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Honestly after reading half this thread, I think most of the problems that are being talked about on this thread stem from the +armoured of immortals and marauders, and little else.
Due to the +armoured, both marauders and immortals end up countering far higher tech units on all races (ultras, tanks, collosus, etc.) cost efficiently. Since they also counter roaches, that caused blizzard to make roaches retardedly strong to compensate, so that basically if you aren't using a hard counter to them, you'll be run over by them.
They need to drastically nerf +armoured on marauders and immortals and then downgrade the shit out of roach (by at least making them require 2 supply). I think if they did that it would fix a lot of the problems people are having with all of these units, and it would make every matchup more fun!
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United States24751 Posts
On April 05 2010 01:44 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 01:42 heyitsme wrote:On April 05 2010 01:18 Bigpon86 wrote:
I keep seeing a lot of people saying to nerf marauder and buff mech. I think this could be done by simply making the slow an upgrade and making helions do like 14 dmg with no bonus to light until you get the preigniter. The main reason mech fails is because helions are so bad vs armored units and you cant get enough tanks to deal with mass armored because of gas. The problem in mech versus P is that Immortals own every terran mech unit out there. Ghosts? The problem is right now that the Terran doesn't even have to use things like EMP to win, they can just mass Marauders and a-move.
This is an exaggeration. Unless you are already better than your opponent you can't just a-move marauders.
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On April 05 2010 01:44 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 01:42 heyitsme wrote:
The problem in mech versus P is that Immortals own every terran mech unit out there. Ghosts? The problem is right now that the Terran doesn't even have to use things like EMP to win, they can just mass Marauders and a-move.
Thanks for the misquote. Read the post entirely and you'll see that I already replied to your comment.
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On April 05 2010 01:42 heyitsme wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 01:18 Bigpon86 wrote:
I keep seeing a lot of people saying to nerf marauder and buff mech. I think this could be done by simply making the slow an upgrade and making helions do like 14 dmg with no bonus to light until you get the preigniter. The main reason mech fails is because helions are so bad vs armored units and you cant get enough tanks to deal with mass armored because of gas. I think you got it wrong. Hellions job is to prevent the fast, light units from getting into range. They don't need to be good versus armored because tanks are already good versus armored. The problem in mech versus P is that Immortals own every terran mech unit out there. Not only they take little damage but they do an insane amount of damage to armored units. Terran is forced to get ghosts which is a huge investment of gas (considering you are massing other gas heavy units) but most importantly time... time which lets Protoss take more bases.
My point was that you cant mass mech without building a ton of helions because of gas. And since helions suck so bad vs everything but light its so hard to make a decent army vs armored heavy armies.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On April 04 2010 23:09 Haemonculus wrote:
What amazes me is that in BW, going infantry against protoss is weak simply because all protoss tech seems to counter it. Sure M&M will steamroll gateway units, but storm, archons, reavers, etc, all just crush bio. Terran adapted by going heavily mech in this matchup. Why do Terran players somehow feel like they should be able to spam infantry and have it be effective vs high tech protoss?
Psi storm in BW absolutely obliterates infantry. And then we get a psi storm nerf because of that in SC2? Meh, I'm ranting.
Marauders definitely need some sort of nerf, simply because they are more effective than seemingly ever other terran unit. Yes marauders are too strong, but we need to tweak the rest of the terran army as well. No army should be able to or forced to mass one very powerful unit.
Well, something to keep in mind is that in SC1, Tanks sort of destroy goons... In SC2? Blinking stalkers are a complete nightmare for siege tanks.
In SC1, you can spend all your minerals on more factories and vultures, and they are actually sort of useful vs goons with their mines and mass of attacks.
SC2? Sure, they rape zealots really, really hard but blinking stalkers once again rape them - you can't even use your speed advantage.
So, you can go some sort of super gas heavy tank/hellion/ghost/raven mix and turtle until you have enough gas bases to support it... but I think any early push just gets eaten by blink/immortals.
Basically, give me back spider mines and I'll take any nerf to marauders you want.
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On April 05 2010 01:53 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 23:09 Haemonculus wrote:
What amazes me is that in BW, going infantry against protoss is weak simply because all protoss tech seems to counter it. Sure M&M will steamroll gateway units, but storm, archons, reavers, etc, all just crush bio. Terran adapted by going heavily mech in this matchup. Why do Terran players somehow feel like they should be able to spam infantry and have it be effective vs high tech protoss?
Psi storm in BW absolutely obliterates infantry. And then we get a psi storm nerf because of that in SC2? Meh, I'm ranting.
Marauders definitely need some sort of nerf, simply because they are more effective than seemingly ever other terran unit. Yes marauders are too strong, but we need to tweak the rest of the terran army as well. No army should be able to or forced to mass one very powerful unit. Well, something to keep in mind is that in SC1, Tanks sort of destroy goons... In SC2? Blinking stalkers are a complete nightmare for siege tanks. In SC1, you can spend all your minerals on more factories and vultures, and they are actually sort of useful vs goons with their mines and mass of attacks. SC2? Sure, they rape zealots really, really hard but blinking stalkers once again rape them - you can't even use your speed advantage. So, you can go some sort of super gas heavy tank/hellion/ghost/raven mix and turtle until you have enough gas bases to support it... but I think any early push just gets eaten by blink/immortals. Basically, give me back spider mines and I'll take any nerf to marauders you want.
I would much prefer the spider mines really, i feel that PvT is all camping in your base and massing *something* up - because if you poke your head out with a few units in the beginning there's no retreating from marauders, you're guaranteed to be punished by the early interest due to some of your units being picked off because of the slowing effect.
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On April 05 2010 01:53 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 23:09 Haemonculus wrote:
What amazes me is that in BW, going infantry against protoss is weak simply because all protoss tech seems to counter it. Sure M&M will steamroll gateway units, but storm, archons, reavers, etc, all just crush bio. Terran adapted by going heavily mech in this matchup. Why do Terran players somehow feel like they should be able to spam infantry and have it be effective vs high tech protoss?
Psi storm in BW absolutely obliterates infantry. And then we get a psi storm nerf because of that in SC2? Meh, I'm ranting.
Marauders definitely need some sort of nerf, simply because they are more effective than seemingly ever other terran unit. Yes marauders are too strong, but we need to tweak the rest of the terran army as well. No army should be able to or forced to mass one very powerful unit. Well, something to keep in mind is that in SC1, Tanks sort of destroy goons... In SC2? Blinking stalkers are a complete nightmare for siege tanks. In SC1, you can spend all your minerals on more factories and vultures, and they are actually sort of useful vs goons with their mines and mass of attacks. SC2? Sure, they rape zealots really, really hard but blinking stalkers once again rape them - you can't even use your speed advantage. So, you can go some sort of super gas heavy tank/hellion/ghost/raven mix and turtle until you have enough gas bases to support it... but I think any early push just gets eaten by blink/immortals. Basically, give me back spider mines and I'll take any nerf to marauders you want.
yeah, i missed the balance od sc1, but we are in beta stage, maybe thinking in add or remove units its not insane. personally, i think terrans are having bad times and marauders are the only option to survive. I think that marauders, immortals and roaches are the core of the problem. Many oool units are being nearly useless right now.
and.. i hate hellion!! its so ugly and dumb! XD
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I think an elegant solution is to switch the roles of the void ray and the banshee, minus the cloaking. The banshee is now relatively weak niche unit specializing in taking out buildings and taking advantage of lack of AA (makes sense with cloak too), dieing quickly to any AA at all (Effective against masses of light units, hardcountered by stalkers, parralelling the void ray being hardcountered by marines), while the voidray can now hold its own as a powerful ATG unit and doesn't die in two shots to marines, and requires a signficant tech switch in order to kill.
The voidray can basically be the same thing except have bonus versus bio, albeit less signficant, and have a lower target switching time. The banshee fires "cluster missles" which are good versus masses of light units, and buildings (Because all the cluster missles will hit it due to sheer size).
Marauders don't attack air.
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The unit combo that should counter marauders in PvT, is Zealot+Sentry. They both have light armor, guardian shield lets zealots take 7 damage to their health per marauder attack, and force field helps you sandwich marauders so they can't run away.
What's missing from the equation, IMO, is the suggestion I made in this thread: make the marauders' attacks root them in place for the duration of their attack cooldown. If you give marauders a move command after an attack, this would make them start moving only when their next attack is ready- they'd have to sacrifice damage in exchange for mobility. Add zealot charge and protoss might be able to tackle mass marauders (against bigger numbers, add psi storm / colossi).
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I dont have beta but ive been watching a lot of games and have played several games with my friends account.
I was and am still amazed at how quickly marauders roll zealots, stalkers and sentries.
I think there are a number of problems which i will give my opinions on how to fix. Some of them will be extreme, but i hope at least that it will get people thinking:
1) Marauder needs to be nerfed somehow.
Huxil summarized some of what i was thinking:
* Decrease Marauder HP from 125 to 115. (I would say 100)
For making it less of a tanking unit, i.e. more like other infantry units.
* Making the Marauder slow a researchable upgrade at the Tech Lap, for 100/100 and 60 secs. research time.
For making the marauder less powerful in the beginning, and thereby preventing the terran from being able to expand way earlier than the other two races, and most importantly making the marauder a support unit that you'll only need when your main army need slowing support, i.e. making the marauder a tactical choice.
* Change build time of both reactor and Tech Lab to 35 seconds.
For the purpos of seeing more marines.
To this i would add:
>the idea of making their attack slightly weaker, but giving them an AoE ability to slow (upgraded). So while they would still hit only one unit, they would slow every unit around that unit for a brief while. They could fiddle with the numbers, maybe making it only a 30% slow (even the odds against zergs on creep). It should be on a cooldown.
>Remove slow entirely
>Reduce range and/or speed and/or firing rate
>Remove stim
Then, if you nerf marauder, you need to compensate in other areas for terran.
I would suggest this:
>Making the tank a little buffer in terms of HP and armor
>If its non-siege range isnt 7 (i think it is 7) make it 7, make it have a fairly quick attack rate with a flat 10-12 damage.
Why? Because then it would allow the tank to at least take on the immortal. My reasoning is that since the tank has two modes, they can use this fact to not only make tank mode more useful, but also minimize the hardcounter aspect of the immortal. I propose that the tank would still lose in terms of cost, but would at least be able to stand its ground. With the increased cost and pop, the tank couldnt be massed, but it would give terrans a justification for building them. It would also add interesting micro choices (do i leave tanks in siege mode to kill zeals or do i make some of them tanks to bring down imm shields faster?)
>They could even give them extra hp or armor in tank mode, but i think this would overlap with the thor a bit
Immortals deserve a nerf somehow, but i dont really know exactly what. Im almost of the opinion that they should have energy for the hardened shields...
>If they decided to do that, they would have to change ghost EMP.
In my opinion, they could make it eliminate all shields, but only 100 energy (instead of 100 shields, all energy) so it wouldnt be so rapistly strong against other casters. EMP basically already eliminates all shields, and losing all caster energy instantly in AoE is rather uncalled for. It also makes the unique expensive and slow mothership completely useless in TvP.
I dont really know what to do with roaches. I hate those sons of bitches worse than anything, even marauders (which actually look kind of fun to use). Immortals seem delicate to change, so idk exactly what to do. I would hope to see stalkers buffed in some way, and to see reapers used more mid-game
Fun Change for no reason: :D
Scrap hellions, replace with something else,
Give reapers flamethrowers (fuck yea!) at 4 range with a quick animation (like they have now). Make them rape light units :D
Make D8s a bit like spider mines:
>10hp, not cloaked, but also lowest targetting priority
>3 per reaper (free)
>once you put all 3 down, the icon changes into a "detonate" button. After 2 seconds it will flash red a few times, then explode for small/medium AoE damage, 20+40 vs armored (needs balance, obviously)
If the reaper responsible for the mines dies, they become useless and disappear after a few seconds.
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On April 05 2010 02:04 Zato-1 wrote:What's missing from the equation, IMO, is the suggestion I made in this thread: make the marauders' attacks root them in place for the duration of their attack cooldown. If you give marauders a move command after an attack, this would make them start moving only when their next attack is ready- they'd have to sacrifice damage in exchange for mobility. Add zealot charge and protoss might be able to tackle mass marauders (against bigger numbers, add psi storm / colossi).
hate that in evry way.
we need more stuff that can be microed nicely and not make micro even less appealing/possible.
there is enough stupid "aclick and watch how the battle goes" anyways in sc2. this would only make it worse.
not to mention HEAVILY nerf T vs zerg esp early game.
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On April 05 2010 02:01 Half wrote:
I think an elegant solution is to switch the roles of the void ray and the banshee, minus the cloaking. The banshee is now relatively weak niche unit specializing in taking out buildings and taking advantage of lack of AA (makes sense with cloak too), dieing quickly to any AA at all (Effective against masses of light units, hardcountered by stalkers, parralelling the void ray being hardcountered by marines), while the voidray can now hold its own as a powerful ATG unit and doesn't die in two shots to marines, and requires a signficant tech switch in order to kill.
The voidray can basically be the same thing except have bonus versus bio, albeit less signficant, and have a lower target switching time. The banshee fires "cluster missles" which are good versus masses of light units, and buildings (Because all the cluster missles will hit it due to sheer size).
Marauders don't attack air.
so you want to take the (imo) 2nd most used T unit away to make the most used unit less usedand for exchange you give a unit that sucks against all unarmored (T1) units?
sounds really stupid and makes no sense.
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Basically, give me back spider mines and I'll take any nerf to marauders you want.
iirc reapers had something like spider mines in the early stages of sc2.Why not bring them back to the game?
This would give reapers some more dimension and add to their coolness factor
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Another drastic proposal:
1. Remove Marauders.
2. Remove Reaper's special building attack.
3. Give Reapers a special ability: altered Spider Mines (grenades?) that they throw. These do extra damage versus armored and have a slowing effect (different from D-8 charges in that you can't target buildings with them).
4. ??????
5. Profit.
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Some thoughts/ideas, no complete balance concept:
Increase Marauder base damage (12 - 14 would be a good range), reduce rate of fire. This will specifically weaken them against Immortals.
Lower Marauder range, add range upgrade. This will make stalkers stronger in early game.
Reduce Marauder and Roach HP by 10-20, reduce Immortal bonus damage by 5-10.
Reactor build time back to normal. With the stronger stalker and the other terran earlygame nerfs this shouldn't be an issue.
Don't mess with Roach damage or armor. If roaches with +1 can't 2 shot zerglings then zvz will be all about 6 pool and 14 hatch 13 pool into mass lings. Less armor means a huge damage buff for lings. A HP nerf on roaches will still make lings stronger against roaches without dooming zvz by default. Ya roach v roach isn't the most exciting gameplan for most people, but a HP nerf on roaches has the potential to make both roach and ling openings viable. An attack ratio nerf for roaches also is viable but they already attack so slowly...
Don't buff stalkers, nerf other units. Stalkers probably are ok right now. In certain pvz builds they are extremely hard to deal with. Earlier blink together with hallucinated air units would be insane with the current stalkers.
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Metal would be viable if tanks dealt more damage and had more hp, and hellions did anything against usual toss unit composition. Some sort of Hellion/Tank/Ghost composition.
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Just curious what the OP's point of this thread is. I see that you are saying that terrans are forced into rauders and this leads to a very unexciting game. If this is the case then I think 90% of the replies are off base with the, 'slow effect is OP' and 'take away stim' type of comments. I play terran in 1v1 plat div 19 and TvP is my hardest MU, partially due to stalker/colli, and I find most responses to be a lot of bluu bluu bluu QQ theorycraft. Anyway, I partially agree with OP that rauders are snoozefest but I would like to address most of the replies in saying, rauders havn't been nerfed in the past 4 patches so they might not be as IMBA as ya'll cry about.
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On April 05 2010 02:11 MeProU_Kor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 02:01 Half wrote:
I think an elegant solution is to switch the roles of the void ray and the banshee, minus the cloaking. The banshee is now relatively weak niche unit specializing in taking out buildings and taking advantage of lack of AA (makes sense with cloak too), dieing quickly to any AA at all (Effective against masses of light units, hardcountered by stalkers, parralelling the void ray being hardcountered by marines), while the voidray can now hold its own as a powerful ATG unit and doesn't die in two shots to marines, and requires a signficant tech switch in order to kill.
The voidray can basically be the same thing except be less strong versus armored and less suck versus bio, and have a lower target switching time. The banshee fires "cluster missles" which are good versus masses of light units, and buildings (Because all the cluster missles will hit it due to sheer size).
Marauders don't attack air. so you want to take the (imo) 2nd most used T unit away to make the most used unit less usedand for exchange you give a unit that sucks against all unarmored (T1) units? sounds really stupid and makes no sense.
Yes. How is it stupid? Terran have never really been about air superiority anyway. SC1 had protoss and zerglings with strong air, mutas and corsairs, with terran the worst, wraiths having a very niche role in special openings to hunt overlords.
It would hugely discourage massing only marauder if the voidray got the relative strength of a banshee, able to hold its own against marines. Every other unit except the maraunder (and banshee I guess) would see more use.
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On April 05 2010 01:46 onmach wrote:
Honestly after reading half this thread, I think most of the problems that are being talked about on this thread stem from the +armoured of immortals and marauders, and little else.
Due to the +armoured, both marauders and immortals end up countering far higher tech units on all races (ultras, tanks, collosus, etc.) cost efficiently. Since they also counter roaches, that caused blizzard to make roaches retardedly strong to compensate, so that basically if you aren't using a hard counter to them, you'll be run over by them.
They need to drastically nerf +armoured on marauders and immortals and then downgrade the shit out of roach (by at least making them require 2 supply). I think if they did that it would fix a lot of the problems people are having with all of these units, and it would make every matchup more fun!
this is the truth.
immortals, marauders and roaches are 'broken' at the moment.
totally nerf the '+damage vs armor' on both immortal and marauder - they still have tasty damage but they're no longer hard counters. then to fix the roach, inc supply to 2.
hard counters are such a load of rubbish and these 3 units are at the centre of it.
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I wouldn't have a problem with a Marauder nerf if for instance they also buffed Terran Mech. I'd be fine with something like:
Crucio Siege Tank:
• +15 HP
• +1 Armor
• Gas price reduced to 100
• Build time reduced to 40 seconds
Seriously, as it is now, the tank is worthless, and the Marauder fills that niche. If you nerf the Marauder you better buff the Siege Tank.
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EPT
