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On April 04 2010 21:11 lol.Froste wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 20:54 mgj wrote:Really interresting discussion. However i would appriciate if people were actually discussing the topic. On April 04 2010 19:12 bLah. wrote:
or just try playing terran, get into plat div and play vs tosses and you'll see that we don't really have easymode there. Grats, you are in platinium league. Who isn't? Someone please ban this idiot. He is not interrested in a discussion, he just want to use his rating as an argument. Thats some kind of professional retardation or something. lol way to overreact imo this is similar to the immortals not too long ago. basically terrans were having a huge problem with immortal rushes. protoss would just rush for immortals and kill the terran. it was out of this that the marauder and marine combo began to shine. now protoss is having problems with marauders. instead of trying to play the game and come up with a creative solution they scream imbalance. you silly protosses have gotten so used to simply A-moving your armys you have forgotten how to be creative! immortals are still extremely powerful. they do 50 damage FIFTY DAMAGE vs armored units. why arent you using them? because ghosts are EMPing your shields. high templars have an ability to kill a ghost instantly most of the time, its called feedback. SO why not get stalkers for your armys bulk, backedup by imortals which are backed up by HTs. why not throw in some DTs too. and while your at it you can get blink! and blink onto highground! while storming and using feedback. i know targeting those ghosts is hard but your costing the terran 150/150. it isnt going to be easy.
You sir are a moron. I haven't seen a single Protoss going for a one-unit army like Terrans do. Why ? Because they can't afford to. Protoss always diversify their army, always back up their Stalkers and Zealots with Sentries, Immortals and HT because they HAVE TO. Sorry if we're not able to win a game only massing Stalkers. And, although High Templars do have Feedback and it is really effective against Ghosts, it has the same range as EMP except EMP is an AoE while Feedback has to be clicked on a single unit, therefore the Protoss either has to chose his fights wisely where he can "outview" the Terran or he has to be twice as reactive.
So yes, Immortals are powerful, so is Storm. But a bunch of Stimpacked Marauders can easily dodge Storm and take like what... Maybe 20 to 30 damage tops which they instantly recover thanks to the Medivacs. I am really not routing against any nerf on Immortals, it might even be necessary like most Terrans claim, but don't act like Marauders can be countered by "backing up your army with HTs and DTs". This is the definition of imbalance, it isn't normal that in order to counter ONE single unit, one has to mass up 3 different ones. At some point, and like any other match-up, TvP becomes about skill, and when the T goes for a mass M&M, sadly, I feel like the Protoss has to play a lot better to win, and it shouldn't be that way.
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basically we have people trying to fine tune with a sledge hammer
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Not the biggest change, but perhaps the slow effect should disappear while stimmed? Would stop a bit of the kiting abuse.
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I still think shaving 25 HP is a better option than making slow down an ability that you research. Then just give tanks a good 180 HP and you're good to go. Seems like if you added slow down to tech lab you'd be a little cramped in researching both stim and slow down. Not to mention Immortal comes with a passive ability as well (Immortals are fine btw, their cost, supply, build time, and tech level justify their power).
Those points aside, I would take slow down at tech lab as a 2nd choice for nerf because i don't think it would upset overall game balance too much
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On April 04 2010 21:40 Kantutan wrote:
Not the biggest change, but perhaps the slow effect should disappear while stimmed? Would stop a bit of the kiting abuse.
This is actually quite smart, it's the Stimpack + Slow combination that makes the Marauders viable lategame. Making it so a Terran would have to chose between one or the other could change a lot without messing with the game's balance too much.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On April 04 2010 20:37 DeMusliM wrote:
weird that, that game got uploaded of me ;S
And the reason that marauders were beating ultras - my marauders were 3/3, and his ultras were like 0/2 - AND marauders are a counter unit to ultras ^^.
Btw i don't like the OP post, marauders 33 secs, immortals 40, stalkers 42 (alot less with warpgates), and stalkers also have technically 160 hp, with 80 of it regenable outside of combat - i did not know immortals built that quickly, that's abit insane,.
As for general imbalance whine about marauders vs P, i have played vs multiple good protoss players who have demolished the marauder fe strat, i've had more supply of marauders and zealots/sentries/stalkers walked over me (this 3-4 warpgate push strat).
The reason marauders are so commonly used right now vs P, is because NOTHING else is viable - if you consider marines, the amount of flat out counters they have now is ridiculous - Zealots/guardian shield/stalkers/collosus/HT's - the list goes on. Terran can't viably go Mech either, as much as they want to - Immortals counter that whole building single handedly, and with immortals popping out through chrono boost - terran would need alot more factories to even think about outmassing.
If you really wanna "nerf" marauders, you have to boost something else, or majorly nerf immortals (the 10 damage shield thing, and the +50 damage vs armoured) and making it possible for terran to survive the 3-4 warpgate push, otherwise you'd be simply annihilating terran v p
Basically this is 100% true.
On some maps you can open mech (like, LT and maybe Kulas Ravine), but doing that on Blistering Sands would just be suicide. Probably suicide on Steppes of war and maybe even on metalopolis. Basically I don't know if it's possible to go mech on any map where you don't have a cliff overlooking the entrance to your natural/choke.
On April 04 2010 21:41 kidcrash wrote:
I still think shaving 25 HP is a better option than making slow down an ability that you research. Then just give tanks a good 180 HP and you're good to go. Seems like if you added slow down to tech lab you'd be a little cramped in researching both stim and slow down. Not to mention Immortal comes with a passive ability as well (Immortals are fine btw, their cost, supply, build time, and tech level justify their power).
Those points aside, I would take slow down at tech lab as a 2nd choice for nerf because i don't think it would upset overall game balance too much
If you make slow a research, it'd have to be either really cheap on gas, or stim would have to become cheaper.
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Almost tired of trying to be constructive with so much whine about marauders - As already stated, marauder are the only unit that even stand a chance early game vs the protoss gateway units, that's a fact. Even then when i say stand a chance - i don't mean counter, i literally mean what i say - stand a chance, even with an expo, and 3 or so bunkers. I've played several good protoss players, one that sticks in my mind called Bischu on the Euro server - he told me he NEVER loses to terran on any map, i won't reveal his strategy - but the fact he came up with something quite simplistic and yet it works with a very high success rate, even when i know exactly what he's gonna do i think that is in itself enough argument to show this mu isn't "ruined by marauder imbalance".
The fact that marauders seem strong - is just because the other terran units are very weak in comparrison.
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^that doesn't really show me much if I have no idea what the strategy is ><
if you have two tech lab barracks there shouldn't be a cramping problem. it would be a mineral / gas penalty, mostly.
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The problem I have with marauder is that they do the exact same thing as tanks in PvT, but are less expensive. Siege tanks are nearly useless against protoss now that they have all those significant counters (immortals, charge zealots, blink, pheonix's lift to a certain extent). Tanks also cost 125 gas, against 25 for the marauder.
The marauder is a 'boring' unit because it's used too much, but I ask, if you nerf marauder, what will allow terran to hold their place against protoss?
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On April 04 2010 21:45 DeMusliM wrote:
Almost tired of trying to be constructive with so much whine about marauders - As already stated, marauder are the only unit that even stand a chance early game vs the protoss gateway units, that's a fact. Even then when i say stand a chance - i don't mean counter, i literally mean what i say - stand a chance, even with an expo, and 3 or so bunkers. I've played several good protoss players, one that sticks in my mind called Bischu on the Euro server - he told me he NEVER loses to terran on any map, i won't reveal his strategy - but the fact he came up with something quite simplistic and yet it works with a very high success rate, even when i know exactly what he's gonna do i think that is in itself enough argument to show this mu isn't "ruined by marauder imbalance".
The fact that marauders seem strong - is just because the other terran units are very weak in comparrison.
I myself never argued against that. The MMM strategy is definitely the best one a Terran can choose to go for. The problem therefore doesn't exactly lie there, but in the other units. As I often say, Blizzard wanted to make a game that wouldn't be about seeing the same strategies over and over again, and they obviously failed with Terran in this Beta. But it doesn't mean Marauders don't need a nerf. I still think they do, but that nerf should come with a buff and make it so so the Terran race can diversify itself and not so that unit becomes worthless. It's quite the same for Zerg sadly, we only see either mass Lings/Roaches or mass Roaches/Hydras. Something has to be done.
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imo nerf the marudars and buff the hellions by making em cost 75
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On April 04 2010 21:11 lol.Froste wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 20:54 mgj wrote:Really interresting discussion. However i would appriciate if people were actually discussing the topic. On April 04 2010 19:12 bLah. wrote:
or just try playing terran, get into plat div and play vs tosses and you'll see that we don't really have easymode there. Grats, you are in platinium league. Who isn't? Someone please ban this idiot. He is not interrested in a discussion, he just want to use his rating as an argument. Thats some kind of professional retardation or something. immortals are still extremely powerful. they do 50 damage FIFTY DAMAGE vs armored units. why arent you using them? because ghosts are EMPing your shields.
3 marauders are similary priced as 1 immortal so you could say the same about combined 30+30 damage and they are stimmabe, healable with slowdown effect..
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Why don't Protosses get Legspeed on zealots or blink on stalkers to counter mauraders?
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nerf marauders
putting slow as a research isnt a bad idea, but that wouldnt be enough
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it's really hard to play a good terran because if you attack him at the wrong time your army is dead meat cuz of the slow, so there's really no chance to retreat, and if you manage to retreat you will probably take a lot of losses and he can just stomp you over after that. the terran army on the other hand,can simply stim and run away if it's too much. but then a terran will say "hey noob toss u have sentries and force fields that are so freakin imba". WRONG. u need so much gas for immortals/colo/stalker/zealot speed and colo range upgrades, that u can't have so many sentries to effectively block them,and even if you have many sentries,chances are you wasted too much gas and are lacking in immortal/colo,and then you're dead anyway. and don't forget the EMP.
I'm playing in the higher ranks of platinum and it's really stupid to play pvt, almost every game is the ridiculous 2 rax marauder into fast exp, and what's worse, he can actually still pressure you with marauders while expanding, he gets his exp so much faster than you and then his econ is way ahead and he just runs you over with mass marauder and medivac. it's really sad to play like that for the toss. and as someone said, the protoss really needs to be a better player in order to win. 
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yeah I haven't tried mass phoenix / zealot, but I'm curious how it would fare vs. marauder. you'd have to find a way to get there though.
On April 04 2010 21:45 Tdelamay wrote:
The marauder is a 'boring' unit because it's used too much, but I ask, if you nerf marauder, what will allow terran to hold their place against protoss?
a buff to mech would be ideal
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I really don't care at all about these talks about Terrans have nothing without marauders. The bottom line is they are a 1 unit miracle army that is 100% safe to spam 100% of the time. You say P beats this with a good combination of units. Yep, exactly that, a combination of units. Buff Terran, buff mech, it doesn't matter, just don't leave it so they only need this 1 unit. You can't go near a Terran base without losing whatever the scouting unit is- you can't get away from the Marauders.
But all of this is an underlying problem with the deadly trio of SC2 units - The Roach, Marauder, and Immortal. They're all terribly designed and extremely unfun and boring, it just so happens our attentions have focused more-so to the marauder at this time.
That being said, I still love SC2, play every day and have a blast, and I sincerely hope this situation changes.
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I as random player like the marauder.
My only concern is that terran can expand easily with 2 marauders since Protoss cannot counter them early on, because of the slow.
My solution would be to make slow researchable from the tech lab for a maximum of 100/100 80sec.
I guess 50/50 with 60sec could already work too.
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has anyone just tried getting a ton of zealots/ sentries and literally surrounding the marauders with tons of force fields while you charge them with zealots?
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But all of this is an underlying problem with the deadly trio of SC2 units - The Roach, Marauder, and Immortal
Word on that.. does feel like these 3 units are the most flawed in terms of balance and design.
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EPT
