|
On April 04 2010 22:32 Bash wrote:
I am completely flabbergasted by the things some people spout in this thread, I mean we're in beta, we should try to move the game into a direction which is the most enjoyable for all sides, it's not about trying to preserve your own retarded advantage in some area, nor should you be trying to sway people's opinions so that one side gets either unjust buffs or nerfs (which actually happened to toss already).
There are so many people in this thread arguing AGAINST changing the dynamic of the terran army away from the 1-unit-to-rule-them-all that terran is right now. They would literally rather have 1 overpowered unit that requires little skill to use to completely overpower most everything else than a balanced army composition, and what is their argument? It's because apparently protoss had it so easy in BW and only needed to build one unit. This is so bewildering to me I'm beginning to think I'm not on TL at all but on the battle.net forums, not only is that statement grossly untrue, but it also has nothing to do with the subject at hand which is fucking Starcraft 2!
All the while you are complaining about how useless the other terran stuff is and just violently lashing out at the people who seek to improve the game through discussion to "work around" your imbalanced and monotonously broken race because you'd rather stay in your rut of pure marauders than have your race rebalanced in some way.
For the record I think there are severe problems with the way the zerg army works as well, and while protoss is clearly the most "whole" at the moment (I doubt anyone is going to argue against the fact that the typical P army composition is the most interesting and varied at the moment), it still has some ways to go before I'd call it ready for launch. What I'm arguing here is that people are so unwilling to tackle the issues that plague the game because they've quickly learned to abuse them and don't want to let go of their little advantages and this needs to change, at least on these forums if nowhere else.
On a side note I really think this forum needs to be drastically more strict in it's banning policy regarding pure, unadultared idiocy so that the SC2 forum doesn't get even more out of hand that it is already.
this is what happens in all large public discussions.
|
Hmm, i dunno why i got attacked for saying what i said, - this is a forum after all and a "serious discussion" about marauders. I set forward a valuable point i think, if you nerf marauders you have to change alot of other stuff too - be that buffing other terran units, or nerfing alot of protoss/zerg units - it's very fiddly. As i said previously - the only viable unit early/mid game for terran vs protoss ground is marauders - it's the only one that can survive the brute force that is protoss (now i'm not talking imbalance here, before i get any other flame thrown my way) - it's as simple as that, terran have relatively few choices in how they can react to protoss early which is why your seeing next to no diversity in terran play.
|
On April 04 2010 21:45 DeMusliM wrote:
Almost tired of trying to be constructive with so much whine about marauders - As already stated, marauder are the only unit that even stand a chance early game vs the protoss gateway units, that's a fact. Even then when i say stand a chance - i don't mean counter, i literally mean what i say - stand a chance, even with an expo, and 3 or so bunkers. I've played several good protoss players, one that sticks in my mind called Bischu on the Euro server - he told me he NEVER loses to terran on any map, i won't reveal his strategy - but the fact he came up with something quite simplistic and yet it works with a very high success rate, even when i know exactly what he's gonna do i think that is in itself enough argument to show this mu isn't "ruined by marauder imbalance".
The fact that marauders seem strong - is just because the other terran units are very weak in comparrison.
Sorry to butt in here, but if someone really has a 100% unbeatable strategy vs another race and you're keeping it to yourself you're probably just going to make it take longer for it to be fixed. If everyones doing it, it will be nerfed. It's what beta is for.
|
I've deep respect of the creator of this topic, but its plain wrong that Marauders are imbalanced in any aspect. First of all you got to micro your marauders, then they 'counter' a zealot in 1v1. And they will counter a stalker in 1v1 without micro.
But have you ever thought about not being stupid and probably building 1 zealot and a stalker? The Zealot tanks the damage and the stalker is faster than a marauder and will kill it. Even works 1Zealot/1Stalker vs 2 Marauder if the Terran isn't paying attention for a second.
If you play a 2 rax Marauderrush like LzGamer suggested in another thread (Supply, Rax,Rax,Gas, OC, Supply Calldown) you'll get 2 marauders vs 1 stalker with the robotics finished and an immortal building. That immortal will rip through 3 or 4 marauders without big trouble because the fucking immortal deals 50 damage to marauders, got nearly 2,5x the HP and builds AS FAST AS a marauder (when being chronoboosted),
If you guys die to 1 Rax Marauder FE? Right, please don't tell me to watch HasuObs vs LucifroNNN because HasuObs didn't play it right. You can easily play 3 Warpgate + Robotics or 4 Warpgate fully supporting everything and Terran has a hard, if not impossible time to defend vs that, because as I mentioned the zealots tank the damage, sentries reduce the damage and stalkers go rape shit.
I tried those builds all with HasuObs and I played completely the same build LucifroNNN played. 1 Marine, 1 Marauder -> Expansion -> 2 more Marauders -> Stim while adding 2 more barracks.
HasuObs told me if he knew before he would have won easily. So please people come down and take a deeper look before calling a unit imbalanced.
Also make use of your spellcasters like the sentry, who can easily cast forcefields in between the marauders to make them ridiculously spread and useless.
|
On April 04 2010 22:58 faction123 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 21:45 DeMusliM wrote:
Almost tired of trying to be constructive with so much whine about marauders - As already stated, marauder are the only unit that even stand a chance early game vs the protoss gateway units, that's a fact. Even then when i say stand a chance - i don't mean counter, i literally mean what i say - stand a chance, even with an expo, and 3 or so bunkers. I've played several good protoss players, one that sticks in my mind called Bischu on the Euro server - he told me he NEVER loses to terran on any map, i won't reveal his strategy - but the fact he came up with something quite simplistic and yet it works with a very high success rate, even when i know exactly what he's gonna do i think that is in itself enough argument to show this mu isn't "ruined by marauder imbalance".
The fact that marauders seem strong - is just because the other terran units are very weak in comparrison. Sorry to butt in here, but if someone really has a 100% unbeatable strategy vs another race and you're keeping it to yourself you're probably just going to make it take longer for it to be fixed. If everyones doing it, it will be nerfed. It's what beta is for.
yeah. also, we want to know it... call it greed.
|
imo they are not imba at all
|
On April 04 2010 19:12 bLah. wrote:
You can't compare units 1v1 like stalker vs marauder because races are too different. It just doesn't work that way, mechanics are totally different + you have different support units etc +dude, you have immortals.
I'm really sick of people forcing their own strategies and not looking at the game at all. Everyone is like: "I want to make XY unit and it has to beat ZQ unit". NO!, it totally doesn't matter what you want, you have to play the game as it should be played.
There are perfectly good counters for everything in this game, you just have to learn how to use it.
or just try playing terran, get into plat div and play vs tosses and you'll see that we don't really have easymode there.
imho if marauders will get nerf then roaches/immortals/sentries need nerf + terran mech needs buff. Try playing terran on higher level and you'll see yourself what are possibilities.
This.
|
On April 04 2010 22:32 Bash wrote:
I am completely flabbergasted by the things some people spout in this thread, I mean we're in beta, we should try to move the game into a direction which is the most enjoyable for all sides, it's not about trying to preserve your own retarded advantage in some area, nor should you be trying to sway people's opinions so that one side gets either unjust buffs or nerfs (which actually happened to toss already).
There are so many people in this thread arguing AGAINST changing the dynamic of the terran army away from the 1-unit-to-rule-them-all that terran is right now. They would literally rather have 1 overpowered unit that requires little skill to use to completely overpower most everything else than a balanced army composition, and what is their argument? It's because apparently protoss had it so easy in BW and only needed to build one unit. This is so bewildering to me I'm beginning to think I'm not on TL at all but on the battle.net forums, not only is that statement grossly untrue, but it also has nothing to do with the subject at hand which is fucking Starcraft 2!
All the while you are complaining about how useless the other terran stuff is and just violently lashing out at the people who seek to improve the game through discussion to "work around" your imbalanced and monotonously broken race because you'd rather stay in your rut of pure marauders than have your race rebalanced in some way.
For the record I think there are severe problems with the way the zerg army works as well, and while protoss is clearly the most "whole" at the moment (I doubt anyone is going to argue against the fact that the typical P army composition is the most interesting and varied at the moment), it still has some ways to go before I'd call it ready for launch. What I'm arguing here is that people are so unwilling to tackle the issues that plague the game because they've quickly learned to abuse them and don't want to let go of their little advantages and this needs to change, at least on these forums if nowhere else.
On a side note I really think this forum needs to be drastically more strict in it's banning policy regarding pure, unadultared idiocy so that the SC2 forum doesn't get even more out of hand that it is already.
Suggesting that everyone (including one of the best if not the best European Terran players and TL.net MODERATOR that is also one of the best Euro terrans) that disagrees with you shows "pure, unadultared idiocy" is not the best way to go, you know?
There is NOTHING wrong with units being specialised - infantry GTA unit? Marine. Infantry GTG unit? Marauder. Infantry caster? Ghost. So try to be slightly more polite...
I too dislike the role of marauders ATM, i hoped that T army will be mix of rines and rauders, but so far the game changed so that rauders are main unit used when enemy uses ground forces with rines being units added when air appears (just like you massed rines as main offensive units in BW TvZ and added bats when enemy makes too many lings) and it is really nothing that "DRASTICALLY NEEDS CHANGE OMG".
It would be cool if game had very wide variety of units used and if marauders will be dominant Blizz will change them, but if rauders will just fulfill their role they won't
|
you have to remember half of the reason people make these comments is they didnt read the whole thread.
It might be that buffing mech alone would bring the needed diversity.. Most of the beef with marauders seems to be with the lack of diversity. That's my beef with them.
|
What amazes me is that in BW, going infantry against protoss is weak simply because all protoss tech seems to counter it. Sure M&M will steamroll gateway units, but storm, archons, reavers, etc, all just crush bio. Terran adapted by going heavily mech in this matchup. Why do Terran players somehow feel like they should be able to spam infantry and have it be effective vs high tech protoss?
Psi storm in BW absolutely obliterates infantry. And then we get a psi storm nerf because of that in SC2? Meh, I'm ranting.
Marauders definitely need some sort of nerf, simply because they are more effective than seemingly ever other terran unit. Yes marauders are too strong, but we need to tweak the rest of the terran army as well. No army should be able to or forced to mass one very powerful unit.
|
I think Marauders are actually a lot of fun (no i am not a terran) and the way they are implemented is very smart but I agree that there are still things that could be improved.
|
Well, i think the point of the original post was to show that marauders are the only unit that terran build. For their cost they are very effective and probably one of the strongest general purpose units in the game.
I think this means terran needs a review as a whole.
|
On April 04 2010 22:31 Spaylz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 22:27 MeProU_Kor wrote:
i dont know why people talk about marauders. i play P and T (more P) in platinum on place 8 and im happy if they go MMM+G, the first days i thought its very imbalanced but at that moment where you get used to feedback ghosts there is nothing and really nothing a bio army can do against a mixed p army. only problem i often see is that early marauders can put much pressure, but many people are just chrobo boosting their nexus all the time and the first unit they build is a immortal. seriously learn to use sentrys forcefield and delay the terran first, pick marauderes one by one that way and you will get in time your immortal + support units and will counter him.
@ all the whiners who say now "GHOST + EMP so imba and they destroy immortals" learn to split your armyat that moment where the terran has 1ghost you will have 2-3 immortals and he wont have a 2nd base and lategame PvT TvP is in favor of P by far. storm + colo own everything.
i dont get it why people always complain about P/T imbalance, if the only race that is imbalanced Z is. seriously they can expan where and when they want with their 300 mineral hatches and mapcontroll in the early game + they shit per hatch 7 larvas. the best is that they dont even need to be 1 base ahead like in sc1 so why are the hatches cheaper/faster than a cc/nexus?
T early game > P early Game but T late game < P late game
same like other matchups in sc1. That's very nice, but if the Terran has 3-4 Ghosts you're screwed. No matter how good you split your army he will EMP the crap out of you. So far the best counter I've seen is the strategy HasuObs uses. He builds Cannons and Pylons around Xel'Naga towers in order to have great mapcontrol and vision so he can use this advantage to Feedback Ghosts before they actually see what to EMP. But he still has to be very quick and that can't be applied to every game and to every position you can spawn in.
so the terran has 4 ghosts but you dont have HTs/ranged Colossus/halucination? Stim is 150 Gas, Marauders are 25 Gas each and Ghost are 150 Gas each and the Ghostacademy is 50 Gas + techlabs each 25 Gas.
you even dont need to be ahead of the T on bases like in sc1 so wait for your tech and expand then. i see many protoss expanding before a Terran with ~4 RAX and staying on 1 base and wonder why they get roflstomped. its because they are dumb and expand without a reason or a chance to hold the expo.
|
and no, the reason i kept his strategy a secret was he's in zotac today - i don't want to fumble his chances by blowing my mouth off. It's just respect, not cowardness.
Bischu - just beat MorroW, i wasn't lieing about his strategy being good, and yet simple ;S
|
all I see in the replies are "Nerf Maruaders, Buff Mech Units." Agreed with that.
|
Well then I will be watching for Bischu in Zotac!
|
On April 04 2010 23:09 Haemonculus wrote:
What amazes me is that in BW, going infantry against protoss is weak simply because all protoss tech seems to counter it. Sure M&M will steamroll gateway units, but storm, archons, reavers, etc, all just crush bio. Terran adapted by going heavily mech in this matchup. Why do Terran players somehow feel like they should be able to spam infantry and have it be effective vs high tech protoss?
Psi storm in BW absolutely obliterates infantry. And then we get a psi storm nerf because of that in SC2? Meh, I'm ranting.
Marauders definitely need some sort of nerf, simply because they are more effective than seemingly ever other terran unit. Yes marauders are too strong, but we need to tweak the rest of the terran army as well. No army should be able to or forced to mass one very powerful unit.
OK here's something actually. I am one of the people who think everything should be viable versus everything. I don't think that terrans should always have to go mech against protoss.
Of course I don't mean bio should be able to take storms in the face. I mean, if a Terran wanted to go bio instead of mech, it should simply mean a different playstyle. In this case, I guess it would mean crazy macro. Instead of expensive mech that can take a couple storms, you make a zillion cheap marines, 90% of which are going to die to storms, but still leaving like 50 to win the battle. 
I think it would offer some great entertainment as a spectator if pros could not only be good at a given matchup, but good at a certain unit composition in a given matchup.
|
On April 04 2010 19:16 omninmo wrote:
colossus is so OP..fix that first,
i think the marauder solution is to have their attack only slow once every 3 attacks.
Stupid... how are colossus OP if they can be attacked by both air and ground units. I find it's way balanced, it moves pretty slow and requires many resources to produce
|
On April 04 2010 23:09 Haemonculus wrote:
What amazes me is that in BW, going infantry against protoss is weak simply because all protoss tech seems to counter it. Sure M&M will steamroll gateway units, but storm, archons, reavers, etc, all just crush bio. Terran adapted by going heavily mech in this matchup. Why do Terran players somehow feel like they should be able to spam infantry and have it be effective vs high tech protoss?
Psi storm in BW absolutely obliterates infantry. And then we get a psi storm nerf because of that in SC2? Meh, I'm ranting.
Marauders definitely need some sort of nerf, simply because they are more effective than seemingly ever other terran unit. Yes marauders are too strong, but we need to tweak the rest of the terran army as well. No army should be able to or forced to mass one very powerful unit.
because mech doesnt work, and thats the real issue. maybe marauders rnt making the game imbalanced, but the way blizzard has it right now is that all terrans r forced to pump really many marauders instead of doing something else which i think is lame as hell. u should be able to pick mech bio or biomech in every match up, but right now its pretty much biomech in tvz, mech tvt and bio tvp, its not very optional and i think the real solution of this is to buff mech and nerf marauders, probably gonna take some patches to make this work tho since its a big change
On April 04 2010 23:22 DeMusliM wrote:
and no, the reason i kept his strategy a secret was he's in zotac today - i don't want to fumble his chances by blowing my mouth off. It's just respect, not cowardness.
Bischu - just beat MorroW, i wasn't lieing about his strategy being good, and yet simple ;S
i lost because im sick and i didnt practice much at all this week, i probably woulda won if i just opened a normal marauder fe and kept on making marauders all game but i really dont see the fun in that :/
another reason im not playing much is just about what we talk about in this subject. its not very fun to play sc2 when tvz is imba and tvp is broken straight up mass marauder, only tvt is fun but it is too revolved around luck, just like the other mirror mus.
|
On April 04 2010 23:09 Haemonculus wrote:
What amazes me is that in BW, going infantry against protoss is weak simply because all protoss tech seems to counter it. Sure M&M will steamroll gateway units, but storm, archons, reavers, etc, all just crush bio. Terran adapted by going heavily mech in this matchup. Why do Terran players somehow feel like they should be able to spam infantry and have it be effective vs high tech protoss?
Psi storm in BW absolutely obliterates infantry. And then we get a psi storm nerf because of that in SC2? Meh, I'm ranting.
Marauders definitely need some sort of nerf, simply because they are more effective than seemingly ever other terran unit. Yes marauders are too strong, but we need to tweak the rest of the terran army as well. No army should be able to or forced to mass one very powerful unit.
agreed
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
