Shields in War3. Toggling it should have a 5-10s CD, with it on your Marauders move slow and slow, with it off they move normally, but don't slow. This way you can turn it on to slow incomming enemy units, but you can't getaway once they are on top of you.
I understand why Terran feels that Mech Units are soo weak against Protoss and love hating on the Immortal. It's due to collateral damage from Protoss building Immortals to counter your Marauders. The Toss player builds a bunch of Immortals and essentially invalidates your option to go Mech leaving you building only bio. Make immortals counter what they are supposed to counter in TvP/PvT: Mech units, and Grounded Vikings. Simply reduce the health damage and cost of Marauders, and change them to Light units. IE Marines with Rocket Launchers.
This would also help TvT as Hellions would have a chance to shine vs Terran Bio. This would make anti-massing tech AKA: Colossi and Storm effective to counter bio, leaving protoss with a viable route to counter MMM terrans, while still giving MMM terrans an out, via Vikings vs Colossi and EMP vs Templars.
I'd be all for getting rid of damage altogether on the marauder, make the slow AoE (Give them another spell, like, gasp spider mine thats upgradeable) and give Terran stronger tanks.
On April 05 2010 16:31 Railz wrote: I'd be all for getting rid of damage altogether on the marauder, make the slow AoE (Give them another spell, like, gasp spider mine thats upgradeable) and give Terran stronger tanks.
So turn the Marauder into a spellcaster? I hope you're being sarcastic.
On April 05 2010 16:50 Lunchbox wrote: How about: Give the marauder attack to the hellion, same effect and everything. Give the hellion attack to marauder which brings back the firebat.
I'd be happy. It would give the hellion a lot more use. Also, the firebat wouldn't be overused like the marauder now.
P.S. Barely read anything in this topic, sorry if it was mentioned before.
then it's basically sc bw again but T has to get factory to fight roaches.
On April 05 2010 16:50 Lunchbox wrote: How about: Give the marauder attack to the hellion, same effect and everything. Give the hellion attack to marauder which brings back the firebat.
I'd be happy. It would give the hellion a lot more use. Also, the firebat wouldn't be overused like the marauder now.
P.S. Barely read anything in this topic, sorry if it was mentioned before.
then it's basically sc bw again but T has to get factory to fight roaches.
then it's basically sc bw again but T has to get factory to fight roaches.
Oh NOES, that's just plain unfair. A race has to tech up to combat roaches...no other race has that issue, right? Oh wait...Protoss has to build Immortals from a Robo Facility...shit I guess there goes game balance and fairness.
The way I see it, Marauders/Roaches/Immortals are just crazy invasive species that really have no place in this game. Immortals make mech retarded, so Terran is forced to mass marauders, which are good against every single freaking Protoss unit anyway. Roaches are also ridiculous so Terran is forced to mass Marauder vs Zerg too. Then Protoss has to make Immortals to stop Roaches, which makes the game ridiculously stale.
On April 05 2010 16:31 Railz wrote: I'd be all for getting rid of damage altogether on the marauder, make the slow AoE (Give them another spell, like, gasp spider mine thats upgradeable) and give Terran stronger tanks.
So turn the Marauder into a spellcaster? I hope you're being sarcastic.
Something of the sorts. I'm under no illusion that zerg are in dire need of another offensive spell caster. Yet, as it stands right now, The protoss have essentially 3, Sentries, HTs, Mothership(s). Terran have 2, and we'll say that Zerg have 1 since the Queen is a defensive caster. Making a spell caster out of the Marauder would be similar to the sentry in having an early game caster.
On April 05 2010 16:31 Railz wrote: I'd be all for getting rid of damage altogether on the marauder, make the slow AoE (Give them another spell, like, gasp spider mine thats upgradeable) and give Terran stronger tanks.
So turn the Marauder into a spellcaster? I hope you're being sarcastic.
Something of the sorts. I'm under no illusion that zerg are in dire need of another offensive spell caster. Yet, as it stands right now, The protoss have essentially 3, Sentries, HTs, Mothership(s). Terran have 2, and we'll say that Zerg have 1 since the Queen is a defensive caster. Making a spell caster out of the Marauder would be similar to the sentry in having an early game caster.
Except this spellcaster is unwarranted and superfluous. All you're doing is giving Terran Time Bomb from the old Mothership IN COMBINATION with Spider Mines.
Also, mass Time Bomb + couple of Hunter Seeker Missiles + Spider Mines. Think about it.
Worse, it replaces an undoubtedly integral unit in the Terran force.
To reiterate: before you say something, think about it.
So zealots hard counters marines early and focuses the T to wall in and bunker if P go fast zealots and that so fine right?
But then T gets a unit that counters zealots and thats ju so overpowered because the P just cant mass 1-2 units and win anylonger... allow me to laugh out LOUD :D
The FACT is P has HARD counters for every single T unit there is! Colossi>all T bio Immortal>all T mech Stalkers/void rays>all T air
So basicly the only choice for a T to win against an equaly skilled P opponent is to go fast marauders and hope then P player is retarded enough not to use any sentrys,'
Sure I think its wrong but the sollution isnt to nerf the marauder, its not actually nerf protoss overall! Nerf the living shit out of immortals! Remove shield or remove bonus dmg, either you get a durable unit against T mech or the other way you get a glass cannon that can rape all T mech if microed.
Then nerf the colossi to the ground, then we can nerf the marauders because now T can actually use marines and tanks.
I've just suddenly thought, people say it's unfair that marauders and zerglings are not as powerful and find it hard to take out a marauder.
Well, the difference I can see purely off the bat is the marauder costs gas, surely it should be able to stand it's own against a zergling and a zealot?
On April 05 2010 18:02 Kylig wrote: The FACT is P has HARD counters for every single T unit there is! Colossi>all T bio Immortal>all T mech Stalkers/void rays>all T air
Yes on colossi but also psi storm would been acceptable Def yes on immortals No on stalkers and void rays. Vikings pwn void rays, and cost to cost Banshee own stalkers Carriers are true counter to all air units. Even vikings so called counters get decimated by them.
On April 05 2010 18:02 Kylig wrote: The FACT is P has HARD counters for every single T unit there is! Colossi>all T bio Immortal>all T mech Stalkers/void rays>all T air
Yes Colossus is good vs bio but ONLY if you have a good ground army composition with it. It's not a problem like with Terran that can just mass 1 all-purpose unit.
Nerfing Protoss completely as you say does NO GOOD. Protoss is doing the worst right now anyway.
On April 05 2010 18:02 Kylig wrote: So zealots hard counters marines early and focuses the T to wall in and bunker if P go fast zealots and that so fine right?
But then T gets a unit that counters zealots and thats ju so overpowered because the P just cant mass 1-2 units and win anylonger... allow me to laugh out LOUD :D
The FACT is P has HARD counters for every single T unit there is! Colossi>all T bio Immortal>all T mech Stalkers/void rays>all T air
So basicly the only choice for a T to win against an equaly skilled P opponent is to go fast marauders and hope then P player is retarded enough not to use any sentrys,'
Sure I think its wrong but the sollution isnt to nerf the marauder, its not actually nerf protoss overall! Nerf the living shit out of immortals! Remove shield or remove bonus dmg, either you get a durable unit against T mech or the other way you get a glass cannon that can rape all T mech if microed.
Then nerf the colossi to the ground, then we can nerf the marauders because now T can actually use marines and tanks.
The problem I see with immortals are that they are too high up on the tech tree. Most terrans I've played as protoss abused the timing window where he would have marauders while I haven't gotten my immortals out yet. I personally think that charge should be lower on tech so that zealot can become early counters to marauders.
Any reason why the Marauder easily beats Stalkers in 1v1 (and even more so in bigger fights) when they cost like half of what the Stalker does, yet they can be healed, stimmed, not EMPed and has a passive slow attack?
Don't come with something like "Stalker can attack air so its balanced" since there is never anything the Marauder would ever even want to attack in air in TvP, as the Protoss air is extremely lackluster. So even if they could attack air as well there would be no difference for the balance of the match-up.
As Stalker, Roach and Marauder are way too similar in design I would suggest making the Marauder melee (with some altered stats), that would balance it and make the tier 1.5 more unique.
On April 05 2010 19:09 Paladia wrote: Any reason why the Marauder easily beats Stalkers in 1v1 (and even more so in bigger fights) when they cost like half of what the Stalker does, yet they can be healed, stimmed, not EMPed and has a passive slow attack?
Don't come with something like "Stalker can attack air so its balanced" since there is never anything the Marauder would ever even want to attack in air in TvP, as the Protoss air is extremely lackluster. So even if they could attack air as well there would be no difference for the balance of the match-up.
As Stalker, Roach and Marauder are way too similar in design I would suggest making the Marauder melee (with some altered stats), that would balance it and make the tier 1.5 more unique.
Why should stalkers be counter to marauders? why are you even doing stalkers when you can make immortals?
stalker-roach-marauders are not designed to be great in 1v1 roach has most hp, can be burrowed marauders can slow stalkers can shoot air etc.etc
You NEED other units to make good unit composition, there can never be 1v1 unit balance ffs.
Here's an idea, make it like the Footman Shields in War3. Toggling it should have a 5-10s CD, with it on your Marauders move slow and slow, with it off they move normally, but don't slow. This way you can turn it on to slow incomming enemy units, but you can't getaway once they are on top of you.
Disclaimer: Low skilled player and my opinion is probably not worth much.
That being said, I really like this dudes suggestion, it seems pretty good to me. I will agree though that the terran army may need a buff elsewhere to counter this since the Marauder is a very important staple unit.
As a toss player though, I don't want anyone to mess with my immortal, I'd be lost without it.
On April 05 2010 18:02 Kylig wrote: The FACT is P has HARD counters for every single T unit there is! Colossi>all T bio Immortal>all T mech Stalkers/void rays>all T air
Yes on colossi but also psi storm would been acceptable Def yes on immortals No on stalkers and void rays. Vikings pwn void rays, and cost to cost Banshee own stalkers Carriers are true counter to all air units. Even vikings so called counters get decimated by them.
Last time I had 2 vikings against 2 void rays the vikings didn't even last 5 seconds 'TT... IF the void rays attacked something before, they are insane-_-
The thing is that maradeurs are so strong that T don't even bother to try other units/strategy. Thor, Viking, Banshee, Raven are very good units. Compared to voidray, corruptur, phoenix craps.
I think it is clear that terran maradeur imbalanced. Blizs try to buff other terran stuff but it doesn't help stopping maradeur spam :-(
Don't be ridiculous - Colossus is high enough in tech tree to be effective unit, although not while fighting alone.
Void Rays may well be killer IF they're charged. But we're not discussing Protoss units, but Marauder which seems to be pain in many players butts. Slow is painful as hell, but without serious changes to other factors, removing or significantly nerfing this ability will probably broke matchups. Changing between slowing missiles with slow moving speed and normal attack with normal speed seems reasonable, but I really don't know if it helps Terran (because it needs eventually to HELP the Terrans get rid of this nasty habit of massing Marauders and actually start using other units).
why tanks shouldnt be buffed to compensate for marauder nerf + Show Spoiler +
i think its a bad idea to make tanks better to compensate for a possible marauder nerf. tanks r already insanely good. ive played all my lately tvz with tanks as my core unit and they just rip apart a zerg army, only counter seem to be air once u reach about 16 tanks. even tho tanks r not used in tvp i dont think that is because the actual tanks r too bad, i think its because toss has too many counters against them. charge, blink, immortal shield and extra dmg, hell even phonix counters them in a sense.
all im trying to bring to the table with this post is that if u would nerf the marauder, dont compensate it by making the tank better, its already strong as hell against zerg.
u might say to urself "alright so we give it +vs armored when sieged to make it better vs toss and now z". well this is not sc1, toss doesnt necessarily have more armored force than zerg does. the core meatshield are roaches while toss has zealots, so this would actually make tanks even more t>z than t>p. i think our goal is to make tanks better against toss but at the same time i can tell there is no way u can buff the tank to fix this issue. the only way we can do this is to make toss counters to the tank worse.
this is why immortal, marauder and roach should be nerfed + Show Spoiler +
so for example we could start off by making marauders worse, how would that effect tvz? well for a starters roaches would be a slight too strong i think because marauders were the only unit that really countered the roach appropriately and legit. so we would have to nerf the roach now, but i dont know enough about zvp to say if this would be possible. immortals is the first that comes to mind that would become too strong. ive read 95% of this thread and everyone seem to agree that our 3rd step would be to nerf the immortal. and now when the immortal is also nerfed the tank is better in tvp, alot better.
so maybe this is the answer, nerf the trio of the marauder, roach and immortal. its the best answer i can come up with at least, and it seems to be the general opinion by the community of 19 pages here.
and if they would been nerfed what would actually happen + Show Spoiler +
1: we would probably see more tanks in tvp 2: massing marauders would be worse in tvp, arguably bad 3: roaches wouldnt control the game so much in the early game like they do now, they also wouldnt control the phase and timings of zvz which also seems to be an issue with them. they would still play a role as a meatshield of zerg but they woulndt be as strong against normal units or as weak against immortal which leads to less hard counters 4: tvt wouldnt change alot, obviously it would make marauders worse but they were already just a boost to the army to slow and attack from behind of ur marine line. it would be fine 5: immortals in pvp would get used less, this is bad but i have almost not seen any pvp at all, i hardly imagine immortals were so popular in that mu in the first place so i guess it would be fine 6: marauders would still be used in tvz to meatshield and counter roach like they are now 7: would encourage terrans to use marines more against zerg and zerg would find it more useful to make ling and baneling again. they have been distant of that lately ever since marines got longer build time
this is why u cant respond a marauder nerf with a removal of stimpack + Show Spoiler +
oh and abut the actual nerfs, i wouldnt remove stimpack or remove slow or anything like that. its pretty situational and it would change the effectiveness of marauders worse in different phases of the game. for example removing stimpack from them would make them totally obsolete in later game, nobody would make them.
and this is why u cant add a slow upgrade for them + Show Spoiler +
adding an upgrade for the slow instead of having it by default would just make it worse early game, and discourage defense of marauders or timing attacks in early and early-midgame the marauder is good in all from early game until late game, so if we would nerf them we would want to do something that effects it all through-out the game.
the part i dislike most about the marine-marauder comparison right now is that marauders only take 5 more seconds to build than marines, which i think is bogus. the other part that encourages this mass marauder is that reactors take twice as long time as tech labs to build. these r the 2 changes they did in patch 6 i believe and ever since fe tvp with rines doesnt work anymore, fe in tvz is totally impossible. we cant rely on marines in early game anymore, blizzard made a good job at removing them from the early game phase
i would add 5 seconds build time to marauders. it would add a better balance in the time of the units in the rax, the reapers take alot longer time than marauders when they dont cost alot different. marauders cost much more than marines but barely take longer time to build.
the second nerf i would do to the marauders would be to decrease the slow. right now if u have a unit running through the map, a stalker, roach, zea, sentry, you name it man. if u see a marauder u dont have the time to run because the vision is so small while the marauder range is so big that he will get off his first hit. and thats all he need. i think many ppl think its a boring unit because it only needs 1 hit to declare its pray as a dead man. most units can make a run for it, its exciting to see if it can actually get away. a zergling running for his life while stalker run after with micro and blink. but with marauder its just 1 hit then u know its dead, no excitement. we want to nerf the slow enough that units like stalkers can run away from it even under fire, but we dont want to nerf the slow too much that it didnt matter in this scenario. the slow should give us extra 1-3 shots but not slow it until death. i think it gives 50% slow right now, maybe a 33% slow would be better?
the immortal nerf would simply be a less vs armored, instead of +30 vs armored maybe +25. thats a legit and solid change, it doesnt change alot but enough to say its fair.
the roach nerf could be as simple as giving it less hp or armor, it already is slow as hell and it already attacks slow with a fairly slow dps. what makes the roach so plain strong is that it has 2 armor, it shuts down damage from marines by 33%, zerglings by 40% and zealots by 25%. it counters low tier units too hard. giving it less hp wouldnt really change this fact so i think the best choice would be to decrease the roach armor by 1
Going slightly off-topic... Maybe Blizzards intention is to make the Marauder the main Terran bulk unit. By moving people away from marine as the bread and butter towards the marauder they take take away your ability to attack air with the bulk of your force. This gives the Terrans a feel similar to when the Zerg are focusing primarily on Roaches, and keep just enough Hydras for anti-air. I am not implying that making the Terran and Zerg more alike in this way is a good thing, the idea of making the Marauder the key bio unit is very interesting because of their low gas component. If you are using a more gas intensive build you are forced into using the less ground to ground capable marines. I actually don't mind this idea.
The marauder would still need to be considered balanced of course, and should not be capable of being the soul unit in the Terran force.. But I don't mind the idea of Marauder being designed to be the better choice for ground in general than a marine.
In general with the Marauder, Immortal, Roach. I feel that a slight lowering in damage output might be the best option. And maybe not having buildings are armored... if necessary certain units can have +dmg to structures like the Reaper has... I like the +dmg to heavy element against units, but don't think it is playing nice with structures atm.
Perhaps a simple change to how hardened shield works would be the thing to change about immortals. Just throwing stuff out there but what if they reduced damage over 10 by a percentage, say 50%. This would make them stronger against units that do beween 10 and 20 damage, mainly roaches and hydras. It would still take a sieged tank more then 3 shots to get through the shields, so they would still do great against them I think.
The only way to nerf Immortals would be to change the way Hardened Shield works. I'm fairly sure that it would make a pretty good difference if they increased the maximum damage it takes from 10 to 12 or 13.
I serious don't understand the behavior of people.
"We want to make Tanks better vs P". It's an pretty nice argument, but in the same you refuse to change the diversity... You want to nerf P as exchange for T, claiming this would be necessary to balance the game. Actually it's an simple excuse to keep 1 Unit massed as core and don't be forced like P to have tons of different units at once.
P's HT are nerfed because they were to "powerful" vs the M&M ball, actually just vs Marines. Toss is being pushed to go Robo, because it's simple better to do it right now. Now there is a claim to nerf Toss Robo, so T can go easy mode and without any effort of diversity to Tanks, because if immortals are not a threat anymore there is no need to build counter measures vs them and you can simple go mass.
In the end nothing would change expect the fact that the core unit for T would change.
On April 05 2010 19:09 Paladia wrote: Any reason why the Marauder easily beats Stalkers in 1v1 (and even more so in bigger fights) when they cost like half of what the Stalker does, yet they can be healed, stimmed, not EMPed and has a passive slow attack?
Don't come with something like "Stalker can attack air so its balanced" since there is never anything the Marauder would ever even want to attack in air in TvP, as the Protoss air is extremely lackluster. So even if they could attack air as well there would be no difference for the balance of the match-up.
As Stalker, Roach and Marauder are way too similar in design I would suggest making the Marauder melee (with some altered stats), that would balance it and make the tier 1.5 more unique.
Why should stalkers be counter to marauders? why are you even doing stalkers when you can make immortals?
stalker-roach-marauders are not designed to be great in 1v1 roach has most hp, can be burrowed marauders can slow stalkers can shoot air etc.etc
You NEED other units to make good unit composition, there can never be 1v1 unit balance ffs.
Dumbass, you just said protoss has to make good unit composition and yet terran can build and win with one unit. Basically that is what this thread all about, terran can win games just by building maradeur, and ppl are saying this is wrong.
On April 05 2010 20:47 MorroW wrote: why tanks shouldnt be buffed to compensate for marauder nerf + Show Spoiler +
i think its a bad idea to make tanks better to compensate for a possible marauder nerf. tanks r already insanely good. ive played all my lately tvz with tanks as my core unit and they just rip apart a zerg army, only counter seem to be air once u reach about 16 tanks. even tho tanks r not used in tvp i dont think that is because the actual tanks r too bad, i think its because toss has too many counters against them. charge, blink, immortal shield and extra dmg, hell even phonix counters them in a sense.
all im trying to bring to the table with this post is that if u would nerf the marauder, dont compensate it by making the tank better, its already strong as hell against zerg.
u might say to urself "alright so we give it +vs armored when sieged to make it better vs toss and now z". well this is not sc1, toss doesnt necessarily have more armored force than zerg does. the core meatshield are roaches while toss has zealots, so this would actually make tanks even more t>z than t>p. i think our goal is to make tanks better against toss but at the same time i can tell there is no way u can buff the tank to fix this issue. the only way we can do this is to make toss counters to the tank worse.
this is why immortal, marauder and roach should be nerfed + Show Spoiler +
so for example we could start off by making marauders worse, how would that effect tvz? well for a starters roaches would be a slight too strong i think because marauders were the only unit that really countered the roach appropriately and legit. so we would have to nerf the roach now, but i dont know enough about zvp to say if this would be possible. immortals is the first that comes to mind that would become too strong. ive read 95% of this thread and everyone seem to agree that our 3rd step would be to nerf the immortal. and now when the immortal is also nerfed the tank is better in tvp, alot better.
so maybe this is the answer, nerf the trio of the marauder, roach and immortal. its the best answer i can come up with at least, and it seems to be the general opinion by the community of 19 pages here.
and if they would been nerfed what would actually happen + Show Spoiler +
1: we would probably see more tanks in tvp 2: massing marauders would be worse in tvp, arguably bad 3: roaches wouldnt control the game so much in the early game like they do now, they also wouldnt control the phase and timings of zvz which also seems to be an issue with them. they would still play a role as a meatshield of zerg but they woulndt be as strong against normal units or as weak against immortal which leads to less hard counters 4: tvt wouldnt change alot, obviously it would make marauders worse but they were already just a boost to the army to slow and attack from behind of ur marine line. it would be fine 5: immortals in pvp would get used less, this is bad but i have almost not seen any pvp at all, i hardly imagine immortals were so popular in that mu in the first place so i guess it would be fine 6: marauders would still be used in tvz to meatshield and counter roach like they are now 7: would encourage terrans to use marines more against zerg and zerg would find it more useful to make ling and baneling again. they have been distant of that lately ever since marines got longer build time
this is why u cant respond a marauder nerf with a removal of stimpack + Show Spoiler +
oh and abut the actual nerfs, i wouldnt remove stimpack or remove slow or anything like that. its pretty situational and it would change the effectiveness of marauders worse in different phases of the game. for example removing stimpack from them would make them totally obsolete in later game, nobody would make them.
and this is why u cant add a slow upgrade for them + Show Spoiler +
adding an upgrade for the slow instead of having it by default would just make it worse early game, and discourage defense of marauders or timing attacks in early and early-midgame the marauder is good in all from early game until late game, so if we would nerf them we would want to do something that effects it all through-out the game.
the part i dislike most about the marine-marauder comparison right now is that marauders only take 5 more seconds to build than marines, which i think is bogus. the other part that encourages this mass marauder is that reactors take twice as long time as tech labs to build. these r the 2 changes they did in patch 6 i believe and ever since fe tvp with rines doesnt work anymore, fe in tvz is totally impossible. we cant rely on marines in early game anymore, blizzard made a good job at removing them from the early game phase
i would add 5 seconds build time to marauders. it would add a better balance in the time of the units in the rax, the reapers take alot longer time than marauders when they dont cost alot different. marauders cost much more than marines but barely take longer time to build.
the second nerf i would do to the marauders would be to decrease the slow. right now if u have a unit running through the map, a stalker, roach, zea, sentry, you name it man. if u see a marauder u dont have the time to run because the vision is so small while the marauder range is so big that he will get off his first hit. and thats all he need. i think many ppl think its a boring unit because it only needs 1 hit to declare its pray as a dead man. most units can make a run for it, its exciting to see if it can actually get away. a zergling running for his life while stalker run after with micro and blink. but with marauder its just 1 hit then u know its dead, no excitement. we want to nerf the slow enough that units like stalkers can run away from it even under fire, but we dont want to nerf the slow too much that it didnt matter in this scenario. the slow should give us extra 1-3 shots but not slow it until death. i think it gives 50% slow right now, maybe a 33% slow would be better?
the immortal nerf would simply be a less vs armored, instead of +30 vs armored maybe +25. thats a legit and solid change, it doesnt change alot but enough to say its fair.
the roach nerf could be as simple as giving it less hp or armor, it already is slow as hell and it already attacks slow with a fairly slow dps. what makes the roach so plain strong is that it has 2 armor, it shuts down damage from marines by 33%, zerglings by 40% and zealots by 25%. it counters low tier units too hard. giving it less hp wouldnt really change this fact so i think the best choice would be to decrease the roach armor by 1
I don't see any reason of stopping maradeur spam by terran after your suggested changes. Mass maradeur would be even more powerfull after that. Combat abilities of Roach and Immortal will be weakened but maradeur will be even stronger in big battles. The only impact is that small amount of maradeurs will not be that good because of the 'slow' nerf.
I just played a game where I attacked with 7 stimmed maurauder. My enemy had 1 centry, 2 zealots, 2 immortals and 1 stalker. He didn't lose 1 single unit. All thoses protosses are whining because their race was easy in sc1.
On April 05 2010 20:47 MorroW wrote: why tanks shouldnt be buffed to compensate for marauder nerf + Show Spoiler +
i think its a bad idea to make tanks better to compensate for a possible marauder nerf. tanks r already insanely good. ive played all my lately tvz with tanks as my core unit and they just rip apart a zerg army, only counter seem to be air once u reach about 16 tanks. even tho tanks r not used in tvp i dont think that is because the actual tanks r too bad, i think its because toss has too many counters against them. charge, blink, immortal shield and extra dmg, hell even phonix counters them in a sense.
all im trying to bring to the table with this post is that if u would nerf the marauder, dont compensate it by making the tank better, its already strong as hell against zerg.
u might say to urself "alright so we give it +vs armored when sieged to make it better vs toss and now z". well this is not sc1, toss doesnt necessarily have more armored force than zerg does. the core meatshield are roaches while toss has zealots, so this would actually make tanks even more t>z than t>p. i think our goal is to make tanks better against toss but at the same time i can tell there is no way u can buff the tank to fix this issue. the only way we can do this is to make toss counters to the tank worse.
this is why immortal, marauder and roach should be nerfed + Show Spoiler +
so for example we could start off by making marauders worse, how would that effect tvz? well for a starters roaches would be a slight too strong i think because marauders were the only unit that really countered the roach appropriately and legit. so we would have to nerf the roach now, but i dont know enough about zvp to say if this would be possible. immortals is the first that comes to mind that would become too strong. ive read 95% of this thread and everyone seem to agree that our 3rd step would be to nerf the immortal. and now when the immortal is also nerfed the tank is better in tvp, alot better.
so maybe this is the answer, nerf the trio of the marauder, roach and immortal. its the best answer i can come up with at least, and it seems to be the general opinion by the community of 19 pages here.
and if they would been nerfed what would actually happen + Show Spoiler +
1: we would probably see more tanks in tvp 2: massing marauders would be worse in tvp, arguably bad 3: roaches wouldnt control the game so much in the early game like they do now, they also wouldnt control the phase and timings of zvz which also seems to be an issue with them. they would still play a role as a meatshield of zerg but they woulndt be as strong against normal units or as weak against immortal which leads to less hard counters 4: tvt wouldnt change alot, obviously it would make marauders worse but they were already just a boost to the army to slow and attack from behind of ur marine line. it would be fine 5: immortals in pvp would get used less, this is bad but i have almost not seen any pvp at all, i hardly imagine immortals were so popular in that mu in the first place so i guess it would be fine 6: marauders would still be used in tvz to meatshield and counter roach like they are now 7: would encourage terrans to use marines more against zerg and zerg would find it more useful to make ling and baneling again. they have been distant of that lately ever since marines got longer build time
this is why u cant respond a marauder nerf with a removal of stimpack + Show Spoiler +
oh and abut the actual nerfs, i wouldnt remove stimpack or remove slow or anything like that. its pretty situational and it would change the effectiveness of marauders worse in different phases of the game. for example removing stimpack from them would make them totally obsolete in later game, nobody would make them.
and this is why u cant add a slow upgrade for them + Show Spoiler +
adding an upgrade for the slow instead of having it by default would just make it worse early game, and discourage defense of marauders or timing attacks in early and early-midgame the marauder is good in all from early game until late game, so if we would nerf them we would want to do something that effects it all through-out the game.
the part i dislike most about the marine-marauder comparison right now is that marauders only take 5 more seconds to build than marines, which i think is bogus. the other part that encourages this mass marauder is that reactors take twice as long time as tech labs to build. these r the 2 changes they did in patch 6 i believe and ever since fe tvp with rines doesnt work anymore, fe in tvz is totally impossible. we cant rely on marines in early game anymore, blizzard made a good job at removing them from the early game phase
i would add 5 seconds build time to marauders. it would add a better balance in the time of the units in the rax, the reapers take alot longer time than marauders when they dont cost alot different. marauders cost much more than marines but barely take longer time to build.
the second nerf i would do to the marauders would be to decrease the slow. right now if u have a unit running through the map, a stalker, roach, zea, sentry, you name it man. if u see a marauder u dont have the time to run because the vision is so small while the marauder range is so big that he will get off his first hit. and thats all he need. i think many ppl think its a boring unit because it only needs 1 hit to declare its pray as a dead man. most units can make a run for it, its exciting to see if it can actually get away. a zergling running for his life while stalker run after with micro and blink. but with marauder its just 1 hit then u know its dead, no excitement. we want to nerf the slow enough that units like stalkers can run away from it even under fire, but we dont want to nerf the slow too much that it didnt matter in this scenario. the slow should give us extra 1-3 shots but not slow it until death. i think it gives 50% slow right now, maybe a 33% slow would be better?
the immortal nerf would simply be a less vs armored, instead of +30 vs armored maybe +25. thats a legit and solid change, it doesnt change alot but enough to say its fair.
the roach nerf could be as simple as giving it less hp or armor, it already is slow as hell and it already attacks slow with a fairly slow dps. what makes the roach so plain strong is that it has 2 armor, it shuts down damage from marines by 33%, zerglings by 40% and zealots by 25%. it counters low tier units too hard. giving it less hp wouldnt really change this fact so i think the best choice would be to decrease the roach armor by 1
I like this! I would nerf the roach's damage instead of its armour though, because the armour is the identity of the roach imo.
On April 05 2010 21:52 lew wrote: I just played a game where I attacked with 7 stimmed maurauder. My enemy had 1 centry, 2 zealots, 2 immortals and 1 stalker. He didn't lose 1 single unit. All thoses protosses are whining because their race was easy in sc1.
If you didn't even manage to kill a Sentry or a Zealot, you failed. Hard.
On April 05 2010 20:47 MorroW wrote: why tanks shouldnt be buffed to compensate for marauder nerf + Show Spoiler +
i think its a bad idea to make tanks better to compensate for a possible marauder nerf. tanks r already insanely good. ive played all my lately tvz with tanks as my core unit and they just rip apart a zerg army, only counter seem to be air once u reach about 16 tanks. even tho tanks r not used in tvp i dont think that is because the actual tanks r too bad, i think its because toss has too many counters against them. charge, blink, immortal shield and extra dmg, hell even phonix counters them in a sense.
all im trying to bring to the table with this post is that if u would nerf the marauder, dont compensate it by making the tank better, its already strong as hell against zerg.
u might say to urself "alright so we give it +vs armored when sieged to make it better vs toss and now z". well this is not sc1, toss doesnt necessarily have more armored force than zerg does. the core meatshield are roaches while toss has zealots, so this would actually make tanks even more t>z than t>p. i think our goal is to make tanks better against toss but at the same time i can tell there is no way u can buff the tank to fix this issue. the only way we can do this is to make toss counters to the tank worse.
this is why immortal, marauder and roach should be nerfed + Show Spoiler +
so for example we could start off by making marauders worse, how would that effect tvz? well for a starters roaches would be a slight too strong i think because marauders were the only unit that really countered the roach appropriately and legit. so we would have to nerf the roach now, but i dont know enough about zvp to say if this would be possible. immortals is the first that comes to mind that would become too strong. ive read 95% of this thread and everyone seem to agree that our 3rd step would be to nerf the immortal. and now when the immortal is also nerfed the tank is better in tvp, alot better.
so maybe this is the answer, nerf the trio of the marauder, roach and immortal. its the best answer i can come up with at least, and it seems to be the general opinion by the community of 19 pages here.
and if they would been nerfed what would actually happen + Show Spoiler +
1: we would probably see more tanks in tvp 2: massing marauders would be worse in tvp, arguably bad 3: roaches wouldnt control the game so much in the early game like they do now, they also wouldnt control the phase and timings of zvz which also seems to be an issue with them. they would still play a role as a meatshield of zerg but they woulndt be as strong against normal units or as weak against immortal which leads to less hard counters 4: tvt wouldnt change alot, obviously it would make marauders worse but they were already just a boost to the army to slow and attack from behind of ur marine line. it would be fine 5: immortals in pvp would get used less, this is bad but i have almost not seen any pvp at all, i hardly imagine immortals were so popular in that mu in the first place so i guess it would be fine 6: marauders would still be used in tvz to meatshield and counter roach like they are now 7: would encourage terrans to use marines more against zerg and zerg would find it more useful to make ling and baneling again. they have been distant of that lately ever since marines got longer build time
this is why u cant respond a marauder nerf with a removal of stimpack + Show Spoiler +
oh and abut the actual nerfs, i wouldnt remove stimpack or remove slow or anything like that. its pretty situational and it would change the effectiveness of marauders worse in different phases of the game. for example removing stimpack from them would make them totally obsolete in later game, nobody would make them.
and this is why u cant add a slow upgrade for them + Show Spoiler +
adding an upgrade for the slow instead of having it by default would just make it worse early game, and discourage defense of marauders or timing attacks in early and early-midgame the marauder is good in all from early game until late game, so if we would nerf them we would want to do something that effects it all through-out the game.
the part i dislike most about the marine-marauder comparison right now is that marauders only take 5 more seconds to build than marines, which i think is bogus. the other part that encourages this mass marauder is that reactors take twice as long time as tech labs to build. these r the 2 changes they did in patch 6 i believe and ever since fe tvp with rines doesnt work anymore, fe in tvz is totally impossible. we cant rely on marines in early game anymore, blizzard made a good job at removing them from the early game phase
i would add 5 seconds build time to marauders. it would add a better balance in the time of the units in the rax, the reapers take alot longer time than marauders when they dont cost alot different. marauders cost much more than marines but barely take longer time to build.
the second nerf i would do to the marauders would be to decrease the slow. right now if u have a unit running through the map, a stalker, roach, zea, sentry, you name it man. if u see a marauder u dont have the time to run because the vision is so small while the marauder range is so big that he will get off his first hit. and thats all he need. i think many ppl think its a boring unit because it only needs 1 hit to declare its pray as a dead man. most units can make a run for it, its exciting to see if it can actually get away. a zergling running for his life while stalker run after with micro and blink. but with marauder its just 1 hit then u know its dead, no excitement. we want to nerf the slow enough that units like stalkers can run away from it even under fire, but we dont want to nerf the slow too much that it didnt matter in this scenario. the slow should give us extra 1-3 shots but not slow it until death. i think it gives 50% slow right now, maybe a 33% slow would be better?
the immortal nerf would simply be a less vs armored, instead of +30 vs armored maybe +25. thats a legit and solid change, it doesnt change alot but enough to say its fair.
the roach nerf could be as simple as giving it less hp or armor, it already is slow as hell and it already attacks slow with a fairly slow dps. what makes the roach so plain strong is that it has 2 armor, it shuts down damage from marines by 33%, zerglings by 40% and zealots by 25%. it counters low tier units too hard. giving it less hp wouldnt really change this fact so i think the best choice would be to decrease the roach armor by 1
I don't see any reason of stopping maradeur spam by terran after your suggested changes. Mass maradeur would be even more powerfull after that. Combat abilities of Roach and Immortal will be weakened but maradeur will be even stronger in big battles. The only impact is that small amount of maradeurs will not be that good because of the 'slow' nerf.
u wouldnt be able to mass marauder because of the extra timing. 5 seconds is nothing set in stone but the idea ti increase build time of both marauder and tech lab will make it impossible to fe against toss with pure marauder, would be impossible to survive against toss with pure marauder. this would lead to a weaker later game because u would require more defenses and units in early game to secure ur expo. it would indirectly make the mass marauder alot weaker from top to toe without touching its stats. just look at how bad the marine is now, we can barely build it anymore just because of the time changes, its bigger than most ppl think. not always the answer is to change the dmg or the hp, sometimes its best just to change the build time. starcraft is all about timing and marauder have so little of it that it fits in at any point of the game
what makes the marauder so good isnt because of its high hp, speed or dmg. its so damn good to mass against toss because it takes so low tech, perfect mineral/gas ratio and it takes so little time to build. it should be a strong unit imo, but it shouldnt be the majority of the terran army and most definitely it shouldnt be a unit that does well by itself against almost all units in the game
u might even be right, they might even have to nerf the damage of the marauder. but i think the other changes r more appropriate for a starter and thats why i said i wanted to change the other things rather than its dmg or hp
On April 05 2010 21:52 lew wrote: I just played a game where I attacked with 7 stimmed maurauder. My enemy had 1 centry, 2 zealots, 2 immortals and 1 stalker. He didn't lose 1 single unit. All thoses protosses are whining because their race was easy in sc1.
7 marauder is 700/175 while the toss army u mentioned is 875/350. u should die hard against that, but the fact that u didnt lose 1 single unit just means ur terrible lol, against that u should at least be able to take down 2 zealots and possibly the sentry. and even that speaks for itself how terribly good marauders do on their own, the only unit in that mix it should counter is the stalker and still it can manage to take out a quarter of the force, thats insane
On April 05 2010 21:52 lew wrote: I just played a game where I attacked with 7 stimmed maurauder. My enemy had 1 centry, 2 zealots, 2 immortals and 1 stalker. He didn't lose 1 single unit. All thoses protosses are whining because their race was easy in sc1.
So you threw low-tier unit worth of 700/175 while not microing them at all besides stimming into _mix_ of units including tier2 worth of 875/350 and expected to win? That just speaks volumes about marauder's imbalance.
The Marauder clearly needs to be nerfed quite a bit, and given a unique purpose in the Terran army aside from countering Roaches. All the hard counters introduced by Dustin Browder are completely nonsensical, and I get the feeling that he still thinks he's working on a Command & Conquer game with these unit designs.
On April 05 2010 22:37 lew wrote: But what unit do we have to make as a terran? We really got nothing...
Another prove that T compares all other T units with Marauder and comes to the result that they are not that cost effective as Marauders, so keep building them instead of unit mix.
On April 05 2010 22:37 lew wrote: But what unit do we have to make as a terran? We really got nothing...
I disagree. I absolutely love massing up Marines without Medevacs and siege tanks with Raven support. Raven turret harass is absolutely underrated, you can kill 5-6 drones in two seconds. Hellions have the potential to be interesting but die like flies in late game due to critical design flaws in collision sizes in the game.
Some games I'll go mass air and transition into BC's because I have map control with vikings/banshees. There are so many possibilities with Terran. Marauder just makes the games BORING and slightly easier to win.
Remove the three units of imbalance completely, or nerf them.
On April 05 2010 21:52 lew wrote: I just played a game where I attacked with 7 stimmed maurauder. My enemy had 1 centry, 2 zealots, 2 immortals and 1 stalker. He didn't lose 1 single unit. All thoses protosses are whining because their race was easy in sc1.
This is obviously the problem right here. Terrans just massing one unit, as you yourself admit, nowadays they don't even need to bother with other units to win. However, when the opponent skills and bring a fully thought out balanced army of 4 different units with caster support against this 1 terran mass, it's an imbalance? Not only that, the Protoss army costs twice as much. Just those two Immortals alone costs as much as your Marauders. Can you give any valid reason why the Marauders shouldn't instantly lose in that scenario?
Are you so boxed in your mind that you think massing one unit of yours should beat a well balanced army that costs twice as much?
Why didn't you bring any other unit? Why not bring a ghost, that would perfectly counter the sentry and the immortals.
On April 05 2010 20:47 MorroW wrote: why tanks shouldnt be buffed to compensate for marauder nerf + Show Spoiler +
i think its a bad idea to make tanks better to compensate for a possible marauder nerf. tanks r already insanely good. ive played all my lately tvz with tanks as my core unit and they just rip apart a zerg army, only counter seem to be air once u reach about 16 tanks. even tho tanks r not used in tvp i dont think that is because the actual tanks r too bad, i think its because toss has too many counters against them. charge, blink, immortal shield and extra dmg, hell even phonix counters them in a sense.
all im trying to bring to the table with this post is that if u would nerf the marauder, dont compensate it by making the tank better, its already strong as hell against zerg.
u might say to urself "alright so we give it +vs armored when sieged to make it better vs toss and now z". well this is not sc1, toss doesnt necessarily have more armored force than zerg does. the core meatshield are roaches while toss has zealots, so this would actually make tanks even more t>z than t>p. i think our goal is to make tanks better against toss but at the same time i can tell there is no way u can buff the tank to fix this issue. the only way we can do this is to make toss counters to the tank worse.
this is why immortal, marauder and roach should be nerfed + Show Spoiler +
so for example we could start off by making marauders worse, how would that effect tvz? well for a starters roaches would be a slight too strong i think because marauders were the only unit that really countered the roach appropriately and legit. so we would have to nerf the roach now, but i dont know enough about zvp to say if this would be possible. immortals is the first that comes to mind that would become too strong. ive read 95% of this thread and everyone seem to agree that our 3rd step would be to nerf the immortal. and now when the immortal is also nerfed the tank is better in tvp, alot better.
so maybe this is the answer, nerf the trio of the marauder, roach and immortal. its the best answer i can come up with at least, and it seems to be the general opinion by the community of 19 pages here.
and if they would been nerfed what would actually happen + Show Spoiler +
1: we would probably see more tanks in tvp 2: massing marauders would be worse in tvp, arguably bad 3: roaches wouldnt control the game so much in the early game like they do now, they also wouldnt control the phase and timings of zvz which also seems to be an issue with them. they would still play a role as a meatshield of zerg but they woulndt be as strong against normal units or as weak against immortal which leads to less hard counters 4: tvt wouldnt change alot, obviously it would make marauders worse but they were already just a boost to the army to slow and attack from behind of ur marine line. it would be fine 5: immortals in pvp would get used less, this is bad but i have almost not seen any pvp at all, i hardly imagine immortals were so popular in that mu in the first place so i guess it would be fine 6: marauders would still be used in tvz to meatshield and counter roach like they are now 7: would encourage terrans to use marines more against zerg and zerg would find it more useful to make ling and baneling again. they have been distant of that lately ever since marines got longer build time
this is why u cant respond a marauder nerf with a removal of stimpack + Show Spoiler +
oh and abut the actual nerfs, i wouldnt remove stimpack or remove slow or anything like that. its pretty situational and it would change the effectiveness of marauders worse in different phases of the game. for example removing stimpack from them would make them totally obsolete in later game, nobody would make them.
and this is why u cant add a slow upgrade for them + Show Spoiler +
adding an upgrade for the slow instead of having it by default would just make it worse early game, and discourage defense of marauders or timing attacks in early and early-midgame the marauder is good in all from early game until late game, so if we would nerf them we would want to do something that effects it all through-out the game.
the part i dislike most about the marine-marauder comparison right now is that marauders only take 5 more seconds to build than marines, which i think is bogus. the other part that encourages this mass marauder is that reactors take twice as long time as tech labs to build. these r the 2 changes they did in patch 6 i believe and ever since fe tvp with rines doesnt work anymore, fe in tvz is totally impossible. we cant rely on marines in early game anymore, blizzard made a good job at removing them from the early game phase
i would add 5 seconds build time to marauders. it would add a better balance in the time of the units in the rax, the reapers take alot longer time than marauders when they dont cost alot different. marauders cost much more than marines but barely take longer time to build.
the second nerf i would do to the marauders would be to decrease the slow. right now if u have a unit running through the map, a stalker, roach, zea, sentry, you name it man. if u see a marauder u dont have the time to run because the vision is so small while the marauder range is so big that he will get off his first hit. and thats all he need. i think many ppl think its a boring unit because it only needs 1 hit to declare its pray as a dead man. most units can make a run for it, its exciting to see if it can actually get away. a zergling running for his life while stalker run after with micro and blink. but with marauder its just 1 hit then u know its dead, no excitement. we want to nerf the slow enough that units like stalkers can run away from it even under fire, but we dont want to nerf the slow too much that it didnt matter in this scenario. the slow should give us extra 1-3 shots but not slow it until death. i think it gives 50% slow right now, maybe a 33% slow would be better?
the immortal nerf would simply be a less vs armored, instead of +30 vs armored maybe +25. thats a legit and solid change, it doesnt change alot but enough to say its fair.
the roach nerf could be as simple as giving it less hp or armor, it already is slow as hell and it already attacks slow with a fairly slow dps. what makes the roach so plain strong is that it has 2 armor, it shuts down damage from marines by 33%, zerglings by 40% and zealots by 25%. it counters low tier units too hard. giving it less hp wouldnt really change this fact so i think the best choice would be to decrease the roach armor by 1
I agree with all of this except for the last one. I feel that currently zvz is CLOSE to having both lings and roaches as viable options. Roaches are ahead, but not by very much. If you decrease roach armor that means 33% more damage from lings, which is huge and will heavily shift zvz towards ling vs ling. Roaches would need some compensation to become an ok choice in this case. Roach armor matters most in zvz, less in zvt and zvp because many units but especially Marauders and Immortals deal so much damage per hit that 2 armor barely matters. Reducing Roach damage has the same effect, you can't 2 shot lings anymore if you get +1 ranged. That basically makes it impossible to win with roaches against zerglings. An HP nerf on roaches is the much better choice imo and goes well together with an Immortal bonus damage nerf that would make mech more interesting.
Just want to tossin my 2 cents, after reading the OP and most of these 20 pages of posts (im tired now), i definatly agree that if you are going to nerf marauder then roaches + immortals need nerfing too. However, i disagree that they all need a nerf. The units are all compleatly reasonable, and nothing stands out as "unplayably overpowered." Sure marauders slow units, but that makes them worse in a stand-up fight. You cant engage the same forces you can on open ground in a tight spot, so they are situationally amazing, and sometimes just OK. THATS GOOD! Make people use their units to max effectiveness. I think protoss needs to learn to use tactics a bit better when fighting marauders. (If i wasn't at work id find a replay). Keep zelots outside view of your ramp on the bottom of your ramp, and when marauders run up the ramp, run the zelots up BEHIND the marauders, and keep the sentries/stalkers on the other side. Without their mobility, Marauders loose a significant portion of their effectiveness.
On April 05 2010 21:52 lew wrote: I just played a game where I attacked with 7 stimmed maurauder. My enemy had 1 centry, 2 zealots, 2 immortals and 1 stalker. He didn't lose 1 single unit. All thoses protosses are whining because their race was easy in sc1.
This is obviously the problem right here. Terrans just massing one unit, as you yourself admit, nowadays they don't even need to bother with other units to win. However, when the opponent skills and bring a fully thought out balanced army of 4 different units with caster support against this 1 terran mass, it's an imbalance? Not only that, the Protoss army costs twice as much. Just those two Immortals alone costs as much as your Marauders. Can you give any valid reason why the Marauders shouldn't instantly lose in that scenario?
Are you so boxed in your mind that you think massing one unit of yours should beat a well balanced army that costs twice as much?
Why didn't you bring any other unit? Why not bring a ghost, that would perfectly counter the sentry and the immortals.
Uhm actually the fact that he got rocked says its pretty balanced, since the toss didnt lose one unit and his army was only slightly larger and more expensive....
On April 05 2010 22:22 Sinekyre14 wrote: The Marauder clearly needs to be nerfed quite a bit, and given a unique purpose in the Terran army aside from countering Roaches. All the hard counters introduced by Dustin Browder are completely nonsensical, and I get the feeling that he still thinks he's working on a Command & Conquer game with these unit designs.
/Agree with OP.
/Agree with YOU. ^^'
Dustin should take the Dune-Buggy that is called a Hellion and his hard-counter-system and go back to C&C. xD
No really, that stuff totally annoys me - how the hell did Blizzard think hard-counter-system is a good thing with everybody saying from the start the cornerstone of SC1 is that it has no real hardcounter-system.
I've followed the development of SC1 for years and Blizzard always said that they wouldn't go for the rock-paper-scissor-stuff, so WTF happened with that? We now have Units that deal double and more to certain Unit-types and absorb a huge number of DMG against certain Units - WTF?
really - WTF? ^^'
I mean, sc2 is a great game, but why the hell F it up with sth as stupid as this?
On April 05 2010 21:52 lew wrote: I just played a game where I attacked with 7 stimmed maurauder. My enemy had 1 centry, 2 zealots, 2 immortals and 1 stalker. He didn't lose 1 single unit. All thoses protosses are whining because their race was easy in sc1.
It's actually pretty close in terms of resources.
7 marauders with stim is 850 minerals 325 gas the protoss army in that example is 875 minerals, 350 gas.
of course the toss army requires a robo facility, etc etc. pure army comp wise though, i'd say those two armies are comparable.
i also think 7 stimmed marauders should have killed at least some stuff in that army though. with kiting fallbacks, I could see them killing everything but the immortals
On April 05 2010 23:49 kickinhead wrote: I've followed the development of SC1 for years and Blizzard always said that they wouldn't go for the rock-paper-scissor-stuff, so WTF happened with that? We now have Units that deal double and more to certain Unit-types and absorb a huge number of DMG against certain Units - WTF?
Please realize that SC1 had a rough hard-counter system with 3 types of damage and 3 types of armor.
On April 05 2010 21:52 lew wrote: I just played a game where I attacked with 7 stimmed maurauder. My enemy had 1 centry, 2 zealots, 2 immortals and 1 stalker. He didn't lose 1 single unit. All thoses protosses are whining because their race was easy in sc1.
This is obviously the problem right here. Terrans just massing one unit, as you yourself admit, nowadays they don't even need to bother with other units to win. However, when the opponent skills and bring a fully thought out balanced army of 4 different units with caster support against this 1 terran mass, it's an imbalance? Not only that, the Protoss army costs twice as much. Just those two Immortals alone costs as much as your Marauders. Can you give any valid reason why the Marauders shouldn't instantly lose in that scenario?
Are you so boxed in your mind that you think massing one unit of yours should beat a well balanced army that costs twice as much?
Why didn't you bring any other unit? Why not bring a ghost, that would perfectly counter the sentry and the immortals.
Uhm actually the fact that he got rocked says its pretty balanced, since the toss didnt lose one unit and his army was only slightly larger and more expensive....
There's something wrong with his 7 marauders if he didn't land a single kill. Sentry first, then micro and take out the zealots, then the immortals, then reinforce, then pwn with marauders.
Rinse. Repeat.
The fact that he said that means he's probably a newb or a troll, either way he's a fool.
On April 06 2010 00:02 RPGabe wrote: I just played a game where I attacked with 7 stimmed maurauder. My enemy had 1 centry, 2 zealots, 2 immortals and 1 stalker. He didn't lose 1 single unit. All thoses protosses are whining because their race was easy in sc1.
First of all, not everybody playing Protoss in SC1 is playing them in SC2, personally, I think that many ppl changed races because they feel quite different and are played quite different than in SC1.
Then, if you attack with pure Marauders into 2 Immortals AFTER stimming them, you're doomed to fail big time. Immos suck up half the DMG of Marauders and deal more than double amount of DMG against them, what did you expect? Also, if you didn't kill anything you clearly didn't micro anything above A-move, because Marauders deal 20 DMG to Stalkers (which makes 8-9 Marauder-shots, depending on whether Guardian-Shield is on or not) and 10 to Sentrys (which equals also 8-9 shots, depending on Shield being on or not), so you could've easily sniped the stalker and Sentrys and retreat and come back with EMP + Marines if the Protoss went for a lot of Immortals.
Best solution would've been not to stupidly attack into a Unit-composition that is basically a direct hard-counter to your Units and just w8 for EMP and marines... You really can't expect Marauders to even beat the counter-units, although even with pure-marauders, you just need 1 well-placed EMP to shred Immos into little pieces within seconds while expanding at the same time. ^^' Also, marauders get out so soon, on certain Maps (LT close-position), you can just walk over there and snipe the pylon powering the gateways before 1 Stalker gets out. xD
@lolaloc: True, but it wasn't nearly as bad as in SC2. It didn't force you into playing certain Units, you could've used Unit creatively to counter stuff in different ways, not like in SC2, were it's clear that Blizzard had a direct counter in mind they want us to ply when facing let's say roaches or Marauders as Protoss, the counter here being the Immortals.
On April 05 2010 21:15 Dx Fx wrote: I serious don't understand the behavior of people.
"We want to make Tanks better vs P". It's an pretty nice argument, but in the same you refuse to change the diversity... You want to nerf P as exchange for T, claiming this would be necessary to balance the game. Actually it's an simple excuse to keep 1 Unit massed as core and don't be forced like P to have tons of different units at once.
P's HT are nerfed because they were to "powerful" vs the M&M ball, actually just vs Marines. Toss is being pushed to go Robo, because it's simple better to do it right now. Now there is a claim to nerf Toss Robo, so T can go easy mode and without any effort of diversity to Tanks, because if immortals are not a threat anymore there is no need to build counter measures vs them and you can simple go mass.
In the end nothing would change expect the fact that the core unit for T would change.
what race do you play? Protoss is harder than Terran in the first 4? minutes of the game, after that Protoss can go "easy mode" and use the HTs/Colossus aka "i win button". People need some Brain... seriously if i can win with Stalkers+Blink only against mass Marauders why cant other? Yes yu need more than A-Move and yes you need to micro every stalker but thats what all were missing in sc2. I really have the feeling that most Protoss are used to their "i am Protoss i build just Zealots and Goons and A-Move and if the Terran isnt 2*Times better i should win easy" mentally from sc1. Now times have changed and this is sc2 and now Protoss needs to micro more and to give away mapcontroll first. live with it or go back and play sc1.
On April 05 2010 22:37 lew wrote: But what unit do we have to make as a terran? We really got nothing...
Another prove that T compares all other T units with Marauder and comes to the result that they are not that cost effective as Marauders, so keep building them instead of unit mix.
it has nothing to do with cost effective, its just that everything else gets HARDcountered (way cheaper) by Protoss. - Marines countered by Stalker or HTs or Colossus or any other unit with Guardian Shield - Hellions countered by any ranged Unit - Banshees countered by Any AtA Unit - Thor countered by Immortal - Tank countered by Immortal - Viking countered by Stalker - Ghost countered by Feedback (one HT can Feedback 4 Ghosts rofl) - Reaper countred by everything except slow Zeals
I dont know why i keep seeing these threads .. People just dont know how to play.. its not the units that are imbal its people's mindset in the game that hold's them back from actually playing the game correctly.. Asia server is dominated by Protoss/Zerg for a reason and according to artosis and idra there miles ahead of us ( so they say ). Yes maraurder spam might seem "lame/boring" but We wont see mech TvP unless they get rid of half the toss units and there abbility's.. charge blink pheonix and lets not forget IMMORTAL...
terran would not wins games without the marauder.
if we want to talk about somthing that is broken lets talk about how a queen can put 100000 larva around 1 hatch late game.. and be maxed again without ever making another hatchery.. (not investing any money into being able to reproduce 10000x faster then any other race) while terran and toss have to build more and more gateways rax starports ECT.
On April 06 2010 00:02 RPGabe wrote: I just played a game where I attacked with 7 stimmed maurauder. My enemy had 1 centry, 2 zealots, 2 immortals and 1 stalker. He didn't lose 1 single unit. All thoses protosses are whining because their race was easy in sc1.
Ahh, I didn't say that, Lew did. Please don't quote me as making that goofy army comparison :p
On April 05 2010 21:15 Dx Fx wrote: I serious don't understand the behavior of people.
"We want to make Tanks better vs P". It's an pretty nice argument, but in the same you refuse to change the diversity... You want to nerf P as exchange for T, claiming this would be necessary to balance the game. Actually it's an simple excuse to keep 1 Unit massed as core and don't be forced like P to have tons of different units at once.
P's HT are nerfed because they were to "powerful" vs the M&M ball, actually just vs Marines. Toss is being pushed to go Robo, because it's simple better to do it right now. Now there is a claim to nerf Toss Robo, so T can go easy mode and without any effort of diversity to Tanks, because if immortals are not a threat anymore there is no need to build counter measures vs them and you can simple go mass.
In the end nothing would change expect the fact that the core unit for T would change.
what race do you play? Protoss is harder than Terran in the first 4? minutes of the game, after that Protoss can go "easy mode" and use the HTs/Colossus aka "i win button". People need some Brain... seriously if i can win with Stalkers+Blink only against mass Marauders why cant other? Yes yu need more than A-Move and yes you need to micro every stalker but thats what all were missing in sc2. I really have the feeling that most Protoss are used to their "i am Protoss i build just Zealots and Goons and A-Move and if the Terran isnt 2*Times better i should win easy" mentally from sc1. Now times have changed and this is sc2 and now Protoss needs to micro more and to give away mapcontroll first. live with it or go back and play sc1.
On April 05 2010 22:37 lew wrote: But what unit do we have to make as a terran? We really got nothing...
Another prove that T compares all other T units with Marauder and comes to the result that they are not that cost effective as Marauders, so keep building them instead of unit mix.
it has nothing to do with cost effective, its just that everything else gets HARDcountered (way cheaper) by Protoss. - Marines countered by Stalker or HTs or Colossus or any other unit with Guardian Shield - Hellions countered by any ranged Unit - Banshees countered by Any AtA Unit - Thor countered by Immortal - Tank countered by Immortal - Viking countered by Stalker - Ghost countered by Feedback (one HT can Feedback 4 Ghosts rofl) - Reaper countred by everything except slow Zeals
Lol. Although it is possible to win with mass Stalkers + fast Blink on certain maps, you will never be able to hold it in the long run. That strategy gives you a small window of opportunity to either win or seriously damage your opponent if you have the right timing and macro, but time plays against you and the longer the game goes on, the harder the Marauders will kick your ass. Why ? Simply because Stalkers can't win against Marauders with the same amount of units and same upgrades (should I remind you that Marauders are cheaper, ergo easier to mass up?), due to the fact that Marauders deal 20 damage while Stalkers only deal 14. You can indeed micro with Blink but it won't get you so far.
It is also certain that we have only explored like 15% of the game strategywise, so maybe things will change. But right now and for a few weeks now, the Terran gameplay is stuck in Marauder mode. As long as this doesn't change, the game will stay frozen and new strategies will not see the light of day unless that unit somehow loses the ability to hold off diversified army all by itself.
On April 05 2010 21:15 Dx Fx wrote: I serious don't understand the behavior of people.
"We want to make Tanks better vs P". It's an pretty nice argument, but in the same you refuse to change the diversity... You want to nerf P as exchange for T, claiming this would be necessary to balance the game. Actually it's an simple excuse to keep 1 Unit massed as core and don't be forced like P to have tons of different units at once.
P's HT are nerfed because they were to "powerful" vs the M&M ball, actually just vs Marines. Toss is being pushed to go Robo, because it's simple better to do it right now. Now there is a claim to nerf Toss Robo, so T can go easy mode and without any effort of diversity to Tanks, because if immortals are not a threat anymore there is no need to build counter measures vs them and you can simple go mass.
In the end nothing would change expect the fact that the core unit for T would change.
what race do you play? Protoss is harder than Terran in the first 4? minutes of the game, after that Protoss can go "easy mode" and use the HTs/Colossus aka "i win button". People need some Brain... seriously if i can win with Stalkers+Blink only against mass Marauders why cant other? Yes yu need more than A-Move and yes you need to micro every stalker but thats what all were missing in sc2. I really have the feeling that most Protoss are used to their "i am Protoss i build just Zealots and Goons and A-Move and if the Terran isnt 2*Times better i should win easy" mentally from sc1. Now times have changed and this is sc2 and now Protoss needs to micro more and to give away mapcontroll first. live with it or go back and play sc1.
On April 05 2010 22:37 lew wrote: But what unit do we have to make as a terran? We really got nothing...
Another prove that T compares all other T units with Marauder and comes to the result that they are not that cost effective as Marauders, so keep building them instead of unit mix.
it has nothing to do with cost effective, its just that everything else gets HARDcountered (way cheaper) by Protoss. - Marines countered by Stalker or HTs or Colossus or any other unit with Guardian Shield - Hellions countered by any ranged Unit - Banshees countered by Any AtA Unit - Thor countered by Immortal - Tank countered by Immortal - Viking countered by Stalker - Ghost countered by Feedback (one HT can Feedback 4 Ghosts rofl) - Reaper countred by everything except slow Zeals
Simple lol.... especially the HARD-counter part...
On April 05 2010 21:15 Dx Fx wrote: I serious don't understand the behavior of people.
"We want to make Tanks better vs P". It's an pretty nice argument, but in the same you refuse to change the diversity... You want to nerf P as exchange for T, claiming this would be necessary to balance the game. Actually it's an simple excuse to keep 1 Unit massed as core and don't be forced like P to have tons of different units at once.
P's HT are nerfed because they were to "powerful" vs the M&M ball, actually just vs Marines. Toss is being pushed to go Robo, because it's simple better to do it right now. Now there is a claim to nerf Toss Robo, so T can go easy mode and without any effort of diversity to Tanks, because if immortals are not a threat anymore there is no need to build counter measures vs them and you can simple go mass.
In the end nothing would change expect the fact that the core unit for T would change.
what race do you play? Protoss is harder than Terran in the first 4? minutes of the game, after that Protoss can go "easy mode" and use the HTs/Colossus aka "i win button". People need some Brain... seriously if i can win with Stalkers+Blink only against mass Marauders why cant other? Yes yu need more than A-Move and yes you need to micro every stalker but thats what all were missing in sc2. I really have the feeling that most Protoss are used to their "i am Protoss i build just Zealots and Goons and A-Move and if the Terran isnt 2*Times better i should win easy" mentally from sc1. Now times have changed and this is sc2 and now Protoss needs to micro more and to give away mapcontroll first. live with it or go back and play sc1.
On April 05 2010 22:43 Dx Fx wrote:
On April 05 2010 22:37 lew wrote: But what unit do we have to make as a terran? We really got nothing...
Another prove that T compares all other T units with Marauder and comes to the result that they are not that cost effective as Marauders, so keep building them instead of unit mix.
it has nothing to do with cost effective, its just that everything else gets HARDcountered (way cheaper) by Protoss. - Marines countered by Stalker or HTs or Colossus or any other unit with Guardian Shield - Hellions countered by any ranged Unit - Banshees countered by Any AtA Unit - Thor countered by Immortal - Tank countered by Immortal - Viking countered by Stalker - Ghost countered by Feedback (one HT can Feedback 4 Ghosts rofl) - Reaper countred by everything except slow Zeals
Simple lol.... especially the HARD-counter part...
yes its lol because a stalker needs 4 hits to kill a marine + has more range yes its lol because a HT can kill ~20 rines with 1 Storm yes its lol because a 50/150 HT can Feeback 4*150/150 Ghosts yes its lol because a Immortal can kill (put any ridiculous number here) tanks.
seriously its getting ridiculous that all this C&C guys hijack every balance threads and want to nerf every other that isnt available for thei own race. first of all right now every one sucks in this game and in 2 weeks whole matchups can completly change just by finding a good timingpush or a way to get a faster expansion etc.
yesterday i played wit a firend who made some nice/interesting build that i never saw on ladder and its very simple and very effective. this alone told me that balance discussions at this stage are just stupid, because 80% of the beta user blow totally and the other 20% (Platinum) just explored like 10% of the game.
On April 05 2010 21:15 Dx Fx wrote: I serious don't understand the behavior of people.
"We want to make Tanks better vs P". It's an pretty nice argument, but in the same you refuse to change the diversity... You want to nerf P as exchange for T, claiming this would be necessary to balance the game. Actually it's an simple excuse to keep 1 Unit massed as core and don't be forced like P to have tons of different units at once.
P's HT are nerfed because they were to "powerful" vs the M&M ball, actually just vs Marines. Toss is being pushed to go Robo, because it's simple better to do it right now. Now there is a claim to nerf Toss Robo, so T can go easy mode and without any effort of diversity to Tanks, because if immortals are not a threat anymore there is no need to build counter measures vs them and you can simple go mass.
In the end nothing would change expect the fact that the core unit for T would change.
what race do you play? Protoss is harder than Terran in the first 4? minutes of the game, after that Protoss can go "easy mode" and use the HTs/Colossus aka "i win button". People need some Brain... seriously if i can win with Stalkers+Blink only against mass Marauders why cant other? Yes yu need more than A-Move and yes you need to micro every stalker but thats what all were missing in sc2. I really have the feeling that most Protoss are used to their "i am Protoss i build just Zealots and Goons and A-Move and if the Terran isnt 2*Times better i should win easy" mentally from sc1. Now times have changed and this is sc2 and now Protoss needs to micro more and to give away mapcontroll first. live with it or go back and play sc1.
On April 05 2010 22:43 Dx Fx wrote:
On April 05 2010 22:37 lew wrote: But what unit do we have to make as a terran? We really got nothing...
Another prove that T compares all other T units with Marauder and comes to the result that they are not that cost effective as Marauders, so keep building them instead of unit mix.
it has nothing to do with cost effective, its just that everything else gets HARDcountered (way cheaper) by Protoss. - Marines countered by Stalker or HTs or Colossus or any other unit with Guardian Shield - Hellions countered by any ranged Unit - Banshees countered by Any AtA Unit - Thor countered by Immortal - Tank countered by Immortal - Viking countered by Stalker - Ghost countered by Feedback (one HT can Feedback 4 Ghosts rofl) - Reaper countred by everything except slow Zeals
Simple lol.... especially the HARD-counter part...
yes its lol because a stalker needs 4 hits to kill a marine + has more range yes its lol because a HT can kill ~20 rines with 1 Storm yes its lol because a 50/150 HT can Feeback 4*150/150 Ghosts yes its lol because a Immortal can kill (put any ridiculous number here) tanks.
seriously its getting ridiculous that all this C&C guys hijack every balance threads and want to nerf every other that isnt available for thei own race. first of all right now every one sucks in this game and in 2 weeks whole matchups can completly change just by finding a good timingpush or a way to get a faster expansion etc.
yesterday i played wit a firend who made some nice/interesting build that i never saw on ladder and its very simple and very effective. this alone told me that balance discussions at this stage are just stupid, because 80% of the beta user blow totally and the other 20% (Platinum) just explored like 10% of the game.
Do you even have beta?
Stalkers do 10 damage to marines and marines have 45 hp. Hence it takes 5 hits to kill a marine, not 4. Wtih proper micro stalkers can kill marines, yes, but only before stim comes into play.
1 Storm can kill 99999999 marines if the Terran is stupid enough to leave all his marines in the duration of the storm. If the Terran has basic micro skills 1 Storm won't kill jack shit.
The only time a HT will Feedback 4 Ghost is when they have full energy. If they have full energy the Terran is doing something wrong by never harassing Protoss and letting their HTs get up to full energy. That takes quite a while buddy. Also, 4 Ghost v 1 HT and you can't get off one EMP? Really now?
Immortals can kill a large number of tanks but if you're trying to attack Immortals with tanks you deserve to lose. Don't get tanks when they get Immortals. Get marines. They're cheaper and with stim they eat through Immortals like they aren't even there.
On April 05 2010 21:52 lew wrote: I just played a game where I attacked with 7 stimmed maurauder. My enemy had 1 centry, 2 zealots, 2 immortals and 1 stalker. He didn't lose 1 single unit. All thoses protosses are whining because their race was easy in sc1.
It's actually pretty close in terms of resources.
7 marauders with stim is 850 minerals 325 gas the protoss army in that example is 875 minerals, 350 gas.
Huh? 7 Marauders have half the gas cost of the Protoss army (175). Not to mention it's a lower tech so you don't even need tier 2 structures such as robo bay (which is another 200 gas and 200 minerals). On top of that it takes much longer to get to the P tech level.
On April 06 2010 00:25 Lz wrote: I dont know why i keep seeing these threads .. People just dont know how to play.. its not the units that are imbal its people's mindset in the game that hold's them back from actually playing the game correctly..
What the f.. are you serious?
Please explain how people can change their "mindset" to deal with a perma-snare unit that moves like a speedling with stim and has tank hp/armor?
I have seen good asian toss play, but i've never seen one foil marauder cheese.
Sorry, but Immortals cannot kill tons of Tanks. If the ratio is 3vs1 without any micro the Tanks will rape the immortals ( and that should be this way, after 3 Tanks cost much more as 1 Immortal). Ratio is 2vs1 then the favor is to Immortals but Siege Tanks have the Range advantage of 2, so it's a battle of micro. In 1vs1, don't even try to mess with Tanks vs Immortals.
If you siege up Tanks vs Immortals you deserve to lose since you waste all your dmg.
On April 05 2010 21:15 Dx Fx wrote: I serious don't understand the behavior of people.
"We want to make Tanks better vs P". It's an pretty nice argument, but in the same you refuse to change the diversity... You want to nerf P as exchange for T, claiming this would be necessary to balance the game. Actually it's an simple excuse to keep 1 Unit massed as core and don't be forced like P to have tons of different units at once.
P's HT are nerfed because they were to "powerful" vs the M&M ball, actually just vs Marines. Toss is being pushed to go Robo, because it's simple better to do it right now. Now there is a claim to nerf Toss Robo, so T can go easy mode and without any effort of diversity to Tanks, because if immortals are not a threat anymore there is no need to build counter measures vs them and you can simple go mass.
In the end nothing would change expect the fact that the core unit for T would change.
what race do you play? Protoss is harder than Terran in the first 4? minutes of the game, after that Protoss can go "easy mode" and use the HTs/Colossus aka "i win button". People need some Brain... seriously if i can win with Stalkers+Blink only against mass Marauders why cant other? Yes yu need more than A-Move and yes you need to micro every stalker but thats what all were missing in sc2. I really have the feeling that most Protoss are used to their "i am Protoss i build just Zealots and Goons and A-Move and if the Terran isnt 2*Times better i should win easy" mentally from sc1. Now times have changed and this is sc2 and now Protoss needs to micro more and to give away mapcontroll first. live with it or go back and play sc1.
On April 05 2010 22:43 Dx Fx wrote:
On April 05 2010 22:37 lew wrote: But what unit do we have to make as a terran? We really got nothing...
Another prove that T compares all other T units with Marauder and comes to the result that they are not that cost effective as Marauders, so keep building them instead of unit mix.
it has nothing to do with cost effective, its just that everything else gets HARDcountered (way cheaper) by Protoss. - Marines countered by Stalker or HTs or Colossus or any other unit with Guardian Shield - Hellions countered by any ranged Unit - Banshees countered by Any AtA Unit - Thor countered by Immortal - Tank countered by Immortal - Viking countered by Stalker - Ghost countered by Feedback (one HT can Feedback 4 Ghosts rofl) - Reaper countred by everything except slow Zeals
Simple lol.... especially the HARD-counter part...
yes its lol because a stalker needs 4 hits to kill a marine + has more range yes its lol because a HT can kill ~20 rines with 1 Storm yes its lol because a 50/150 HT can Feeback 4*150/150 Ghosts yes its lol because a Immortal can kill (put any ridiculous number here) tanks.
seriously its getting ridiculous that all this C&C guys hijack every balance threads and want to nerf every other that isnt available for thei own race. first of all right now every one sucks in this game and in 2 weeks whole matchups can completly change just by finding a good timingpush or a way to get a faster expansion etc.
yesterday i played wit a firend who made some nice/interesting build that i never saw on ladder and its very simple and very effective. this alone told me that balance discussions at this stage are just stupid, because 80% of the beta user blow totally and the other 20% (Platinum) just explored like 10% of the game.
Do you even have beta?
Stalkers do 10 damage to marines and marines have 45 hp. Hence it takes 5 hits to kill a marine, not 4. Wtih proper micro stalkers can kill marines, yes, but only before stim comes into play.
1 Storm can kill 99999999 marines if the Terran is stupid enough to leave all his marines in the duration of the storm. If the Terran has basic micro skills 1 Storm won't kill jack shit.
The only time a HT will Feedback 4 Ghost is when they have full energy. If they have full energy the Terran is doing something wrong by never harassing Protoss and letting their HTs get up to full energy. That takes quite a while buddy. Also, 4 Ghost v 1 HT and you can't get off one EMP? Really now?
Immortals can kill a large number of tanks but if you're trying to attack Immortals with tanks you deserve to lose. Don't get tanks when they get Immortals. Get marines. They're cheaper and with stim they eat through Immortals like they aren't even there.
yes i have the beta and atm i am platinum place 7 with 1450-1500 points. I played like 80% of my games with P and 10% T and 10% Z. 1) marines without Stim suck anyway thats why i said 4 hits since marines are nearly useless without it (45HP - 10HP =35HP) and at that moment where Guardian shield comes into the Game they make -33% damage. seriously 4 Damage vs Protoss units without armor is a joke, they just regenerate the lost shield after 10 sec without beeing under fire. 2) most of the times you dont see early medivacs because they are way to expensive and need FAX + PORT which is a long tech compared to sc1 with only need of ACADMEY (which was needed anyway for range/stim upgrade) for Medics. 3) Medivacs heal imo way slower than Medics + they are expensive + Marauders eat up so much mana + they are really stupid compared to sc1 medics. 4) no you dont want to get marines for immortals you want to get ghosts and as a result you get some rounds of marines to save gas for ghosts. seriously you dont want to get marines they make nearly no damage and get destroyed by nearly everything. the shield upgrade makes it a bit better so they can take 1 hit more by stalkers.
edit 5) with observers you are able to shift Feedback Ghosts with 2 HTs before you attack and if you put some of your HTs into warpprism you can storm the shit out of the terran even if you didnt feedbacked all ghosts with the first 2 HTs 6) on most of the Maps you have cliffs in the middle which makes feedback + storm so much easier.
sure without putting an observer over the opponent army and without knowing where the army is and without HTs in warpprism and without abusing the maps for the own favor and without knowing that you will win the fight but still going for the attack from a bad postion and without a little bit of micro you will lose against any decent player. imo thats something that should be the way it is.
On April 05 2010 21:15 Dx Fx wrote: I serious don't understand the behavior of people.
"We want to make Tanks better vs P". It's an pretty nice argument, but in the same you refuse to change the diversity... You want to nerf P as exchange for T, claiming this would be necessary to balance the game. Actually it's an simple excuse to keep 1 Unit massed as core and don't be forced like P to have tons of different units at once.
P's HT are nerfed because they were to "powerful" vs the M&M ball, actually just vs Marines. Toss is being pushed to go Robo, because it's simple better to do it right now. Now there is a claim to nerf Toss Robo, so T can go easy mode and without any effort of diversity to Tanks, because if immortals are not a threat anymore there is no need to build counter measures vs them and you can simple go mass.
In the end nothing would change expect the fact that the core unit for T would change.
what race do you play? Protoss is harder than Terran in the first 4? minutes of the game, after that Protoss can go "easy mode" and use the HTs/Colossus aka "i win button". People need some Brain... seriously if i can win with Stalkers+Blink only against mass Marauders why cant other? Yes yu need more than A-Move and yes you need to micro every stalker but thats what all were missing in sc2. I really have the feeling that most Protoss are used to their "i am Protoss i build just Zealots and Goons and A-Move and if the Terran isnt 2*Times better i should win easy" mentally from sc1. Now times have changed and this is sc2 and now Protoss needs to micro more and to give away mapcontroll first. live with it or go back and play sc1.
On April 05 2010 22:43 Dx Fx wrote:
On April 05 2010 22:37 lew wrote: But what unit do we have to make as a terran? We really got nothing...
Another prove that T compares all other T units with Marauder and comes to the result that they are not that cost effective as Marauders, so keep building them instead of unit mix.
it has nothing to do with cost effective, its just that everything else gets HARDcountered (way cheaper) by Protoss. - Marines countered by Stalker or HTs or Colossus or any other unit with Guardian Shield - Hellions countered by any ranged Unit - Banshees countered by Any AtA Unit - Thor countered by Immortal - Tank countered by Immortal - Viking countered by Stalker - Ghost countered by Feedback (one HT can Feedback 4 Ghosts rofl) - Reaper countred by everything except slow Zeals
Simple lol.... especially the HARD-counter part...
yes its lol because a stalker needs 4 hits to kill a marine + has more range yes its lol because a HT can kill ~20 rines with 1 Storm yes its lol because a 50/150 HT can Feeback 4*150/150 Ghosts yes its lol because a Immortal can kill (put any ridiculous number here) tanks.
seriously its getting ridiculous that all this C&C guys hijack every balance threads and want to nerf every other that isnt available for thei own race. first of all right now every one sucks in this game and in 2 weeks whole matchups can completly change just by finding a good timingpush or a way to get a faster expansion etc.
yesterday i played wit a firend who made some nice/interesting build that i never saw on ladder and its very simple and very effective. this alone told me that balance discussions at this stage are just stupid, because 80% of the beta user blow totally and the other 20% (Platinum) just explored like 10% of the game.
Do you even have beta?
Stalkers do 10 damage to marines and marines have 45 hp. Hence it takes 5 hits to kill a marine, not 4. Wtih proper micro stalkers can kill marines, yes, but only before stim comes into play.
1 Storm can kill 99999999 marines if the Terran is stupid enough to leave all his marines in the duration of the storm. If the Terran has basic micro skills 1 Storm won't kill jack shit.
The only time a HT will Feedback 4 Ghost is when they have full energy. If they have full energy the Terran is doing something wrong by never harassing Protoss and letting their HTs get up to full energy. That takes quite a while buddy. Also, 4 Ghost v 1 HT and you can't get off one EMP? Really now?
Immortals can kill a large number of tanks but if you're trying to attack Immortals with tanks you deserve to lose. Don't get tanks when they get Immortals. Get marines. They're cheaper and with stim they eat through Immortals like they aren't even there.
yes i have the beta and atm i am platinum place 7 with 1450-1500 points. I played like 80% of my games with P and 10% T and 10% Z. 1) marines without Stim suck anyway thats why i said 4 hits since marines are nearly useless without it (45HP - 10HP =35HP) and at that moment where Guardian shield comes into the Game they make -33% damage. seriously 4 Damage vs Protoss units without armor is a joke, they just regenerate the lost shield after 10 sec without beeing under fire. 2) most of the times you dont see early medivacs because they are way to expensive and need FAX + PORT which is a long tech compared to sc1 with only need of ACADMEY (which was needed anyway for range/stim upgrade) for Medics. 3) Medivacs heal imo way slower than Medics + they are expensive + Marauders eat up so much mana + they are really stupid compared to sc1 medics. 4) no you dont want to get marines for immortals you want to get ghosts and as a result you get some rounds of marines to save gas for ghosts. seriously you dont want to get marines they make nearly no damage and get destroyed by nearly everything. the shield upgrade makes it a bit better so they can take 1 hit more by stalkers.
edit 5) with observers you are able to shift Feedback Ghosts with 2 HTs before you attack and if you put some of your HTs into warpprism you can storm the shit out of the terran even if you didnt feedbacked all ghosts with the first 2 HTs 6) on most of the Maps you have cliffs in the middle which makes feedback + storm so much easier.
sure without putting an observer over the opponent army and without knowing where the army is and without HTs in warpprism and without abusing the maps for the own favor and without knowing that you will win the fight but still going for the attack from a bad postion and without a little bit of micro you will lose against any decent player. imo thats something that should be the way it is.
That's beautiful. But that's also assuming your opponent is in some sort of vegetative state. Scan can reveal Observers, so can EMP. As a Protoss, you NEED vision advantage over the Terran to burn Ghosts with Feedback, otherwise you won't have time to click on them before the AoE strikes and destroys all your army's shields.
On April 05 2010 15:53 tofucake wrote: I haven't read the entire thread yet, but what about Marauders only slowing when they hit life points (ie: not Protoss' shields). That would let Zealots get in closer to have a chance at doing some actual damage. And with charge they would be able to catch up when Marauders are micro'd away. Plus a buff to mech, like everyone said (and/or nerf to Immortal). Obviously this doesn't affect TvZ, but Roaches are too good ATM for Marauders to get a vZ nerf.
This is actually a pretty interesting idea.
its ok but easyer way agian would just be zealots and zerglings immune to slow. Cause you could still kite and kill big groups of zealots with that nerf. Zealots and zerglings need to be the counter all the time not half the time
On April 05 2010 18:02 Kylig wrote: So zealots hard counters marines early and focuses the T to wall in and bunker if P go fast zealots and that so fine right?
But then T gets a unit that counters zealots and thats ju so overpowered because the P just cant mass 1-2 units and win anylonger... allow me to laugh out LOUD :D
The FACT is P has HARD counters for every single T unit there is! Colossi>all T bio Immortal>all T mech Stalkers/void rays>all T air
So basicly the only choice for a T to win against an equaly skilled P opponent is to go fast marauders and hope then P player is retarded enough not to use any sentrys,'
Sure I think its wrong but the sollution isnt to nerf the marauder, its not actually nerf protoss overall! Nerf the living shit out of immortals! Remove shield or remove bonus dmg, either you get a durable unit against T mech or the other way you get a glass cannon that can rape all T mech if microed.
Then nerf the colossi to the ground, then we can nerf the marauders because now T can actually use marines and tanks.
T is allwasy forced to wall in at the starts thats what we do. But as soon as you get marauders toss them infront of the rines and watch the zealots get raped as they try and get thro the meat the marauders as the rines that do more dmg to the zealots kill them from the back.
Also T has counter to all of P late game just like P has counter to all T's late game its all on how you manges them and the ratio you get. Also the spells you get off from your casters. Think late game is really good right now for TvP maybe a bit harder for T but think its all good.
Just need to fix the early game omg cheese marauder rape.
On April 05 2010 19:09 Paladia wrote: Any reason why the Marauder easily beats Stalkers in 1v1 (and even more so in bigger fights) when they cost like half of what the Stalker does, yet they can be healed, stimmed, not EMPed and has a passive slow attack?
Don't come with something like "Stalker can attack air so its balanced" since there is never anything the Marauder would ever even want to attack in air in TvP, as the Protoss air is extremely lackluster. So even if they could attack air as well there would be no difference for the balance of the match-up.
As Stalker, Roach and Marauder are way too similar in design I would suggest making the Marauder melee (with some altered stats), that would balance it and make the tier 1.5 more unique.
Marauders are the counter to stalkers .... it has been said so by blizzard deal with it ?
Also blink harsment by stalkers is crazy and has sooo much potential. You can blink anywhere on map you have a obs.
melee unit i don't even know what to say to that LOL
Most people in this thread seem to think Marauders are OP late game and in there dmg somehow where many units out dps them for a lower cost and build time somtimes.
Lets make this clear marauders are op because of the early/mid game for one reason. They lack any counter. The units that are made to counter them Zealots and zerglings get kited due to the slow. If the marauders are not microed they lose very easy to zerglings and zealots. But due to the slow they can micro these units to death. Keep in mind both zealots and zerglings do MORE dps then a marauder.
Fix make zealots and zerglings immune to slow both are cheaper and faster build time (well zealot 33 sec) do more dps and rape marauders if they can reachs them. Still will be able to back up and shoot till they get near you and will still need to micro to avoid surrounds and move dmg units out of melee range.
Also this will force terrans to go a mix again marauders and marines the rines to be behind the meat shield the maruader as the rines do the dmg to the light targets. Otherwise build a bunch of marauders oh well fuck him build a bunch of zealots or zerglings and laugh.
Units that are said to be the counter to marauders are the counter ! Late game not really changes much. Early game cheese that makes pure marauder builds OP gone.
I didn't realize at first that Zealots/Zerglings were the supposed counter to Marauders since I normally see Roaches/Immortals to take care of Marauders. Blizzard should just rework the Marauders so that players would be getting them just for the slow.
EDIT: Ok, I am an idiot for not realizing that Roaches/Immortals melt to Marauders because of the fucking HARDCOUNTER.
On April 06 2010 03:35 lolaloc wrote: I didn't realize at first that Zealots/Zerglings were the supposed counter to Marauders since I normally see Roaches/Immortals to take care of Marauders. Blizzard should just rework the Marauders so that players would be getting them just for the slow.
I seriously disagree with you, if you do that, bio will be completely useless in most of the matchups again as the +damage vs armoured wouldn't be useful if they made it so you got them just for slow. An army full of just marines really wouldn't work in TvP, TvZ or TvT as they would just get rolled by the different stronger units.
Terran need marauders to stay as they are to allow them to go bio in the matchups and not get locked into teching every game. perhaps they could just put some form of internal cooldown on slow, so if a unit has been affected by it, it's immune from slow from the next few shots?
On April 06 2010 03:35 lolaloc wrote: I didn't realize at first that Zealots/Zerglings were the supposed counter to Marauders since I normally see Roaches/Immortals to take care of Marauders. Blizzard should just rework the Marauders so that players would be getting them just for the slow.
Marauders are the counter to roachs in blizzards eye. They are the meat for the hydras in the back like the marauders are the meat for the rines in the back but the hydras do alot more dmg lol.
On April 05 2010 19:09 Paladia wrote: Any reason why the Marauder easily beats Stalkers in 1v1 (and even more so in bigger fights) when they cost like half of what the Stalker does, yet they can be healed, stimmed, not EMPed and has a passive slow attack?
Don't come with something like "Stalker can attack air so its balanced" since there is never anything the Marauder would ever even want to attack in air in TvP, as the Protoss air is extremely lackluster. So even if they could attack air as well there would be no difference for the balance of the match-up.
As Stalker, Roach and Marauder are way too similar in design I would suggest making the Marauder melee (with some altered stats), that would balance it and make the tier 1.5 more unique.
Marauders are the counter to stalkers .... it has been said so by blizzard deal with it ?
Also blink harsment by stalkers is crazy and has sooo much potential. You can blink anywhere on map you have a obs.
melee unit i don't even know what to say to that LOL
Yeah, and Blizzard also said Marauders are suppose to be weak against Zealots. But sure, if they make Zealots strong against Marauders (like they are suppose to) I'm fine with them being strong against Stalkers. Right now 5 Zealots won't even damage a couple of Marauders. 5 Marauders even beat 5 Ultralisk, which their slow doesn't even work against and costs 5 times as much.
Cause right now they are extremely strong against both zealots and stalkers, which is just wrong.
On April 05 2010 22:37 lew wrote: But what unit do we have to make as a terran? We really got nothing...
I disagree. I absolutely love massing up Marines without Medevacs and siege tanks with Raven support. Raven turret harass is absolutely underrated, you can kill 5-6 drones in two seconds. Hellions have the potential to be interesting but die like flies in late game due to critical design flaws in collision sizes in the game.
Some games I'll go mass air and transition into BC's because I have map control with vikings/banshees. There are so many possibilities with Terran. Marauder just makes the games BORING and slightly easier to win.
Remove the three units of imbalance completely, or nerf them.
you must have never seen tier 2 spell called (fungal growth) on a marines... leaves them with like 10hp... and Toss tier 2 units or tier 3 spell Storm... will leave them with no hp in SECONDS
On April 06 2010 03:35 lolaloc wrote: I didn't realize at first that Zealots/Zerglings were the supposed counter to Marauders since I normally see Roaches/Immortals to take care of Marauders. Blizzard should just rework the Marauders so that players would be getting them just for the slow.
I seriously disagree with you, if you do that, bio will be completely useless in most of the matchups again as the +damage vs armoured wouldn't be useful if they made it so you got them just for slow. An army full of just marines really wouldn't work in TvP, TvZ or TvT as they would just get rolled by the different stronger units.
Terran need marauders to stay as they are to allow them to go bio in the matchups and not get locked into teching every game. perhaps they could just put some form of internal cooldown on slow, so if a unit has been affected by it, it's immune from slow from the next few shots?
ok cool idea but still could kite the units that are made to counter them unless its a really long CD but then it effecets other targets of slow .
Quick and easy way just make them pure immune they should not counter there counters. Period lol
Also this would be the best way to keep them as they are no dmg change no health change. Can still be the meat of the shield. Slow is still there to catch the retreating units and slow the incoming banlings of death and slow harsment units.
Really just make the 2 tier 1 melee units immune to slow.
On April 06 2010 03:38 Qikz wrote: I seriously disagree with you, if you do that, bio will be completely useless in most of the matchups again as the +damage vs armoured wouldn't be useful if they made it so you got them just for slow. An army full of just marines really wouldn't work in TvP, TvZ or TvT as they would just get rolled by the different stronger units.
Terran need marauders to stay as they are to allow them to go bio in the matchups and not get locked into teching every game. perhaps they could just put some form of internal cooldown on slow, so if a unit has been affected by it, it's immune from slow from the next few shots?
So you would rather have stale gameplay then? It seems you have accepted the role of marauders being the hard-counter of armored units. Well if this is the case then, I don't see the logic of giving it slow other than making the unit more overpowered.
On April 05 2010 19:09 Paladia wrote: Any reason why the Marauder easily beats Stalkers in 1v1 (and even more so in bigger fights) when they cost like half of what the Stalker does, yet they can be healed, stimmed, not EMPed and has a passive slow attack?
Don't come with something like "Stalker can attack air so its balanced" since there is never anything the Marauder would ever even want to attack in air in TvP, as the Protoss air is extremely lackluster. So even if they could attack air as well there would be no difference for the balance of the match-up.
As Stalker, Roach and Marauder are way too similar in design I would suggest making the Marauder melee (with some altered stats), that would balance it and make the tier 1.5 more unique.
Marauders are the counter to stalkers .... it has been said so by blizzard deal with it ?
Also blink harsment by stalkers is crazy and has sooo much potential. You can blink anywhere on map you have a obs.
melee unit i don't even know what to say to that LOL
Yeah, and Blizzard also said Marauders are suppose to be weak against Zealots. But sure, if they make Zealots strong against Marauders (like they are suppose to) I'm fine with them being strong against Stalkers. Right now 5 Zealots won't even damage a couple of Marauders. 5 Marauders even beat 5 Ultralisk, which their slow doesn't even work against and costs 5 times as much.
Cause right now they are extremely strong against both zealots and stalkers, which is just wrong.
5 marauders can't beat 5 ultras nicce try tho adn agian my top post fix the zealot problem. (page 22 top)
On April 05 2010 19:09 Paladia wrote: Any reason why the Marauder easily beats Stalkers in 1v1 (and even more so in bigger fights) when they cost like half of what the Stalker does, yet they can be healed, stimmed, not EMPed and has a passive slow attack?
Don't come with something like "Stalker can attack air so its balanced" since there is never anything the Marauder would ever even want to attack in air in TvP, as the Protoss air is extremely lackluster. So even if they could attack air as well there would be no difference for the balance of the match-up.
As Stalker, Roach and Marauder are way too similar in design I would suggest making the Marauder melee (with some altered stats), that would balance it and make the tier 1.5 more unique.
Marauders are the counter to stalkers .... it has been said so by blizzard deal with it ?
Also blink harsment by stalkers is crazy and has sooo much potential. You can blink anywhere on map you have a obs.
melee unit i don't even know what to say to that LOL
Yeah, and Blizzard also said Marauders are suppose to be weak against Zealots. But sure, if they make Zealots strong against Marauders (like they are suppose to) I'm fine with them being strong against Stalkers. Right now 5 Zealots won't even damage a couple of Marauders. 5 Marauders even beat 5 Ultralisk, which their slow doesn't even work against and costs 5 times as much.
Cause right now they are extremely strong against both zealots and stalkers, which is just wrong.
5 marauders can't beat 5 ultras nicce try tho adn agian my top post fix the zealot problem. (page 22 top)
Actually, they can. Just stim and move around, ultras aint going to get close.
On April 05 2010 19:09 Paladia wrote: Any reason why the Marauder easily beats Stalkers in 1v1 (and even more so in bigger fights) when they cost like half of what the Stalker does, yet they can be healed, stimmed, not EMPed and has a passive slow attack?
Don't come with something like "Stalker can attack air so its balanced" since there is never anything the Marauder would ever even want to attack in air in TvP, as the Protoss air is extremely lackluster. So even if they could attack air as well there would be no difference for the balance of the match-up.
As Stalker, Roach and Marauder are way too similar in design I would suggest making the Marauder melee (with some altered stats), that would balance it and make the tier 1.5 more unique.
Marauders are the counter to stalkers .... it has been said so by blizzard deal with it ?
Also blink harsment by stalkers is crazy and has sooo much potential. You can blink anywhere on map you have a obs.
melee unit i don't even know what to say to that LOL
Yeah, and Blizzard also said Marauders are suppose to be weak against Zealots. But sure, if they make Zealots strong against Marauders (like they are suppose to) I'm fine with them being strong against Stalkers. Right now 5 Zealots won't even damage a couple of Marauders. 5 Marauders even beat 5 Ultralisk, which their slow doesn't even work against and costs 5 times as much.
Cause right now they are extremely strong against both zealots and stalkers, which is just wrong.
5 marauders can't beat 5 ultras nicce try tho adn agian my top post fix the zealot problem. (page 22 top)
Actually, they can. Just stim and move around, ultras aint going to get close.
till stim wears off and they die. Also not to mention ultras are faster then stimed marauders on creep
On April 06 2010 03:38 Qikz wrote: I seriously disagree with you, if you do that, bio will be completely useless in most of the matchups again as the +damage vs armoured wouldn't be useful if they made it so you got them just for slow. An army full of just marines really wouldn't work in TvP, TvZ or TvT as they would just get rolled by the different stronger units.
Terran need marauders to stay as they are to allow them to go bio in the matchups and not get locked into teching every game. perhaps they could just put some form of internal cooldown on slow, so if a unit has been affected by it, it's immune from slow from the next few shots?
So you would rather have stale gameplay then? It seems you have accepted the role of marauders being the hard-counter of armored units. Well if this is the case then, I don't see the logic of giving it slow other than making the unit more overpowered.
@Qikz : Are you complaining that you don't want Terran to have to tech to stay in the game when Protoss has to tech up at least two trees to even be competitive? (Robotics and Templar)
@xnub : Do you know what a medivac is? Are you assuming that Terran won't have medivacs when Zerg has got Ultralisks?
The problem is that all of the other Terran units are a much larger investment than the Marauder and don't deal as much damage as a bunch of Marauders do. The Marauder should be changed in this way:
-lower hp -increased build time -lower mineral cost -lower base attack strength but maintain bonus damage to armored. -maintain slow as it is.
This way, it will not be as useful on its own than if it were supported by other units of different Tiers.
On April 06 2010 03:38 Qikz wrote: I seriously disagree with you, if you do that, bio will be completely useless in most of the matchups again as the +damage vs armoured wouldn't be useful if they made it so you got them just for slow. An army full of just marines really wouldn't work in TvP, TvZ or TvT as they would just get rolled by the different stronger units.
Terran need marauders to stay as they are to allow them to go bio in the matchups and not get locked into teching every game. perhaps they could just put some form of internal cooldown on slow, so if a unit has been affected by it, it's immune from slow from the next few shots?
So you would rather have stale gameplay then? It seems you have accepted the role of marauders being the hard-counter of armored units. Well if this is the case then, I don't see the logic of giving it slow other than making the unit more overpowered.
@Qikz : Are you complaining that you don't want Terran to have to tech to stay in the game when Protoss has to tech up at least two trees to even be competitive? (Robotics and Templar)
The problem is that all of the other Terran units are a much larger investment than the Marauder and don't deal as much damage as a bunch of Marauders do. The Marauder should be changed in this way:
-lower hp -increased build time -lower mineral cost -lower base attack strength but maintain bonus damage to armored. -maintain slow as it is.
This way, it will not be as useful on its own than if it were supported by other units of different Tiers.
Again read top page 22 top post cause this does not fix the problem with marauders you are trying to fix a problem that is not there with these changes.
On April 06 2010 03:35 lolaloc wrote: I didn't realize at first that Zealots/Zerglings were the supposed counter to Marauders since I normally see Roaches/Immortals to take care of Marauders. Blizzard should just rework the Marauders so that players would be getting them just for the slow.
I seriously disagree with you, if you do that, bio will be completely useless in most of the matchups again as the +damage vs armoured wouldn't be useful if they made it so you got them just for slow. An army full of just marines really wouldn't work in TvP, TvZ or TvT as they would just get rolled by the different stronger units.
Terran need marauders to stay as they are to allow them to go bio in the matchups and not get locked into teching every game. perhaps they could just put some form of internal cooldown on slow, so if a unit has been affected by it, it's immune from slow from the next few shots?
I think instead of getting marauders just for the slow, it should be the other way around, they should do just the damage, the slowing effect is just rediculous. marauders have no hard counter really in the early game. speedlings are the only unit thats similar to hard counter but in the mid game that hard counter does not exist due to being killed by marines or tanks before they can even touch the marauders. In the mid game, if zerg uses their 2 hard counters (roach, ling) vs the terran hard counters (marine marauder), if both players micro properly its impossible for zerg to win. The marines outrange the lings to protect the marauders and the marauders outrange the roaches to protect the marines. Sure you can get hydra or whatever, but the fact remains that there is no hard counter against marauder in mid game or later.
On April 06 2010 03:35 lolaloc wrote: I didn't realize at first that Zealots/Zerglings were the supposed counter to Marauders since I normally see Roaches/Immortals to take care of Marauders. Blizzard should just rework the Marauders so that players would be getting them just for the slow.
I seriously disagree with you, if you do that, bio will be completely useless in most of the matchups again as the +damage vs armoured wouldn't be useful if they made it so you got them just for slow. An army full of just marines really wouldn't work in TvP, TvZ or TvT as they would just get rolled by the different stronger units.
Terran need marauders to stay as they are to allow them to go bio in the matchups and not get locked into teching every game. perhaps they could just put some form of internal cooldown on slow, so if a unit has been affected by it, it's immune from slow from the next few shots?
I think instead of getting marauders just for the slow, it should be the other way around, they should do just the damage, the slowing effect is just rediculous. marauders have no hard counter really in the early game. speedlings are the only unit thats similar to hard counter but in the mid game that hard counter does not exist due to being killed by marines or tanks before they can even touch the marauders. In the mid game, if zerg uses their 2 hard counters (roach, ling) vs the terran hard counters (marine marauder), if both players micro properly its impossible for zerg to win. The marines outrange the lings to protect the marauders and the marauders outrange the roaches to protect the marines. Sure you can get hydra or whatever, but the fact remains that there is no hard counter against marauder in mid game or later.
1 marine do more dmg to light target then 1 marauders 2 marines do more dmg to armored target then 1 maruder (lower cost lower build time)
just figue i point that out
Also hydras are the counter to marauder mid/late game so i have no idea what you are talking about there.
Roachs as the meat with hydras in the back rape MM (hydras and roachs both do more dmg then both MM) besides when he hits the roachs
I just came to the conclusion that Marauders have a dual role of countering armored units and melee units. Devs should make up their minds and choose between: a) +dmg vs armored b) passive slow on attack
It's because of that dual role that causes Zerg and Protoss to get higher tech units just to deal with Marauders being Lair Tech Units and Robotics/Templar respectively.
On April 06 2010 04:21 lolaloc wrote: I just came to the conclusion that Marauders have a dual role of countering armored units and melee units. Devs should make up their minds and choose between: a) +dmg vs armored b) passive slow on attack
It's because of that dual role that causes Zerg and Protoss to get higher tech units just to deal with Marauders being Lair Tech Units and Robotics/Templar respectively.
yes ty but they can't do # 1 cause then bio would have no armor counter.
#2 removeing it would make the unit very boreing and would need to add in somthing else for it to do. Removing the slow effect from Zealots and zerglings only don't have to add a new ability to balance not a boreing unit and they still can slow lots of units to be usefull.
On April 06 2010 04:31 xnub wrote: yes ty but they can't do # 1 cause then bio would have no armor counter.
What? You like the hard counter system? Can't Terran players just be more creative in dealing with Stalkers, Immortals and Colossi?
On April 06 2010 04:31 xnub wrote: #2 removeing it would make the unit very boreing and would need to add in somthing else for it to do. Removing the slow effect from Zealots and zerglings only don't have to add a new ability to balance not a boreing unit and they still can slow lots of units to be usefull.
I am leaning on the first choice. But anyway, I think restricting the slow to being only applicable to armored units wouldn't make a lot of sense. Why the fuck would you need to slow them?
On April 06 2010 04:31 xnub wrote: #2 removeing it would make the unit very boreing and would need to add in somthing else for it to do. Removing the slow effect from Zealots and zerglings only don't have to add a new ability to balance not a boreing unit and they still can slow lots of units to be usefull.
I am leaning on the first choice. But anyway, I think restricting the slow to being only applicable to armored units wouldn't make a lot of sense. Why the fuck would you need to slow them?
The hard counter system is part of SC2 got to deal with it they aren't changing it now
adn it would not be restricting the slow to just armored targets still hits Hellions, reapers, marines, ghost, Sentrys , HT, DT , Hydras, Drones/svc/ probes. you get the point.
Also the point of still haveing the slow is what it should have been very good for stopping fast moveing harsment units. ( Hellions, reapers ) Good at getting extra kills from retreating enemys a few extra stalkers hydras w/e. Good vs slowing a HT or ghost that gets caught by a scan and trys to run out of it. Also at slowing running probs from drops or attacks.
On April 06 2010 04:43 xnub wrote: The hard counter system is part of SC2 got to deal with it they aren't changing it now
I guess you are completely happy playing with your Rock/Paper/Scissors game with better graphics and automatchmaking.
On April 06 2010 04:43 xnub wrote: adn it would not be restricting the slow to just armored targets still hits Hellions, reapers, marines, ghost, Sentrys , HT, DT , Hydras, Drones/svc/ probes. you get the point.
This is a very uncreative solution IMO. Are you saying that the devs would need to break fundamental SC2 rules just to make a special exemption for the Marauder? They need to be formal about restrictions. I mean, why would it be able to slow a Reaper which is biological & light but not possible for a Zealot which has similar traits???
On April 06 2010 04:43 xnub wrote: Also the point of still haveing the slow is what it should have been very good for stopping fast moveing harsment units. ( Hellions, reapers ) Good at getting extra kills from retreating enemys a few extra stalkers hydras w/e. Good vs slowing a HT or ghost that gets caught by a scan and trys to run out of it. Also at slowing running probs from drops or attacks.
Many things slow would still be good for
This is the problem of the Marauder. It is good for many things.
On April 05 2010 21:15 Dx Fx wrote: I serious don't understand the behavior of people.
"We want to make Tanks better vs P". It's an pretty nice argument, but in the same you refuse to change the diversity... You want to nerf P as exchange for T, claiming this would be necessary to balance the game. Actually it's an simple excuse to keep 1 Unit massed as core and don't be forced like P to have tons of different units at once.
P's HT are nerfed because they were to "powerful" vs the M&M ball, actually just vs Marines. Toss is being pushed to go Robo, because it's simple better to do it right now. Now there is a claim to nerf Toss Robo, so T can go easy mode and without any effort of diversity to Tanks, because if immortals are not a threat anymore there is no need to build counter measures vs them and you can simple go mass.
In the end nothing would change expect the fact that the core unit for T would change.
what race do you play? Protoss is harder than Terran in the first 4? minutes of the game, after that Protoss can go "easy mode" and use the HTs/Colossus aka "i win button". People need some Brain... seriously if i can win with Stalkers+Blink only against mass Marauders why cant other? Yes yu need more than A-Move and yes you need to micro every stalker but thats what all were missing in sc2. I really have the feeling that most Protoss are used to their "i am Protoss i build just Zealots and Goons and A-Move and if the Terran isnt 2*Times better i should win easy" mentally from sc1. Now times have changed and this is sc2 and now Protoss needs to micro more and to give away mapcontroll first. live with it or go back and play sc1.
On April 05 2010 22:43 Dx Fx wrote:
On April 05 2010 22:37 lew wrote: But what unit do we have to make as a terran? We really got nothing...
Another prove that T compares all other T units with Marauder and comes to the result that they are not that cost effective as Marauders, so keep building them instead of unit mix.
it has nothing to do with cost effective, its just that everything else gets HARDcountered (way cheaper) by Protoss. - Marines countered by Stalker or HTs or Colossus or any other unit with Guardian Shield - Hellions countered by any ranged Unit - Banshees countered by Any AtA Unit - Thor countered by Immortal - Tank countered by Immortal - Viking countered by Stalker - Ghost countered by Feedback (one HT can Feedback 4 Ghosts rofl) - Reaper countred by everything except slow Zeals
Simple lol.... especially the HARD-counter part...
yes its lol because a stalker needs 4 hits to kill a marine + has more range yes its lol because a HT can kill ~20 rines with 1 Storm yes its lol because a 50/150 HT can Feeback 4*150/150 Ghosts yes its lol because a Immortal can kill (put any ridiculous number here) tanks.
seriously its getting ridiculous that all this C&C guys hijack every balance threads and want to nerf every other that isnt available for thei own race. first of all right now every one sucks in this game and in 2 weeks whole matchups can completly change just by finding a good timingpush or a way to get a faster expansion etc.
yesterday i played wit a firend who made some nice/interesting build that i never saw on ladder and its very simple and very effective. this alone told me that balance discussions at this stage are just stupid, because 80% of the beta user blow totally and the other 20% (Platinum) just explored like 10% of the game.
Do you even have beta?
Stalkers do 10 damage to marines and marines have 45 hp. Hence it takes 5 hits to kill a marine, not 4. Wtih proper micro stalkers can kill marines, yes, but only before stim comes into play.
1 Storm can kill 99999999 marines if the Terran is stupid enough to leave all his marines in the duration of the storm. If the Terran has basic micro skills 1 Storm won't kill jack shit.
The only time a HT will Feedback 4 Ghost is when they have full energy. If they have full energy the Terran is doing something wrong by never harassing Protoss and letting their HTs get up to full energy. That takes quite a while buddy. Also, 4 Ghost v 1 HT and you can't get off one EMP? Really now?
Immortals can kill a large number of tanks but if you're trying to attack Immortals with tanks you deserve to lose. Don't get tanks when they get Immortals. Get marines. They're cheaper and with stim they eat through Immortals like they aren't even there.
yes i have the beta and atm i am platinum place 7 with 1450-1500 points. I played like 80% of my games with P and 10% T and 10% Z. 1) marines without Stim suck anyway thats why i said 4 hits since marines are nearly useless without it (45HP - 10HP =35HP) and at that moment where Guardian shield comes into the Game they make -33% damage. seriously 4 Damage vs Protoss units without armor is a joke, they just regenerate the lost shield after 10 sec without beeing under fire. 2) most of the times you dont see early medivacs because they are way to expensive and need FAX + PORT which is a long tech compared to sc1 with only need of ACADMEY (which was needed anyway for range/stim upgrade) for Medics. 3) Medivacs heal imo way slower than Medics + they are expensive + Marauders eat up so much mana + they are really stupid compared to sc1 medics. 4) no you dont want to get marines for immortals you want to get ghosts and as a result you get some rounds of marines to save gas for ghosts. seriously you dont want to get marines they make nearly no damage and get destroyed by nearly everything. the shield upgrade makes it a bit better so they can take 1 hit more by stalkers.
edit 5) with observers you are able to shift Feedback Ghosts with 2 HTs before you attack and if you put some of your HTs into warpprism you can storm the shit out of the terran even if you didnt feedbacked all ghosts with the first 2 HTs 6) on most of the Maps you have cliffs in the middle which makes feedback + storm so much easier.
sure without putting an observer over the opponent army and without knowing where the army is and without HTs in warpprism and without abusing the maps for the own favor and without knowing that you will win the fight but still going for the attack from a bad postion and without a little bit of micro you will lose against any decent player. imo thats something that should be the way it is.
I see your point about marines v. stalkers. I'm convinced. And yes, you want to make ghost v. immortals. I just pointed out that you could make marines in that marines > tanks when it comes to killing, or at least getting rid of Immortal shields. But yes, ghost are most ideal against Immortals.
Your 5th and 6th points are valid, but you're conveniently forgetting that Terran can scan. Your logic is based on the assumption that Protoss has good vision of enemy troop movements with obs, but for some reason Terran isn't getting vision of Protoss troop movements with scan. If Terran can sneak out just 1 or 2 cloaked ghost out of obs vision, which I'd imagine wouldn't be overly difficult or at the very least not impossible...an easy EMP will waste HTs. Also, you said "without abusing the maps for their own favor." So what? Protoss can do that and Terran can't? If anything Terran is better at abusing maps due to their superior range and scan.
And yes, you can put HTs into warpprisms to dodge EMPs that way, but that still doesn't address the fact that storm, especially after the AoE nerf, won't kill anything, and will only do like 10 damage to maybe 6-7 units, if the Terran can micro properly. Actually, I wouldn't even consider that micro. All they have to do is move their units out of the storm, which anyone can do.
And please don't make the argument that Protoss can just blanket the battlefield with storm. It's very rare that Protoss will have more than 3-4, maybe 5-6 HTs with their army due to their high gas cost. The AoE nerf pretty much makes 1 storm cover next to nothing.
On April 05 2010 19:09 Paladia wrote: Any reason why the Marauder easily beats Stalkers in 1v1 (and even more so in bigger fights) when they cost like half of what the Stalker does, yet they can be healed, stimmed, not EMPed and has a passive slow attack?
Don't come with something like "Stalker can attack air so its balanced" since there is never anything the Marauder would ever even want to attack in air in TvP, as the Protoss air is extremely lackluster. So even if they could attack air as well there would be no difference for the balance of the match-up.
As Stalker, Roach and Marauder are way too similar in design I would suggest making the Marauder melee (with some altered stats), that would balance it and make the tier 1.5 more unique.
Marauders are the counter to stalkers .... it has been said so by blizzard deal with it ?
Also blink harsment by stalkers is crazy and has sooo much potential. You can blink anywhere on map you have a obs.
melee unit i don't even know what to say to that LOL
Yeah, and Blizzard also said Marauders are suppose to be weak against Zealots. But sure, if they make Zealots strong against Marauders (like they are suppose to) I'm fine with them being strong against Stalkers. Right now 5 Zealots won't even damage a couple of Marauders. 5 Marauders even beat 5 Ultralisk, which their slow doesn't even work against and costs 5 times as much.
Cause right now they are extremely strong against both zealots and stalkers, which is just wrong.
5 marauders can't beat 5 ultras nicce try tho adn agian my top post fix the zealot problem. (page 22 top)
Huh? What game are you playing? 5 Marauders beats 5 Ultras with standard micro, just check http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI (which was linked previously in this thread) amongst others.
On April 06 2010 04:43 xnub wrote: adn it would not be restricting the slow to just armored targets still hits Hellions, reapers, marines, ghost, Sentrys , HT, DT , Hydras, Drones/svc/ probes. you get the point.
This is a very uncreative solution IMO. Are you saying that the devs would need to break fundamental SC2 rules just to make a special exemption for the Marauder? They need to be formal about restrictions. I mean, why would it be able to slow a Reaper which is biological & light but not possible for a Zealot which has similar traits???
On April 06 2010 04:43 xnub wrote: Also the point of still haveing the slow is what it should have been very good for stopping fast moveing harsment units. ( Hellions, reapers ) Good at getting extra kills from retreating enemys a few extra stalkers hydras w/e. Good vs slowing a HT or ghost that gets caught by a scan and trys to run out of it. Also at slowing running probs from drops or attacks.
Many things slow would still be good for
This is the problem of the Marauder. It is good for many things.
Deal with it or don't play SC2 ?
Why doesn't the rocket from a marauder blow apart a none armored target and do more dmg then when it hits a armored target ? Lore does not fit well with rts's when it comes to balance don't try and toss it in cause it never works. Also it is the easyest solution without effecting almost anything else mid/late game. They have also made exemptions before Drones/cloans/Broodlings on creep don't get the speed upgrade.
also many other units specials are good at muilty things. Does not mean they are op.
On April 06 2010 05:02 xnub wrote: Deal with it or don't play SC2 ?
You do realize that I can still voice an opinion that at least one developer might consider implementing. It is still in beta stages after all -_-
On April 06 2010 05:02 xnub wrote: Why doesn't the rocket from a marauder blow apart a none armored target and do more dmg then when it hits a armored target ? Lore does not fit well with rts's when it comes to balance don't try and toss it in cause it never works.
Read again. I am not talking about lore. I'll be reposting my argument here to save you the trouble of reading my previous post: Why would an ability, lets say the Marauder's slow, take effect on a Reaper but not on a Zealot when both are clearly defined as Light & Biological? If you fail to see my point, I call troll.
On April 06 2010 05:02 xnub wrote: Also it is the easyest solution without effecting almost anything else mid/late game. They have also made exemptions before Drones/cloans/Broodlings on creep don't get the speed upgrade.
Movement speed on creep is a whole different kind of thing. Each unit can possess different movement speeds anyway.
On April 05 2010 19:09 Paladia wrote: Any reason why the Marauder easily beats Stalkers in 1v1 (and even more so in bigger fights) when they cost like half of what the Stalker does, yet they can be healed, stimmed, not EMPed and has a passive slow attack?
Don't come with something like "Stalker can attack air so its balanced" since there is never anything the Marauder would ever even want to attack in air in TvP, as the Protoss air is extremely lackluster. So even if they could attack air as well there would be no difference for the balance of the match-up.
As Stalker, Roach and Marauder are way too similar in design I would suggest making the Marauder melee (with some altered stats), that would balance it and make the tier 1.5 more unique.
Marauders are the counter to stalkers .... it has been said so by blizzard deal with it ?
Also blink harsment by stalkers is crazy and has sooo much potential. You can blink anywhere on map you have a obs.
melee unit i don't even know what to say to that LOL
Yeah, and Blizzard also said Marauders are suppose to be weak against Zealots. But sure, if they make Zealots strong against Marauders (like they are suppose to) I'm fine with them being strong against Stalkers. Right now 5 Zealots won't even damage a couple of Marauders. 5 Marauders even beat 5 Ultralisk, which their slow doesn't even work against and costs 5 times as much.
Cause right now they are extremely strong against both zealots and stalkers, which is just wrong.
5 marauders can't beat 5 ultras nicce try tho adn agian my top post fix the zealot problem. (page 22 top)
Huh? What game are you playing? 5 Marauders beats 5 Ultras with standard micro, just check http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI (which was linked previously in this thread) amongst others.
so thats more then 5 marauders and some rines in there WITH medvacs. With renforcments coming in from his base for the lost ones. Also the zerg was a noob and feel for the same shit over and over. Im going to micro 1 unit in as a scarfice over and over the zerg reasponse by falling for it and getting all the ultras to attack it.
Not to mention if this is so late in the game were is his backup for the ultras ? terran has army mix of MMM. Zerg just sending in ultras that are countered by maruders were are the hydras/speedlings to back them up ? Ultra is the meat shield when the hydras and lings do the work.
On April 06 2010 05:02 xnub wrote: Why doesn't the rocket from a marauder blow apart a none armored target and do more dmg then when it hits a armored target ? Lore does not fit well with rts's when it comes to balance don't try and toss it in cause it never works.
Read again. I am not talking about lore. I'll be reposting my argument here to save you the trouble of reading my previous post: Why would an ability, lets say the Marauder's slow, take effect on a Reaper but not on a Zealot when both are clearly defined as Light & Biological? If you fail to see my point, I call troll.
On April 06 2010 05:02 xnub wrote: Also it is the easyest solution without effecting almost anything else mid/late game. They have also made exemptions before Drones/cloans/Broodlings on creep don't get the speed upgrade.
Movement speed on creep is a whole different kind of thing. Each unit can possess different movement speeds anyway.
very much doubt it when changeing it would Require a huge rework and a fresh restart of the beta. Not to mention sc/bw hade hard counters as well
Again y would creep speed not effect ever zerg ground unit ? all units that are slowed can have different speeds to.
On April 05 2010 19:09 Paladia wrote: Any reason why the Marauder easily beats Stalkers in 1v1 (and even more so in bigger fights) when they cost like half of what the Stalker does, yet they can be healed, stimmed, not EMPed and has a passive slow attack?
Don't come with something like "Stalker can attack air so its balanced" since there is never anything the Marauder would ever even want to attack in air in TvP, as the Protoss air is extremely lackluster. So even if they could attack air as well there would be no difference for the balance of the match-up.
As Stalker, Roach and Marauder are way too similar in design I would suggest making the Marauder melee (with some altered stats), that would balance it and make the tier 1.5 more unique.
Marauders are the counter to stalkers .... it has been said so by blizzard deal with it ?
Also blink harsment by stalkers is crazy and has sooo much potential. You can blink anywhere on map you have a obs.
melee unit i don't even know what to say to that LOL
Yeah, and Blizzard also said Marauders are suppose to be weak against Zealots. But sure, if they make Zealots strong against Marauders (like they are suppose to) I'm fine with them being strong against Stalkers. Right now 5 Zealots won't even damage a couple of Marauders. 5 Marauders even beat 5 Ultralisk, which their slow doesn't even work against and costs 5 times as much.
Cause right now they are extremely strong against both zealots and stalkers, which is just wrong.
5 marauders can't beat 5 ultras nicce try tho adn agian my top post fix the zealot problem. (page 22 top)
Huh? What game are you playing? 5 Marauders beats 5 Ultras with standard micro, just check http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI (which was linked previously in this thread) amongst others.
so thats more then 5 marauders and some rines in there WITH medvacs. With renforcments coming in from his base for the lost ones. Also the zerg was a noob and feel for the same shit over and over. Im going to micro 1 unit in as a scarfice over and over the zerg reasponse by falling for it and getting all the ultras to attack it.
Not to mention if this is so late in the game were is his backup for the ultras ? terran has army mix of MMM. Zerg just sending in ultras that are countered by maruders were are the hydras/speedlings to back them up ? Ultra is the meat shield when the hydras and lings do the work.
You are a retard who should be banned from this site..... You honestly dont see whats wrong about 500/125 1.5 tier unit beating the highest unit in zergs tech tree which costs about 3000/2500 considering upgrades
On April 05 2010 15:53 tofucake wrote: I haven't read the entire thread yet, but what about Marauders only slowing when they hit life points (ie: not Protoss' shields). That would let Zealots get in closer to have a chance at doing some actual damage. And with charge they would be able to catch up when Marauders are micro'd away. Plus a buff to mech, like everyone said (and/or nerf to Immortal). Obviously this doesn't affect TvZ, but Roaches are too good ATM for Marauders to get a vZ nerf.
This is actually a pretty interesting idea.
its ok but easyer way agian would just be zealots and zerglings immune to slow. Cause you could still kite and kill big groups of zealots with that nerf. Zealots and zerglings need to be the counter all the time not half the time
I don't think you understand slow: it's caused by small shit (Zealots & Zerglings) being jacked up by the impact of the BIG FREAKIN MISSILEBULLETTHING. Shields would negate this. Zerglings don't have shields. If you say "make Zealots and Zerglings" immune what you want to say is "remove slow completely".
On April 05 2010 19:09 Paladia wrote: Any reason why the Marauder easily beats Stalkers in 1v1 (and even more so in bigger fights) when they cost like half of what the Stalker does, yet they can be healed, stimmed, not EMPed and has a passive slow attack?
Don't come with something like "Stalker can attack air so its balanced" since there is never anything the Marauder would ever even want to attack in air in TvP, as the Protoss air is extremely lackluster. So even if they could attack air as well there would be no difference for the balance of the match-up.
As Stalker, Roach and Marauder are way too similar in design I would suggest making the Marauder melee (with some altered stats), that would balance it and make the tier 1.5 more unique.
Marauders are the counter to stalkers .... it has been said so by blizzard deal with it ?
Also blink harsment by stalkers is crazy and has sooo much potential. You can blink anywhere on map you have a obs.
melee unit i don't even know what to say to that LOL
Yeah, and Blizzard also said Marauders are suppose to be weak against Zealots. But sure, if they make Zealots strong against Marauders (like they are suppose to) I'm fine with them being strong against Stalkers. Right now 5 Zealots won't even damage a couple of Marauders. 5 Marauders even beat 5 Ultralisk, which their slow doesn't even work against and costs 5 times as much.
Cause right now they are extremely strong against both zealots and stalkers, which is just wrong.
5 marauders can't beat 5 ultras nicce try tho adn agian my top post fix the zealot problem. (page 22 top)
Huh? What game are you playing? 5 Marauders beats 5 Ultras with standard micro, just check http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI (which was linked previously in this thread) amongst others.
so thats more then 5 marauders and some rines in there WITH medvacs. With renforcments coming in from his base for the lost ones. Also the zerg was a noob and feel for the same shit over and over. Im going to micro 1 unit in as a scarfice over and over the zerg reasponse by falling for it and getting all the ultras to attack it.
Not to mention if this is so late in the game were is his backup for the ultras ? terran has army mix of MMM. Zerg just sending in ultras that are countered by maruders were are the hydras/speedlings to back them up ? Ultra is the meat shield when the hydras and lings do the work.
You are a retard who should be banned from this site..... You honestly dont see whats wrong about 500/125 1.5 tier unit beating the highest unit in zergs tech tree which costs about 3000/2500 considering upgrades
There was more then 5 marauders there with 3 different types of units getting renforced by more MM for the ones they lose. If you see only 5 units get your eyes checked or think that sending in pure ultras to a fight is smart i would stop playing : )
Not to mention in BW they were the same as they are now for most part beside having the cleave. Made to take the first hits and be the meat and followed up by the units that do the dmg. Not to mention in BW there were units they could kite them all day.
I do feel like the unit has fallen on hard times due to the fact that roachs do the same thing for cheaper.
On April 05 2010 15:53 tofucake wrote: I haven't read the entire thread yet, but what about Marauders only slowing when they hit life points (ie: not Protoss' shields). That would let Zealots get in closer to have a chance at doing some actual damage. And with charge they would be able to catch up when Marauders are micro'd away. Plus a buff to mech, like everyone said (and/or nerf to Immortal). Obviously this doesn't affect TvZ, but Roaches are too good ATM for Marauders to get a vZ nerf.
This is actually a pretty interesting idea.
its ok but easyer way agian would just be zealots and zerglings immune to slow. Cause you could still kite and kill big groups of zealots with that nerf. Zealots and zerglings need to be the counter all the time not half the time
I don't think you understand slow: it's caused by small shit (Zealots & Zerglings) being jacked up by the impact of the BIG FREAKIN MISSILEBULLETTHING. Shields would negate this. Zerglings don't have shields. If you say "make Zealots and Zerglings" immune what you want to say is "remove slow completely".
read a few more of the post past there. If you remove the slow 100 % makes the unit boring and will prob have to toss in another ability they would need to balance around.
Also talking about lore in a rts balance does not work why does that BIG FREAKIN MISSILEBULLETTHING not do more dmg to the target with no armor. but instead it does more to the on with armor.
On April 05 2010 19:09 Paladia wrote: Any reason why the Marauder easily beats Stalkers in 1v1 (and even more so in bigger fights) when they cost like half of what the Stalker does, yet they can be healed, stimmed, not EMPed and has a passive slow attack?
Don't come with something like "Stalker can attack air so its balanced" since there is never anything the Marauder would ever even want to attack in air in TvP, as the Protoss air is extremely lackluster. So even if they could attack air as well there would be no difference for the balance of the match-up.
As Stalker, Roach and Marauder are way too similar in design I would suggest making the Marauder melee (with some altered stats), that would balance it and make the tier 1.5 more unique.
Marauders are the counter to stalkers .... it has been said so by blizzard deal with it ?
Also blink harsment by stalkers is crazy and has sooo much potential. You can blink anywhere on map you have a obs.
melee unit i don't even know what to say to that LOL
Yeah, and Blizzard also said Marauders are suppose to be weak against Zealots. But sure, if they make Zealots strong against Marauders (like they are suppose to) I'm fine with them being strong against Stalkers. Right now 5 Zealots won't even damage a couple of Marauders. 5 Marauders even beat 5 Ultralisk, which their slow doesn't even work against and costs 5 times as much.
Cause right now they are extremely strong against both zealots and stalkers, which is just wrong.
5 marauders can't beat 5 ultras nicce try tho adn agian my top post fix the zealot problem. (page 22 top)
Huh? What game are you playing? 5 Marauders beats 5 Ultras with standard micro, just check http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI (which was linked previously in this thread) amongst others.
so thats more then 5 marauders and some rines in there WITH medvacs. With renforcments coming in from his base for the lost ones. Also the zerg was a noob and feel for the same shit over and over. Im going to micro 1 unit in as a scarfice over and over the zerg reasponse by falling for it and getting all the ultras to attack it.
Not to mention if this is so late in the game were is his backup for the ultras ? terran has army mix of MMM. Zerg just sending in ultras that are countered by maruders were are the hydras/speedlings to back them up ? Ultra is the meat shield when the hydras and lings do the work.
You are a retard who should be banned from this site..... You honestly dont see whats wrong about 500/125 1.5 tier unit beating the highest unit in zergs tech tree which costs about 3000/2500 considering upgrades
There was more then 5 marauders there with 3 different types of units getting renforced by more MM for the ones they lose. If you see only 5 units get your eyes checked or think that sending in pure ultras to a fight is smart i would stop playing : )
Not to mention in BW they were the same as they are now for most part beside having the cleave. Made to take the first hits and be the meat and followed up by the units that do the dmg. Not to mention in BW there were units they could kite them all day.
I do feel like the unit has fallen on hard times due to the fact that roachs do the same thing for cheaper.
Obviously 5 Marauder vs. 5 Ultralisks would go to the Ultralisks. 5 Marauder + Medivac vs. 5 Ultralisks would be a close fight given proper micro. 5 Marauder + Medivac vs. 5 Ultralisks + Hydra would go to the Ultralisks. 5 Marauder + Medivac + Marines vs. 5 Ultralisks + Hydra would go to the Ultralisks.
And guess what? None of that matters because I could say that 5 Colossi would destroy 5 Marauders unless Marauders had medivacs and this whole thing would start again.
The problem is in the vicious circle between Marauders, Roaches, and Immortals/Colossi. I think those specialized Robotics Facility units are too massable for their strength and should have much longer build and tech times, especially considering Chrono Boost. In exchange, Marauders and Roaches have reduced health and attack.
Starcraft 2 Ultralisks have replaced Zerglings with their cleave attack and bonus damage to buildings. All they need is Hydralisk backup.
On April 05 2010 15:53 tofucake wrote: I haven't read the entire thread yet, but what about Marauders only slowing when they hit life points (ie: not Protoss' shields). That would let Zealots get in closer to have a chance at doing some actual damage. And with charge they would be able to catch up when Marauders are micro'd away. Plus a buff to mech, like everyone said (and/or nerf to Immortal). Obviously this doesn't affect TvZ, but Roaches are too good ATM for Marauders to get a vZ nerf.
This is actually a pretty interesting idea.
its ok but easyer way agian would just be zealots and zerglings immune to slow. Cause you could still kite and kill big groups of zealots with that nerf. Zealots and zerglings need to be the counter all the time not half the time
I don't think you understand slow: it's caused by small shit (Zealots & Zerglings) being jacked up by the impact of the BIG FREAKIN MISSILEBULLETTHING. Shields would negate this. Zerglings don't have shields. If you say "make Zealots and Zerglings" immune what you want to say is "remove slow completely".
read a few more of the post past there. If you remove the slow 100 % makes the unit boring and will prob have to toss in another ability they would need to balance around.
Also talking about lore in a rts balance does not work why does that BIG FREAKIN MISSILEBULLETTHING not do more dmg to the target with no armor. but instead it does more to the on with armor.
I think slow should not be taken from the Marauder. However, I think the Marauder itself should be changed to compensate for this ability
I will pay 5 dollars to rename this thread, 'abluu bluu bluu, marauders would own me if I had a beta key QQ". I wish there were at least 4 replays out of 24 pages, because over the weekend I saw a lot of replays, such as frozen-arbitor(jinro), who went 1 reaper -> gold expo -> 6-7 rax/techlab MASS RAUDER, AND LOST, 2 OUT OF 3 GAMES TO....a few immortals and gateway units. For real, please please please please please please please post replays because I don't believe. I play terran and don't really go rauders except to do jinro's reaper->FE->mass rauder, and I really only seem forced into them vs toss when I FE. If these QQRauders lose to immortals + gateway units, what's the problem? I would also post a replay but I don't have to prove my point, watch jinro or any high level TvP, Rauders are not as tough shit as everyone gives them credit for.
P.S. no offense to the OP, the thread obviously started out as 'a serious discussion..' but 24 pages later it is ... not
Like others, I think the Marauders is filling too many roles in T1 : - It's a counter to armored units. In T1, that's roaches and stalkers (and other marauders obviously). - It's a counter to melee units thanks to his slow. In T1, that's zerglings and zealots. Yup, the marauder counters pretty much everything you can throw at him in T1. Banelings may give him trouble; don't know, we don't see them in the current metagame.
Personnally, I would remove the slow. If you make it an upgrade, you give the opponent a chance to have air units or immortals by the time the upgrade is done. So, once the marauder doesn't counter zerglings and zealots, who can do the job ? Marines will die if they are in melee; getting them behind a wall or in a bunker will make them superior though. However that restricts the terran player terribly : he lets total control of the map to his opponent and can't expand without being obliterated.
The terran player would only be able to get out once he reaches factory tech; hellions counter zerglings and zealots thanks to their speed and bonus damage. However.. the reaper could do the job. Thanks to his speed and bonus damage vs light units (like the hellion), he doesn't need much to counter melee units : Only a reduction in building time (30s sounds good), and maybe giving him the stimpack upgrade (so that they have a chance against speedlings and charging zealots).
Well, I hope I didn't miss anything. This would make the reaper much more interesting; right now it's only being used for harassment. However, this may make marines in TvP and TvZ even more useless, since there would be no point in getting a reactor on barracks.
On April 06 2010 08:27 228zip wrote: Like others, I think the Marauders is filling too many roles in T1 : - It's a counter to armored units. In T1, that's roaches and stalkers (and other marauders obviously). - It's a counter to melee units thanks to his slow. In T1, that's zerglings and zealots. Yup, the marauder counters pretty much everything you can throw at him in T1. Banelings may give him trouble; don't know, we don't see them in the current metagame.
Personnally, I would remove the slow. If you make it an upgrade, you give the opponent a chance to have air units or immortals by the time the upgrade is done. So, once the marauder doesn't counter zerglings and zealots, who can do the job ? Marines will die if they are in melee; getting them behind a wall or in a bunker will make them superior though. However that restricts the terran player terribly : he lets total control of the map to his opponent and can't expand without being obliterated.
The terran player would only be able to get out once he reaches factory tech; hellions counter zerglings and zealots thanks to their speed and bonus damage. However.. the reaper could do the job. Thanks to his speed and bonus damage vs light units (like the hellion), he doesn't need much to counter melee units : Only a reduction in building time (30s sounds good), and maybe giving him the stimpack upgrade (so that they have a chance against speedlings and charging zealots).
Well, I hope I didn't miss anything. This would make the reaper much more interesting; right now it's only being used for harassment. However, this may make marines in TvP and TvZ even more useless, since there would be no point in getting a reactor on barracks.
Marines are a great counter to Zerglings and zealots not to mention hellions still rape there faces. Only diff is you would need to make a mix of MM and micro them so marauders would be in front and rines in back. Zealots and zerglings would counter the marauders if they were immune to slow but pair them with the other tier 1 and you are golden. Just need to make sure the meat shield is in front. Marauders are the wall thats why they have the HP : P
small group of MM will still do good for early aggresion. Just not omg its 5 marauders they take out your 6 zealots without loseing one or kite and kill half your zerglings till they get in melee range then kill off whats left.
reapers are fine the way they are no buff or nerf needed good for early harsment/attacks and good mid/late for kill expos and keeping the enemy on his toes and scouting. Also reapers hade stim in alpha the dmg was really way to insane lol. little duel pistols going off like machine guns was cool looking tho : P
Really just slow can't effect melee units problem solve or just zerglings/zealots
Obviously 5 Marauder vs. 5 Ultralisks would go to the Ultralisks. 5 Marauder + Medivac vs. 5 Ultralisks would be a close fight given proper micro. 5 Marauder + Medivac vs. 5 Ultralisks + Hydra would go to the Ultralisks. 5 Marauder + Medivac + Marines vs. 5 Ultralisks + Hydra would go to the Ultralisks.
And guess what? None of that matters because I could say that 5 Colossi would destroy 5 Marauders unless Marauders had medivacs and this whole thing would start again.
I'm still very confused as to why Marauder NEED a slow effect? What specific match up does this matter in?
I'd like to see reasonable comments. Not I need it cuz my unitz are teh suck. Or cuz I need it cuz I like PWNING NOOBS! If the issue is that your other units are bad, ask for a buff to them,
TvP VS Zealots? Make more Marines? Vs Stalkers? Marauders cost less and deal more damage to stalker than stalkers deal them? Vs Robo units? I rarely care or fine slow even makes much of a difference vs Robo units. Colossi have super range and Immortals deal sick damage to Marauders.
TvZ Vs Zergling? Make some Marines, Marines eat Lings for breakfast Vs Banelings? Why would Zerg build banelings to counter Mass Marauders? Marauders are not light. Vs Hydras? You shouldn't be making Marauders to beat hydras, Siege tanks are far superior. Vs Ultralisks? You can't even slow them, so makes no difference.
All Matchups Vs T2 Armor? You already have favourable 100% Damage bonus vs Armor do you rly need a slow?
On April 05 2010 15:53 tofucake wrote: I haven't read the entire thread yet, but what about Marauders only slowing when they hit life points (ie: not Protoss' shields). That would let Zealots get in closer to have a chance at doing some actual damage. And with charge they would be able to catch up when Marauders are micro'd away. Plus a buff to mech, like everyone said (and/or nerf to Immortal). Obviously this doesn't affect TvZ, but Roaches are too good ATM for Marauders to get a vZ nerf.
This is actually a pretty interesting idea.
its ok but easyer way agian would just be zealots and zerglings immune to slow. Cause you could still kite and kill big groups of zealots with that nerf. Zealots and zerglings need to be the counter all the time not half the time
I don't think you understand slow: it's caused by small shit (Zealots & Zerglings) being jacked up by the impact of the BIG FREAKIN MISSILEBULLETTHING. Shields would negate this. Zerglings don't have shields. If you say "make Zealots and Zerglings" immune what you want to say is "remove slow completely".
read a few more of the post past there. If you remove the slow 100 % makes the unit boring and will prob have to toss in another ability they would need to balance around.
Also talking about lore in a rts balance does not work why does that BIG FREAKIN MISSILEBULLETTHING not do more dmg to the target with no armor. but instead it does more to the on with armor.
The slow is caused by the force of impact. That force is spread over armor causing more damage (microfractures ftw) instead of slowing. Satisfied?
I think the issue is a relatively simple one. Marauders at the moment are too like tanks, meaning that transitioning out of them makes no sense, given the investment one must commit to them early game, it's far easier to just keep going with them and getting upgrades/medivac etc. the presence of immortals in tvp makes going for tanks less likely. I honestly think the whole thing can be saved by slight cost/ hp adjustments. Take the marauder down to 75/25 and 85 HP, perhaps increasing their damage a little even further to 12/+10. Up the tank to 175 HP and leave cost as is. This makes massing marauders a lot more dangerous vs toss as immortals two hit them, and tanks a bit better as it takes 4 immortal hits to roll, making the differential 2/4 instead of the current 3/3. Marauders thus become a very good surgical counter to armor, excellent drop harass units, very good early game counters to unsupported roaches or zealots and so forth due to their ability to micro to avoid being hit, but significantly worse as line units late game, being 2hit by +1 upgraded collossi, more vulnerable to storms, hydras. mutas and banelings. admittedly this makes tanks the 'tank' unit of the terran army, but I personally would love to see tanks actually being used *as* tanks instead of artillery 100% of the time.
Personnally, I would remove the slow. If you make it an upgrade, you give the opponent a chance to have air units or immortals by the time the upgrade is done. So, once the marauder doesn't counter zerglings and zealots, who can do the job ? Marines will die if they are in melee; getting them behind a wall or in a bunker will make them superior though. However that restricts the terran player terribly : he lets total control of the map to his opponent and can't expand without being obliterated. /QUOTE]
Giving your opponent a chance to get air units and immortals is exactly what we need to solve this problem. 100/100 upgrade at the tech lab for the slow effect. Forces tension between 2nd tech lab and stim build timings. Forces the terran to make more choices and we all know this is never a bad thing. I don't think it's giving up map control as much as its giving protoss an equal playing field for it. To compensate for the extra out of pocket cost we could take 25 gas off the siege tank cost.
The terran would have to think to himself if he is ready to commit to marauders by researching it, or if he is just going to use them to hold himself over until factory units. If he does decide to commit to it, he can still switch tech to siege tank at any time. With the 25 gas decrease it will even out the gas you spent on slow effect.
Now some might argue that all terrans would still bite the bullet, take the 100/100 sacrifice every time, and we'd be back to the same mindless marauder spam as before. Essentially they would be right, this would not fix mid/late game whatsoever and there would be little reason for terrans to mass anything besides marauder. This means we need to take 25 hp off the marauder and give siege tank 180.
I do agree buffing the siege tanks hp will not change the fact that immortals completely own it. Increasing its effectiveness against other units will compensate for that. The immortal is just one unit that hard counters the tank, I think we might just have to deal with that fact. Increasing its durability and making it a little more cost appealing will compensate enough to ignore how bad the immortal counters it. Just guard your tanks from the immortals, in SC1 we had to guard our tanks but the effectiveness it gave us in return made it well worth it.
Some would argue that a 150/100 siege tank with 180 hp might be a little too powerful vs zerg. You have to remember the terran is taking a huge hit on the marauder at this point.
I would also like to add that I just don't like the idea of adding a special exception for zerglings and zealots. For one, I can't picture blizzard doing it. Also doesn't seem like a very creative solution. It's like saying "storm is too effective against zerglings, so we will just make it not affect them at all whatsoever".
On April 06 2010 10:24 Daerthalus wrote: I'm still very confused as to why Marauder NEED a slow effect? What specific match up does this matter in?
I'd like to see reasonable comments. Not I need it cuz my unitz are teh suck. Or cuz I need it cuz I like PWNING NOOBS! If the issue is that your other units are bad, ask for a buff to them,
TvP VS Zealots? Make more Marines? Vs Stalkers? Marauders cost less and deal more damage to stalker than stalkers deal them? Vs Robo units? I rarely care or fine slow even makes much of a difference vs Robo units. Colossi have super range and Immortals deal sick damage to Marauders.
TvZ Vs Zergling? Make some Marines, Marines eat Lings for breakfast Vs Banelings? Why would Zerg build banelings to counter Mass Marauders? Marauders are not light. Vs Hydras? You shouldn't be making Marauders to beat hydras, Siege tanks are far superior. Vs Ultralisks? You can't even slow them, so makes no difference.
All Matchups Vs T2 Armor? You already have favourable 100% Damage bonus vs Armor do you rly need a slow?
its a cool ability that gives them a bit more use and makes them none boreing. just like stalker blink, zealot charge, roachs bury and move when under ground. Its just a cool spell ability from keeping units a little more unque and cool.
some cool things slow does very good for stopping fast moveing harsment units. ( Hellions, reapers ) Good at getting extra kills from retreating enemys a few extra stalkers hydras w/e. Good vs slowing a HT or ghost that gets caught by a scan and trys to run out of it. Also at slowing running probs from drops or attacks. More to but slow is a cool little thing. Really just should not work on melee units /shrug
On April 06 2010 12:05 xnub wrote: its a cool ability that gives them a bit more use and makes them none boreing. just like stalker blink, zealot charge, roachs bury and move when under ground. Its just a cool spell ability from keeping units a little more unque and cool.
You have a shallow way of thinking if you close it as something that makes unit cool. Stalker blink is there to compensate for the lack of range upgrade and adds mobility to the unit. Zealot charge is simply the new Speedlot upgrade. The roach started out as a tank + harass unit in the drawing board hence it has rapid regen and tunneling claws.
LET'S GET BACK ON TOPIC! Why does the marauder need a slow?
On April 06 2010 12:05 xnub wrote: some cool things slow does very good for stopping fast moveing harsment units. ( Hellions, reapers ) Good at getting extra kills from retreating enemys a few extra stalkers hydras w/e. Good vs slowing a HT or ghost that gets caught by a scan and trys to run out of it. Also at slowing running probs from drops or attacks. More to but slow is a cool little thing. Really just should not work on melee units /shrug
This doesn't make sense. The Marauder has the passive slow attack solely for the purpose of getting a few extra kills? That's a tad too one-sided and boring IMO and it doesn't add depth to strategy.
If it was solely for the purpose of preventing your opponent's army from touching yours it would make a lot more sense seeing as a standard Terran army consists mainly of ranged units.
You have a shallow way of thinking if you close it as something that makes unit cool. Stalker blink is there to compensate for the lack of range upgrade and adds mobility to the unit. Zealot charge is simply the new Speedlot upgrade. The roach started out as a tank + harass unit in the drawing board hence it has rapid regen and tunneling claws.
LET'S GET BACK ON TOPIC! Why does the marauder need a slow?
cool and usefull abilities thats what blizzard was going for cool abilities that could be fun to use or see and also usefull in the game. For the stalker blink what does it do ? Can be used to chase down units get extra kills and micro to avoid loseing units just like slow on marauders. Then you have the bonus of it being good for getting around the map and useing it for harsment. Same with roachs extra regen under ground cool for mirco to keep them alive and also they can get into postion to fight really easy. Can also be very good for harsment.
This doesn't make sense. The Marauder has the passive slow attack solely for the purpose of getting a few extra kills? That's a tad too one-sided and boring IMO and it doesn't add depth to strategy.
There was more reason then just getting those extras kills and thats big. Makes the enemy think twice about attacking you if he know he is going to lose even more units if he try to break off. Read it agian a hellion or reaper comes into your base trying to kite your guys around as they do as much dmg as they can. Slow kills that off right away no speed and they are GG. Not to mention you can still kite roachs sentrys and workers. Also slow is good for messing with the postion of there units hit move a side back watch them take twice as long to get back into a good formation.
If it was solely for the purpose of preventing your opponent's army from touching yours it would make a lot more sense seeing as a standard Terran army consists mainly of ranged units.
See thats the problem right now it is preventing your opponent's army from touching you with any melee units. Thats what is making the marauder imb. the melee units were the things made by blizzard to counter the marauder early game. They don't cause of it and micro and slow.
Single-Target Autocast with 4.5 cooldown (becomes the Marauder's attack when available). (Autocast can be turned off)
Description:
The marauder's attack gains a slowing effect on opponents, and becomes stronger against heavily armored targets once fully charged. If the marauder attacks with an unprepared shell, the cooldown is restarted without the activation of this ability. Massive units are immune to the slow effect.
Attack bonus: +5 vs. armored. Slow: 60%~75% (current Marauder: 50%)
Research: "Nanomachine AI Optimisation : Speed" / Whatever name that looks cool
Researched at: Techlab attached to Barracks if Quality is researched
Drastically reduces production time of concussive shells on marauder weapons, at the cost of some of the slowing effect. Cooldown reduced from 4.5 to 3.0, Slow effect reduced from 60%~75% to 45%~60%
Cost: 100/100. Research time: fast.
Research: "Nanomachine AI Optimisation : Quality" / Whatever name that looks cool
Researched at: Techlab attached to Barracks if Speed is researched (marauders start with this researched)
Improves the quality of marauder's concussive shells, at the cost of production time. Cooldown worsened from 3.0 to 4.5, Slow effect buffed from 45%~60% to 60%~75%
Cost: 100/100. Research time: slower.
Idea behind all this:
Make the Marauder more interesting overall. Keep its relation to units like Roaches Immortals or Infestors, but add some micro to these matchups. Also exploit the marauder's slow effect more as a support unit, by making it more sensible but harder/more expensive to use.
Also give them two "Weapons refit"-like upgrades, which will swap their role in the army, for more flexible builds, but once the modes are changed, you'll need to make the time lost and resources spent in the swap worth it.
This tweak won't affect Marauders vs. Immortals DPS-wise since the damage is 10 under hardened shields anyway. It will make kiting Immortals more effective, should the player micro correctly.
Even with nerfed damage vs. Roaches, the improved slow effect on the already slow roaches will balance themselves out even in "Quality" mode.
You can still pick Infestors with 3x Marauders since their first shot is as strong as before, and the second is still strong enough to kill. (And the improved slow may add an opportunity for a third shot)
Generally, the Marauder's DPS is weaker, but they kite more easily for full damage with the "Speed" mode. With the "Quality" mode, they fit more as support units.
Single-Target Autocast with 4.5 cooldown (becomes the Marauder's attack when available). (Autocast can be turned off)
Description:
The marauder's attack gains a slowing effect on opponents, and becomes stronger against heavily armored targets once fully charged. If the marauder attacks with an unprepared shell, the cooldown is restarted without the activation of this ability. Massive units are immune to the slow effect.
Attack bonus: +5 vs. armored. Slow: 60%~75% (current Marauder: 50%)
Research: "Nanomachine AI Optimisation : Speed" / Whatever name that looks cool
Researched at: Techlab attached to Barracks if Quality is researched
Drastically reduces production time of concussive shells on marauder weapons, at the cost of some of the slowing effect. Cooldown reduced from 4.5 to 3.0, Slow effect reduced from 60%~75% to 45%~60%
Cost: 100/100. Research time: fast.
Research: "Nanomachine AI Optimisation : Quality" / Whatever name that looks cool
Researched at: Techlab attached to Barracks if Speed is researched (marauders start with this researched)
Improves the quality of marauder's concussive shells, at the cost of production time. Cooldown worsened from 3.0 to 4.5, Slow effect buffed from 45%~60% to 60%~75%
Cost: 100/100. Research time: slower.
Idea behind all this:
Make the Marauder more interesting overall. Keep its relation to units like Roaches Immortals or Infestors, but add some micro to these matchups. Also exploit the marauder's slow effect more as a support unit, by making it more sensible but harder/more expensive to use.
Also give them two "Weapons refit"-like upgrades, which will swap their role in the army, for more flexible builds, but once the modes are changed, you'll need to make the time lost and resources spent in the swap worth it.
This tweak won't affect Marauders vs. Immortals DPS-wise since the damage is 10 under hardened shields anyway. It will make kiting Immortals more effective, should the player micro correctly.
Even with nerfed damage vs. Roaches, the improved slow effect on the already slow roaches will balance themselves out even in "Quality" mode.
You can still pick Infestors with 3x Marauders since their first shot is as strong as before, and the second is still strong enough to kill. (And the improved slow may add an opportunity for a third shot)
Generally, the Marauder's DPS is weaker, but they kite more easily for full damage with the "Speed" mode. With the "Quality" mode, they fit more as support units.
Still does not fix the real problem with marauders. Still will just mass them and when you get 4 - 6 go attack the toss base and watch as can't really def himself. Plus its really confusing and complicated. Altho i do like that you are trying to make them even more interesting as a unit. But think they are plenty interesting . Maybe not as much as roachs or stalkers but eh /shrug got stim to so makes up for it.
Also would effect end game to much where really tvp and tvz is really getting close to balance as it is.
oh also its 10 + 10 for armored so 5 + 10 was what you were looking for ?
On April 06 2010 12:50 xnub wrote: See thats the problem right now it is preventing your opponent's army from touching you with any melee units. Thats what is making the marauder imb. the melee units were the things made by blizzard to counter the marauder early game. They don't cause of it and micro and slow.
I have thought of something better: Zealots being immune to the slow effect while charging.
On April 06 2010 12:50 xnub wrote: See thats the problem right now it is preventing your opponent's army from touching you with any melee units. Thats what is making the marauder imb. the melee units were the things made by blizzard to counter the marauder early game. They don't cause of it and micro and slow.
I have thought of something better: Zealots being immune to the slow effect while charging.
On April 05 2010 19:09 Paladia wrote: Any reason why the Marauder easily beats Stalkers in 1v1 (and even more so in bigger fights) when they cost like half of what the Stalker does, yet they can be healed, stimmed, not EMPed and has a passive slow attack?
Don't come with something like "Stalker can attack air so its balanced" since there is never anything the Marauder would ever even want to attack in air in TvP, as the Protoss air is extremely lackluster. So even if they could attack air as well there would be no difference for the balance of the match-up.
As Stalker, Roach and Marauder are way too similar in design I would suggest making the Marauder melee (with some altered stats), that would balance it and make the tier 1.5 more unique.
Marauders are the counter to stalkers .... it has been said so by blizzard deal with it ?
Also blink harsment by stalkers is crazy and has sooo much potential. You can blink anywhere on map you have a obs.
melee unit i don't even know what to say to that LOL
How can you actually seriously propose Stalkers with blink vs Marauders? The build time for the council and the research time, even with chrono boost is ridiculous let alone the costs too.
Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not. I have no issues with Medivac/Marauder/Ghost being the core of Terran armies, Protoss have enough stuff to make it an even fight later on. Thus, I think that the best way to balance the Marauder (and potentially Reaper) is re-introduce the Merc Haven (or Academy) and make that building a prerequisite for building the Marauder. Perhaps adding slow as an upgrade there would be good too (as well as reaper speed, if you want to put the reaper there too). This slows down how fast Terran can get the Marauder and hence makes Rushes significantly weaker. It adds an extra tech building making them less attractive in TvZ (making Mech more favorable) and should iron out any problems in TvP.
On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote: Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not. I have no issues with Medivac/Marauder/Ghost being the core of Terran armies, Protoss have enough stuff to make it an even fight later on. Thus, I think that the best way to balance the Marauder (and potentially Reaper) is re-introduce the Merc Haven (or Academy) and make that building a prerequisite for building the Marauder. Perhaps adding slow as an upgrade there would be good too (as well as reaper speed, if you want to put the reaper there too). This slows down how fast Terran can get the Marauder and hence makes Rushes significantly weaker. It adds an extra tech building making them less attractive in TvZ (making Mech more favorable) and should iron out any problems in TvP.
Thoughts?
making the slow an upgrade at the tech lab should be sufficent, the cost + time would prevent the marauder cheese rush.
Instead of the marauder losing it's pasive ability , or it being an reserach, the current pasive stun ability should be replaced by a new one.
The marauder could get a new pasive ability (instead of the current stun one) that would make it's atacks completely ignore enemy units armor ( an armor pircing atack or something, inspired by those antiarmor HEAT shells that tanks use).- would fit much more with an unit heavily specialied against armored targets gameplayvise, and would make much more sense than an stun ability lorevise ( lol how do you stun tanks and robots )
And they could give the stun ability to some other unit, a unit much more deserving of it, but that is for an another thread
On April 06 2010 18:31 PerfectTear wrote: Instead of the marauder losing it's pasive ability , or it being an reserach, the current pasive stun ability should be replaced by a new one.
The marauder could get a new pasive ability (instead of the current stun one) that would make it's atacks completely ignore enemy units armor ( an armor pircing atack or something, inspired by those antiarmor HEAT shells that tanks use).- would fit much more with an unit heavily specialied against armored targets gameplayvise, and would make much more sense than an stun ability lorevise ( lol how do you stun tanks and robots )
And they could give the stun ability to some other unit, a unit much more deserving of it, but that is for an another thread
you do realise that in the very best case scenario, this is a +6 damage and nothing more?
On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote: Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not. I have no issues with Medivac/Marauder/Ghost being the core of Terran armies, Protoss have enough stuff to make it an even fight later on. Thus, I think that the best way to balance the Marauder (and potentially Reaper) is re-introduce the Merc Haven (or Academy) and make that building a prerequisite for building the Marauder. Perhaps adding slow as an upgrade there would be good too (as well as reaper speed, if you want to put the reaper there too). This slows down how fast Terran can get the Marauder and hence makes Rushes significantly weaker. It adds an extra tech building making them less attractive in TvZ (making Mech more favorable) and should iron out any problems in TvP.
Thoughts?
I am curious on how it would work out with a Reactor add-on.
On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote: Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not. I have no issues with Medivac/Marauder/Ghost being the core of Terran armies, Protoss have enough stuff to make it an even fight later on. Thus, I think that the best way to balance the Marauder (and potentially Reaper) is re-introduce the Merc Haven (or Academy) and make that building a prerequisite for building the Marauder. Perhaps adding slow as an upgrade there would be good too (as well as reaper speed, if you want to put the reaper there too). This slows down how fast Terran can get the Marauder and hence makes Rushes significantly weaker. It adds an extra tech building making them less attractive in TvZ (making Mech more favorable) and should iron out any problems in TvP.
Thoughts?
I am curious on how it would work out with a Reactor add-on.
The same as it does for the Ghost. Tech lab + Tech building
On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote: Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not. I have no issues with Medivac/Marauder/Ghost being the core of Terran armies, Protoss have enough stuff to make it an even fight later on. Thus, I think that the best way to balance the Marauder (and potentially Reaper) is re-introduce the Merc Haven (or Academy) and make that building a prerequisite for building the Marauder. Perhaps adding slow as an upgrade there would be good too (as well as reaper speed, if you want to put the reaper there too). This slows down how fast Terran can get the Marauder and hence makes Rushes significantly weaker. It adds an extra tech building making them less attractive in TvZ (making Mech more favorable) and should iron out any problems in TvP.
Thoughts?
I am curious on how it would work out with a Reactor add-on.
The same as it does for the Ghost. Tech lab + Tech building
Errr.. I was thinking along the lines of having the ability to massing it more quickly.
On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote: Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not. I have no issues with Medivac/Marauder/Ghost being the core of Terran armies, Protoss have enough stuff to make it an even fight later on. Thus, I think that the best way to balance the Marauder (and potentially Reaper) is re-introduce the Merc Haven (or Academy) and make that building a prerequisite for building the Marauder. Perhaps adding slow as an upgrade there would be good too (as well as reaper speed, if you want to put the reaper there too). This slows down how fast Terran can get the Marauder and hence makes Rushes significantly weaker. It adds an extra tech building making them less attractive in TvZ (making Mech more favorable) and should iron out any problems in TvP.
Thoughts?
I am curious on how it would work out with a Reactor add-on.
The same as it does for the Ghost. Tech lab + Tech building
Errr.. I was thinking along the lines of having the ability to massing it more quickly.
Oh mmm I'm not sure heh. I don't think it would work out too well because you'd still have the ability to rush them unless the build time on the merc haven was long. If the build time was sufficiently long I don't think it would impact things too greatly.
I like that idea. Increase the tech cost to gain access to marauders also enables them to have their slow as an upgrade.
I still think a viable solution would be to have the Marauders gain an ability that "roots" them or slows them, but enables their slow. It would have no cast time (unlike siege) but a cooldown to prevent i from being toggled on and off between attacks.
Marauder Mode (5-10s CD) Slows the Marauder by 50%, but grants their attacks a 50% slow. **Numbers up to discussion**
Essentially they'd be unable to kite zealots with charge or avoid being boxed in by sentrys but would still be able to slow Banelings. Banelings themselves are not that disastrous vs Mass Rauders, but they do chew threw marines, so the slow would enable marines to move away, or burn the incoming Banelings down.
Seem far more viable than a 100.100 research or some new ability + 2 customizations. It's simply a change to an ability.
On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote: Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not. I have no issues with Medivac/Marauder/Ghost being the core of Terran armies, Protoss have enough stuff to make it an even fight later on. Thus, I think that the best way to balance the Marauder (and potentially Reaper) is re-introduce the Merc Haven (or Academy) and make that building a prerequisite for building the Marauder. Perhaps adding slow as an upgrade there would be good too (as well as reaper speed, if you want to put the reaper there too). This slows down how fast Terran can get the Marauder and hence makes Rushes significantly weaker. It adds an extra tech building making them less attractive in TvZ (making Mech more favorable) and should iron out any problems in TvP.
Thoughts?
why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine?
terran already has a shitload of techbuildings, they spend so much time on tech i think its enough man
this woudlnt change anything, it would just cost the terrans to tweak our bo alittle but nothing big and everything is back to the same
ur killing every single rush possibility of the terran by doing this, marine bunker rush? yea right like thats gonna happen when bunks r 30 and rines r 25
all u would acomplish is to add another tech building with 0 upgrades in it afaik, or maybe u want to move all tech lab grades to the academy? its a tech lab its supposed to contain the upgrades... academy has no purpose in sc2 as long as the tech lab is here
terran already has most upgrades and tech buildings needed to play in the game, ur not thinking far enough ;
The main issue with the marauder for me as protoss player is that its simply too powerful early game.
I want to put some pressure on the terran early? No way he got marauders, he can kite my zealots/ hard countner my stalkers
He fast expands, I want to destroy his expo? No way he got marauders, he can kite my zealots/ hard countner my stalkers
I answer his fast expand, with my own fast expand? No way, he now can produce marauders with double the speed, immortals are too costly to mass them before he pushes with his army
Basically as a protoss I am afraid to do any action whatsoever because he can kite my whole tier 1 army with marauders, and if I decide to get colossus, HT or immortals, the terran either pushes with his huge marauder ball or by the time I get my first colossus he got 100 limit marauders already.
On April 06 2010 20:15 Plexa wrote: What kind of rushes do Protoss have that are viable against Terran at the moment Morrow?
proxi gate (scv less hp than sc1, scv alot less hp and repairs slower, marines more hp but still die by 3 hits. zea-10 shield but in the end if its unstruck for 10 sec it can regnerate from 0 shield to 50 in 25 seconds which is alot faster than sc1) gate rushing should be stronger in sc2, ppl just havent started doing it. oh and also marines cant fuck around between supply depots where zea must run around. now its all fair and square in that area so sim city? alot less effective
forge rush (ive seen it happen and even died to it, cannons 150/150 now)
void ray rush (u may laff but this is what white-ra is doing as response to marauder fe, it counters it hard)
dt rush with proxi pylon (not as strong as sc1 but sure as hell not as expected. plus scvs die on 1 hit now)
and then pretty much any ground army combo timing rush. 4warpgate. immortal rushing. mass sentry zealot immortal. (this is what everyone is doing for the past weeks, why? because they cant fe because of the marauder strength early game)
all of these rushes u need to scout and respond accordingly. nothing stops all of it.
what do terran have? reaper rush, marauder rush.. eeee
unless u want to leave terran do the same thing over and over again i suspect u to agree it was a lame idea to think of another tech building for terran. i mean cmon tech lab and academy? thats as high tech as a god damn immortal
Terran have equal opportunities as far as rushes go then. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, Banshee rush (really fucking strong if you miss it), various drop tactics and whatnot.
The rationale behind putting in an additional tech building as a requirement is that is partly negates the strength of Marauders early on by making them less accessible. This gives Protoss more time to work up a counter (be it voids, chargelots, cannons (lol), or immortals). I dont think there is anything inherently wrong with armies consisting of Marauder/Medivac/Ghost other than it feels slightly unnatural from SC1. And I have no problem with Terrans doing this in every game either since mnm is what we see all the time in TvZ in Sc1 (albeit with some lategame twists).
While Mech is weaker than Marauder, it is somewhat viable similar to how mech is somewhat viable against Zerg. Thus, given the right map, I can see situations where Terrans would opt for Mech instead.
Making Maraduer and Immortal equal status in tech is perfectly fine imo.
On April 06 2010 20:28 Plexa wrote: Terran have equal opportunities as far as rushes go then. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, Banshee rush (really fucking strong if you miss it), various drop tactics and whatnot.
The rationale behind putting in an additional tech building as a requirement is that is partly negates the strength of Marauders early on by making them less accessible. This gives Protoss more time to work up a counter (be it voids, chargelots, cannons (lol), or immortals). I dont think there is anything inherently wrong with armies consisting of Marauder/Medivac/Ghost other than it feels slightly unnatural from SC1. And I have no problem with Terrans doing this in every game either since mnm is what we see all the time in TvZ in Sc1 (albeit with some lategame twists).
While Mech is weaker than Marauder, it is somewhat viable similar to how mech is somewhat viable against Zerg. Thus, given the right map, I can see situations where Terrans would opt for Mech instead.
how do u plan to bunker rush a protoss? scvs has less hp zealots come out quicker because of chrono boost. there is no way ur gonna bunker rush a protoss in sc2. so proxi rax and bunker rush is the same thing so what do u have really? banshee rush. we got 5 times more rushes on the toss side and if u add that academy on top of the icing terran will be the DEFENDER just like in sc1, now i sure as hell dont want that. i want both races to have rushing opportunities to make the game more exciting.
On April 06 2010 20:28 Plexa wrote: Terran have equal opportunities as far as rushes go then. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, Banshee rush (really fucking strong if you miss it), various drop tactics and whatnot.
The rationale behind putting in an additional tech building as a requirement is that is partly negates the strength of Marauders early on by making them less accessible. This gives Protoss more time to work up a counter (be it voids, chargelots, cannons (lol), or immortals). I dont think there is anything inherently wrong with armies consisting of Marauder/Medivac/Ghost other than it feels slightly unnatural from SC1. And I have no problem with Terrans doing this in every game either since mnm is what we see all the time in TvZ in Sc1 (albeit with some lategame twists).
While Mech is weaker than Marauder, it is somewhat viable similar to how mech is somewhat viable against Zerg. Thus, given the right map, I can see situations where Terrans would opt for Mech instead.
how do u plan to bunker rush a protoss? scvs has less hp zealots come out quicker because of chrono boost. there is no way ur gonna bunker rush a protoss in sc2. so proxi rax and bunker rush is the same thing so what do u have really? banshee rush. we got 5 times more rushes on the toss side and if u add that academy on top of the icing terran will be the DEFENDER just like in sc1, now i sure as hell dont want that. i want both races to have rushing opportunities to make the game more exciting.
Well as it stands at the moment, at least from what I can see, is that Protoss is the defender while Terran is the aggressor. One race is always going to have to play that role imo.
On April 06 2010 20:33 Qikz wrote: Didn't early days, Marauders required a building called the Mercenary something? Or was that for the reapers?
That was the reaper, I'm suggesting we bring it back for the Marauder.
On April 06 2010 20:28 Plexa wrote: Terran have equal opportunities as far as rushes go then. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, Banshee rush (really fucking strong if you miss it), various drop tactics and whatnot.
The rationale behind putting in an additional tech building as a requirement is that is partly negates the strength of Marauders early on by making them less accessible. This gives Protoss more time to work up a counter (be it voids, chargelots, cannons (lol), or immortals). I dont think there is anything inherently wrong with armies consisting of Marauder/Medivac/Ghost other than it feels slightly unnatural from SC1. And I have no problem with Terrans doing this in every game either since mnm is what we see all the time in TvZ in Sc1 (albeit with some lategame twists).
While Mech is weaker than Marauder, it is somewhat viable similar to how mech is somewhat viable against Zerg. Thus, given the right map, I can see situations where Terrans would opt for Mech instead.
how do u plan to bunker rush a protoss? scvs has less hp zealots come out quicker because of chrono boost. there is no way ur gonna bunker rush a protoss in sc2. so proxi rax and bunker rush is the same thing so what do u have really? banshee rush. we got 5 times more rushes on the toss side and if u add that academy on top of the icing terran will be the DEFENDER just like in sc1, now i sure as hell dont want that. i want both races to have rushing opportunities to make the game more exciting.
Well as it stands at the moment, at least from what I can see, is that Protoss is the defender while Terran is the aggressor. One race is always going to have to play that role imo.
On April 06 2010 20:33 Qikz wrote: Didn't early days, Marauders required a building called the Mercenary something? Or was that for the reapers?
That was the reaper, I'm suggesting we bring it back for the Marauder.
the only reason the terran is the agressor early game now in tvp is because marauders r so ridiculously strong. its even about 50/50, toss can rush just as much as terran can. i dont think marauder fe qualifies as a rush, but it displays that marauder is too strong if we can fe at the same time give the toss a hard time in the toss base with even the 1st marauder. but adding an academy will make toss the agressor always, its also gonna bring back the 13nexus bullshit which sc1 had just because terran needed t2 to move out. do u really want this plexa?
On April 06 2010 20:28 Plexa wrote: Terran have equal opportunities as far as rushes go then. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, Banshee rush (really fucking strong if you miss it), various drop tactics and whatnot.
The rationale behind putting in an additional tech building as a requirement is that is partly negates the strength of Marauders early on by making them less accessible. This gives Protoss more time to work up a counter (be it voids, chargelots, cannons (lol), or immortals). I dont think there is anything inherently wrong with armies consisting of Marauder/Medivac/Ghost other than it feels slightly unnatural from SC1. And I have no problem with Terrans doing this in every game either since mnm is what we see all the time in TvZ in Sc1 (albeit with some lategame twists).
While Mech is weaker than Marauder, it is somewhat viable similar to how mech is somewhat viable against Zerg. Thus, given the right map, I can see situations where Terrans would opt for Mech instead.
Making Maraduer and Immortal equal status in tech is perfectly fine imo.
Sorry but everything u said 'bout Terran-bunker-rush-Protoss is so R-I-D-I-C-U-L-I-O-U-S ... All those rushes can be stopped easily.
On April 06 2010 20:28 Plexa wrote: Terran have equal opportunities as far as rushes go then. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, Banshee rush (really fucking strong if you miss it), various drop tactics and whatnot.
The rationale behind putting in an additional tech building as a requirement is that is partly negates the strength of Marauders early on by making them less accessible. This gives Protoss more time to work up a counter (be it voids, chargelots, cannons (lol), or immortals). I dont think there is anything inherently wrong with armies consisting of Marauder/Medivac/Ghost other than it feels slightly unnatural from SC1. And I have no problem with Terrans doing this in every game either since mnm is what we see all the time in TvZ in Sc1 (albeit with some lategame twists).
While Mech is weaker than Marauder, it is somewhat viable similar to how mech is somewhat viable against Zerg. Thus, given the right map, I can see situations where Terrans would opt for Mech instead.
how do u plan to bunker rush a protoss? scvs has less hp zealots come out quicker because of chrono boost. there is no way ur gonna bunker rush a protoss in sc2. so proxi rax and bunker rush is the same thing so what do u have really? banshee rush. we got 5 times more rushes on the toss side and if u add that academy on top of the icing terran will be the DEFENDER just like in sc1, now i sure as hell dont want that. i want both races to have rushing opportunities to make the game more exciting.
Well as it stands at the moment, at least from what I can see, is that Protoss is the defender while Terran is the aggressor. One race is always going to have to play that role imo.
On April 06 2010 20:33 Qikz wrote: Didn't early days, Marauders required a building called the Mercenary something? Or was that for the reapers?
That was the reaper, I'm suggesting we bring it back for the Marauder.
the only reason the terran is the agressor early game now in tvp is because marauders r so ridiculously strong. its even about 50/50, toss can rush just as much as terran can. i dont think marauder fe qualifies as a rush, but it displays that marauder is too strong if we can fe at the same time give the toss a hard time in the toss base with even the 1st marauder. but adding an academy will make toss the agressor always, its also gonna bring back the 13nexus bullshit which sc1 had just because terran needed t2 to move out. do u really want this plexa?
It's worth a shot while we're still in beta. If it fails miserably then we can revert back. We don't have the opportunity to experiment once the game is released.
On April 06 2010 20:28 Plexa wrote: Terran have equal opportunities as far as rushes go then. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, Banshee rush (really fucking strong if you miss it), various drop tactics and whatnot.
The rationale behind putting in an additional tech building as a requirement is that is partly negates the strength of Marauders early on by making them less accessible. This gives Protoss more time to work up a counter (be it voids, chargelots, cannons (lol), or immortals). I dont think there is anything inherently wrong with armies consisting of Marauder/Medivac/Ghost other than it feels slightly unnatural from SC1. And I have no problem with Terrans doing this in every game either since mnm is what we see all the time in TvZ in Sc1 (albeit with some lategame twists).
While Mech is weaker than Marauder, it is somewhat viable similar to how mech is somewhat viable against Zerg. Thus, given the right map, I can see situations where Terrans would opt for Mech instead.
how do u plan to bunker rush a protoss? scvs has less hp zealots come out quicker because of chrono boost. there is no way ur gonna bunker rush a protoss in sc2. so proxi rax and bunker rush is the same thing so what do u have really? banshee rush. we got 5 times more rushes on the toss side and if u add that academy on top of the icing terran will be the DEFENDER just like in sc1, now i sure as hell dont want that. i want both races to have rushing opportunities to make the game more exciting.
Well as it stands at the moment, at least from what I can see, is that Protoss is the defender while Terran is the aggressor. One race is always going to have to play that role imo.
On April 06 2010 20:33 Qikz wrote: Didn't early days, Marauders required a building called the Mercenary something? Or was that for the reapers?
That was the reaper, I'm suggesting we bring it back for the Marauder.
the only reason the terran is the agressor early game now in tvp is because marauders r so ridiculously strong. its even about 50/50, toss can rush just as much as terran can. i dont think marauder fe qualifies as a rush, but it displays that marauder is too strong if we can fe at the same time give the toss a hard time in the toss base with even the 1st marauder. but adding an academy will make toss the agressor always, its also gonna bring back the 13nexus bullshit which sc1 had just because terran needed t2 to move out. do u really want this plexa?
It's worth a shot while we're still in beta. If it fails miserably then we can revert back. We don't have the opportunity to experiment once the game is released.
we dont have the chance to test every little thing that comes up into ppls minds. why cant u just trust me on my words that this is a bad idea? i explained to u for long time now the issues of this. we cant just test it and say "ok that was bad lets move back to normal", there r thousands of ppl who r playing the beta and is affected by every little change we make, thats why blizzard cant change stuff unless they have made some quality time for round table black board coffee time with the designer crew. blizzard is listening to us, we should be graceful for that but just because they did it once doesnt mean they will do any idea we throw at them. they made static def better because it was a genius idea. they just change stuff if they can convince themselves its a good idea, not just to test it and change back, thats the least they want to do
On April 06 2010 20:28 Plexa wrote: Terran have equal opportunities as far as rushes go then. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, Banshee rush (really fucking strong if you miss it), various drop tactics and whatnot.
The rationale behind putting in an additional tech building as a requirement is that is partly negates the strength of Marauders early on by making them less accessible. This gives Protoss more time to work up a counter (be it voids, chargelots, cannons (lol), or immortals). I dont think there is anything inherently wrong with armies consisting of Marauder/Medivac/Ghost other than it feels slightly unnatural from SC1. And I have no problem with Terrans doing this in every game either since mnm is what we see all the time in TvZ in Sc1 (albeit with some lategame twists).
While Mech is weaker than Marauder, it is somewhat viable similar to how mech is somewhat viable against Zerg. Thus, given the right map, I can see situations where Terrans would opt for Mech instead.
how do u plan to bunker rush a protoss? scvs has less hp zealots come out quicker because of chrono boost. there is no way ur gonna bunker rush a protoss in sc2. so proxi rax and bunker rush is the same thing so what do u have really? banshee rush. we got 5 times more rushes on the toss side and if u add that academy on top of the icing terran will be the DEFENDER just like in sc1, now i sure as hell dont want that. i want both races to have rushing opportunities to make the game more exciting.
Well as it stands at the moment, at least from what I can see, is that Protoss is the defender while Terran is the aggressor. One race is always going to have to play that role imo.
On April 06 2010 20:33 Qikz wrote: Didn't early days, Marauders required a building called the Mercenary something? Or was that for the reapers?
That was the reaper, I'm suggesting we bring it back for the Marauder.
the only reason the terran is the agressor early game now in tvp is because marauders r so ridiculously strong. its even about 50/50, toss can rush just as much as terran can. i dont think marauder fe qualifies as a rush, but it displays that marauder is too strong if we can fe at the same time give the toss a hard time in the toss base with even the 1st marauder. but adding an academy will make toss the agressor always, its also gonna bring back the 13nexus bullshit which sc1 had just because terran needed t2 to move out. do u really want this plexa?
It's worth a shot while we're still in beta. If it fails miserably then we can revert back. We don't have the opportunity to experiment once the game is released.
we dont have the chance to test every little thing that comes up into ppls minds. why cant u just trust me on my words that this is a bad idea? i explained to u for long time now the issues of this. we cant just test it and say "ok that was bad lets move back to normal", there r thousands of ppl who r playing the beta and is affected by every little change we make, thats why blizzard cant change stuff unless they have made some quality time for round table black board coffee time with the designer crew. blizzard is listening to us, we should be graceful for that but just because they did it once doesnt mean they will do any idea we throw at them. they made static def better because it was a genius idea. they just change stuff if they can convince themselves its a good idea, not just to test it and change back, thats the least they want to do
My guess is that they have a parallel beta running internally that they are changing on a weekly basis (if not more regularly) testing various things, and when they get a stable patch they release it. I'm not convinced it is a bad idea, I can see your concerns, but I think that with an appropriate amount of time that Terran will adapt and things will be just as interesting.
On April 06 2010 21:02 suejak wrote: Why doesn't storm slaughter mass marauders?
It actually does. If you got a couple of HT's with a good amount of energy and you spread them out (so they can't be all EMP'ed at once) then a marauder army will melt pretty fast imo. Immortals rape marauders + you can use the sentry's for forcefields and shields.
Sentry's + immortals are doing quite well against marauders.
On April 06 2010 21:02 suejak wrote: Why doesn't storm slaughter mass marauders?
Size of storm radius, health of Marauder, Medivacs
Oh, ok. If storm doesn't slaughter marauders, then that's the problem imo.
EDIT: counter medivacs with phoenix, use storm to weaken marauders, then blitz with zealots... That doesn't work?
stimmed rauders can kite speedlots quite well except for the first charge, the one thing zeals are good at against marauders is taking hits really, unless he's in some situation were he can't run away.
If my previous suggestions have fallen on deaf ears here is what I posted with regard to nerfing the 3 issue units. Since many are opposed to slow removal or nerfs, I avoided them this time.
Immortal to 20+20 from 20+30. Makes terran mech more viable.
Marauder to 100 HP and 8+12 from 125 HP and 10+10. The change in damage makes light units more viable vs Marauders. The Change in HP is with respect to balancing it vs the Roach and Immortal nerfs.
Roach to 115 HP from 145 HP. Possibly a supply change (i dunno if it's needed). The HP is just to keep Roaches on par with Immortals and Marauders. Also makes roaches slightly less overpowered vs zerglings, zealots and other low tier units.
THE MATH see thread: The Roach is what is wrong with SC2. It's a thread on the issues that come from the Terirble 3, the Unholy Trinity, or w/e you call them.
Essentially: The nerfed Immortal kills the nerfed Marauder and roach just as fast as before. The nerfed Marauder and Roach each kill each other 1.25 as fast, so it's balanced between themselves.
Possible side effect include making AoE more effective vs Roach and Marauders, as well as making T1 units slightly better vs them. Still all T1 units are defeated by equal cost in roaches, so Roaches > T1 units.
On April 06 2010 21:02 suejak wrote: Why doesn't storm slaughter mass marauders?
Size of storm radius, health of Marauder, Medivacs
Oh, ok. If storm doesn't slaughter marauders, then that's the problem imo.
EDIT: counter medivacs with phoenix, use storm to weaken marauders, then blitz with zealots... That doesn't work?
stimmed rauders can kite speedlots quite well except for the first charge, the one thing zeals are good at against marauders is taking hits really, unless he's in some situation were he can't run away.
What if you stormed the rauders first, though, then charged?
With stim and Medivacs they Marauders take barely any damage from storms. Stim and move back = GG Storm. You'd have to move in with Sentrys, Forcefield to keep them there, Storm to injure them, then clean up with Zealots - an impossible feat vs Ghosts or just in damn hard in general.
On April 06 2010 21:02 suejak wrote: Why doesn't storm slaughter mass marauders?
Size of storm radius, health of Marauder, Medivacs
Oh, ok. If storm doesn't slaughter marauders, then that's the problem imo.
EDIT: counter medivacs with phoenix, use storm to weaken marauders, then blitz with zealots... That doesn't work?
stimmed rauders can kite speedlots quite well except for the first charge, the one thing zeals are good at against marauders is taking hits really, unless he's in some situation were he can't run away.
What if you stormed the rauders first, though, then charged?
unless the storms practiaclly kill him, which they don't, then he would just continue kiting. Zealots do not beat marauders unless the marauders are standing still.
The medivacs are icing on the cake. Building a stargate and the Phoenixs is pretty much a waste vs Medivacs. No one is complaining about medivacs, they are complaining about Marauders.
unless the storms practiaclly kill him, which they don't, then he would just continue kiting. Zealots do not beat marauders unless the marauders are standing still.
Correct. Charge means your zealots go from hitting ZERO times to Hitting ONCE b4 being kited, and charge unlike slow has CD preventing it from being used immediately once the Marauders move back.
Why can't you throw some phoenix in to take out the medivacs?
You attack with templar+zealots+phoenix. All they have are medivacs and marauders.
If that doesn't work, they need to change it so that works.
Why not make Void rays, u can kill Medivacs and all the Marauders with 1 VOID RAY. ZOMG!! PROBLEM SOLVED!
Marauders stimming = 125 HP to 105 HP. They will take maybe 10 damage from the storm, 20 if the micro is bad.
Spending all those resources to kill the Medivacs will not beat the army on the ground. Next you'll suggest I graviton beam the Marauders 1 by one.
Spending 150/100 per Phoenix while my ground gets raped is not an effective use of resources, especially since Phoenixes can be countered easily by marines.
Like I said, what will prevent him from decimating my ground army? My Phoenix harass on his Medivacs?
On April 06 2010 21:43 Daerthalus wrote: Marauders stimming = 125 HP to 105 HP. They will take maybe 10 damage from the storm, 20 if the micro is bad.
Spending all those resources to kill the Medivacs will not beat the army on the ground. Next you'll suggest I graviton beam the Marauders 1 by one.
Spending 150/100 per Phoenix while my ground gets raped is not an effective use of resources, especially since Phoenixes can be countered easily by marines.
Like I said, what will prevent him from decimating my ground army? My Phoenix harass on his Medivacs?
Well, this ain't rock-paper-scissors, it's a game.
One storm is one storm from one templar. You would presumably need more than one storm if he's got a lot of marauders.
Scratch zealots -- immortals can then go toe-to-toe with the no-medivac marauders.
Marauders cannot attack air. Your phoenix is necessary to take out the medivacs. If he has marines, then he has a pretty solid, diverse army.
- Spawning Pool - Evolution Chamber - Roach Warren - Lair - Hydralisk Den - Baneling Nest - Infestation Pit - Spire - Hive - Ultralisk Cavern - Greater Spire
Now, you might say that, Protoss doesn't need to get Stargate tech AND templar tech AND robotics tech. Same goes for Terran, really: They don't _need_ an armory if they don't plan on getting Thors. They don't need a Fusion Core if they're not going for HSM or BCs. Zerg may not need to get a Baneling Nest, etc.
On April 06 2010 20:09 MorroW wrote: terran already has most upgrades and tech buildings needed to play in the game, ur not thinking far enough ;
Again, not true. Attack and armor upgrades are the same for everyone, so what other upgrades do Terrans need? Stimpack, Combat Shield... am I missing something? Sure, you might want to get Infernal Pre-Igniter, Nitro Packs or Cloak for improved harassment, but they're not necessary upgrades any more than, say, Tunneling Claws for Roaches.
On April 06 2010 21:43 Daerthalus wrote: Marauders stimming = 125 HP to 105 HP. They will take maybe 10 damage from the storm, 20 if the micro is bad.
Spending all those resources to kill the Medivacs will not beat the army on the ground. Next you'll suggest I graviton beam the Marauders 1 by one.
Spending 150/100 per Phoenix while my ground gets raped is not an effective use of resources, especially since Phoenixes can be countered easily by marines.
Like I said, what will prevent him from decimating my ground army? My Phoenix harass on his Medivacs?
Well, this ain't rock-paper-scissors, it's a game.
One storm is one storm from one templar. You would presumably need more than one storm if he's got a lot of marauders.
Scratch zealots -- immortals can then go toe-to-toe with the no-medivac marauders.
Marauders cannot attack air. Your phoenix is necessary to take out the medivacs. If he has marines, then he has a pretty solid, diverse army.
but to get his "diverse army" he will need some barracks with techlabs, and a starport with reactor, but what the P has to get in your example is robo/templar/stargate-tech. To fight a T1.5 army with a support unit.
Doubt it will happen now but for diversity they should revamp the Marauder, Stalker and Roach entirely, they are way too similar.
Zerg has 2~3 melee units Ling (tier 1) Ultralisk (tier 3) ~Baneling
Protoss has 2~3 Zealot (tier 1) Dark Templar (tier 3) ~Archon (tier 3.5)
Terran has no melee unit, in fact, all Terran units have superb range, so I would suggest the Marauder (tier 1.5) was instead turned into a melee unit (with appropriate balancing). This would add greater diversity to the game and would allow for a rebalance.
However, it is very doubtful this will happen but something to consider for the expansion perhaps. It just feels sad that after being so long in development, units are so similar. The only melee unit Terran had in SC1 was even removed.
On April 06 2010 21:27 Daerthalus wrote: If my previous suggestions have fallen on deaf ears here is what I posted with regard to nerfing the 3 issue units. Since many are opposed to slow removal or nerfs, I avoided them this time.
Immortal to 20+20 from 20+30. Makes terran mech more viable.
Marauder to 100 HP and 8+12 from 125 HP and 10+10. The change in damage makes light units more viable vs Marauders. The Change in HP is with respect to balancing it vs the Roach and Immortal nerfs.
Roach to 115 HP from 145 HP. Possibly a supply change (i dunno if it's needed). The HP is just to keep Roaches on par with Immortals and Marauders. Also makes roaches slightly less overpowered vs zerglings, zealots and other low tier units.
THE MATH see thread: The Roach is what is wrong with SC2. It's a thread on the issues that come from the Terirble 3, the Unholy Trinity, or w/e you call them.
Essentially: The nerfed Immortal kills the nerfed Marauder and roach just as fast as before. The nerfed Marauder and Roach each kill each other 1.25 as fast, so it's balanced between themselves.
Possible side effect include making AoE more effective vs Roach and Marauders, as well as making T1 units slightly better vs them. Still all T1 units are defeated by equal cost in roaches, so Roaches > T1 units.
My 2 cents :
I averall like these changes. As a Z player , i wonder how ZvZ would adapt to this. I'm a bit concerned that is migth change from Roaches Vs Roaches to Speedlings Vs Speedlings. But it can not make ZvZ worse that it s already IMHO.
Concerning ZvT.As of now, if the terran goes into a pure marauder army, building any roach is suicidal, i usually stop roaches as soon a i have enough to defend against helions to pure hydra. But hydras are even against marauders, so its still hard to beat the terran. With these changes, Hydras will now demolish the marauders, so i feel like marines would need a small dmg boost, but averall it should be fine ( except that the broodlord is still imba ofcc ).
However, I'm much more concerned when it comes to ZvP. It was allready pretty hard to hold off the initial Protoss attack , but with weaken roaches, it is going to be even harder :/. I would like to see a force field energy cost increase. Something like 50 energy to 75 energy.
So adds these :
* Forcefield cost increased to 75 from 50 * Marine damage incresed by 1.
and, by my opinion, the game would be much more fun
i think a reduction in both hp and especially rate of fire would be whats needed to balance the marauder, a reduction in marine as well as reactor build time should bring rines back as the core unit, if the scv/rine allin is a problem it should be balanced with a longer rax build time
obviously this can only work if the roach is nerfed along with the immortal, the roach is a tough one, it needs serious reworking imho, maybe it would work to give it back its heavy regeneration, make it faster, but have most of its damage converted to + vs light in order to make it more of a harass unit?
- reduce marine build time - reduce reactor build time - marauders hp down quite a bit (85?), attack speed slowed - maybe make marauders a little bit cheaper if they they arent worth their cost any more after those changes - medivac heal speed increased and more hp healed per energy point
makes marines viable again, turns marauders into a support unit, medivac heal change keeps marauders viable in late game even with low hp
- give tanks bonus damage to armored
should make mech more viable
- give half the banshee damage as + vs light
make banshees a harass unit instead of a dominating atg killer
- return scv back to 60hp but only give them 2 damage
wouldnt that always have been the better solution for scv/rine rush?
zerg
- give hydras some of their damage as + vs armored
further helps marines
- give roaches most of their damage as + vs light, make them faster, give them back their heavy regeneration - reduce their hp a little
should turn the roach into a harassment unit
protoss
- increase the amount of damage the immortal can take without activating its shields a little - reduce immortal bonus damage a little
also i would really like to see psi storm brought back to 2 radius :/
On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote: Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not.
On April 06 2010 20:09 MorroW wrote: why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine?
ur killing every single rush possibility of the terran by doing this, marine bunker rush? yea right like thats gonna happen when bunks r 30 and rines r 25
I feel this is an interesting point there should be more discussion about- after all, you'll never be able to agree on fixes for the Marauder if you can't first agree on what's the problem with the Marauder (if any).
Do Terrans have the capacity to be the aggressors most of the time in TvP? Are Protoss just as capable of putting the pressure on Terrans, or maybe even more so? Let's try to figure this out constructively. Early pressure tactics mentioned so far include:
Just as important as the number of ways you can put early pressure on your opponent is, how effective are these strats? If we can get a good grasp on how strong P early pressure is compared to T early pressure, we can get past the first hurdle, namely: agree on what the problem is.
On April 06 2010 21:27 Daerthalus wrote: If my previous suggestions have fallen on deaf ears here is what I posted with regard to nerfing the 3 issue units. Since many are opposed to slow removal or nerfs, I avoided them this time.
Immortal to 20+20 from 20+30. Makes terran mech more viable.
Marauder to 100 HP and 8+12 from 125 HP and 10+10. The change in damage makes light units more viable vs Marauders. The Change in HP is with respect to balancing it vs the Roach and Immortal nerfs.
Roach to 115 HP from 145 HP. Possibly a supply change (i dunno if it's needed). The HP is just to keep Roaches on par with Immortals and Marauders. Also makes roaches slightly less overpowered vs zerglings, zealots and other low tier units.
THE MATH see thread: The Roach is what is wrong with SC2. It's a thread on the issues that come from the Terirble 3, the Unholy Trinity, or w/e you call them.
Essentially: The nerfed Immortal kills the nerfed Marauder and roach just as fast as before. The nerfed Marauder and Roach each kill each other 1.25 as fast, so it's balanced between themselves.
Possible side effect include making AoE more effective vs Roach and Marauders, as well as making T1 units slightly better vs them. Still all T1 units are defeated by equal cost in roaches, so Roaches > T1 units.
However, I'm much more concerned when it comes to ZvP. It was allready pretty hard to hold off the initial Protoss attack , but with weaken roaches, it is going to be even harder :/. I would like to see a force field energy cost increase. Something like 50 energy to 75 energy.
So adds these :
* Forcefield cost increased to 75 from 50 * Marine damage incresed by 1.
and, by my opinion, the game would be much more fun
That would completely break 2v2 and make Protoss impossible to play. The only thing Toss can do atm in 2v2 to stop his base from getting overrun early on is to force field. If it was increased to 75 there would no possible way to stop some of these rushes.
On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote: Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not.
On April 06 2010 20:09 MorroW wrote: why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine?
ur killing every single rush possibility of the terran by doing this, marine bunker rush? yea right like thats gonna happen when bunks r 30 and rines r 25
I feel this is an interesting point there should be more discussion about- after all, you'll never be able to agree on fixes for the Marauder if you can't first agree on what's the problem with the Marauder (if any).
Do Terrans have the capacity to be the aggressors most of the time in TvP? Are Protoss just as capable of putting the pressure on Terrans, or maybe even more so? Let's try to figure this out constructively. Early pressure tactics mentioned so far include:
Just as important as the number of ways you can put early pressure on your opponent is, how effective are these strats? If we can get a good grasp on how strong P early pressure is compared to T early pressure, we can get past the first hurdle, namely: agree on what the problem is.
Excellent post. I'll try redirect the thread in this direction.
On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote: Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not.
On April 06 2010 20:09 MorroW wrote: why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine?
ur killing every single rush possibility of the terran by doing this, marine bunker rush? yea right like thats gonna happen when bunks r 30 and rines r 25
I feel this is an interesting point there should be more discussion about- after all, you'll never be able to agree on fixes for the Marauder if you can't first agree on what's the problem with the Marauder (if any).
Do Terrans have the capacity to be the aggressors most of the time in TvP? Are Protoss just as capable of putting the pressure on Terrans, or maybe even more so? Let's try to figure this out constructively. Early pressure tactics mentioned so far include:
Just as important as the number of ways you can put early pressure on your opponent is, how effective are these strats? If we can get a good grasp on how strong P early pressure is compared to T early pressure, we can get past the first hurdle, namely: agree on what the problem is.
Excellent post. I'll try redirect the thread in this direction.
Once again, as a Z player, i will give my insigth on the ZvT matchup. Before anyone ask, I am a ~1150 platinum player. Not a great player, but not a bad one either.
In the beginning of the beta, every one thougth that Marine > Hydra > Marauders > Roaches > Marines.This led to great mixed armies as each player tried to have the perfect mix of hydra/roaches and marines.
However, nowadays, more and more people realizes that Marauders = Hydras. SO there is basically no need for marines anymore until mutas ( wich cant be rushed or the marauder push will just rape the Z , plus mutas does very little damage to marauders so they will deal a LOT of damage before deing)
I have nothing against Marauder being core of the T army. But my current concern is that the marauder makes the marines useless. This is somewhat true in ZvT, and seems to be even more of a concern in ZvP ( but i will let TvPs expert confirm this.).
Phoenixes are not necessary against Medivacs. Templars can Feedback Medivacs, good enough. The problem with Marauders is that they indeed make it impossible to put pressure on the Terran early on. Zealots are no good, Stalkers are no good... You need to be defensive, you can only play aggressively once you get a few Immortals.
I think it's quite simple, you either nerf the damage or the slow. Nerfing both would be insane and would make Marauders worthless, but the combination of the two makes them too deadly.
yes very good idea lets make marines with 45HP and 6 Damage the core unit of a Terran Army. So that every Protoss needs just an army 1/4 as big as Terrans consisting of stalkers and some Sentrys. Sentrys have the same range of Marines and Guardianshield reduces damage by -33% and Stalkers outrange Marines.
GOOD JOB now we can play sc1 because Protoss will have Mapcontroll of the start again and will just expand like crazy.
edit
On April 06 2010 23:06 Spaylz wrote: Phoenixes are not necessary against Medivacs. Templars can Feedback Medivacs, good enough. The problem with Marauders is that they indeed make it impossible to put pressure on the Terran early on. Zealots are no good, Stalkers are no good... You need to be defensive, you can only play aggressively once you get a few Immortals.
I think it's quite simple, you either nerf the damage or the slow. Nerfing both would be insane and would make Marauders worthless, but the combination of the two makes them too deadly.
sounds like sc1 TvP. terrans got used to it and now its time that protoss get used to it, if they dont like it change the race and use "imba terran" and get #1 ranks on all servers.
On April 06 2010 23:32 MeProU_Kor wrote: yes very good idea lets make marines with 45HP and 6 Damage the core unit of a Terran Army. So that every Protoss needs just an army 1/4 as big as Terrans consisting of stalkers and some Sentrys. Sentrys have the same range of Marines and Guardianshield reduces damage by -33% and Stalkers outrange Marines.
GOOD JOB now we can play sc1 because Protoss will have Mapcontroll of the start again and will just expand like crazy.
You don't have to mock every single suggestion people make. Marauders do make Marines fairly useless. We hardly see any, he's got a point.
It would be very nice if Blizzard addressed this beta like they did with WC3/Frozen Throne. For example: revamp entire damage/armor system and see how it goes; remove the evil trinity (marauder/roach/immortal) from the game for a week to see how it plays out. Sadly all they do is tweaking numbers and adding/removing crappy caster abilities ;( I'm looking forward to the map editor that should come mid April. Then we will be able to create mods with whatever balance changes to test them.
On April 06 2010 23:32 MeProU_Kor wrote: yes very good idea lets make marines with 45HP and 6 Damage the core unit of a Terran Army. So that every Protoss needs just an army 1/4 as big as Terrans consisting of stalkers and some Sentrys. Sentrys have the same range of Marines and Guardianshield reduces damage by -33% and Stalkers outrange Marines.
GOOD JOB now we can play sc1 because Protoss will have Mapcontroll of the start again and will just expand like crazy.
You don't have to mock every single suggestion people make. Marauders do make Marines fairly useless. We hardly see any, he's got a point.
im sorry but it makes me angry that (nearly) every player of other races jumps in every thread about balance issues and writes "yes nerf this", "yes less HP" and "yes les damage". Terran can put pressure on Protoss while expanding (like PvT in sc1) but Terran needs more expansions than Protoss because the Protoss army is WAAAAY more costeffective (like PvT sc1).
all i see is "wow i cant controll the game of start blizzard plz fix it, so i can be platinum #1 with my starcraft D- skills".
you CANT change marauders without buffing Marines drastically. blizzard wants Bio AND Mech to be playable vs Protoss, so you CANT JUST buff Mech and nerf Marauders. nerfing marauders means buffing marines drastically to let bio a playable option. playable means marines can survive at least 1 storm without micro and dont die to 1shoot of marauders. these changes would destryoy TvZ.
A small idea, what if the special effect of the marauder was to reduce armor instead of slowing down? IT would reduce armor down to a maximum of 0. That would turn marauder into a good support unit with marines. Each marine shot would deal more damage to high armor units (roaches).
On April 06 2010 23:32 MeProU_Kor wrote: yes very good idea lets make marines with 45HP and 6 Damage the core unit of a Terran Army. So that every Protoss needs just an army 1/4 as big as Terrans consisting of stalkers and some Sentrys. Sentrys have the same range of Marines and Guardianshield reduces damage by -33% and Stalkers outrange Marines.
GOOD JOB now we can play sc1 because Protoss will have Mapcontroll of the start again and will just expand like crazy.
You don't have to mock every single suggestion people make. Marauders do make Marines fairly useless. We hardly see any, he's got a point.
im sorry but it makes me angry that (nearly) every player of other races jumps in every thread about balance issues and writes "yes nerf this", "yes less HP" and "yes les damage". Terran can put pressure on Protoss while expanding (like PvT in sc1) but Terran needs more expansions than Protoss because the Protoss army is WAAAAY more costeffective (like PvT sc1).
all i see is "wow i cant controll the game of start blizzard plz fix it, so i can be platinum #1 with my starcraft D- skills".
you CANT change marauders without buffing Marines drastically. blizzard wants Bio AND Mech to be playable vs Protoss, so you CANT JUST buff Mech and nerf Marauders. nerfing marauders means buffing marines drastically to let bio a playable option. playable means marines can survive at least 1 storm without micro and dont die to 1shoot of marauders. these changes would destryoy TvZ.
In SC one Protoss needed more expansions than terran. PvT SC1 terran were MUCH more cost effective and the protoss were the ones rambo-ing into the terran mines and tank lines. PvT were not balanced exactly via their units, but by the entire span of the game. Of course the protoss were more mobile so as a P you usually tried to stay at least one base ahead. Bio is supposed to be cost effective mobile DPS, but very fragile to AOE. The marauder is a bio unit with 125 HP. Compare that to a tank with 150 hp. You have fast shooting, fast moving, healable tanks just running around blasting stuff. Something is wrong.
On April 06 2010 23:32 MeProU_Kor wrote: yes very good idea lets make marines with 45HP and 6 Damage the core unit of a Terran Army. So that every Protoss needs just an army 1/4 as big as Terrans consisting of stalkers and some Sentrys. Sentrys have the same range of Marines and Guardianshield reduces damage by -33% and Stalkers outrange Marines.
GOOD JOB now we can play sc1 because Protoss will have Mapcontroll of the start again and will just expand like crazy.
You don't have to mock every single suggestion people make. Marauders do make Marines fairly useless. We hardly see any, he's got a point.
im sorry but it makes me angry that (nearly) every player of other races jumps in every thread about balance issues and writes "yes nerf this", "yes less HP" and "yes les damage". Terran can put pressure on Protoss while expanding (like PvT in sc1) but Terran needs more expansions than Protoss because the Protoss army is WAAAAY more costeffective (like PvT sc1).
all i see is "wow i cant controll the game of start blizzard plz fix it, so i can be platinum #1 with my starcraft D- skills".
you CANT change marauders without buffing Marines drastically. blizzard wants Bio AND Mech to be playable vs Protoss, so you CANT JUST buff Mech and nerf Marauders. nerfing marauders means buffing marines drastically to let bio a playable option. playable means marines can survive at least 1 storm without micro and dont die to 1shoot of marauders. these changes would destryoy TvZ.
I think you're wrong. Roaches and probably Immortals would need to get nerfed along with Marauders. Marines wouldn't need any buff themselves, since said nerfs would make them more viable.
im sorry but it makes me angry that (nearly) every player of other races jumps in every thread about balance issues and writes "yes nerf this", "yes less HP" and "yes les damage". Terran can put pressure on Protoss while expanding (like PvT in sc1) but Terran needs more expansions than Protoss because the Protoss army is WAAAAY more costeffective (like PvT sc1).
apologies accepted
As i stated before, i do not play PvT and do not know much about it ( I watch streams and read TL threads). I suggested changes that would made marines more viable in ZvT. Plus the goal is not to move from a pure marauder army to a pure marine army. With the change suggested ( Marauder/Roaches/Immortal nerf) i feel like Marauders would still be a viable option against protoss.
Now I admit that " Sentries Negates marines from doing any damage" is a good point. Maybe the ghost EMP could remove the senties shield or would it be too OP ?
On April 06 2010 23:06 Spaylz wrote: Phoenixes are not necessary against Medivacs. Templars can Feedback Medivacs, good enough. The problem with Marauders is that they indeed make it impossible to put pressure on the Terran early on. Zealots are no good, Stalkers are no good... You need to be defensive, you can only play aggressively once you get a few Immortals.
I think it's quite simple, you either nerf the damage or the slow. Nerfing both would be insane and would make Marauders worthless, but the combination of the two makes them too deadly.
I love this, though. It sounds like P can fight marauder+medivac with templar+immortal -- which definitely rules out early aggression from the P.
I also loved the idea that charge would make zealots immune to the slow effect. That's AWESOME. Somebody important should make that change alone -- charge zealots+templar should definitely be an effective counter to marauders.
On April 07 2010 00:18 slimshady wrote: Actually, I like this idea: the zealot's charge being immune to the marauder's slow effect.
It still wouldn't solve the early game issue. Charge is a long upgrade to get...
I mean, if they get lots of marauders early, you'll just have to dodge and weave with your zealot worker harass or focus on defense until you get charge. Sounds like standard strategy-game fare to me...
On April 06 2010 23:32 MeProU_Kor wrote: yes very good idea lets make marines with 45HP and 6 Damage the core unit of a Terran Army. So that every Protoss needs just an army 1/4 as big as Terrans consisting of stalkers and some Sentrys. Sentrys have the same range of Marines and Guardianshield reduces damage by -33% and Stalkers outrange Marines.
GOOD JOB now we can play sc1 because Protoss will have Mapcontroll of the start again and will just expand like crazy.
You don't have to mock every single suggestion people make. Marauders do make Marines fairly useless. We hardly see any, he's got a point.
im sorry but it makes me angry that (nearly) every player of other races jumps in every thread about balance issues and writes "yes nerf this", "yes less HP" and "yes les damage". Terran can put pressure on Protoss while expanding (like PvT in sc1) but Terran needs more expansions than Protoss because the Protoss army is WAAAAY more costeffective (like PvT sc1).
all i see is "wow i cant controll the game of start blizzard plz fix it, so i can be platinum #1 with my starcraft D- skills".
you CANT change marauders without buffing Marines drastically. blizzard wants Bio AND Mech to be playable vs Protoss, so you CANT JUST buff Mech and nerf Marauders. nerfing marauders means buffing marines drastically to let bio a playable option. playable means marines can survive at least 1 storm without micro and dont die to 1shoot of marauders. these changes would destryoy TvZ.
In SC one Protoss needed more expansions than terran. PvT SC1 terran were MUCH more cost effective and the protoss were the ones rambo-ing into the terran mines and tank lines. PvT were not balanced exactly via their units, but by the entire span of the game. Of course the protoss were more mobile so as a P you usually tried to stay at least one base ahead. Bio is supposed to be cost effective mobile DPS, but very fragile to AOE. The marauder is a bio unit with 125 HP. Compare that to a tank with 150 hp. You have fast shooting, fast moving, healable tanks just running around blasting stuff. Something is wrong.
thats what i said? just that PvT sc1 is now like TvP sc2. i f you want bio as a playable option you need at least one strong unit with much HP. otherwise it wont work. if it makes all the newbies happy make slow down a tech for 100/100 so that no one wont die to an early marauder push (for me its the same like 10/15 Gate in sc1). seriously its poor that you need to "fix" a race because people arent able to use their own race. i never die to marauder pressure and i dont know any ally who dies to something like that. so imo its not marauders that ned to get fixed, its the playstyle of some crying protoss that need to get fixed. the time where the first marauder arrives in your base you will have a zeal or a stalker and with chrono + homeadvantage u will have a zeal + a stalker and i seriously dont know how someone can die at this point O_O all you need is to get a sentry some seconds later and FF the ramp if the terran tries to go up the ramp, splitting the terran "army" in 2 parts and take out the half of his force.
sure if you rush 1gate + robo without a unit you should get punsihed for it.
Maras are supposed to counter armor. Change their damage to 8 + 8 vs armored. Remove the slow. Keep stims and health at 125 for tanking purposes. Add the D8 charges ability. Charges deal Aoe damage to armored and buildings, but have a cooldown of 5 seconds or something and have a 1 second detonation time. These do not really counter light units; just armored and buildings. Thus the Mara is no longer overpowered vs. melee units for kiting, and due to the damage reduction isn't solely mass-able anymore. With the D8 charges, they can still counter big clumps of armored units effectively, and can also see play as base siege units. This makes Mara no longer an A-move unit, but one you need to micro for good charge placement. It's health remains the same to act as a meatshield for bio armies.
Along with this change, the Reaper also gets changed:
Reapers loose their building damage D8 charge attack, and instead gain Concussive Bullets, which is the exact snare that Mara currently have. Decrease build time and perhaps increase HP by 10. Reapers still fulfill the role of worker harass, but now would also see play to counter melee units.
This would diversify bio armies, make the Mara less OP while still fulfilling its role, and make the Reaper more useful.
Thoughts?
Edit: Also, this would accompany appropriate changes to the Immortal and the Roach. Imho, decrease Roach HP to 80ish, increase armor to 3, add a slight HP regen and increase supply to 2. Change Regeneration upgrade so it heals more underground, and about half as much above ground to keep them viable as damage sponges late game. Early/mid game you can't mass as many, but they are still very viable tanks for tier one units. Stronger attacks like stalkers, tanks, thors, Psi Storm, etc, can kill them easier making them less "ZOMG they won't die", and restores the need to micro burrow roaches when they are wounded, instead of just a mass ball of A-Move.
Immortals should be cheaper, more of a Tank unit, and only have a +10 to Armored. With roach and Marauder change, you wouldn't need so much anti-armor, hopefully.
On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote: Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not.
On April 06 2010 20:09 MorroW wrote: why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine?
ur killing every single rush possibility of the terran by doing this, marine bunker rush? yea right like thats gonna happen when bunks r 30 and rines r 25
I feel this is an interesting point there should be more discussion about- after all, you'll never be able to agree on fixes for the Marauder if you can't first agree on what's the problem with the Marauder (if any).
Do Terrans have the capacity to be the aggressors most of the time in TvP? Are Protoss just as capable of putting the pressure on Terrans, or maybe even more so? Let's try to figure this out constructively. Early pressure tactics mentioned so far include:
Just as important as the number of ways you can put early pressure on your opponent is, how effective are these strats? If we can get a good grasp on how strong P early pressure is compared to T early pressure, we can get past the first hurdle, namely: agree on what the problem is.
Excellent post. I'll try redirect the thread in this direction.
great pos except its not true -drops? ive never seen any terran ever going fast drop against toss, why would u do it? how can this be effective. scratch this off the list because fast drop by terran is just as likely and just as effective as a fast drop by toss (which ive seen alot more of) bunker rush? same here, ive never seen a bunker rush. a bunker takes 30 seconds to make and scvs got 45 hp. even if bunker rush was possible it would include in the proxi rax so it wouldnt qualify as 2
On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote: Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not.
On April 06 2010 20:09 MorroW wrote: why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine?
ur killing every single rush possibility of the terran by doing this, marine bunker rush? yea right like thats gonna happen when bunks r 30 and rines r 25
I feel this is an interesting point there should be more discussion about- after all, you'll never be able to agree on fixes for the Marauder if you can't first agree on what's the problem with the Marauder (if any).
Do Terrans have the capacity to be the aggressors most of the time in TvP? Are Protoss just as capable of putting the pressure on Terrans, or maybe even more so? Let's try to figure this out constructively. Early pressure tactics mentioned so far include:
Just as important as the number of ways you can put early pressure on your opponent is, how effective are these strats? If we can get a good grasp on how strong P early pressure is compared to T early pressure, we can get past the first hurdle, namely: agree on what the problem is.
Excellent post. I'll try redirect the thread in this direction.
Once again, as a Z player, i will give my insigth on the ZvT matchup. Before anyone ask, I am a ~1150 platinum player. Not a great player, but not a bad one either.
In the beginning of the beta, every one thougth that Marine > Hydra > Marauders > Roaches > Marines.This led to great mixed armies as each player tried to have the perfect mix of hydra/roaches and marines.
However, nowadays, more and more people realizes that Marauders = Hydras. SO there is basically no need for marines anymore until mutas ( wich cant be rushed or the marauder push will just rape the Z , plus mutas does very little damage to marauders so they will deal a LOT of damage before deing)
I have nothing against Marauder being core of the T army. But my current concern is that the marauder makes the marines useless. This is somewhat true in ZvT, and seems to be even more of a concern in ZvP ( but i will let TvPs expert confirm this.).
tl:dr :
Marauder strength makes the marine useless.
totally agree. this is the problem i have with marauders, ever since patch 6 they took the thunder away from the marines totally
On April 07 2010 00:18 slimshady wrote: Actually, I like this idea: the zealot's charge being immune to the marauder's slow effect. Zealots won't be so useless vs marauders.
the problem is whenever marauders get charged they can just back for 2-3 seconds and zealot wont get an attack off and they r back to square 1. zealots themselves cant touch the marauders in a battle like this without flank or high numbers that causes ai issues to the marauders, the charge doesnt do squat even if it wasnt slowed
On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote: Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not.
On April 06 2010 20:09 MorroW wrote: why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine?
ur killing every single rush possibility of the terran by doing this, marine bunker rush? yea right like thats gonna happen when bunks r 30 and rines r 25
I feel this is an interesting point there should be more discussion about- after all, you'll never be able to agree on fixes for the Marauder if you can't first agree on what's the problem with the Marauder (if any).
Do Terrans have the capacity to be the aggressors most of the time in TvP? Are Protoss just as capable of putting the pressure on Terrans, or maybe even more so? Let's try to figure this out constructively. Early pressure tactics mentioned so far include:
Just as important as the number of ways you can put early pressure on your opponent is, how effective are these strats? If we can get a good grasp on how strong P early pressure is compared to T early pressure, we can get past the first hurdle, namely: agree on what the problem is.
Excellent post. I'll try redirect the thread in this direction.
Once again, as a Z player, i will give my insigth on the ZvT matchup. Before anyone ask, I am a ~1150 platinum player. Not a great player, but not a bad one either.
In the beginning of the beta, every one thougth that Marine > Hydra > Marauders > Roaches > Marines.This led to great mixed armies as each player tried to have the perfect mix of hydra/roaches and marines.
However, nowadays, more and more people realizes that Marauders = Hydras. SO there is basically no need for marines anymore until mutas ( wich cant be rushed or the marauder push will just rape the Z , plus mutas does very little damage to marauders so they will deal a LOT of damage before deing)
I have nothing against Marauder being core of the T army. But my current concern is that the marauder makes the marines useless. This is somewhat true in ZvT, and seems to be even more of a concern in ZvP ( but i will let TvPs expert confirm this.).
tl:dr :
Marauder strength makes the marine useless.
Totally agree here.
And it's not only the marauder strength that makes marines useless. You say marines aren't needed until mutas, but as of patch 7, thors are now a much better counter to mutas than marines, making marines even less needed in TvZ. And if you go MMM, then you already have the factory, just plop down a tech lab while making an armory, and make 2-3 thors to counter muta.
Against hydras, marines only outperform marauders if you have shields, and even then only by the smallest of margins. And even then against hydras, I would argue that 1 reactor factory pumping igniter hellions > marines. Plus marines are far more susceptible to fungal growth + banelings, there really isn't any need to go marines in TvZ unless you are somehow caught off guard by super-fast mutas.
Marauder > Siege Tank.. The game is broken currently imo.. A "Marine" type of unit shouldnt be able to kill a Siege Tank. Thats how i feel about this game. Nothing is correct currently.. Roaches having 145 hp killing everything with its big damage and armor. Immortal having their super shield which neglects nearly everything in a small amount. The game is broken and needs a fix.. Every "ability" in this game is either ON or OFF. Why cant it be half-on? half-off?
Imo Blizzard has sooo much potential of making this a good game but for now gives the game nothing. The damage system includes ONLY Boosts and no Penalties.. This is one of the biggest errors, not utilizing a better damage system than this.
Feels like the game has come down to a 5-10 age game. Make a more complex game!
Why has the immortal such a good advantage with its max 10dmg shield where no other unit has something cool that is good?
Ugh i could go on and on about all the errors Blizz had made in my eyes. But who cares about what i think anyway.. GG
Without going full circle again, I think that Terran players are simply spoiled. You get a unit you can mass all game long, that barely requires any micro vs protoss ground units, and that can be healed and stimmed. I don't blame you, If zerg or protoss had a unit like that, we'd build nothing else either. The end result is that you narrow your strategic vision to why build A,B or C when D is always better. Maybe A,B, and C are all balanced units and combined with E and F you'd have a very good army, BUT nooo...D (aka Marauders) are limiting your vision you never get to thinking about E and F cuz the thought process never gets past USE D.
You want a Bio tanking unit, that also harasses, kites, slows and blows up buildings. Make a choice. Get a slowing unit for support, or a tanking unit to tank and beat on armor.
100 HP is still more than 2x a Marine, 8+12 Damage is the same dps vs armored as before, and u still have slow to kite banelings, zealots and other units around. 125 HP, 10+10, but no slow...u end up with a Bigger Badder Marine that hit armored unit hard but that loses to cheap masses of units.
I for one am not against Terran receiving other buffs or undoing some marine/reactor nerfs should a Marauder nerf take place, but we shouldn't assume that is it absolutely required.
And it's not only the marauder strength that makes marines useless. You say marines aren't needed until mutas, but as of patch 7, thors are now a much better counter to mutas than marines, making marines even less needed in TvZ. And if you go MMM, then you already have the factory, just plop down a tech lab while making an armory, and make 2-3 thors to counter muta.
Marines are a perfectly viable solution to Mutas which don't leave you open to zerglings. Thors have a hard time dealing with lings. Marines also benefit from the same upgrades as Marauders, unlike thors.
You can't look at a unit in a vacuum. Mutas are gas heavy, so zerg usually accompanies them with mineral only speedlings. If you mass marines then you get hit by fungal growth / banelings, meaning u'll want ghosts vs Infestors OR More Marauders vs Banelings.
He switches to making infestors or banelings, you make some maraunders or ghosts. If he overdoes it, you switch to thors, as all the resources wasted on Banelings / Infestors mean less mutas and lings, making a few thors more viable.
It's the ebb and flow of SC. You react, they react...repeat.
On April 07 2010 02:09 BlasiuS wrote: Totally agree here.
And it's not only the marauder strength that makes marines useless. You say marines aren't needed until mutas, but as of patch 7, thors are now a much better counter to mutas than marines, making marines even less needed in TvZ. And if you go MMM, then you already have the factory, just plop down a tech lab while making an armory, and make 2-3 thors to counter muta.
You do realize Mutas are more effective post-patch 7 than pre-patch 7 against Thors if you split them properly, right? If Thors are the only anti-air you have, there's no downside to splitting up your mutas, making the Thor's AoE attack fairly useless. Thors are slow as all hell and will struggle to defend both your main force plus multiple bases from Mutas. There's also the fact that Void Rays, being armored, take little damage from Thors, and deal a lot of damage back to them, because they apply their bonus damage to armored. Thors do not make marines useless vs. Air, by a long shot- It's the marine's ground attack that is overshadowed, because they just aren't good enough compared to Marauders there.
@Morrow: If Marauder fast-expand is effective and Protoss have been rushing to Immortals to deal with it, doesn't it follow that Terrans are a lot stronger than Protoss in the early game? I mean, if they can afford to expand safely but Protoss can't, that would mean Marauders can hold the line even if you're spending a lot of resources on an expansion, while Protoss can't afford to do the same. Am I right in thinking this? Because even if in this strategy Protoss is the aggressor, that's only because Terran's choosing an economical opening, right?
On the other hand, if Terran chose a more marauder-heavy opening with no expansion, we can assume he would be the aggressor while the Protoss would have to play defensively, even if the Protoss didn't go for an economic opening. Please correct me if I'm wrong :p
And it's not only the marauder strength that makes marines useless. You say marines aren't needed until mutas, but as of patch 7, thors are now a much better counter to mutas than marines, making marines even less needed in TvZ. And if you go MMM, then you already have the factory, just plop down a tech lab while making an armory, and make 2-3 thors to counter muta.
Marines are a perfectly viable solution to Mutas which don't leave you open to zerglings. Thors have a hard time dealing with lings. Marines also benefit from the same upgrades as Marauders, unlike thors.
You can't look at a unit in a vacuum. Mutas are gas heavy, so zerg usually accompanies them with mineral only speedlings. If you mass marines then you get hit by fungal growth / banelings, meaning u'll want ghosts vs Infestors OR More Marauders vs Banelings.
He switches to making infestors or banelings, you make some maraunders or ghosts. If he overdoes it, you switch to thors, as all the resources wasted on Banelings / Infestors mean less mutas and lings, making a few thors more viable.
It's the ebb and flow of SC. You react, they react...repeat.
MedaMarauder deals with lings just fine, especially once you have +1 infantry armor, so it's not like you're somehow 'open' to zerglings if you make thors. Besides if you're having trouble with speedlings, hellions are far better against them than marines. Obviously I'm not simply looking at thor v muta without taking anything else into account -_-
Meanwhile banelings/fungal growth hard-counter marines HARD. Much harder than speedlings counter marauders. Not worth getting marines in TvZ. Anything they do you can do more efficiently with other units.
On April 07 2010 03:15 Zato-1 wrote:
You do realize Mutas are more effective post-patch 7 than pre-patch 7 against Thors if you split them properly, right? If Thors are the only anti-air you have, there's no downside to splitting up your mutas, making the Thor's AoE attack fairly useless. Thors are slow as all hell and will struggle to defend both your main force plus multiple bases from Mutas. There's also the fact that Void Rays, being armored, take little damage from Thors, and deal a lot of damage back to them, because they apply their bonus damage to armored. Thors do not make marines useless vs. Air, by a long shot- It's the marine's ground attack that is overshadowed, because they just aren't good enough compared to Marauders there.
I think you're overestimating the damage reduction of Thor's AA attack, and underestimating how effective its splash is. It's incredibly hard to separate out all your mutas against 2 or 3 thors.
I have yet to see a good zerg take advantage of thor's weaker attack using mutas. If you can provide a replay, great. There's plenty of high-level TvZ games out there that show how well thors counter muta, you can go look them up if you doubt thor's effectiveness against muta.
Turrets take care of muta harass at your bases.
I'm not even going to respond to the void rays comment, since I was only talking about TvZ.
I guess everyone agrees that Marauders are the unit of choice in almost every tvz/tvp. They are fairly easily massable and don't have too many major weaknesses aside from air. Many will agree that they shouldn't be the only reasonable choice THAT often, not for balance reasons but for desgin/gameplay reasons. Similar issues arise with Roaches.
So by nerfing both Marauders and Roaches other units will become comparatively more viable. This obviously creates balance issues that need to be addressed though. The most immediate change would be to nerf Imortal bonus damage because their main purpose is countering Marauders and Roaches. The Immortal probably isn't the only unit that needs to be fixed as a reaction though. If Marauders and Roaches are nerfed I expect a cascade of small nerfs/buffs here and there.
I advise that the only changes on Marauders/Roaches should be simple, namely attack speed, HP, build time. Other changes like damage, resource/supply cost, range, movement speed can have extreme effects even with seemingly small changes. Since both Marauders and Roaches are core units in an army, such changes have the potential to mess up balance severely.
On April 05 2010 19:09 Paladia wrote: Any reason why the Marauder easily beats Stalkers in 1v1 (and even more so in bigger fights) when they cost like half of what the Stalker does, yet they can be healed, stimmed, not EMPed and has a passive slow attack?
Don't come with something like "Stalker can attack air so its balanced" since there is never anything the Marauder would ever even want to attack in air in TvP, as the Protoss air is extremely lackluster. So even if they could attack air as well there would be no difference for the balance of the match-up.
As Stalker, Roach and Marauder are way too similar in design I would suggest making the Marauder melee (with some altered stats), that would balance it and make the tier 1.5 more unique.
Marauders are the counter to stalkers .... it has been said so by blizzard deal with it ?
Also blink harsment by stalkers is crazy and has sooo much potential. You can blink anywhere on map you have a obs.
melee unit i don't even know what to say to that LOL
How can you actually seriously propose Stalkers with blink vs Marauders? The build time for the council and the research time, even with chrono boost is ridiculous let alone the costs too.
Did not say that blink was to counter stalkers i said that marauders counter stalkers deal with it. Then other guy listed some things we could do with marauders so i just said hey look you have blink to do some cool things / usefull.
Altho i guess blink could help them run away : P lol
On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote: Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not. I have no issues with Medivac/Marauder/Ghost being the core of Terran armies, Protoss have enough stuff to make it an even fight later on. Thus, I think that the best way to balance the Marauder (and potentially Reaper) is re-introduce the Merc Haven (or Academy) and make that building a prerequisite for building the Marauder. Perhaps adding slow as an upgrade there would be good too (as well as reaper speed, if you want to put the reaper there too). This slows down how fast Terran can get the Marauder and hence makes Rushes significantly weaker. It adds an extra tech building making them less attractive in TvZ (making Mech more favorable) and should iron out any problems in TvP.
Thoughts?
Think this would slow down marauders a bit to much. Roachs would overrun use with just marines and banlings bust would be .... intresting lol. Think the time we can get marauders is perfect the way it is.
Slow as a upgrade on a new building that you would have to build would be intresting i guess. But i still don't like having the maruder have no counter early game.
Still feel like slow not slowing melee units or just zealots/zerglings would still be the best. Quick easy. stop marauder cheese cold.
On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote: Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not. I have no issues with Medivac/Marauder/Ghost being the core of Terran armies, Protoss have enough stuff to make it an even fight later on. Thus, I think that the best way to balance the Marauder (and potentially Reaper) is re-introduce the Merc Haven (or Academy) and make that building a prerequisite for building the Marauder. Perhaps adding slow as an upgrade there would be good too (as well as reaper speed, if you want to put the reaper there too). This slows down how fast Terran can get the Marauder and hence makes Rushes significantly weaker. It adds an extra tech building making them less attractive in TvZ (making Mech more favorable) and should iron out any problems in TvP.
Thoughts?
why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine?
terran already has a shitload of techbuildings, they spend so much time on tech i think its enough man
this woudlnt change anything, it would just cost the terrans to tweak our bo alittle but nothing big and everything is back to the same
ur killing every single rush possibility of the terran by doing this, marine bunker rush? yea right like thats gonna happen when bunks r 30 and rines r 25
all u would acomplish is to add another tech building with 0 upgrades in it afaik, or maybe u want to move all tech lab grades to the academy? its a tech lab its supposed to contain the upgrades... academy has no purpose in sc2 as long as the tech lab is here
terran already has most upgrades and tech buildings needed to play in the game, ur not thinking far enough ;
Cause they have no HP and get raped by banlings, colos, storm HSM and fungle growth. Marauders need to be the meat with rines as the dps.
On April 07 2010 04:08 The_Piper42 wrote: I agree with Morrow. My vote:
Marauder: Decrease slow effect from -50% to -33% Increase build time by 5 seconds
Immortal: Decrease bonus damage versus armored from +30 to +25
Roach: Decrease starting armor from 2 to 1
EDIT: Reactor: Decrease build time (not sure how much, but they're falling out of use now)
That would definitely be a step in the right direction, but my opinion is, that Units like Marauder, Roach and Immortal just need complete overhauls rather than little changes...
Also, it's not always about nerfing Units, but also buffing others, that maybe aren't direct counters.
Look at the Stalker for example - it's a versatile Unit, that's true, but compared to Marauder and Roach, the Stalker is just incredibly weak. It doesn't really matter that he has bigger range than Roach or can shoot in the Air when you are just being demolished by mass-marauders or mass-roaches. I mean; you pay 125/50 for a Unit that gets demolished by a Marauder, which is 100/25 and Roaches for the same investment pwn the Stalkers too. It's nice that Protoss has a versatile T1,5-Unit, but it's just sad that massing>>>strategical play in SC2 atm, so all the versatile Units can pretty much pack their bags and leave compared with the heavy-massfriendly Units that are in the game right now.
On April 07 2010 04:37 Daerthalus wrote: I still think the following: Immortal to 20+20 damage Marauder to 8+12 damage and 100 HP Roaches to 115 HP.
All 3 units mathematically remain balance vs eachother.
All 3 units are now slightly weaker vs other units, but still beat what they are supposed to beat.
Dunno if the 8+12 nerf is really required (doesn't change anything among those 3 units, so it is an additional nerf to the Marauder), but apart from that I think this is a reasonable approach. Though this obviously needs to be tested for balance when other units are around.
On April 06 2010 20:34 HDstarcraft wrote: 1st solution) Marauders need a reduction in HP. They have far too much HP for an infantry unit.
2cnd solution) Move the Marauder to the factory, thus making it un-stimmable.
1 does not fix the problem with marauders early game and hurts the terran army late game that is really balance at moment
2 stim is needed on marauders can't have half your inf group stim moveing fast and the other half that is made to be the meat shield lag behind. Stim for movment would be useless.
Also tossing them on fac would open use to lots rush we could not stop with just marines. : /
On April 06 2010 20:28 Plexa wrote: Terran have equal opportunities as far as rushes go then. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, Banshee rush (really fucking strong if you miss it), various drop tactics and whatnot.
The rationale behind putting in an additional tech building as a requirement is that is partly negates the strength of Marauders early on by making them less accessible. This gives Protoss more time to work up a counter (be it voids, chargelots, cannons (lol), or immortals). I dont think there is anything inherently wrong with armies consisting of Marauder/Medivac/Ghost other than it feels slightly unnatural from SC1. And I have no problem with Terrans doing this in every game either since mnm is what we see all the time in TvZ in Sc1 (albeit with some lategame twists).
While Mech is weaker than Marauder, it is somewhat viable similar to how mech is somewhat viable against Zerg. Thus, given the right map, I can see situations where Terrans would opt for Mech instead.
how do u plan to bunker rush a protoss? scvs has less hp zealots come out quicker because of chrono boost. there is no way ur gonna bunker rush a protoss in sc2. so proxi rax and bunker rush is the same thing so what do u have really? banshee rush. we got 5 times more rushes on the toss side and if u add that academy on top of the icing terran will be the DEFENDER just like in sc1, now i sure as hell dont want that. i want both races to have rushing opportunities to make the game more exciting.
Well as it stands at the moment, at least from what I can see, is that Protoss is the defender while Terran is the aggressor. One race is always going to have to play that role imo.
On April 06 2010 20:33 Qikz wrote: Didn't early days, Marauders required a building called the Mercenary something? Or was that for the reapers?
That was the reaper, I'm suggesting we bring it back for the Marauder.
think terran as the defender is the right idea in early game with reaper and hellion harsment. But need to make sure we can get those maruders in time for the defence and stuff.
Outside of hard Marauder rushes, I'm starting to think there isn't a problem at all here. There's enough stuff for Protoss to fight semi-evenly against Terran thanks to feedback and whatnot.
On April 06 2010 21:10 suejak wrote: So what's the problem again?
Problem is early game. Marauders are slowing and kiteing the early game counter to them around zergling and zealots. All the other units that can be made early game the marauder is made to counter like it should.
Mid and late game are fine and really close to balance in alot of areas
- Spawning Pool - Evolution Chamber - Roach Warren - Lair - Hydralisk Den - Baneling Nest - Infestation Pit - Spire - Hive - Ultralisk Cavern - Greater Spire
Now, you might say that, Protoss doesn't need to get Stargate tech AND templar tech AND robotics tech. Same goes for Terran, really: They don't _need_ an armory if they don't plan on getting Thors. They don't need a Fusion Core if they're not going for HSM or BCs. Zerg may not need to get a Baneling Nest, etc.
On April 06 2010 20:09 MorroW wrote: terran already has most upgrades and tech buildings needed to play in the game, ur not thinking far enough ;
Again, not true. Attack and armor upgrades are the same for everyone, so what other upgrades do Terrans need? Stimpack, Combat Shield... am I missing something? Sure, you might want to get Infernal Pre-Igniter, Nitro Packs or Cloak for improved harassment, but they're not necessary upgrades any more than, say, Tunneling Claws for Roaches.
Terran need a armory no matter what need it for bio upgrades and if you go mech need it for mech upgrades / thor just saying
On April 06 2010 22:03 Paladia wrote: Doubt it will happen now but for diversity they should revamp the Marauder, Stalker and Roach entirely, they are way too similar.
Zerg has 2~3 melee units Ling (tier 1) Ultralisk (tier 3) ~Baneling
Protoss has 2~3 Zealot (tier 1) Dark Templar (tier 3) ~Archon (tier 3.5)
Terran has no melee unit, in fact, all Terran units have superb range, so I would suggest the Marauder (tier 1.5) was instead turned into a melee unit (with appropriate balancing). This would add greater diversity to the game and would allow for a rebalance.
However, it is very doubtful this will happen but something to consider for the expansion perhaps. It just feels sad that after being so long in development, units are so similar. The only melee unit Terran had in SC1 was even removed.
lol melee unit sry terran don't do melee that would sooooo not fit lol
On April 06 2010 23:53 Tdelamay wrote: A small idea, what if the special effect of the marauder was to reduce armor instead of slowing down? IT would reduce armor down to a maximum of 0. That would turn marauder into a good support unit with marines. Each marine shot would deal more damage to high armor units (roaches).
Be a cool idea for sure but i really do want to go thro balancing a new ability i think that one would be even more op then slow to lol.
On April 06 2010 21:10 suejak wrote: So what's the problem again?
Problem is early game. Marauders are slowing and kiteing the early game counter to them around zergling and zealots. All the other units that can be made early game the marauder is made to counter like it should.
Mid and late game are fine and really close to balance in alot of areas
Sorta, I've been playing a bunch of random lately and when I random Terran If I don't try out some wild build I just make 3 rax with lab and rally to the enemy base and do stupidly well.
I think the real issue is its a hard counter unit with a micro ability that removes the counters from it. It has both systems, the hard counter and the micro counter. No other unit really does that.
It would be great if more units had a micro able ability that made them counter things instead of just + damage to whatever. The big problem is you cant have both, and to be honest the micro on marauders is not very apm heavy anyway, you click a few times and you've snared every unit in the front line, blocking everything behind it, then you snare the ones that move around, and they block the ones that are no longer snared now.
On April 07 2010 00:18 slimshady wrote: Actually, I like this idea: the zealot's charge being immune to the marauder's slow effect.
It still wouldn't solve the early game issue. Charge is a long upgrade to get...
I mean, if they get lots of marauders early, you'll just have to dodge and weave with your zealot worker harass or focus on defense until you get charge. Sounds like standard strategy-game fare to me...
making them just straight immune to slow is the way to go. Melee units are trained for melee they don't slow down when attacking rawr lol
On April 07 2010 04:51 RPGabe wrote: Would reducing Marauder range to 4 (instead of 6) solve some of these issues?
This would make it much more difficult for them to kite Roaches.
They'd have to run forward to fight immortals and colossus, which would endanger them significantly.
They would become less effective against Hydras, Tanks and Thors.
They would tank better for Marines (by naturally moving in front of them)
They could still kite Zealots, but Stalkers could now kite them potentially.
Focus fire would be tough for large groups because they wouldn't all be able to easily reach the same target.
Remember what changing goons from 4 range to 6 did? Let's do it in reverse.
I totally like that Idea. Especially Stalkers could really need a bit of an edge against Marauders and if you had to micro them correctly, that would also mean that skill matters more than just massing Units.
It would also fit the Marauders from what they look like and how much life they have to get more into the midst of a fight rather than having a ridiculously high range.
It would also be easier to not just be eaten alive by stimmed marauders pinning your Units down and an EMP demolishing the Shields of everything.
Really - one of the best ideas about the Marauders I've read so far!
On April 07 2010 02:34 Daerthalus wrote: Without going full circle again, I think that Terran players are simply spoiled. You get a unit you can mass all game long, that barely requires any micro vs protoss ground units, and that can be healed and stimmed. I don't blame you, If zerg or protoss had a unit like that, we'd build nothing else either. The end result is that you narrow your strategic vision to why build A,B or C when D is always better. Maybe A,B, and C are all balanced units and combined with E and F you'd have a very good army, BUT nooo...D (aka Marauders) are limiting your vision you never get to thinking about E and F cuz the thought process never gets past USE D.
You want a Bio tanking unit, that also harasses, kites, slows and blows up buildings. Make a choice. Get a slowing unit for support, or a tanking unit to tank and beat on armor.
100 HP is still more than 2x a Marine, 8+12 Damage is the same dps vs armored as before, and u still have slow to kite banelings, zealots and other units around. 125 HP, 10+10, but no slow...u end up with a Bigger Badder Marine that hit armored unit hard but that loses to cheap masses of units.
I for one am not against Terran receiving other buffs or undoing some marine/reactor nerfs should a Marauder nerf take place, but we shouldn't assume that is it absolutely required.
2 marines dps is greater on armor and light then 1 maruder stimmed or unstimmed
On April 07 2010 04:50 Plexa wrote: Outside of hard Marauder rushes, I'm starting to think there isn't a problem at all here. There's enough stuff for Protoss to fight semi-evenly against Terran thanks to feedback and whatnot.
100% agree thats why think best way is just to remove the slow on the zealots and zerglings really don't want to fuck with the late mid game when its so close to good.
On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote: Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not.
On April 06 2010 20:09 MorroW wrote: why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine?
ur killing every single rush possibility of the terran by doing this, marine bunker rush? yea right like thats gonna happen when bunks r 30 and rines r 25
I feel this is an interesting point there should be more discussion about- after all, you'll never be able to agree on fixes for the Marauder if you can't first agree on what's the problem with the Marauder (if any).
Do Terrans have the capacity to be the aggressors most of the time in TvP? Are Protoss just as capable of putting the pressure on Terrans, or maybe even more so? Let's try to figure this out constructively. Early pressure tactics mentioned so far include:
Just as important as the number of ways you can put early pressure on your opponent is, how effective are these strats? If we can get a good grasp on how strong P early pressure is compared to T early pressure, we can get past the first hurdle, namely: agree on what the problem is.
Excellent post. I'll try redirect the thread in this direction.
great pos except its not true -drops? ive never seen any terran ever going fast drop against toss, why would u do it? how can this be effective. scratch this off the list because fast drop by terran is just as likely and just as effective as a fast drop by toss (which ive seen alot more of) bunker rush? same here, ive never seen a bunker rush. a bunker takes 30 seconds to make and scvs got 45 hp. even if bunker rush was possible it would include in the proxi rax so it wouldnt qualify as 2
On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote: Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not.
On April 06 2010 20:09 MorroW wrote: why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine?
ur killing every single rush possibility of the terran by doing this, marine bunker rush? yea right like thats gonna happen when bunks r 30 and rines r 25
I feel this is an interesting point there should be more discussion about- after all, you'll never be able to agree on fixes for the Marauder if you can't first agree on what's the problem with the Marauder (if any).
Do Terrans have the capacity to be the aggressors most of the time in TvP? Are Protoss just as capable of putting the pressure on Terrans, or maybe even more so? Let's try to figure this out constructively. Early pressure tactics mentioned so far include:
Just as important as the number of ways you can put early pressure on your opponent is, how effective are these strats? If we can get a good grasp on how strong P early pressure is compared to T early pressure, we can get past the first hurdle, namely: agree on what the problem is.
Excellent post. I'll try redirect the thread in this direction.
Once again, as a Z player, i will give my insigth on the ZvT matchup. Before anyone ask, I am a ~1150 platinum player. Not a great player, but not a bad one either.
In the beginning of the beta, every one thougth that Marine > Hydra > Marauders > Roaches > Marines.This led to great mixed armies as each player tried to have the perfect mix of hydra/roaches and marines.
However, nowadays, more and more people realizes that Marauders = Hydras. SO there is basically no need for marines anymore until mutas ( wich cant be rushed or the marauder push will just rape the Z , plus mutas does very little damage to marauders so they will deal a LOT of damage before deing)
I have nothing against Marauder being core of the T army. But my current concern is that the marauder makes the marines useless. This is somewhat true in ZvT, and seems to be even more of a concern in ZvP ( but i will let TvPs expert confirm this.).
tl:dr :
Marauder strength makes the marine useless.
totally agree. this is the problem i have with marauders, ever since patch 6 they took the thunder away from the marines totally
On April 07 2010 00:18 slimshady wrote: Actually, I like this idea: the zealot's charge being immune to the marauder's slow effect. Zealots won't be so useless vs marauders.
the problem is whenever marauders get charged they can just back for 2-3 seconds and zealot wont get an attack off and they r back to square 1. zealots themselves cant touch the marauders in a battle like this without flank or high numbers that causes ai issues to the marauders, the charge doesnt do squat even if it wasnt slowed
A couple things you mention here bring up a relevant note:
I often employ a quick drop/stim strategy on Desert Oasis (though I dislike the map in general), and I find it to be quite effective. I agree that on most maps, this type of thing isn't really that effective. At the very least, on Oasis it keeps the toss occupied while I expand, and the rush distance is so long that even if you lose most of your force you'll have macroed enough by the time the toss army gets to you.
I ended up in such a situation, against Plexa of all people, in a ladder match yesterday, and early zealot charge was actually the deciding factor in him holding off my drop. If he had gone Immortal heavy, the game probably would have been over. Zealots just take so little damage from Marauders, and are very effective as long as you have units that can take shots at the Marauders while they micro away.
Overall on this issue, I think the only problem really is the early game. When it gets to late game, PvT is largely balanced (though small micro mistakes on either side can be game-ending). The issue for Terran is that if you nerf Marauders (even by just requiring another building for them), something has to be done to help out Terran early on. Marines and SCVs have already taken huge hits, and it's difficult enough to micro off early pressure with them now.
On April 06 2010 21:10 suejak wrote: So what's the problem again?
Problem is early game. Marauders are slowing and kiteing the early game counter to them around zergling and zealots. All the other units that can be made early game the marauder is made to counter like it should.
Mid and late game are fine and really close to balance in alot of areas
Sorta, I've been playing a bunch of random lately and when I random Terran If I don't try out some wild build I just make 3 rax with lab and rally to the enemy base and do stupidly well.
I think the real issue is its a hard counter unit with a micro ability that removes the counters from it. It has both systems, the hard counter and the micro counter. No other unit really does that.
It would be great if more units had a micro able ability that made them counter things instead of just + damage to whatever. The big problem is you cant have both, and to be honest the micro on marauders is not very apm heavy anyway, you click a few times and you've snared every unit in the front line, blocking everything behind it, then you snare the ones that move around, and they block the ones that are no longer snared now.
yep thats the problem melee units immune to slow go go they train for in close fighting they never slow down RAWR
2 marines dps is greater on armor and light then 1 maruder stimmed or unstimmed and alot better vs light.
First of all you can't really say that with certainty. Marine DPS is heavily affected by the ARMOR value of their target. 3 units with 20DPS compared to 10 units with 6. Sure vs 0 armor they are equal but vs 2 armor your 3@20 units deal 54 DPS and your 10@6 deal 40 DPS.
Peoples issues with Marine's are not their DPS vs armored or light vs Marauders. The issue is the Marauders can kite many units while still dealing good damage. Fast attack speed does much less for your dps when you're moving compared to slow attack speed.
Example: Shoots 1/s does 10 damage vs shoots 1/2s deals 20 damage. Same DPS but if u move for 1s every 2 seconds. Your 1/s units deal 10/3s and ur 2s unit deals 20/3s. See the difference. The extra dps the marine have would be lost when you micro them away from incoming melee units. And most people would rather face 5 zealots with 4 Marauders than with 10 Marines, since you lose ZERO Marauders to Zealots, but you'd lose some marines.
Good to see this discussion is back on track. I think the ideas of range reduction and/or having the slow effect as an upgrade are probably the best options. The upgradeable slow is actually an even better option I believe, because it can be made to require a factory to upgrade. This will push Marauders to tier 2, and will give the other races the time-frame needed to produce a counter if they scout the Marauders.
I also have an alternate option involving re-working the armor types and have started a discussion here. Please feel free to add some suggestions.
2 marines dps is greater on armor and light then 1 maruder stimmed or unstimmed and alot better vs light.
First of all you can't really say that with certainty. Marine DPS is heavily affected by the ARMOR value of their target. 3 units with 20DPS compared to 10 units with 6. Sure vs 0 armor they are equal but vs 2 armor your 3@20 units deal 54 DPS and your 10@6 deal 40 DPS.
Peoples issues with Marine's are not their DPS vs armored or light vs Marauders. The issue is the Marauders can kite many units while still dealing good damage. Fast attack speed does much less for your dps when you're moving compared to slow attack speed.
Example: Shoots 1/s does 10 damage vs shoots 1/2s deals 20 damage. Same DPS but if u move for 1s every 2 seconds. Your 1/s units deal 10/3s and ur 2s unit deals 20/3s. See the difference. The extra dps the marine have would be lost when you micro them away from incoming melee units. And most people would rather face 5 zealots with 4 Marauders than with 10 Marines, since you lose ZERO Marauders to Zealots, but you'd lose some marines.
thats the problem Marauders VS melee units they kite them to death with no dmg taken even tho the melee units are made to be the counter of them thats why i have said x10000 times in this threat to make zealots/zerglings immune to slow or just all melee units. omg the marauders now have a unit that counters them early game.
Need to go back to the mix of MM to deal with the early melee units marauders as the meat shiled with mearins to do the dmg.
Also you did not read the spread sheet marauders don't have a dps of 20 nore marines of 6. Also yes armor does come into play but as they get upgrades you get upgrades. Also its only the roachs that effects it with its 2 armor early game. So marine marauder is floped around there. As it should be they are made to be the dmg vs armored /shrug
I just played a mid plat toss, I randomed terran I just made 4 rax and spammed the D key. He had no chance, he only made zealots and immortals and still lost. He rushed charge, and it did not make a bit of difference.
Maybe the snare should only snare armored units? If it becomes an upgrade, it still creates a kite fest of melee units. And honestly, once you have enough marauders you can one shot immortals and other counters anyway.
The hard counter system just seems like it makes things more difficult to balance, not less.
Why can't each races tank unit just have lots of hp/armor and have low damage. instead of all doing huge damage to each other.
^Because this is starcraft, and when you introduce 'tank' units, like in Wc3, the game play slows down.
I think both the Marauder and the Roach need to have their counters softened. By doing this:
-The Roach becomes more viable as a harassment unit, giving you more purpose to utilize its burrow-movement abilities, as opposed to it just being an A-Move-GG unit. Now this unit can be used as a means of worker harassment and ambushing, as opposed to it being your necessary I.W.I.N unit; this will now give hydralisks, zerglings, banelings, and mutalisks a more definitive role in the Zerg arsenal.
-The Marauder will exist for the purpose of its slow effect alone, as opposed to it existing currently for the sole purpose of it countering Roaches and Stalkers. You remove the need to have it for its terrible, terrible damage, and instead have it FOR the slow effect. With its role no longer being to PEW PEW everything, its now no longer a necessity to have, and instead fits in as a support-dps unit, providing decent damage, and a helpful slow effect. The slow effect should also be an auto-cast spell, and instead of costing mana, will have 3-5 second cooldown.
We need to change the roles of both these units, and then we will change the boring dynamics of Terran and Zerg game play.
Go play some games with your friends, and make a rule; "No marauders or roaches"; the game is instantly more fun and dynamic to play.
On April 07 2010 05:41 FREEloss_ca wrote: ^Because this is starcraft, and when you introduce 'tank' units, like in Wc3, the game play slows down.
I think both the Marauder and the Roach need to have their counters softened. By doing this:
-The Roach becomes more viable as a harassment unit, giving you more purpose to utilize its burrow-movement abilities, as opposed to it just being an A-Move-GG unit. Now this unit can be used as a means of worker harassment and ambushing, as opposed to it being your necessary I.W.I.N unit; this will now give hydralisks, zerglings, banelings, and mutalisks a more definitive role in the Zerg arsenal.
-The Marauder will exist for the purpose of its slow effect alone, as opposed to it existing currently for the sole purpose of it countering Roaches and Stalkers. You remove the need to have it for its terrible, terrible damage, and instead have it FOR the slow effect. With its role no longer being to PEW PEW everything, its now no longer a necessity to have, and instead fits in as a support-dps unit, providing decent damage, and a helpful slow effect.
We need to change the roles of both these units, and then we will change the boring dynamics of Terran and Zerg game play.
I Don't find terran play boring at all have lots of things you can do for many Different thing that come at you ...
Zerg i can see as boreing but terran not even close
I just wish they could come out and say what their plan is on the whole thing. If things stay the way they are things will be pretty boring. It will be possible to not mass a-move those units, but it won't be nearly as viable.
On April 07 2010 05:49 Killmour wrote: I just wish they could come out and say what their plan is on the whole thing. If things stay the way they are things will be pretty boring. It will be possible to not mass a-move those units, but it won't be nearly as viable.
As the Roach and Marauder situation stands now, it CANNOT go live IMO. It needs to be fixed. It's going to be bad for the game, especially at high level competitive play.
On April 07 2010 05:48 suejak wrote: Nahh, just make charge zealots and speedlings immune to slow. Problem solved.
Does not fix the early game for toss does for zerg makes it fine. But ya toss still will ahve the same problem they allready go right for speed somtimes they can't get it intime before they get overrun by marauders. This is why i say just make them plain immune to slow all melee units or just the 2 tier 1 units.
You could say make the charge upgrade faster or somthing but hard to make it super fast were it is and also it really does make them much stronge vs rines to so ya don't need that till mid/late game. Don't want to make the zealots to stronge
On April 07 2010 05:49 Killmour wrote: I just wish they could come out and say what their plan is on the whole thing. If things stay the way they are things will be pretty boring. It will be possible to not mass a-move those units, but it won't be nearly as viable.
As the Roach and Marauder situation stands now, it CANNOT go live IMO. It needs to be fixed. It's going to be bad for the game, especially at high level competitive play.
high lvl players are doing fine ... only thing that is messing with them seems to be the early marauder cheese.
Also ZvZ is boring tho kill ultra bring back lurker /shrug lol joking short of : P
On April 07 2010 02:34 Daerthalus wrote: Without going full circle again, I think that Terran players are simply spoiled. You get a unit you can mass all game long, that barely requires any micro vs protoss ground units, and that can be healed and stimmed. I don't blame you, If zerg or protoss had a unit like that, we'd build nothing else either. The end result is that you narrow your strategic vision to why build A,B or C when D is always better. Maybe A,B, and C are all balanced units and combined with E and F you'd have a very good army, BUT nooo...D (aka Marauders) are limiting your vision you never get to thinking about E and F cuz the thought process never gets past USE D.
You want a Bio tanking unit, that also harasses, kites, slows and blows up buildings. Make a choice. Get a slowing unit for support, or a tanking unit to tank and beat on armor.
100 HP is still more than 2x a Marine, 8+12 Damage is the same dps vs armored as before, and u still have slow to kite banelings, zealots and other units around. 125 HP, 10+10, but no slow...u end up with a Bigger Badder Marine that hit armored unit hard but that loses to cheap masses of units.
I for one am not against Terran receiving other buffs or undoing some marine/reactor nerfs should a Marauder nerf take place, but we shouldn't assume that is it absolutely required.
2 marines dps is greater on armor and light then 1 maruder stimmed or unstimmed
That's incorrect. According to that chart a marauder stimmed deals 29.99 dps to armored targets whereas 2 rines deal 21 dps.
The fact that a rine will die after 35-45 damage will also pre-emptively cut down on their dps because a marauder's dps output remains at maximum for quite a bit longer.
So: Stimmed dps:
10 - Marauder v Light 20 - Rines vs anything 30 - Marauder v armored.
This is discounting armor, of course, which is fairly important. Rines at equal mineral cost take twice the hit from armor that marauders do because of their larger numbers.
On April 07 2010 05:48 suejak wrote: Nahh, just make charge zealots and speedlings immune to slow. Problem solved.
Does not fix the early game for toss does for zerg makes it fine. But ya toss still will ahve the same problem they allready go right for speed somtimes they can't get it intime before they get overrun by marauders. This is why i say just make them plain immune to slow all melee units or just the 2 tier 1 units.
You could say make the charge upgrade faster or somthing but hard to make it super fast were it is and also it really does make them much stronge vs rines to so ya don't need that till mid/late game. Don't want to make the zealots to stronge
Is there really no way for protoss to just play defensive against marauders until charge comes out? Maybe a little cannon/sentry action?
On April 06 2010 23:53 Tdelamay wrote: A small idea, what if the special effect of the marauder was to reduce armor instead of slowing down? IT would reduce armor down to a maximum of 0. That would turn marauder into a good support unit with marines. Each marine shot would deal more damage to high armor units (roaches).
i really like this idea, this would also make them still counter roaches, but as a support unit mixed with marines
and ppl should really stop to calculate dps, its pretty silly.
On April 07 2010 05:48 suejak wrote: Nahh, just make charge zealots and speedlings immune to slow. Problem solved.
Does not fix the early game for toss does for zerg makes it fine. But ya toss still will ahve the same problem they allready go right for speed somtimes they can't get it intime before they get overrun by marauders. This is why i say just make them plain immune to slow all melee units or just the 2 tier 1 units.
You could say make the charge upgrade faster or somthing but hard to make it super fast were it is and also it really does make them much stronge vs rines to so ya don't need that till mid/late game. Don't want to make the zealots to stronge
Is there really no way for protoss to just play defensive against marauders until charge comes out? Maybe a little cannon/sentry action?
On April 07 2010 05:48 suejak wrote: Nahh, just make charge zealots and speedlings immune to slow. Problem solved.
Does not fix the early game for toss does for zerg makes it fine. But ya toss still will ahve the same problem they allready go right for speed somtimes they can't get it intime before they get overrun by marauders. This is why i say just make them plain immune to slow all melee units or just the 2 tier 1 units.
You could say make the charge upgrade faster or somthing but hard to make it super fast were it is and also it really does make them much stronge vs rines to so ya don't need that till mid/late game. Don't want to make the zealots to stronge
Is there really no way for protoss to just play defensive against marauders until charge comes out? Maybe a little cannon/sentry action?
na thats why it s a gay cheese lol
It is a, to borrow your eloquent phraseology, "gay cheese" only without charge making them immune. Then it's just a particular early tactic that can be countered pretty well with zealots and templars later.
On April 07 2010 05:49 Killmour wrote: I just wish they could come out and say what their plan is on the whole thing. If things stay the way they are things will be pretty boring. It will be possible to not mass a-move those units, but it won't be nearly as viable.
As the Roach and Marauder situation stands now, it CANNOT go live IMO. It needs to be fixed. It's going to be bad for the game, especially at high level competitive play.
high lvl players are doing fine ... only thing that is messing with them seems to be the early marauder cheese.
Also ZvZ is boring tho kill ultra bring back lurker /shrug lol joking short of : P
It's not fine in terms of viability of different unit mixes and tech tree choices. Marauders and Roaches are the core units every game of every matchup. It's boring and uncreative. The game has no room to grow when all you need are Roaches or Marauders.
That's incorrect. According to that chart a marauder stimmed deals 29.99 dps to armored targets whereas 2 rines deal 21 dps.
The fact that a rine will die after 35-45 damage will also pre-emptively cut down on their dps because a marauder's dps output remains at maximum for quite a bit longer.
So: Stimmed dps:
10 - Marauder v Light 20 - Rines vs anything 30 - Marauder v armored.
This is discounting armor, of course, which is fairly important. Rines at equal mineral cost take twice the hit from armor that marauders do because of their larger numbers.
Your reading it wrong aslo you are looking at fully upgraded 3 of 3 but at fully upgrade
1 rine does 15.69 vs light x 2 does 31.38 Not to mention cheaper and shorter build time. 1 marauder does 13.00 vs light then 25.99 vs a armored target
and yes this is not counting armor reduction but only the starting armor comes into effect cause you get upgrades like they do.
Also you did not read the spread sheet marauders don't have a dps of 20 nore marines of 6. Also yes armor does come into play but as they get upgrades you get upgrades. Also its only the roachs that effects it with its 2 armor early game. So marine marauder is floped around there. As it should be they are made to be the dmg vs armored /shrug
Had I intended in my Analysis example to use Marauders and Marines I would have called them Marauders and Marines not 20 DPS unit and 6 DPS unit. I was merely indicating the effect of armor on mass low damage units OR fast attacking low damage vs slower harder hitting attacks.
Best way to show it was to assume the units had IDENTICAL DPS. Obviously this is not the case with Marines and Marauders.
I also was indicating why even with lower DPS Marauder are superior to Marines vs Melee units.
On April 07 2010 05:49 Killmour wrote: I just wish they could come out and say what their plan is on the whole thing. If things stay the way they are things will be pretty boring. It will be possible to not mass a-move those units, but it won't be nearly as viable.
As the Roach and Marauder situation stands now, it CANNOT go live IMO. It needs to be fixed. It's going to be bad for the game, especially at high level competitive play.
high lvl players are doing fine ... only thing that is messing with them seems to be the early marauder cheese.
Also ZvZ is boring tho kill ultra bring back lurker /shrug lol joking short of : P
It's not fine in terms of viability of different unit mixes and tech tree choices. Marauders and Roaches are the core units every game of every matchup. It's boring and uncreative. The game has no room to grow when all you need are Roaches or Marauders.
most games i have watch i and watch like 10 a day its freaking redick.
But ya see lots zerglings and hydras in zerg play as well
terran most times they tend to go hellions/mech or bio a pure mix between MMM or if its toss ya the marauder cheese that we are talking about and saying needs a fix early game late is fine. See viks ghost marines marauders medvacs banshess harsments /shrug
Adding exceptions like "not on melee units" really is bad for the game as a whole. I'd much prefer alternative solutions. We already have the "not on massive" anyways, two additional rules are a bit much. It doesn't even make sense, why would it slow a roach but not a zergling? The only change I would support here would be "only slow armored units" - but Marauders kill armored units anyways, no need for slow on those.
On April 07 2010 06:28 spinesheath wrote: Adding exceptions like "not on melee units" really is bad for the game as a whole. I'd much prefer alternative solutions. We already have the "not on massive" anyways, two additional rules are a bit much. It doesn't even make sense, why would it slow a roach but not a zergling? The only change I would support here would be "only slow armored units" - but Marauders kill armored units anyways, no need for slow on those.
Slow on only armored would still be usefull could still kite roachs and could still pick off running units really well.
But i still like just the melee immune. Its the easyest it does not effect much of the late game. Fixes the early game. Forces terran to go MM mix agian. Pushes them more towards fav on mech as well.
Also there are lots of exceptions in sc2 i mean it helps balance there is nothing wrong with if it fixes stuff.
Also lore and shit does not have a place in a RTS balance why doesn't the thor just step on zerglings ? why doesn't the big missle blow the guy arpart with no armor instead of doing less dmg to him. lots things are like wtf if you think of it. Also if you want they train in the melee arts they have learned how to not be slowed in there attacks ! lol /shrug
I also was indicating why even with lower DPS Marauder are superior to Marines vs Melee units.
yep they are vs melee units i 100000 % agree thats why i have been pushing the immune to slow on melee units.
Also a good Idea, especially if you look at the "Help" ingame, where it says that the Zealot is supposed to be the counter to Marauders. xD
It would also more or less only change the early game and if you look at zerglings which come in big masses anyways, the most changes would be that you can now play Zealots against Marauders and not always go for Immortals or a ridiculous number of sentrys to make the Zealots able to handle the Marauders.
I also was indicating why even with lower DPS Marauder are superior to Marines vs Melee units.
yep they are vs melee units i 100000 % agree thats why i have been pushing the immune to slow on melee units.
Also a good Idea, especially if you look at the "Help" ingame, where it says that the Zealot is supposed to be the counter to Marauders. xD
It would also more or less only change the early game and if you look at zerglings which come in big masses anyways, the most changes would be that you can now play Zealots against Marauders and not always go for Immortals or a ridiculous number of sentrys to make the Zealots able to handle the Marauders.
That's incorrect. According to that chart a marauder stimmed deals 29.99 dps to armored targets whereas 2 rines deal 21 dps.
The fact that a rine will die after 35-45 damage will also pre-emptively cut down on their dps because a marauder's dps output remains at maximum for quite a bit longer.
So: Stimmed dps:
10 - Marauder v Light 20 - Rines vs anything 30 - Marauder v armored.
This is discounting armor, of course, which is fairly important. Rines at equal mineral cost take twice the hit from armor that marauders do because of their larger numbers.
Your reading it wrong aslo you are looking at fully upgraded 3 of 3 but at fully upgrade
1 rine does 15.69 vs light x 2 does 31.38 Not to mention cheaper and shorter build time. 1 marauder does 13.00 vs light then 25.99 vs a armored target
and yes this is not counting armor reduction but only the starting armor comes into effect cause you get upgrades like they do.
with stim and fully upgraded
You're right regarding the bonus dps column; its the total dps of the base + the bonus, not just the bonus portion.
That said, using 3/3 ups examine the difference between the units doesn't make sense seeing as the majority of tech paths and preferences for rax units are going to be decided by the effectiveness of the units at 0/0 or with a single upg. At 0/0 the rine and marauder deal the same damage to armored units, but the marauder doesn't lose half its dps when it takes 35-45 damage and takes far less aoe damage which is a huge consideration.
You're right regarding the bonus dps column; its the total dps of the base + the bonus, not just the bonus portion.
That said, using 3/3 ups examine the difference between the units doesn't make sense seeing as the majority of tech paths and preferences for rax units are going to be decided by the effectiveness of the units at 0/0 or with a single upg. At 0/0 the rine and marauder deal the same damage to armored units, but the marauder doesn't lose half its dps when it takes 35-45 damage and takes far less aoe damage which is a huge consideration.
the coloum i was look at was 3/3 with stim up yes none stim no upgrades is
1 rine 6.97 and 2 rines is 13.94
1 marauder is 6.67 light armored is 13.33
early game saves you gas for other things saves a few min less build time and rapes light. making marauders slow not work on zealots and zerglings will make people want to get the cheaper quicker rines when still getting a few marauders for the armor and as the meat shield. will want a more balanced army. early and mid game.
Also yes when you get into late game and aoe spells like HSM and fungle growth and storm pop up then you will want to move away from more rines and get more mech and air units or bigger ratio of marauders to marines. Those spells are made to counter the masses of tier 1 or low hp units its what they do. Just like any other race does the same thing to not go a 90 % hydra army with a HSM or a storm comes and boom lol even if they do more dmg then the roachs. So things stay the same cause that is reaction people have to those spells right now /shrug
once you remove slow from the melee units balanced mm will come back into play.
Having slow not effect melee units is a very uncreative solution. It's like saying "storm is too overpowered against zerglings so we'll make it not affect them". Yes I agree lore has no point in balancing RTS but this one just sticks out as a sore thumb. So it doesn't affect massive units or small melee units but everything in between. That just sounds like a logical inconsistency to me.
I still think the perfect solution is a 100/100 upgrade at the tech lab, then trim 25 gas off the tank cost to compensate. Problem solved. Marauder still equally as effective late game. Protoss has a chance for equal footing early game (in regards to who can fast expand, who is the aggressor).
On April 07 2010 07:41 kidcrash wrote: Having slow not effect melee units is a very uncreative solution. It's like saying "storm is too overpowered against zerglings so we'll make it not affect them". Yes I agree lore has no point in balancing RTS but this one just sticks out as a sore thumb. So it doesn't affect massive units or small melee units but everything in between. That just sounds like a logical inconsistency to me.
I still think the perfect solution is a 100/100 upgrade at the tech lab, then trim 25 gas off the tank cost to compensate. Problem solved. Marauder still equally as effective late game. Protoss has a chance for equal footing early game (in regards to who can fast expand, who is the aggressor).
but marauders still kite the hell out of zealots problem still there ....
And they did think storm was to OP vs zerg and terran so they nerfed its size not very creative ethier. Also like you said they didn't want slow to effect these end tier units so they made massive to mkae them immune to slow not very creative there ethier if you go by what you seem to think is uncreative.
If it fixes the problem without any big effects to the mid/late game its all good.
They made slow not effect massive units from a lore perspective, I 100% guarantee it. There was no need to be creative because these was nothing to be solved. Yes marauders will still kite the hell out of zealots but.. 1. The rush will come later. Every second counts and if you have to wait a full minute for the upgrade to complete, this gives ample time to prepare. 2. 100/100 for an upgrade is 4 marauders worth of gas. Meaning when the rush does come it will have less marauders. 3. Late game is completely unaffected.
Also yes when you get into late game and aoe spells like HSM and fungle growth and storm pop up then you will want to move away from more rines and get more mech and air units or bigger ratio of marauders to marines.
It isn't just an issue when you get aoe, its an issue always.
Vs armored, marauders would be superior even without the slow because not only are they doing equal dps, but it takes a full 105 damage before marauders start losing dps. Additionally, they lose far less damage to armor. Roaches are the best example; You wouldn't want to make marauders vs roaches because you're afraid of aoe; you'd want to make them because a far larger percentage of their damage gets past roach armor and they take far more hits to before going down.
Factoring in medivacs and armor, the durability effect is amplified further.
On April 07 2010 08:06 kidcrash wrote: They made slow not effect massive units from a lore perspective, I 100% guarantee it. There was no need to be creative because these was nothing to be solved. Yes marauders will still kite the hell out of zealots but.. 1. The rush will come later. Every second counts and if you have to wait a full minute for the upgrade to complete, this gives ample time to prepare. 2. 100/100 for an upgrade is 4 marauders worth of gas. Meaning when the rush does come it will have less marauders. 3. Late game is completely unaffected.
fisrt thing the terran will get will be the upgrade and due to the fact that is on the tech lab as soon as he can get marauders he can get the upgrade. Also the upgrades not going to be anything super long it will just push the rush back maybe 1 min. Before this one min time the terran can still send in marauders to force the T to build units if he build stalkers good marauders counter them if he builds zealots good in 30 sec you will counter them run away come back in 30's you delayed him on his tech.
I mean you can rush the toss base as soon as you get 2-4 marauders right now and put him on his back so much. This upgrade would need to be like 3 mins or 2.30 to alow him to get up in that tech. and a 2.30 - 3 min upgrade is just not going to happen. Also still haveing only 1 real counter to the marauder after that upgrade not very good.
Would rather see the unit that is made to counter them counter them. Also you would still not see a mix of units agian would still just be all marauders and not a mix.
Also yes when you get into late game and aoe spells like HSM and fungle growth and storm pop up then you will want to move away from more rines and get more mech and air units or bigger ratio of marauders to marines.
It isn't just an issue when you get aoe, its an issue always.
Vs armored, marauders would be superior even without the slow because not only are they doing equal dps, but it takes a full 105 damage before marauders start losing dps. Additionally, they lose far less damage to armor. Roaches are the best example; You wouldn't want to make marauders vs roaches because you're afraid of aoe; you'd want to make them because a far larger percentage of their damage gets past roach armor and they take far more hits to before going down.
Factoring in medivacs and armor, the durability effect is amplified further.
Not saying that you would ever want to get marines over marauders for killing armor units if you would that would be a bit wrong. Just people over estimate the marauders dps when it comes to armored and light units they think it will counter them both in terms of dps. when it cleary does not.
And why wouldn't you want to make marauders vs raochs they are great and i don't get the aoe thing. Also yes thats idea behind marauders they take more dmg before they die they are the meat sheild for the rines doing the dmg in the back to the hydras that are in the back of the roachs lol.
only reason people go full marauders right now is cause early game they have no counters. Zealots and zerglings are the counter but they are kited due to slow as my fix will fix lol
On April 07 2010 08:06 kidcrash wrote: They made slow not effect massive units from a lore perspective, I 100% guarantee it. There was no need to be creative because these was nothing to be solved. Yes marauders will still kite the hell out of zealots but.. 1. The rush will come later. Every second counts and if you have to wait a full minute for the upgrade to complete, this gives ample time to prepare. 2. 100/100 for an upgrade is 4 marauders worth of gas. Meaning when the rush does come it will have less marauders. 3. Late game is completely unaffected.
fisrt thing the terran will get will be the upgrade and due to the fact that is on the tech lab as soon as he can get marauders he can get the upgrade. Also the upgrades not going to be anything super long it will just push the rush back maybe 1 min. Before this one min time the terran can still send in marauders to force the T to build units if he build stalkers good marauders counter them if he builds zealots good in 30 sec you will counter them run away come back in 30's you delayed him on his tech.
I mean you can rush the toss base as soon as you get 2-4 marauders right now and put him on his back so much. This upgrade would need to be like 3 mins or 2.30 to alow him to get up in that tech. and a 2.30 - 3 min upgrade is just not going to happen. Also still haveing only 1 real counter to the marauder after that upgrade not very good.
Would rather see the unit that is made to counter them counter them. Also you would still not see a mix of units agian would still just be all marauders and not a mix.
Agreed, it would still be only marauders. That's why something else small would need to be done to make them less tank like. Something as simple as a 25 drop in HP, along with making slow down an upgrade, would suffice. But please for the love of god, give the siege tank (or marines and reactors) some love if this happens, we need to give terran another real option to go to other than marauder.
I just don't want to see melee immune to slow. Why dumb down the game and decrease chances for micro when you can just make the abuse less harsh overall. You have to consider the cost for this upgrade cutting into stim as well, that makes a huge difference when rushing. I know the 25 gas for the marauder is easy to set aside.
If you really think this wouldn't impact the rush enough, maybe making the upgrade 150/150 instead of 100/100 is needed. You'd absolutely have to lower siege tank gas at that point. I admit, melee being immune to the slow effect is the only other solution that has the best overall (early/mid/late game) balance. Just seems like adding an upgrade would add timing/depth to the game as opposed to taking things out of it.
On April 07 2010 08:06 kidcrash wrote: They made slow not effect massive units from a lore perspective, I 100% guarantee it. There was no need to be creative because these was nothing to be solved. Yes marauders will still kite the hell out of zealots but.. 1. The rush will come later. Every second counts and if you have to wait a full minute for the upgrade to complete, this gives ample time to prepare. 2. 100/100 for an upgrade is 4 marauders worth of gas. Meaning when the rush does come it will have less marauders. 3. Late game is completely unaffected.
fisrt thing the terran will get will be the upgrade and due to the fact that is on the tech lab as soon as he can get marauders he can get the upgrade. Also the upgrades not going to be anything super long it will just push the rush back maybe 1 min. Before this one min time the terran can still send in marauders to force the T to build units if he build stalkers good marauders counter them if he builds zealots good in 30 sec you will counter them run away come back in 30's you delayed him on his tech.
I mean you can rush the toss base as soon as you get 2-4 marauders right now and put him on his back so much. This upgrade would need to be like 3 mins or 2.30 to alow him to get up in that tech. and a 2.30 - 3 min upgrade is just not going to happen. Also still haveing only 1 real counter to the marauder after that upgrade not very good.
Would rather see the unit that is made to counter them counter them. Also you would still not see a mix of units agian would still just be all marauders and not a mix.
Agreed, it would still be only marauders. That's why something else small would need to be done to make them less tank like. Something as simple as a 25 drop in HP, along with making slow down an upgrade, would suffice. But please for the love of god, give the siege tank (or marines and reactors) some love if this happens, we need to give terran another real option to go to other than marauder.
I just don't want to see melee immune to slow. Why dumb down the game and decrease chances for micro when you can just make the abuse less harsh overall. You have to consider the cost for this upgrade cutting into stim as well, that makes a huge difference when rushing. I know the 25 gas for the marauder is easy to set aside.
If you really think this wouldn't impact the rush enough, maybe making the upgrade 150/150 instead of 100/100 is needed. You'd absolutely have to lower siege tank gas at that point. I admit, melee being immune to the slow effect is the only other solution that has the best overall (early/mid/late game) balance. Just seems like adding an upgrade would add timing/depth to the game as opposed to taking things out of it.
yep could add some more to game if it was a upgrade but it just doesn't fix the problem. You will never see anything else beside marauders in tvp if thats all you do is the upgrade. If you nerf the HP it hurts the end game and hurts ZvT were roachs hydra allready eats thro your MMM balls very well.
Making melee immune to slow would bring back some micro and kill the kiteing micro you would still use the slow for running away (run shoot run shoot) or catch units when they run like a juicy HT or w/e. Also you will need to micro those front units out of melee range dmg when they get low also have to micro out of surrounds. Both of these things you don't really do cause you just shoot kite them to death. Don't really think it dumbs down the game at all right now you need more apm to do these things and alot less to kite the heal out of zealots zerglings lol.
But really this is the easyest and only way you can really make the MM come back and not just going marauder without effecting so much else in the game or leaveing the problem there and not getting the MM balance back. Just really can't have this one unit killing ever gateway unit : /
Also i still really like that armor reduction thing in place of the slow would be really cool but hard to put in and prob be alot harder to balance then the slow : P.
Again, slow is not the problem. In SC1, pure marine/medic vs pure goon/lot. if you had equal resources of each, the M&M would almost always win. Again, make it much like SC1, where one storm or two shots from collosus can kill stimmed maurauders. Heck, you can keep the maurauder HP the same, just increase the HP penalty for stim for maurauders.
On April 07 2010 09:27 hacpee wrote: Again, slow is not the problem. In SC1, pure marine/medic vs pure goon/lot. if you had equal resources of each, the M&M would almost always win. Again, make it much like SC1, where one storm or two shots from collosus can kill stimmed maurauders. Heck, you can keep the maurauder HP the same, just increase the HP penalty for stim for maurauders.
if you think slow is not the problem you don't play much or watch many cast lol
I play Terran, and the two things I've observed is that the Marauder is too useful, and the Hellion is not useful enough. The Marauder is a catch-all unit, even more so than the Marine's role in SC1. Meanwhile the Hellion is good against what? 3 units in the whole game? (banelings, zerglings, and zealots, Reapers don't count since Marauders counter them anyway).
There's no doubt that the Marauder is a boring, linear unit. If Blizzard plays around with with the Marauder and the Hellion a bit, they could diversify Terran's early game options while balancing out the Marauder.
Even if the Marauder was "balanced" (as in, it has a counter), it's still not balanced because Terran are so dependent on it.
On April 07 2010 13:19 AgmLauncher wrote: I play Terran, and the two things I've observed is that the Marauder is too useful, and the Hellion is not useful enough. The Marauder is a catch-all unit, even more so than the Marine's role in SC1. Meanwhile the Hellion is good against what? 3 units in the whole game? (banelings, zerglings, and zealots, Reapers don't count since Marauders counter them anyway).
There's no doubt that the Marauder is a boring, linear unit. If Blizzard plays around with with the Marauder and the Hellion a bit, they could diversify Terran's early game options while balancing out the Marauder.
Even if the Marauder was "balanced" (as in, it has a counter), it's still not balanced because Terran are so dependent on it.
IMO Hellions are more underused than underpowered. I bet you could make a solid build opening Hellions every game vs both Protoss and Zerg. Maybe not Reactor Hellions, but single Factory and at least 1 Hellion to scout + force your opponent to defend and possibly make [more] units he might otherwise not want to make.
On April 07 2010 13:19 AgmLauncher wrote: I play Terran, and the two things I've observed is that the Marauder is too useful, and the Hellion is not useful enough. The Marauder is a catch-all unit, even more so than the Marine's role in SC1. Meanwhile the Hellion is good against what? 3 units in the whole game? (banelings, zerglings, and zealots, Reapers don't count since Marauders counter them anyway).
There's no doubt that the Marauder is a boring, linear unit. If Blizzard plays around with with the Marauder and the Hellion a bit, they could diversify Terran's early game options while balancing out the Marauder.
Even if the Marauder was "balanced" (as in, it has a counter), it's still not balanced because Terran are so dependent on it.
IMO Hellions are more underused than underpowered. I bet you could make a solid build opening Hellions every game vs both Protoss and Zerg. Maybe not Reactor Hellions, but single Factory and at least 1 Hellion to scout + force your opponent to defend and possibly make [more] units he might otherwise not want to make.
Hellions vs toss is a bit strange if he trys to prox you or rush zealots he is fucked by by workers and all zealots. After that not really that usefull in the mix of your units. But are still great for drop harsment or scouting map.
Vs zerg they are insane good hard counter to zerg and are ok vs hydras. 1 rax into fax into reac fax pump out hellions go go.
Think hellions are in a really good place /shrug try them out more they will grow on ya
I have to agree with you Xnub, but I really don't see how the slow can be balanced. Not sure how they'd work out which units were slow'able (armored units?), but it feels like that is a messy solution. I really don't think the slow is something they can balance well. It's really just an anti-micro ability for the terran's opponent, forcing him to loose anything in range while retreating, and gererally wreaking havok with his ability to rotation units to and from the front while in combat.
Honestly, the dev team has it's work cut out for it on this one. There clearly needs to be a big re-work of this unit to bring it in line and make it something terran don't want to mass without destroying the necessity to build any of them.
On April 07 2010 16:14 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote: Honestly, the dev team has it's work cut out for it on this one. There clearly needs to be a big re-work of this unit to bring it in line and make it something terran don't want to mass without destroying the necessity to build any of them.
I agree completely, but the question is: Do we see Blizzard making such a big change? I really don't think so, especially because they have already done 7 patches with all those little balance-changes that would be ruined by 1 big change like this.
I hope I am wrong on this one, but I really think blizz won't do a big change like that, although they said that they would if it was necessary, which it clearly is,
Vs zerg they are insane good hard counter to zerg and are ok vs hydras. 1 rax into fax into reac fax pump out hellions go go.
But if he makes roaches which 95% of players do (especially if they scout you), then you've just wasted a ton of minerals on a unit that has been rendered obsolete, and double obsolete when Mutas hit the field. You can easily kite Roaches with Hellions, but they do so little damage that you're just wasting your attention/APM at that point.
If I had my choice between 100 minerals for a Hellion and 100 minerals for a Marauder, the Marauder is by far the better choice. I realize Marauders cost gas, but not that much.
Vs zerg they are insane good hard counter to zerg and are ok vs hydras. 1 rax into fax into reac fax pump out hellions go go.
But if he makes roaches which 95% of players do (especially if they scout you), then you've just wasted a ton of minerals on a unit that has been rendered obsolete, and double obsolete when Mutas hit the field. You can easily kite Roaches with Hellions, but they do so little damage that you're just wasting your attention/APM at that point.
If I had my choice between 100 minerals for a Hellion and 100 minerals for a Marauder, the Marauder is by far the better choice. I realize Marauders cost gas, but not that much.
But the fun in it is that with playing Hellions, you force the Z into making SpineCrawlers or Roaches, which get raped by the Marauder.... It's just countering the counter with a counter... But that way you can also let a computer play, because it's just so unimaginative and boring...
Agreed, however the point is that if you have gone reactor and make anything more than like 3-4 hellions, you've wasted your money and hurt yourself just as much as you've "hurt" your opponent by forcing him to make roaches/spines. Hellions simply become obsolete very quickly. A unit shouldn't exist for the sole purpose of making your opponent do something and then become obsolete.
just make them cost a lot more gas and slow be an upgrade. Problem solved. This way terran would be forced to go early heavy gas and sacrifice economy in order to go all marauder.
On April 07 2010 18:01 AgmLauncher wrote: Agreed, however the point is that if you have gone reactor and make anything more than like 3-4 hellions, you've wasted your money and hurt yourself just as much as you've "hurt" your opponent by forcing him to make roaches/spines. Hellions simply become obsolete very quickly. A unit shouldn't exist for the sole purpose of making your opponent do something and then become obsolete.
Then again, you could always lift the factory and use the reactor for a starport or rax, so it's not too bad.
On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote: Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not.
On April 06 2010 20:09 MorroW wrote: why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine?
ur killing every single rush possibility of the terran by doing this, marine bunker rush? yea right like thats gonna happen when bunks r 30 and rines r 25
I feel this is an interesting point there should be more discussion about- after all, you'll never be able to agree on fixes for the Marauder if you can't first agree on what's the problem with the Marauder (if any).
Do Terrans have the capacity to be the aggressors most of the time in TvP? Are Protoss just as capable of putting the pressure on Terrans, or maybe even more so? Let's try to figure this out constructively. Early pressure tactics mentioned so far include:
Just as important as the number of ways you can put early pressure on your opponent is, how effective are these strats? If we can get a good grasp on how strong P early pressure is compared to T early pressure, we can get past the first hurdle, namely: agree on what the problem is.
Excellent post. I'll try redirect the thread in this direction.
great pos except its not true -drops? ive never seen any terran ever going fast drop against toss, why would u do it? how can this be effective. scratch this off the list because fast drop by terran is just as likely and just as effective as a fast drop by toss (which ive seen alot more of) bunker rush? same here, ive never seen a bunker rush. a bunker takes 30 seconds to make and scvs got 45 hp. even if bunker rush was possible it would include in the proxi rax so it wouldnt qualify as 2
On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote: Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not.
On April 06 2010 20:09 MorroW wrote: why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine?
ur killing every single rush possibility of the terran by doing this, marine bunker rush? yea right like thats gonna happen when bunks r 30 and rines r 25
I feel this is an interesting point there should be more discussion about- after all, you'll never be able to agree on fixes for the Marauder if you can't first agree on what's the problem with the Marauder (if any).
Do Terrans have the capacity to be the aggressors most of the time in TvP? Are Protoss just as capable of putting the pressure on Terrans, or maybe even more so? Let's try to figure this out constructively. Early pressure tactics mentioned so far include:
Just as important as the number of ways you can put early pressure on your opponent is, how effective are these strats? If we can get a good grasp on how strong P early pressure is compared to T early pressure, we can get past the first hurdle, namely: agree on what the problem is.
Excellent post. I'll try redirect the thread in this direction.
Once again, as a Z player, i will give my insigth on the ZvT matchup. Before anyone ask, I am a ~1150 platinum player. Not a great player, but not a bad one either.
In the beginning of the beta, every one thougth that Marine > Hydra > Marauders > Roaches > Marines.This led to great mixed armies as each player tried to have the perfect mix of hydra/roaches and marines.
However, nowadays, more and more people realizes that Marauders = Hydras. SO there is basically no need for marines anymore until mutas ( wich cant be rushed or the marauder push will just rape the Z , plus mutas does very little damage to marauders so they will deal a LOT of damage before deing)
I have nothing against Marauder being core of the T army. But my current concern is that the marauder makes the marines useless. This is somewhat true in ZvT, and seems to be even more of a concern in ZvP ( but i will let TvPs expert confirm this.).
tl:dr :
Marauder strength makes the marine useless.
totally agree. this is the problem i have with marauders, ever since patch 6 they took the thunder away from the marines totally
On April 07 2010 00:18 slimshady wrote: Actually, I like this idea: the zealot's charge being immune to the marauder's slow effect. Zealots won't be so useless vs marauders.
the problem is whenever marauders get charged they can just back for 2-3 seconds and zealot wont get an attack off and they r back to square 1. zealots themselves cant touch the marauders in a battle like this without flank or high numbers that causes ai issues to the marauders, the charge doesnt do squat even if it wasnt slowed
A couple things you mention here bring up a relevant note:
I often employ a quick drop/stim strategy on Desert Oasis (though I dislike the map in general), and I find it to be quite effective. I agree that on most maps, this type of thing isn't really that effective. At the very least, on Oasis it keeps the toss occupied while I expand, and the rush distance is so long that even if you lose most of your force you'll have macroed enough by the time the toss army gets to you.
I ended up in such a situation, against Plexa of all people, in a ladder match yesterday, and early zealot charge was actually the deciding factor in him holding off my drop. If he had gone Immortal heavy, the game probably would have been over. Zealots just take so little damage from Marauders, and are very effective as long as you have units that can take shots at the Marauders while they micro away.
Overall on this issue, I think the only problem really is the early game. When it gets to late game, PvT is largely balanced (though small micro mistakes on either side can be game-ending). The issue for Terran is that if you nerf Marauders (even by just requiring another building for them), something has to be done to help out Terran early on. Marines and SCVs have already taken huge hits, and it's difficult enough to micro off early pressure with them now.
I see we still haven't settled on what is the problem with the Marauder. Again, I think it is how strong they are early game - which can be easily fixed by increasing the tech lab build time and cost (to 50/50, a modest increase!). Furthermore, I think charge should be made more accessible but I think that might just be my protoss bias seeping through - 150/150 like blink would make me happy. I say make charge more accessible since it means Zealots can fight against Marauder since their base speed is boosted to the same as the stalker (fast than marauder) and charge always helps!
Other than the early game issues, PvT is fine in the midgame/lategame and it becomes real battle of skill (which is what we all want, right?). Nerfing the Marauder in any long standing way will just hurt this - HP nerfs, removing stimpack and whatnot are not the answer. Slow as an upgrade might be, but I think a simple increase in tech lab build time will suffice (and deal with the reaper cheese while we are at it).
On April 07 2010 13:19 AgmLauncher wrote: I play Terran, and the two things I've observed is that the Marauder is too useful, and the Hellion is not useful enough. The Marauder is a catch-all unit, even more so than the Marine's role in SC1. Meanwhile the Hellion is good against what? 3 units in the whole game? (banelings, zerglings, and zealots, Reapers don't count since Marauders counter them anyway).
There's no doubt that the Marauder is a boring, linear unit. If Blizzard plays around with with the Marauder and the Hellion a bit, they could diversify Terran's early game options while balancing out the Marauder.
Even if the Marauder was "balanced" (as in, it has a counter), it's still not balanced because Terran are so dependent on it.
Hellions dont counter banelings at all... when a ling turns from ling to baneling they drop the (light armor) and just become Bio.. so hellions dont do any bonus damage to them.. and the baneling does bonus damage to the hellions.. and dont say "just gotta micro them" tested with psyonic_reaver there not a counter as long as the banelings have speed upgrade your just asking to get rocked >_< hellions cant even beat banelings 200 v 200 pop~
I see we still haven't settled on what is the problem with the Marauder. Again, I think it is how strong they are early game - which can be easily fixed by increasing the tech lab build time and cost (to 50/50, a modest increase!). Furthermore, I think charge should be made more accessible but I think that might just be my protoss bias seeping through - 150/150 like blink would make me happy. I say make charge more accessible since it means Zealots can fight against Marauder since their base speed is boosted to the same as the stalker (fast than marauder) and charge always helps!
Other than the early game issues, PvT is fine in the midgame/lategame and it becomes real battle of skill (which is what we all want, right?). Nerfing the Marauder in any long standing way will just hurt this - HP nerfs, removing stimpack and whatnot are not the answer. Slow as an upgrade might be, but I think a simple increase in tech lab build time will suffice (and deal with the reaper cheese while we are at it).
Like your idea of increasing tech lab cost and build time because it makes the reactor a little more appealing. Only problem is that I just don't see that as enough. An upgrade for slow down gives your opponent a solid cushion for getting ready. Increasing tech lab cost and build time seems like it would barely makes a dent at all. Again, solid idea but maybe a bit too modest, as you said.
I see we still haven't settled on what is the problem with the Marauder. Again, I think it is how strong they are early game - which can be easily fixed by increasing the tech lab build time and cost (to 50/50, a modest increase!). Furthermore, I think charge should be made more accessible but I think that might just be my protoss bias seeping through - 150/150 like blink would make me happy. I say make charge more accessible since it means Zealots can fight against Marauder since their base speed is boosted to the same as the stalker (fast than marauder) and charge always helps!
Other than the early game issues, PvT is fine in the midgame/lategame and it becomes real battle of skill (which is what we all want, right?). Nerfing the Marauder in any long standing way will just hurt this - HP nerfs, removing stimpack and whatnot are not the answer. Slow as an upgrade might be, but I think a simple increase in tech lab build time will suffice (and deal with the reaper cheese while we are at it).
Like your idea of increasing tech lab cost and build time because it makes the reactor a little more appealing. Only problem is that I just don't see that as enough. An upgrade for slow down gives your opponent a solid cushion for getting ready. Increasing tech lab cost and build time seems like it barely makes a dent at all. Again, solid idea but maybe a bit too modest, as you said.
The issue is what problem do you have in mind that needs to be solved? In my mind it's simply that the rushes are too powerful and slowing them down should alleviate that. However, you may think there is a different issue at hand - in which case do share!
I see we still haven't settled on what is the problem with the Marauder. Again, I think it is how strong they are early game - which can be easily fixed by increasing the tech lab build time and cost (to 50/50, a modest increase!). Furthermore, I think charge should be made more accessible but I think that might just be my protoss bias seeping through - 150/150 like blink would make me happy. I say make charge more accessible since it means Zealots can fight against Marauder since their base speed is boosted to the same as the stalker (fast than marauder) and charge always helps!
Other than the early game issues, PvT is fine in the midgame/lategame and it becomes real battle of skill (which is what we all want, right?). Nerfing the Marauder in any long standing way will just hurt this - HP nerfs, removing stimpack and whatnot are not the answer. Slow as an upgrade might be, but I think a simple increase in tech lab build time will suffice (and deal with the reaper cheese while we are at it).
Like your idea of increasing tech lab cost and build time because it makes the reactor a little more appealing. Only problem is that I just don't see that as enough. An upgrade for slow down gives your opponent a solid cushion for getting ready. Increasing tech lab cost and build time seems like it barely makes a dent at all. Again, solid idea but maybe a bit too modest, as you said.
The issue is what problem do you have in mind that needs to be solved? In my mind it's simply that the rushes are too powerful and slowing them down should alleviate that. However, you may think there is a different issue at hand - in which case do share!
No I would agree, that is the issue. I would also agree that your suggested changes do solve that problem, as well as making reactors more appealing in comparison. Just seems like this would barely be enough to slow down these powerful rushes and that something a *bit* more time consuming (like an upgrade) would be needed.
Well the current state of things has it that you can get Marauders out and to the Protoss base before the Protoss can get his first Stalker - that's an issue which should be solved with an increase tech lab time. If issues remain once that possibility is removed then yea, upgrades would be the next step.
you may discuss helions, siege tanks or vikings for hundered of pages but you know marauders do their job.
its the most reliable unit of terran arsenal. they are good for melee units except lings, they are good for ranged units with high dmg, they are good to ruin your opponent's base.
there is nothing wrong with them. they are the heroes and terran army really need heroes. maybe the problem is +dmg bonus mechanic and maybe your answer hidden somewhere in that topic: Role vs Counter: A Theory on S][C Unit Design
Don't see how people could possibly have problems with the slow not working on melee units for "lore" reasons. Nothing in the game make sense in terms of lore. Why does ZvZ even exist when the Swarm is all controlled by Kerrigan? Does it mean we should disable ZvZ because it makes no sense "lore wise"?
If you want it to still make sense. Call it something like: "Magnetic Rounds (or Encumbering Rounds) - Each shot will attach itself to the targets armor, weighing them down"
Now it makes sense for unarmored units to be unaffected, since they have no armor. Same with massive units, they are too large to be slowed down by such.
I mean, the "brood war" itself was all about Kerrigan using zerg to fight zerg. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more of that kind of thing in SC2.
I see we still haven't settled on what is the problem with the Marauder. Again, I think it is how strong they are early game - which can be easily fixed by increasing the tech lab build time and cost (to 50/50, a modest increase!). Furthermore, I think charge should be made more accessible but I think that might just be my protoss bias seeping through - 150/150 like blink would make me happy. I say make charge more accessible since it means Zealots can fight against Marauder since their base speed is boosted to the same as the stalker (fast than marauder) and charge always helps!
Other than the early game issues, PvT is fine in the midgame/lategame and it becomes real battle of skill (which is what we all want, right?). Nerfing the Marauder in any long standing way will just hurt this - HP nerfs, removing stimpack and whatnot are not the answer. Slow as an upgrade might be, but I think a simple increase in tech lab build time will suffice (and deal with the reaper cheese while we are at it).
Like your idea of increasing tech lab cost and build time because it makes the reactor a little more appealing. Only problem is that I just don't see that as enough. An upgrade for slow down gives your opponent a solid cushion for getting ready. Increasing tech lab cost and build time seems like it barely makes a dent at all. Again, solid idea but maybe a bit too modest, as you said.
The issue is what problem do you have in mind that needs to be solved? In my mind it's simply that the rushes are too powerful and slowing them down should alleviate that. However, you may think there is a different issue at hand - in which case do share!
so lets make slow 50-50 upgrade or something with short time which will prevent early game rushes but wont hurt late game balance and factory/starport units
On April 07 2010 21:19 suejak wrote: I mean, the "brood war" itself was all about Kerrigan using zerg to fight zerg. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more of that kind of thing in SC2.
Well, at the end she united the Swarm. Regardless, even if there were some stray zerg, they wouldn't have had the same mutations as the Kerrigan swarm (i.e. they wouldn't have the new units in SC2).
My concern about the marauder is that it seems to be a general-purpose anti-ground unit, and the Terran army seems to have a bunch of those: hellion, marauder, tank, as well as (to a lesser extent) marine, viking, and thor. I understand that they each have specific weaknesses, but it just seems like those weaknesses are "designed in" to try to force the player to vary his composition to deal with "everything". But really - as we know from SC:BW - you need to have a limited basic composition, because building a few of everything, in order to deal with everything, gets you killed by masses of one unit that most of your units don't deal with very well.
As it stands now, the Marauder is forming the basis of most Terran compositions (especially TvP early game) because it's the best all-around unit (except vs. air, of course). Yes it's weak to zealots, but hey, everything has to have a weak point and that's why you have support units like the hellion.
My primary question with the Marauder, therefore, is: why are marines even in the game? You need a few for anti-air apparently, but that seems to be all they're good for outside of TvT. And yes, of course the marauder probably needs a little balance work, but if we just slot it into the "generic useful unit" role for Terran, we can work from there.
Vs zerg they are insane good hard counter to zerg and are ok vs hydras. 1 rax into fax into reac fax pump out hellions go go.
But if he makes roaches which 95% of players do (especially if they scout you), then you've just wasted a ton of minerals on a unit that has been rendered obsolete, and double obsolete when Mutas hit the field. You can easily kite Roaches with Hellions, but they do so little damage that you're just wasting your attention/APM at that point.
If I had my choice between 100 minerals for a Hellion and 100 minerals for a Marauder, the Marauder is by far the better choice. I realize Marauders cost gas, but not that much.
Hellions are much better off if the zerg fast expands like 90 % of them do now a days vs a terran. you keep him near his base if he moves out you tourch all his drones : P and his roachs will be late cause fast expand. Really it all depends on the way the match is going. Getting marauder in the late/mid game would most times probly be the better choice hellions are a harsment unit and only used for some things. Where as the marauder is made to be a front line unit.
Hellions are never really a obsolete unit they are good for many things after roachs come out scouting harsment of front line units and expands drops w/e. Then when hydras come out good again.
On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote: Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not.
On April 06 2010 20:09 MorroW wrote: why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine?
ur killing every single rush possibility of the terran by doing this, marine bunker rush? yea right like thats gonna happen when bunks r 30 and rines r 25
I feel this is an interesting point there should be more discussion about- after all, you'll never be able to agree on fixes for the Marauder if you can't first agree on what's the problem with the Marauder (if any).
Do Terrans have the capacity to be the aggressors most of the time in TvP? Are Protoss just as capable of putting the pressure on Terrans, or maybe even more so? Let's try to figure this out constructively. Early pressure tactics mentioned so far include:
Just as important as the number of ways you can put early pressure on your opponent is, how effective are these strats? If we can get a good grasp on how strong P early pressure is compared to T early pressure, we can get past the first hurdle, namely: agree on what the problem is.
Excellent post. I'll try redirect the thread in this direction.
great pos except its not true -drops? ive never seen any terran ever going fast drop against toss, why would u do it? how can this be effective. scratch this off the list because fast drop by terran is just as likely and just as effective as a fast drop by toss (which ive seen alot more of) bunker rush? same here, ive never seen a bunker rush. a bunker takes 30 seconds to make and scvs got 45 hp. even if bunker rush was possible it would include in the proxi rax so it wouldnt qualify as 2
On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote: Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not.
On April 06 2010 20:09 MorroW wrote: why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine?
ur killing every single rush possibility of the terran by doing this, marine bunker rush? yea right like thats gonna happen when bunks r 30 and rines r 25
I feel this is an interesting point there should be more discussion about- after all, you'll never be able to agree on fixes for the Marauder if you can't first agree on what's the problem with the Marauder (if any).
Do Terrans have the capacity to be the aggressors most of the time in TvP? Are Protoss just as capable of putting the pressure on Terrans, or maybe even more so? Let's try to figure this out constructively. Early pressure tactics mentioned so far include:
Just as important as the number of ways you can put early pressure on your opponent is, how effective are these strats? If we can get a good grasp on how strong P early pressure is compared to T early pressure, we can get past the first hurdle, namely: agree on what the problem is.
Excellent post. I'll try redirect the thread in this direction.
Once again, as a Z player, i will give my insigth on the ZvT matchup. Before anyone ask, I am a ~1150 platinum player. Not a great player, but not a bad one either.
In the beginning of the beta, every one thougth that Marine > Hydra > Marauders > Roaches > Marines.This led to great mixed armies as each player tried to have the perfect mix of hydra/roaches and marines.
However, nowadays, more and more people realizes that Marauders = Hydras. SO there is basically no need for marines anymore until mutas ( wich cant be rushed or the marauder push will just rape the Z , plus mutas does very little damage to marauders so they will deal a LOT of damage before deing)
I have nothing against Marauder being core of the T army. But my current concern is that the marauder makes the marines useless. This is somewhat true in ZvT, and seems to be even more of a concern in ZvP ( but i will let TvPs expert confirm this.).
tl:dr :
Marauder strength makes the marine useless.
totally agree. this is the problem i have with marauders, ever since patch 6 they took the thunder away from the marines totally
On April 07 2010 00:18 slimshady wrote: Actually, I like this idea: the zealot's charge being immune to the marauder's slow effect. Zealots won't be so useless vs marauders.
the problem is whenever marauders get charged they can just back for 2-3 seconds and zealot wont get an attack off and they r back to square 1. zealots themselves cant touch the marauders in a battle like this without flank or high numbers that causes ai issues to the marauders, the charge doesnt do squat even if it wasnt slowed
A couple things you mention here bring up a relevant note:
I often employ a quick drop/stim strategy on Desert Oasis (though I dislike the map in general), and I find it to be quite effective. I agree that on most maps, this type of thing isn't really that effective. At the very least, on Oasis it keeps the toss occupied while I expand, and the rush distance is so long that even if you lose most of your force you'll have macroed enough by the time the toss army gets to you.
I ended up in such a situation, against Plexa of all people, in a ladder match yesterday, and early zealot charge was actually the deciding factor in him holding off my drop. If he had gone Immortal heavy, the game probably would have been over. Zealots just take so little damage from Marauders, and are very effective as long as you have units that can take shots at the Marauders while they micro away.
Overall on this issue, I think the only problem really is the early game. When it gets to late game, PvT is largely balanced (though small micro mistakes on either side can be game-ending). The issue for Terran is that if you nerf Marauders (even by just requiring another building for them), something has to be done to help out Terran early on. Marines and SCVs have already taken huge hits, and it's difficult enough to micro off early pressure with them now.
I see we still haven't settled on what is the problem with the Marauder. Again, I think it is how strong they are early game - which can be easily fixed by increasing the tech lab build time and cost (to 50/50, a modest increase!). Furthermore, I think charge should be made more accessible but I think that might just be my protoss bias seeping through - 150/150 like blink would make me happy. I say make charge more accessible since it means Zealots can fight against Marauder since their base speed is boosted to the same as the stalker (fast than marauder) and charge always helps!
Other than the early game issues, PvT is fine in the midgame/lategame and it becomes real battle of skill (which is what we all want, right?). Nerfing the Marauder in any long standing way will just hurt this - HP nerfs, removing stimpack and whatnot are not the answer. Slow as an upgrade might be, but I think a simple increase in tech lab build time will suffice (and deal with the reaper cheese while we are at it).
Even with charge tho marauders kite the crap out of zealots they only get 1 shot of then get slowed again for another 10 sec. Also does not fix the mix of units agian will still only be 100 % marauders. Removeing slow from melee units will fix early game and bring back a good mix.
I see we still haven't settled on what is the problem with the Marauder. Again, I think it is how strong they are early game - which can be easily fixed by increasing the tech lab build time and cost (to 50/50, a modest increase!). Furthermore, I think charge should be made more accessible but I think that might just be my protoss bias seeping through - 150/150 like blink would make me happy. I say make charge more accessible since it means Zealots can fight against Marauder since their base speed is boosted to the same as the stalker (fast than marauder) and charge always helps!
Other than the early game issues, PvT is fine in the midgame/lategame and it becomes real battle of skill (which is what we all want, right?). Nerfing the Marauder in any long standing way will just hurt this - HP nerfs, removing stimpack and whatnot are not the answer. Slow as an upgrade might be, but I think a simple increase in tech lab build time will suffice (and deal with the reaper cheese while we are at it).
Like your idea of increasing tech lab cost and build time because it makes the reactor a little more appealing. Only problem is that I just don't see that as enough. An upgrade for slow down gives your opponent a solid cushion for getting ready. Increasing tech lab cost and build time seems like it barely makes a dent at all. Again, solid idea but maybe a bit too modest, as you said.
The issue is what problem do you have in mind that needs to be solved? In my mind it's simply that the rushes are too powerful and slowing them down should alleviate that. However, you may think there is a different issue at hand - in which case do share!
so lets make slow 50-50 upgrade or something with short time which will prevent early game rushes but wont hurt late game balance and factory/starport units
still does not fix the problem still will mass 100 % marauders and still rush will happen just 1 min back and that won't make a diff. why get mariners when marauders can kites melee units that are made to counter them.
On April 08 2010 02:17 xnub wrote: still does not fix the problem still will mass 100 % marauders and still rush will happen just 1 min back and that won't make a diff. why get mariners when marauders can kites melee units that are made to counter them.
On April 07 2010 21:19 suejak wrote: I mean, the "brood war" itself was all about Kerrigan using zerg to fight zerg. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more of that kind of thing in SC2.
Well, at the end she united the Swarm. Regardless, even if there were some stray zerg, they wouldn't have had the same mutations as the Kerrigan swarm (i.e. they wouldn't have the new units in SC2).
LOL, how do you know? You have no clue what the plot to SC2 is, nor how zerg physiology/evolution work, so your attempts to claim that ZvZ is somehow non-canon or inconsistent with lore fall flat. :D
Seriously, just hit the Marauder with a HUGE nerf bat.
Welcome to Blizzard Nerf-o-Matic! What would you like to do with the Marauder? a) Increase its mineral cost. b) Increase it gas cost. c) Increase its build time. d) Require players to upgrade the passive slow e) Require players to upgrade a separate stim pack for them f) Make the stim take away a percentage of HP instead of a fixed cost. g) Require players to upgrade its range first. h) Make Light units immune to slow. i) Make Biological units immune to slow. j) All of the above. k) I would like to pick the following options only: _____________
On April 07 2010 21:19 suejak wrote: I mean, the "brood war" itself was all about Kerrigan using zerg to fight zerg. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more of that kind of thing in SC2.
Well, at the end she united the Swarm. Regardless, even if there were some stray zerg, they wouldn't have had the same mutations as the Kerrigan swarm (i.e. they wouldn't have the new units in SC2).
LOL, how do you know? You have no clue what the plot to SC2 is, nor how zerg physiology/evolution work, so your attempts to claim that ZvZ is somehow non-canon or inconsistent with lore fall flat. :D
Of course the rogue cerebrates are still out there and they are smart enough to steal some evolved strains from Kerrigan.
On April 08 2010 02:28 link0 wrote: The marauder should only be nerfed when the roach and immortal are treated similarly.
Marauder Concussive Shells now require an upgrade."
Close this shit temporarily.
On April 07 2010 21:30 2SCV1cup wrote: so lets make slow 50-50 upgrade or something with short time which will prevent early game rushes but wont hurt late game balance and factory/starport units
If marauders are nerfed and no buff is given to siege tanks or marines i swear i'm gonna switch race. We make them because they are our only option, not because they are OP. Marines got nerfed too much and playing with that many marauders doesn't favor terran at all.
Marauder slow now requires an upgrade. Tanks got kinda buffed with lowered build time, but I'm wondering when Blizzard will realize that no one's building tanks not because they take too long but because they're too freaking expensive.
On April 08 2010 02:45 iG.ClouD wrote: If marauders are nerfed and no buff is given to siege tanks or marines i swear i'm gonna switch race. We make them because they are our only option, not because they are OP. Marines got nerfed too much and playing with that many marauders doesn't favor terran at all.
Please stick to Terra, I start feeling lonely amongst those Zergs
On April 08 2010 02:45 iG.ClouD wrote: If marauders are nerfed and no buff is given to siege tanks or marines i swear i'm gonna switch race. We make them because they are our only option, not because they are OP. Marines got nerfed too much and playing with that many marauders doesn't favor terran at all.
Oh gawwwwd. Shut up already.
As a terran, I'm proudly lettin' you know that we have a shit ton of choices.
On April 08 2010 02:45 iG.ClouD wrote: If marauders are nerfed and no buff is given to siege tanks or marines i swear i'm gonna switch race. We make them because they are our only option, not because they are OP. Marines got nerfed too much and playing with that many marauders doesn't favor terran at all.
Please stick to Terra, I start feeling lonely amongst those Zergs
i think we can close this topic now
cloud got what he wanted. tanks r better and rines do +25% dmg vs roach now which imo is the biggest change in patch 8 for me ^^
Couldn't they just decrease the slow effect or time to help balance things or make mauraders walk a bit slower as to they can make one unit slowed if they really chase but other units may have to stray farther to actually kill the retreating unit? itd make kiting much harder but keep their role and still be effective o:
On April 08 2010 02:45 iG.ClouD wrote: If marauders are nerfed and no buff is given to siege tanks or marines i swear i'm gonna switch race. We make them because they are our only option, not because they are OP. Marines got nerfed too much and playing with that many marauders doesn't favor terran at all.
well marauders were nerfed but siege tanks were buffed.
Well this patch solves nothing can still do the rush just pushed back 80 sec no big deal. Marauders still counter everything from the warpgate so all Terrans will still make is marauders guess your out of luck marines. no more MMM just Marauder Medvacs Ghost MMG !
On April 08 2010 06:11 xnub wrote: Well this patch solves nothing can still do the rush just pushed back 80 sec no big deal. Marauders still counter everything from the warpgate so all Terrans will still make is marauders guess your out of luck marines. no more MMM just Marauder Medvacs Ghost MMG !
Huh? 80 seconds is a long fucking time. Late-game marauder-medivac are no problem at all for PvT -- just takes templars/sentries and a solid ground army of any kind.
On April 08 2010 07:09 DreamShake wrote: They should've nerfed Immortal damage vs Armored.. Its ridiculous
I really dont' think they should. Immortals' super-high damage are the only reason why Protoss can even survive Marauder and Roach pushes. Without the 50 damage output from Immortals, Protoss would get crushed every time Terran or Zerg a-move with Marauders and Roaches.
On April 08 2010 06:11 xnub wrote: Well this patch solves nothing can still do the rush just pushed back 80 sec no big deal. Marauders still counter everything from the warpgate so all Terrans will still make is marauders guess your out of luck marines. no more MMM just Marauder Medvacs Ghost MMG !
Huh? 80 seconds is a long fucking time. Late-game marauder-medivac are no problem at all for PvT -- just takes templars/sentries and a solid ground army of any kind.
can still do the same rush as before and win /shrug you have 2 less marauders but you still rape them cause you still get the slow.
And the problem never was late game marauders medvac ghost. it was the omg i will just spawn all marauders and use only that to rape you at start. still same thing. Marauders still have no early game counter from the warpgate and terran still only spam marauder cause marines are a waste. Didn't solve or help the MMM mix still just marauders.
Not sure what it means (as again, without a beta key myself I haven't been playing) but I'm watching Psyonic's stream at the moment and PainUser's almost pure marauder has been ripping up everything the whole game - even zealots. Immortals? Gone. Stalkers? Gone. Sentries? Gone. Even with storm and force fields wrecking his positioning the Terran's coming out ahead.
I can't figure out whether this is a problem of unit composition - a P trying to use a little of everything instead of focusing on something - or what, but it's seriously ugly to watch. (And yes, this is after this new patch with the "nerf".
reduce marauder hp to 80 and give him a gauss rifle with 8 damage//+1 to armor. and make him cost 85 mineral 15 gas. make it a fat marine. i'd be happy with it.
On April 08 2010 10:53 FREEloss_ca wrote: They hardcounter too many units. TvT is an abomination of a matchup.
Marauders hard counter: Hellions Tanks Thors Vikings
anyone who goes only marauder tvt gets shit on by banshees hard.
That's not the point. The point is that ONE unit counters FOUR.
I can't even think of a single unit in Sc1 that hard countered that many units in a single matchup. Except maybe BC's, Ultralisks and Carriers, but they were late game and the highest teir. This is a teir 1.5 unit...
Browder needs to seriously re-work this unit, as well as the Roach. BROWDER, IF YOU'RE READING THIS, ONLY YOU CAN KILL THIS ABOMINATION YOU'VE CREATED!!!! AAARRRRGGHHHH!!!
On April 08 2010 10:53 FREEloss_ca wrote: They hardcounter too many units. TvT is an abomination of a matchup.
Marauders hard counter: Hellions Tanks Thors Vikings
anyone who goes only marauder tvt gets shit on by banshees hard.
That's not the point. The point is that ONE unit counters FOUR.
I can't even think of a single unit in Sc1 that hard countered that many units in a single matchup. Except maybe BC's, Ultralisks and Carriers, but they were late game and the highest teir. This is a teir 1.5 unit...
Browder needs to seriously re-work this unit, as well as the Roach. BROWDER, IF YOU'RE READING THIS, ONLY YOU CAN KILL THIS ABOMINATION YOU'VE CREATED!!!! AAARRRRGGHHHH!!!
Meh tvt marauders are fine thye get raped by tanks like hard core. If he goes pure marauder go banshees and tanks then viks if he gets air and laugh.
On April 08 2010 13:20 oxxo wrote: Roach/Immortal/Marauder need to be removed or completely redone.
Oh I dont know, but the Roach sounds pretty much fixed now (I am taking the amount of whining of Zerg players as a sign that it is fixed) and the Immortal can be countered somewhat easily by Zerg (Infestor and Neural Parasite) and Terrans (Ghost with EMP or simply Mass Marines). The only one of the trio who isnt really countered by anything except others of the three is the Marauder.
I think they make the game really boring to watch. You'd think that wouldn't be the case with their kiting potential, but when you are just watching some guy base camp, make marauders, attack, camp some more, make more marauders, attack, repeat, etc etc etc - its really boring playstyle.
I'm hoping that its just cause its the beta and the entertaining playstyles will emerge on top after a few months of people playing the game.
On April 08 2010 13:20 oxxo wrote: Roach/Immortal/Marauder need to be removed or completely redone.
Oh I dont know, but the Roach sounds pretty much fixed now (I am taking the amount of whining of Zerg players as a sign that it is fixed) and the Immortal can be countered somewhat easily by Zerg (Infestor and Neural Parasite) and Terrans (Ghost with EMP or simply Mass Marines). The only one of the trio who isnt really countered by anything except others of the three is the Marauder.
I totally agree with the first bart.Tough the shell nerf takes that issue to the mid-game where all races have plenty of options (banshees,colloss,templar,infestor,muta,tanks (well placed), speedlings, charge zeal).
On April 09 2010 14:27 Makica wrote: I think they make the game really boring to watch. You'd think that wouldn't be the case with their kiting potential, but when you are just watching some guy base camp, make marauders, attack, camp some more, make more marauders, attack, repeat, etc etc etc - its really boring playstyle.
I'm hoping that its just cause its the beta and the entertaining playstyles will emerge on top after a few months of people playing the game.
I think this is what is actually happen. I've noticed that many Terran try mech vs Zerg and mix ups in TvP. Seeing this evolution gives me hope we are straigthtly heading towards balance by now.
On April 08 2010 10:53 FREEloss_ca wrote: They hardcounter too many units. TvT is an abomination of a matchup.
Marauders hard counter: Hellions Tanks Thors Vikings
anyone who goes only marauder tvt gets shit on by banshees hard.
That's not the point. The point is that ONE unit counters FOUR.
I can't even think of a single unit in Sc1 that hard countered that many units in a single matchup. Except maybe BC's, Ultralisks and Carriers, but they were late game and the highest teir. This is a teir 1.5 unit...
Browder needs to seriously re-work this unit, as well as the Roach. BROWDER, IF YOU'RE READING THIS, ONLY YOU CAN KILL THIS ABOMINATION YOU'VE CREATED!!!! AAARRRRGGHHHH!!!
Since when do marauders counter tanks and thors?
I go marauder tank viking in TvT, and that always beats pure marauder when I play it. If Marauder really did counter tanks and vikings, then pure marauder would beat a mixed composition of units.
Marauders don't even account for the largest portion of my army either, tanks do. Tanks in siege mode rape marauders especially in large numbers, I don't know why anyone would go pure marauder in TvT.
On April 08 2010 13:20 oxxo wrote: Roach/Immortal/Marauder need to be removed or completely redone.
Oh I dont know, but the Roach sounds pretty much fixed now (I am taking the amount of whining of Zerg players as a sign that it is fixed) and the Immortal can be countered somewhat easily by Zerg (Infestor and Neural Parasite) and Terrans (Ghost with EMP or simply Mass Marines). The only one of the trio who isnt really countered by anything except others of the three is the Marauder.
That doesn't tell you anything. Some players like to whine about everything and some players will complain as soon as their race gets nerfed, even if it has zero impact on their win rates.
I bet Blizzard could nerf Ultralisks by 10 hit points and people would still complain that it was way too much.
I go marauder tank viking in TvT, and that always beats pure marauder when I play it. If Marauder really did counter tanks and vikings, then pure marauder would beat a mixed composition of units.
Marauders don't even account for the largest portion of my army either, tanks do. Tanks in siege mode rape marauders especially in large numbers, I don't know why anyone would go pure marauder in TvT.
Agreed with this post. I usually go marine tank in TvT and never have a problem dealing with marauder spammers. If anything tanks and vikings are the units that counter *everything* in tvt, not marauders.
I go marauder tank viking in TvT, and that always beats pure marauder when I play it. If Marauder really did counter tanks and vikings, then pure marauder would beat a mixed composition of units.
Marauders don't even account for the largest portion of my army either, tanks do. Tanks in siege mode rape marauders especially in large numbers, I don't know why anyone would go pure marauder in TvT.
Agreed with this post. I usually go marine tank in TvT and never have a problem dealing with marauder spammers. If anything tanks and vikings are the units that counter *everything* in tvt, not marauders.
Marauders rape thors but everything rapes thors if you focus them for 1 sec. As for tanks ya GL killing a bunch of siege tanks with marauders lol. Unless you are really behind or spread out alot your tanks will rape them like no others lol.
On April 08 2010 10:53 FREEloss_ca wrote: They hardcounter too many units. TvT is an abomination of a matchup.
Marauders hard counter: Hellions Tanks Thors Vikings
anyone who goes only marauder tvt gets shit on by banshees hard.
That's not the point. The point is that ONE unit counters FOUR.
I can't even think of a single unit in Sc1 that hard countered that many units in a single matchup. Except maybe BC's, Ultralisks and Carriers, but they were late game and the highest teir. This is a teir 1.5 unit...
Ignoring the fact that the list of counters is not entirely accurate -- How about TvP Dragoons? Goons can beat every single Terran unit in the right circumstance.
Other than the early game issues, PvT is fine in the midgame/lategame and it becomes real battle of skill (which is what we all want, right?). Nerfing the Marauder in any long standing way will just hurt this - HP nerfs, removing stimpack and whatnot are not the answer. Slow as an upgrade might be, but I think a simple increase in tech lab build time will suffice (and deal with the reaper cheese while we are at it).
I don't see how you can say mid/lategame PvT is balanced by any means. Terran has no possible way currently to fight battles against a competent protoss lategame. Once Templar and Collossus are out, its nearly an impossible uphill battle. The real problem here is warpgating templars in with enough energy to storm immediately.
EPT
. whilst doing something else to make terran mech more viable. It's really hard to say what, and im not gona even try here cos i dont know enough about tvz, hell taking away marauders slow will probably break that mu anyway, so its tough.
