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On April 05 2010 00:16 SirNeb wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 00:14 Zergneedsfood wrote:The reason why these units were placed was because it changed the mindset away from Starcraft 1, and into a more "Starcraft 2" perspective. Eliminating these units would inherently bring us all back to Starcraft 1 in better graphics. hehe, that's up for discussion whether or not that's a good or bad thing. 
That actually makes sense. But I think that since Starcraft 2 is supposed to bring in a bunch of different communities (Command and Conquer, Civilization, Starcraft 1, Warcraft 3, the noobies that play WOW, oh wait what?), I think it's best to shift focus and have something that's reminiscent of Starcraft 1 in style, but different in terms of actual gameplay.
It gives us a breathe of fresh air to know that we're trying out something new and different. If we were too close to Starcraft 1, players would start moaning and groaning again over all the problems they had in the first game, which would be extremely boring. If anything, it's obvious that even though a lot of you guys (not me, I was a D+ noobie), were good Starcraft 1 players, the same mindset doesn't always apply.
In times like this, it's good to have general knowledge of gameplay, which is what Day[9] emphasizes a lot when he talks about general expansion tips, general strategy, macro, micro. These are all general but important tips because the beta is so complex and so strategically different in terms of how you control your troops.
But you know. If there are any players that are going to rock Starcraft 2, it better be us Starcraft 1 players. 
And to reply to Morrow's build that has a lot of marauders.....
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Well that blows my argument out of the water. I'm guessing then that an appropriate nerf would be to reduce Marauder range and downsize the amount of speed it decreases. Marauders do get a bunch of shots off before the opponent even comes knocking on your door.....
And I just tried the 1rax Marauder rush against a competent friend....it worked splendidly....
This puts everything into proportion haha.
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On April 04 2010 23:22 MeProU_Kor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 22:31 Spaylz wrote:On April 04 2010 22:27 MeProU_Kor wrote:
i dont know why people talk about marauders. i play P and T (more P) in platinum on place 8 and im happy if they go MMM+G, the first days i thought its very imbalanced but at that moment where you get used to feedback ghosts there is nothing and really nothing a bio army can do against a mixed p army. only problem i often see is that early marauders can put much pressure, but many people are just chrobo boosting their nexus all the time and the first unit they build is a immortal. seriously learn to use sentrys forcefield and delay the terran first, pick marauderes one by one that way and you will get in time your immortal + support units and will counter him.
@ all the whiners who say now "GHOST + EMP so imba and they destroy immortals" learn to split your armyat that moment where the terran has 1ghost you will have 2-3 immortals and he wont have a 2nd base and lategame PvT TvP is in favor of P by far. storm + colo own everything.
i dont get it why people always complain about P/T imbalance, if the only race that is imbalanced Z is. seriously they can expan where and when they want with their 300 mineral hatches and mapcontroll in the early game + they shit per hatch 7 larvas. the best is that they dont even need to be 1 base ahead like in sc1 so why are the hatches cheaper/faster than a cc/nexus?
T early game > P early Game but T late game < P late game
same like other matchups in sc1. That's very nice, but if the Terran has 3-4 Ghosts you're screwed. No matter how good you split your army he will EMP the crap out of you. So far the best counter I've seen is the strategy HasuObs uses. He builds Cannons and Pylons around Xel'Naga towers in order to have great mapcontrol and vision so he can use this advantage to Feedback Ghosts before they actually see what to EMP. But he still has to be very quick and that can't be applied to every game and to every position you can spawn in. so the terran has 4 ghosts but you dont have HTs/ranged Colossus/halucination? Stim is 150 Gas, Marauders are 25 Gas each and Ghost are 150 Gas each and the Ghostacademy is 50 Gas + techlabs each 25 Gas. you even dont need to be ahead of the T on bases like in sc1 so wait for your tech and expand then. i see many protoss expanding before a Terran with ~4 RAX and staying on 1 base and wonder why they get roflstomped. its because they are dumb and expand without a reason or a chance to hold the expo.
You wanna talk about gas cost ? Seriously ? Sentry is 100g each, HT is 150g each, Hallucination is another 100g for upgrade, Storm is 200g, Colossus is 200g each and the upgrade range is another 200g and each Stalker is 50g. So really, don't bring gas cost into this, because Protoss is probably the race that spends the most. Not to mention it doesn't change anything to the fact that EMP and Feedback have same range. You can scout with Hallucination, it will get destroyed immediatly and you will have 0.5 sec to Feedback, great. Ranged Colossus are no use without vision, same debate. You can use Observers (ANOTHER 100g) but there's scan, etc...
And I don't recall talking about expanding or holding expansions. Just the EMP/Feedback thing.
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On April 05 2010 00:04 micronesia wrote:
Admittedly I haven't read the whole thread, but between what I have read from this thread and several others I find it interesting that nobody was complaining about the power of marauders back before marines got nerfed... now that terrans can't rely on marines as much suddenly marauders are overpowered? Even if you are just saying terrans are lacking in diversity... well duh? They nerfed one of the two most common units... the reduction in diversity makes enemy air units that much more effective though.
I almost lost a tvz on desert oasis... I was keeping up in economy and the ground war, but he saved up larva, hid a spire somewhere, and massed up so many mutas that I was in sooo much trouble lol
Actually people have been complaining about Marauders for quite a while now. It's just that the recent patch has made the problem even worse now that 99% of T games are just massing Maruaders.
Still, I don't know why people are trying to dismiss us as whiners. Almost every single person who is "whining" has already stated that we want T mech to be buffed as well, and that unit diversity is a major problem in the Terran army. Making SC2 fun is the utmost priority, and that's just not gonna happen when every single Terran is massing Marauders/Medivacs every single game.
Pretty much all of the three "holy trinity" units (Roach, Marauder, Immortal) need to get nerfed in some way. It's just horrible how these units completely dominate all the matchups in SC2. 99% of SC2 strategies can basically be summed up as "Tech fast so I can counter the Marauder/Roach/Immortal as quickly as I can". SC2 certainly won't last long as an e-sport if these units go to retail the way they are now.
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The Roach and Marauder aren't necessarily bad ideas... I don't feel that they were designed as being hard counters in the first place. IMO they were probably just meant to be tier 1.5 tanky units because both Z and T lacked one in BW. I really feel that the problem with them is the way Blizzard tweaked their stats over time (made them too tanky). These units should stay because they can potentially bring interesting stuff to the game (Marauder kiting and Roach burrowing).
Also, I think that the Roach was moved back to Tier 1 so that it would be able to act as a ranged unit able to compete with the Zergling to fix ZvZ. Well thought out from Blizzard.
However, I feel that the Immortal with its current ''hard counter'' skill, the Hardened Shield, simply has no place in SC2. There was technically no need for Immortals since Mech already had two tactical counters in BW (lack of Mobility and friendly splash damage) that are still present in SC2 for Protoss to abuse. Because Blizz decided to create this massable, a-movable, boring unit, heavy Mech play is neglected by Terran and you can't mech unless you have enough ghosts.
If the original objective was to balance out Bio/Mech usage vs toss... I'm sorry to say that they failed.
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i think it can be summed up as this:
marauder, roach and immortal should be renamed mage, warrior and warlock. .
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i think it can be summed up as this:
marauder, roach and immortal should be renamed mage, warrior and warlock. .
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The Immortal is not as good as Marauder, period. In fact, PvT I usually only get one or two of them at most. Then I have to switch to Colossus, because after Terran gets EMP, the Immortal is as good as a piece of junk.
Furthermore, if you overcommit to immortals the Terran can easily get Banshees, and destroy the Protoss - they already have the Stargate up for the Medivacs, while the Protoss still have to build a Starport in order to counter those Banshees.
Neither are Roaches. Roaches are a good solid unit, kind of like Hydralisks, except they are lower in the tree. Three Marauders can destroy 6-8 Roaches with some micro.
Marauders can kill whatever they want without them having to even take a hit. Only way to stop a proxy barracks Marauder rush is by GGing.
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I think that a simple HP nerf would be sufficient (also what I wish they would've done to the Roach).
The more complex thing I wish they'd do would be the removal of the Reaper and Medivac followed by the reimplementation of the Medic as well as a significant HP nerf to the Marauder (as well as a possible range decrease from 6 to 5).
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On April 05 2010 01:01 Deviation wrote:
I think that a simple HP nerf would be sufficient (also what I wish they would've done to the Roach).
The more complex thing I wish they'd do would be the removal of the Reaper and Medivac followed by the reimplementation of the Medic as well as a significant HP nerf to the Marauder.
Might as well give Hellions mines and switch their attacks with the Marauder right? :D
But I think an HP nerf would actually be not that bad either.
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lol zeal/stalker/immortal rapes marauders so bad if you do it properly
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Haha. I have valid reasons for my opinions. On topic though, I think that the change would give a lot more flexibility in terms of balance changes.
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On April 04 2010 23:51 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 20:37 DeMusliM wrote:
Terran can't viably go Mech either, as much as they want to - Immortals counter that whole building single handedly, and with immortals popping out through chrono boost - terran would need alot more factories to even think about outmassing. Except Ghost counters Immortals extremely well. I don't get the people claiming Immortal counters Marauders. Immortal Health: 250 hp, 100 shields (hardned shield, which is instantly nuked by EMP) Damage: 20+30 Range: 5 Costs: 250+100 Tier: 2 Three Marauders Health: 375hp (which can be healed) Damage: 30+30 damage (with an extremely powerful slow). Do (basically) a massive 45+45 damage when stimmed (which is most of the time). Range: 6 Costs: 300 + 75 Tier: 1 There is no way for one Immortal to beat 3 microed Marauders, especially once they have stim, EMP or medivac support. And this is suppose to be the "counter" unit? The Marauders cost for cost have far more damage (double when stimmed), better range and move faster than the higher tier "counter" unit, Immortals, on top of that they can be healed and have one of the most powerful debuffs in the game as a passive. The cost and health is similar. Doesn't any Terran who is interested in the slightest bit of a balanced and interesting game see that the Marauder is way too powerful in its current form?
This is a ridiculous comparison. So 3 marauders, with micro, after an EMP, and with medivac support will beat an immortal. Why don't we add collossi and psi storm to the equation? Even without their shields, immortals still do fine against marauders, quite honestly. Protoss should be punished by EMP just as Terran should be punished by psi storm or colloxen.
Although I agree that marauders need some sort of change, I'm not sure I've heard a suggestion in this thread I really like yet. I suppose making the slow effect on their attack an upgrade available only after the factory would be ok, but only if reactor and marine buildtimes were brought back to a level that was a bit more sane, and terran metal received some much, much needed love. I think this could help unit diversity quite significantly.
Still, the fact that nearly every protoss unit by their very design hard-counters siege tanks will likely never make terran metal viable in TvP, save maybe the Thor (and I quite doubt that one). The lack of unit diversity isn't wholly the marauder's fault.
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I keep seeing a lot of people saying to nerf marauder and buff mech. I think this could be done by simply making the slow an upgrade and making helions do like 14 dmg with no bonus to light until you get the preigniter. The main reason mech fails is because helions are so bad vs armored units and you cant get enough tanks to deal with mass armored because of gas.
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There are 3 major problems with the marauder:
-They come out too fast. You can have your first one out well before P has a stalker, which they have to get because if you make a reaper and they have a zealot bad things happen. TvT you can't go straight to tanks even with a bunker because you can have like 8 maras when that tanks pops out. Not a fair fight even with walls/bunkers involved. TvZ isn't so much of a timing issue. Bunkers do fine vs roaches early anyways, and you only need like 1-2 maras to hold off quite a few roach with a wall. I don't think you need them as early as you get them.
-The slow is broken. There is no unit that can be micro'd effectively vs them before colossi, and even then you need range upgrade to really make them useful. 6 maras can kill like 50 roaches if you had the space to maneuver. Maras can run up and snipe tanks and as soon as 1 hit lands the tank is gone. Stalkers can't harass mara forces without taking losses, so their speed is worthless. Zealots just get kited around before charge so they're absolutely worthless too. Only force field on the sentry seems to be a viable counter to mara slow because you might be able to trap a couple.
-They cost way too little. Think about the marauder with NO upgrades and ignoring slow. It's still a unit that does 10+10 damage with 6 range and has decent speed and 125 hp. That, and it's produced from the earliest production structure for terran, so you have access to it automatically every game. I don't see how that unit can only cost 100/25. Now lets factor in the slow, stim, and healing from medivacs. We now have a unit that still costs 100/25, but attacks super fast, moves super fast, gets healed, and can't be retreated from. This sounds like a unit that should cost a lot more than it does.
Any nerf that the mara gets has to take into account these 3 things. Granted, it doesn't have to nerf all 3 things, but it has to balance it so that when all 3 are taken into account the mara remains viable but balanced.
Of course, if we nerf maras, we have to wonder what terran can do vs protoss. Marines and mech play are very viable vs zerg, and maras are only really used to kill roaches or as a tank against banelings, so I highly doubt their role will change in that matchup. Terran vs Terran obviously is balanced by definition, though nerfing the mara will increase the complexity of that matchup.
Obviously the biggest issue for mech right now is immortals vs tanks. With EMP, tanks actually do fairly well vs immortals, and once you get enough completely demolish immortal heavy armies. However, you can get immortals pretty quickly, and produce them ridiculously fast with chrono. There are several solutions that can help terran survive more easily vs immortals early on:
-Decrease tank build time (but this affects TvZ as well, so that's something to take into account).
-Increase immortal build time (I believe this is the best solution, as no 4 food unit should build faster than a stalker. It'd also help quell the stupidity that is the immortal push PvZ)
-Change hardened shields to take more damage (so they become more specialized anti heavy hitter units. Something along the lines of 20 damage. Again, this would help ZvP, though possibly screw it up completely as well.)
That's all I can think up right now. Hopefully this is some good food for thought.
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Okay i'm not new to this site, been reading articles and forum post in a long time, but haven't felt like posting anything before, since most of my opinions are shared by other people who already posted them.
But this post made me think, that there must be some other way to workout "balance" issues than this way. I know that posts and discussions like this often produce some good arguments, but it usually end up being mostly mindless criticism instead of constructive criticism, of both the game, and the posts.
So i got an idea of how to hopefully create a topic that will hopefully be a little more "constructive" (that being said without any hard feeling towards the people who posted in this topic, or the creator).
Anyways, my idea was to create a topic, were I start of by coming up with my own "patch notes" for the next patch, that I think would solve the problem with marauders, and only this problem, since people will end up discussing a lot of different thing otherwise  . Keep in mind though, that you can change other units than the marauder, as long it is relevant for solving the issue with the marauder.
You of course have to follow your "patch notes" up with argumentation.
The whole point of the topic would then be, that you're only allowed to reply in the post, if you are posting some arguments against the last replies patch notes, followed up by your own patch notes.
This of course requires some forum moderator help, but I think that we in the end would end up with "the theoretical perfect patch notes"
I of course can't create this topic, since i just registered, but i hope that somebody else would.
Anyways the changes i would make to fix the non diversity of the Terran army (the marauder spam issue) are:
* Decrease Marauder HP from 125 to 115.
For making it less of a tanking unit, i.e. more like other infantry units.
* Making the Marauder slow a researchable upgrade at the Tech Lap, for 100/100 and 60 secs. research time.
For making the marauder less powerful in the beginning, and thereby preventing the terran from being able to expand way earlier than the other two races, and most importantly making the marauder a support unit that you'll only need when your main army need slowing support, i.e. making the marauder a tactical choice.
* Making the slow a 5 secs. cooldown.
Just for the sake of overall balance.
* Change build time of both reactor and Tech Lab to 35 seconds.
For the purpos of seeing more marines.
* Increase Siege Tank HP from 150 to 160, and the armor from 1 to 2.
* Increase Thor damage from 45 to 50, and the armor from 1 to 2.
For making Mech build more viable.
* Decrease Roach armor from 2 to 1, and damage from 16 to 15.
* Decrease Immortal damage vs. armored units to +25 instead of +30.
For the terran to yet stand a chance after marauder nerf.
So these changes are what i feel would force terran players to diversify their army, and choosing other builds than just the bio, and changing the bio build to be M&M&M instead of just M or M&M, and yet have the terran player stand a chance.
Anyways, hopes that someone like my idea, and creates a topic with the rules described, if not, well no matter, now you then got my opinion on the marauder at least.
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On April 05 2010 01:18 Slurgi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 23:51 Paladia wrote:On April 04 2010 20:37 DeMusliM wrote:
Terran can't viably go Mech either, as much as they want to - Immortals counter that whole building single handedly, and with immortals popping out through chrono boost - terran would need alot more factories to even think about outmassing. Except Ghost counters Immortals extremely well. I don't get the people claiming Immortal counters Marauders. Immortal Health: 250 hp, 100 shields (hardned shield, which is instantly nuked by EMP) Damage: 20+30 Range: 5 Costs: 250+100 Tier: 2 Three Marauders Health: 375hp (which can be healed) Damage: 30+30 damage (with an extremely powerful slow). Do (basically) a massive 45+45 damage when stimmed (which is most of the time). Range: 6 Costs: 300 + 75 Tier: 1 There is no way for one Immortal to beat 3 microed Marauders, especially once they have stim, EMP or medivac support. And this is suppose to be the "counter" unit? The Marauders cost for cost have far more damage (double when stimmed), better range and move faster than the higher tier "counter" unit, Immortals, on top of that they can be healed and have one of the most powerful debuffs in the game as a passive. The cost and health is similar. Doesn't any Terran who is interested in the slightest bit of a balanced and interesting game see that the Marauder is way too powerful in its current form? This is a ridiculous comparison. So 3 marauders, with micro, after an EMP, and with medivac support will beat an immortal. No, 3 Marauders beats 1 Immortal even without medivac, emp or stim (just some micro). However, once you have any of those its not even a close fight anymore. Even with just stim its rediculous, the Marauder then has double the damage of an immortal.
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I really don't follow when people say something like "the marauder is a boring unit". What makes it boring? How was the dragoon more interesting? The goliath? The dragoon was used alot in Sc1, the backbone of a protoss army in many matchups, like the marauder now. Would you say the dragoon is a boring unit?
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On April 05 2010 01:18 Bigpon86 wrote:
I keep seeing a lot of people saying to nerf marauder and buff mech. I think this could be done by simply making the slow an upgrade and making helions do like 14 dmg with no bonus to light until you get the preigniter. The main reason mech fails is because helions are so bad vs armored units and you cant get enough tanks to deal with mass armored because of gas.
I think you got it wrong.
Hellions job is to prevent the fast, light units from getting into range. They don't need to be good versus armored because tanks are already good versus armored.
The problem in mech versus P is that Immortals own every terran mech unit out there. Not only they take little damage but they do an insane amount of damage to armored units. Terran is forced to get ghosts which is a huge investment of gas (considering you are massing other gas heavy units) but most importantly time... time which lets Protoss take more bases.
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On April 05 2010 01:42 heyitsme wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 01:18 Bigpon86 wrote:
I keep seeing a lot of people saying to nerf marauder and buff mech. I think this could be done by simply making the slow an upgrade and making helions do like 14 dmg with no bonus to light until you get the preigniter. The main reason mech fails is because helions are so bad vs armored units and you cant get enough tanks to deal with mass armored because of gas. The problem in mech versus P is that Immortals own every terran mech unit out there. Ghosts?
The problem is right now that the Terran doesn't even have to use things like EMP to win, they can just mass Marauders and a-move.
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Ghosts are not factory units
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EPT
