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It seems to me that, while it is very difficult (if not impossible) to tell whether any particular unit is imbalanced or not, something we can pick up on here is simply the fact that a lot of people are not finding the marauder any fun to play with or against.
This could be due to its visual design, its conceptual suitability within the fiction, or its actual stats as a unit (and subsequent lack of diversity, as pointed out above).
Time can only really tell as to whether people will develop new tactics which don't rely on the marauder, but at the moment that isn't really even the point. People are not finding them fun to play with - this is something Blizzard should take note of.
The way it seems, then, is this: either Blizzard needs to wait and see what happens with people's play style (maybe even do some agressive testing themselves as to whether there is a suitable tactical workaround in the game itself), or they need to change the situation in some way.
So, to reiterate, we can't tell if they need a nerf or even how to nerf them, only that people have a problem, and that problem is generally expressed as "they arn't fun to play with or against". The rest is up to Blizzard to sort out!
Although that's not to say that musing over how one might change the unit isn't interesting or fun, I just wanted to say how I saw things..
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one reply and we are back into the stone age.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 04 2010 22:55 DeMusliM wrote:
Hmm, i dunno why i got attacked for saying what i said, - this is a forum after all and a "serious discussion" about marauders. I set forward a valuable point i think, if you nerf marauders you have to change alot of other stuff too - be that buffing other terran units, or nerfing alot of protoss/zerg units - it's very fiddly. As i said previously - the only viable unit early/mid game for terran vs protoss ground is marauders - it's the only one that can survive the brute force that is protoss (now i'm not talking imbalance here, before i get any other flame thrown my way) - it's as simple as that, terran have relatively few choices in how they can react to protoss early which is why your seeing next to no diversity in terran play.
I edited your first post into the OP because I thought it was excellent. The foremost issue is the lack of diversity - balance can be worked out imo.
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marauders just should not be armored high-hitpoint units. they are infantry, not tanks for gods sake. either it is a battlesuit, which would belong to the factory, or its an infantry unit and shouldn't have tank stats. it's just bad design, really. (as with many of the armor-type and bonus damage allocations.)
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On April 04 2010 20:37 DeMusliM wrote:
Terran can't viably go Mech either, as much as they want to - Immortals counter that whole building single handedly, and with immortals popping out through chrono boost - terran would need alot more factories to even think about outmassing. Except Ghost counters Immortals extremely well.
I don't get the people claiming Immortal counters Marauders.
Immortal
Health: 250 hp, 100 shields (hardned shield, which is instantly nuked by EMP)
Damage: 20+30
Range: 5
Costs: 250+100
Tier: 2
Three Marauders
Health: 375hp (which can be healed)
Damage: 30+30 damage (with an extremely powerful slow). Do (basically) a massive 45+45 damage when stimmed (which is most of the time).
Range: 6
Costs: 300 + 75
Tier: 1
There is no way for one Immortal to beat 3 microed Marauders, especially once they have stim, EMP or medivac support. And this is suppose to be the "counter" unit? The Marauders cost for cost have far more damage (double when stimmed), better range and move faster than the higher tier "counter" unit, Immortals, on top of that they can be healed and have one of the most powerful debuffs in the game as a passive. The cost and health is similar.
Doesn't any Terran who is interested in the slightest bit of a balanced and interesting game see that the Marauder is way too powerful in its current form?
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On April 04 2010 23:46 KULA_u wrote:
marauders just should not be armored high-hitpoint units. they are infantry, not tanks for gods sake. either it is a battlesuit, which would belong to the factory, or its an infantry unit and shouldn't have tank stats. it's just bad design, really. (as with many of the armor-type and bonus damage allocations.)
Please, don't start the "omg its not realistic" thing again. Hellions come from the fac and they're no tank-units...
I think when marauders get nerfed hellions and reapers need to be changed. Especially the reaper is purely a harass-unit which becomes useless in mid/late game. A bit the same for hellions but they can be pretty good vs some unit compositions mid/late game. A tweak to the reaper and hellion should make up for the marauder change.
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how are you going to open both ghost and mech...
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I actually agree with Plexa on the idea of diversity, but ONLY in terms of higher leveled players that are using these strategies the most. A lot of higher level Terran player has been made up of Marauder only play. Still, even though my TvP isn't astounding, I've incorporated marines as a primary meat shield in my army.
But I honestly don't think that Marauders should be nerfed. Maybe the amount that they decrease speed should be nerfed a bit, but like DeMusliM said, it's really all Terran really has. And to anybody in the thread that says that Marauders counter everything, that's just B.S. Marauders don't counter temps, nor do they counter collosus in any sense. If you're losing, it's because your unit composition is set up wrong and you didn't have the micro needed to handle Marauders.
And if you think about it, TvP is VERY reminiscent of TvZ in Starcraft One. So let's see what units you had in SC1 Eh? And then let's talk about diversity.
Marines.
Firebats.
Medics.
Tanks.
Science Vessels....
Ok. So how about TvP in Starcraft Two?
Marines (Eh. You can toss this aside)
Marauders
Medivacs
(Sadly, less tanks)
Ravens
Vikings
Ghosts
Who says that there's no diversity here? O_o I mean, granted, some people are just opting for these all-in marauder builds, but that's only a select few games out of thousands in the beta. If you're asking me, if there's a lack of diversity in ANY matchup, it would HAVE to be TvP.
Tanks.
Vultures.
MAYBE Goliaths......MAYBE Science Vessels.
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I agree with all of you but we see mass marauder because most of ppl conplain about mass marine. Now with the nerf on them we only one way to go to still competivly with the other race.
Even with a buff for the mech, mech will still nothing against toss because of the imortal who do 50 dmg on a tank and receive almost nothing unless with obs and if you go mech you won't have that much of gas for some ghost
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On April 04 2010 22:32 Bash wrote:
I am completely flabbergasted by the things some people spout in this thread, I mean we're in beta, we should try to move the game into a direction which is the most enjoyable for all sides, it's not about trying to preserve your own retarded advantage in some area, nor should you be trying to sway people's opinions so that one side gets either unjust buffs or nerfs (which actually happened to toss already).
There are so many people in this thread arguing AGAINST changing the dynamic of the terran army away from the 1-unit-to-rule-them-all that terran is right now. They would literally rather have 1 overpowered unit that requires little skill to use to completely overpower most everything else than a balanced army composition, and what is their argument? It's because apparently protoss had it so easy in BW and only needed to build one unit. This is so bewildering to me I'm beginning to think I'm not on TL at all but on the battle.net forums, not only is that statement grossly untrue, but it also has nothing to do with the subject at hand which is fucking Starcraft 2!
All the while you are complaining about how useless the other terran stuff is and just violently lashing out at the people who seek to improve the game through discussion to "work around" your imbalanced and monotonously broken race because you'd rather stay in your rut of pure marauders than have your race rebalanced in some way.
For the record I think there are severe problems with the way the zerg army works as well, and while protoss is clearly the most "whole" at the moment (I doubt anyone is going to argue against the fact that the typical P army composition is the most interesting and varied at the moment), it still has some ways to go before I'd call it ready for launch. What I'm arguing here is that people are so unwilling to tackle the issues that plague the game because they've quickly learned to abuse them and don't want to let go of their little advantages and this needs to change, at least on these forums if nowhere else.
On a side note I really think this forum needs to be drastically more strict in it's banning policy regarding pure, unadultared idiocy so that the SC2 forum doesn't get even more out of hand that it is already.
This is by far one of the best and truest posts in this discussion.
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On April 04 2010 23:55 Zergneedsfood wrote:I actually agree with Plexa on the idea of diversity, but ONLY in terms of higher leveled players that are using these strategies the most. A lot of higher level Terran player has been made up of Marauder only play. Still, even though my TvP isn't astounding, I've incorporated marines as a primary meat shield in my army. But I honestly don't think that Marauders should be nerfed. Maybe the amount that they decrease speed should be nerfed a bit, but like DeMusliM said, it's really all Terran really has. And to anybody in the thread that says that Marauders counter everything, that's just B.S. Marauders don't counter temps, nor do they counter collosus in any sense. If you're losing, it's because your unit composition is set up wrong and you didn't have the micro needed to handle Marauders. And if you think about it, TvP is VERY reminiscent of TvZ in Starcraft One. So let's see what units you had in SC1 Eh? And then let's talk about diversity. Marines. Firebats. Medics. Tanks. Science Vessels.... Ok. So how about TvP in Starcraft Two? Marines (Eh. You can toss this aside) Marauders Medivacs (Sadly, less tanks) Ravens Vikings Ghosts Who says that there's no diversity here? O_o I mean, granted, some people are just opting for these all-in marauder builds, but that's only a select few games out of thousands in the beta. If you're asking me, if there's a lack of diversity in ANY matchup, it would HAVE to be TvP. Tanks. Vultures. MAYBE Goliaths......MAYBE Science Vessels.
what i do in sc2 tvp
marauder fe
more rax more marauders
etc
then about 9 rax pumping marauders
only marauders
scan to see if he make void ray, ok no
attack, win
it works better than anything, which i find very sad. been able to win many top tier zvt gamers like this too with more success. its ridiculous tt
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On April 04 2010 22:32 Bash wrote:
I am completely flabbergasted by the things some people spout in this thread, I mean we're in beta, we should try to move the game into a direction which is the most enjoyable for all sides, it's not about trying to preserve your own retarded advantage in some area, nor should you be trying to sway people's opinions so that one side gets either unjust buffs or nerfs (which actually happened to toss already).
There are so many people in this thread arguing AGAINST changing the dynamic of the terran army away from the 1-unit-to-rule-them-all that terran is right now. They would literally rather have 1 overpowered unit that requires little skill to use to completely overpower most everything else than a balanced army composition, and what is their argument? It's because apparently protoss had it so easy in BW and only needed to build one unit. This is so bewildering to me I'm beginning to think I'm not on TL at all but on the battle.net forums, not only is that statement grossly untrue, but it also has nothing to do with the subject at hand which is fucking Starcraft 2!
All the while you are complaining about how useless the other terran stuff is and just violently lashing out at the people who seek to improve the game through discussion to "work around" your imbalanced and monotonously broken race because you'd rather stay in your rut of pure marauders than have your race rebalanced in some way.
For the record I think there are severe problems with the way the zerg army works as well, and while protoss is clearly the most "whole" at the moment (I doubt anyone is going to argue against the fact that the typical P army composition is the most interesting and varied at the moment), it still has some ways to go before I'd call it ready for launch. What I'm arguing here is that people are so unwilling to tackle the issues that plague the game because they've quickly learned to abuse them and don't want to let go of their little advantages and this needs to change, at least on these forums if nowhere else.
On a side note I really think this forum needs to be drastically more strict in it's banning policy regarding pure, unadultared idiocy so that the SC2 forum doesn't get even more out of hand that it is already.
I think that while your post is true, the only reason why it doesn't seem like it's TL is because we have a new influx of members, some of them aware of what TL is supposed to represent, others....not so much.
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United States24805 Posts
Admittedly I haven't read the whole thread, but between what I have read from this thread and several others I find it interesting that nobody was complaining about the power of marauders back before marines got nerfed... now that terrans can't rely on marines as much suddenly marauders are overpowered? Even if you are just saying terrans are lacking in diversity... well duh? They nerfed one of the two most common units... the reduction in diversity makes enemy air units that much more effective though.
I almost lost a tvz on desert oasis... I was keeping up in economy and the ground war, but he saved up larva, hid a spire somewhere, and massed up so many mutas that I was in sooo much trouble lol
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On April 04 2010 19:06 sleeepy wrote:
Before you consider nerfing marauders, realize that without maruaders terrans have nothing.
Which is why boosting something else T has or nerfing P was suggested.
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A lot of people talked about the balance between "The Trinity"(Roach, Immortals and Marauders). Let's theoretically remove those units from the game. I can't speak for other races since I'm a terran player so my bias is probably based on that too. This is how I see would affect the terran matchups.
TvZ: Terran doesn't need marauders when they see roaches. This allows more diversity for other strats given more tweaks to the game.
TvP: Terran can go mech without worrying about the immortals destroying tanks.
TvT: Mirror match but I personally think that marauders destroy tanks heavy game there too.
I mean I don't want to remove these units. But the idea's interesting to think about. Seriously, those units really do dictate your overall strategies really really early. The hard counters decide the tone of the game which destroy viability of different openings/strategies. This kind of leads to that perhaps hard counters should not exist early game or there should be something to discourage you from going that strategy, perhaps you will almost always lose to its counter if the opponent sees it coming.
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My suggestion:
Make Marauder slow a researchable ability, perhaps at the ebay and buff marines/reactor a little.
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On April 05 2010 00:10 SirNeb wrote:
A lot of people talked about the balance between "The Trinity"(Roach, Immortals and Marauders). Let's theoretically remove those units from the game. I can't speak for other races since I'm a terran player so my bias is probably based on that too. This is how I see would affect the terran matchups.
TvZ: Terran doesn't need marauders when they see roaches. This allows more diversity for other strats given more tweaks to the game.
TvP: Terran can go mech without worrying about the immortals destroying tanks.
TvT: Mirror match but I personally think that marauders destroy tanks heavy game there too.
I mean I don't want to remove these units. But the idea's interesting to think about. Seriously, those units really do dictate your overall strategies really really early. The hard counters decide the tone of the game which destroy viability of different openings/strategies. This kind of leads to that perhaps hard counters should not exist early game or there should be something to discourage you from going that strategy, perhaps you will almost always lose to its counter if the opponent sees it coming.
If you remove those units you inherently go back to Starcraft 1 strategy. TvZ would be almost a no brainer because Terran would go for some crazy reaper/marine strategy that rapes all light armored infantry, which is all what Zerg has until the midgame.
In TvT, you'd get TvT in Starcraft 1 all over again with medivacs and tanks because marines are unviable in the latter stages of the game.
And in TvP, you revert back to a tank/hellion/thor concept which is reminiscent of tank/vulture/goliath vs. zealot/staulker, maybe sentry/temp, which are almost exactly like Starcraft 1.
The reason why these units were placed was because it changed the mindset away from Starcraft 1, and into a more "Starcraft 2" perspective. Eliminating these units would inherently bring us all back to Starcraft 1 in better graphics.
Which is why I agree. These units are very important. lulz....sorry if I sound overly aggressive. :D
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On April 05 2010 00:14 Zergneedsfood wrote:The reason why these units were placed was because it changed the mindset away from Starcraft 1, and into a more "Starcraft 2" perspective. Eliminating these units would inherently bring us all back to Starcraft 1 in better graphics.
hehe, that's up for discussion whether or not that's a good or bad thing. 
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Having the slowing grenade on every shot of the Marauder AND coming as a base ability is just stupid.
Solutions:
1) have the upgrade researchable on the tech lab or engineering bay. This makes early games more interesting as the dynamics between units will shift once the slowing attack kicks in.
2) Have the slowing attack be an on/off ability for marauders. There should be a delay between switching it on and off (2 seconds?). If this isn't enough, make Marauders attack slightly slower while having easymode active.
3) Have the slowing grenade only work on biological units. This doesn't change the dynamic on TvZ, and it allows for immortal/stalker micro against the marauder.
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On April 05 2010 00:01 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 23:55 Zergneedsfood wrote:I actually agree with Plexa on the idea of diversity, but ONLY in terms of higher leveled players that are using these strategies the most. A lot of higher level Terran player has been made up of Marauder only play. Still, even though my TvP isn't astounding, I've incorporated marines as a primary meat shield in my army. But I honestly don't think that Marauders should be nerfed. Maybe the amount that they decrease speed should be nerfed a bit, but like DeMusliM said, it's really all Terran really has. And to anybody in the thread that says that Marauders counter everything, that's just B.S. Marauders don't counter temps, nor do they counter collosus in any sense. If you're losing, it's because your unit composition is set up wrong and you didn't have the micro needed to handle Marauders. And if you think about it, TvP is VERY reminiscent of TvZ in Starcraft One. So let's see what units you had in SC1 Eh? And then let's talk about diversity. Marines. Firebats. Medics. Tanks. Science Vessels.... Ok. So how about TvP in Starcraft Two? Marines (Eh. You can toss this aside) Marauders Medivacs (Sadly, less tanks) Ravens Vikings Ghosts Who says that there's no diversity here? O_o I mean, granted, some people are just opting for these all-in marauder builds, but that's only a select few games out of thousands in the beta. If you're asking me, if there's a lack of diversity in ANY matchup, it would HAVE to be TvP. Tanks. Vultures. MAYBE Goliaths......MAYBE Science Vessels. what i do in sc2 tvp marauder fe more rax more marauders etc then about 9 rax pumping marauders only marauders scan to see if he make void ray, ok no attack, win it works better than anything, which i find very sad. been able to win many top tier zvt gamers like this too with more success. its ridiculous tt
I think ppl should give credit to such comments from top progamers. They don't really often give comments about balance or nerfing.
If Morrow and 80% of this thread says that smth wrong with maradeurs then this might be true.
Terran game mechanics should be changed, this is ridiculous that it's best option is to spam one unit 
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EPT
