I think blizz is in a bad nerfing circle.. They nerfed marines and scv-s because of the push. They nerfed storm as it was strong against terran bio, and collo was 1 shotting marines and got nerfed.. So what happens if they nerf marauders and buff mech.. Templars and collo becomes useless and terran air is already stronger than P air.. And P tier 1 units are weak.
If marine scv push is not possible I bet they wont be reverting scv nerf.. Or if storm sucks against terran mech they wont revert it as it would make them look bad by nerfing and buffing something in a short amount of time.. Kinda like the mothership.. They overreacted and nerfed everything about it to uselessness..
On April 04 2010 19:06 sleeepy wrote: Before you consider nerfing marauders, realize that without maruaders terrans have nothing.
I'd rather say that with the current Marauders, the Terran has nothing, since there is no need to make any other unit against anything (except Mutas). The Marauder has to be changed otherwise Terrans will continue to use it until the end of time.
I mean 5 Marauders can beat 5 Ultras (which costs 5 times as much), it's just sad.
On April 04 2010 20:00 green.at wrote: Just don't slow light units? Its the first thing that comes to my mind. Because even with charge zealots are semi-optimal against marauders. simple hit and run and they only get 1hit every (insert cooldown time for charge).
I just don't think this makes sense realistically. The results would be only having a slow effect on armored units. So you're telling me the force of an infantry weapon should be enough to slow down the moving speed of an armored unit but not a light one. I'm not saying the starcraft world needs to be 100% realistic but I just can't picture that looking right on a battlefield.
On April 04 2010 19:26 lepape wrote: I'm not saying the situation doesnt need a slight nerf or buff either side, but I have to play the devil's advocate here, let's take a look back at SC1 for a minute.
With range and micro, Dragoons in PvT own any tier 1 terran unit, altough they do reduced damage to infantry. In fact, the only serious counter Terran has against early ranged Dragoons is to wall-in and to tech to a tier 2 unit, not even vultures, but tanks (the equivalent for Protoss would be Immortals of course).
The situation is reversed here and it's fairly similar. The only difference I see between the Dragoons in PvT in SC1 and the Marauders in TvP, it's that 1- Marauders devastate any building. 2- Protoss can't effectively wall-in and repair buildings.
All I'm trying to say is, when people say ''but omg protoss need a tier 1 hardcounter to marauders'', all I can answer is remember SC1 PvT.
This also has quite a lot do to with the high ground advantage that could use a buff imo, more than balancing the units themselves.
Basically, I agree. But there are some differences: 1st. Protoss couldn't rely on pure goons, at least it has to be 50/50 zeals and serious backup from obs/arbiter. 2nd. Goons are not that fast and mobile as maradeurs. 3rd. Marines were even with goons cost to cost but weak against zealots. 4th. You could easily retreat from goons if you had engaged them in unfavourable situation.
The most problem of maradeurs is that they ruin fun of game. They don't make imbalanced matchups.
I think the reason you see terrans building marauders is because of that terrible change to reactors.
50 seconds to make a reactor doesn't really make that viable until early-midgame, at the earliest IMHO, and when you already have 2 tech labs up. And to keep up with eco and macro, the most efficient choice is pumping marauders typically until that third raxx is up (if you have chosen to even go 3 raxx bio, which most high end players do about half the time.)
I feel like the balance doesn't need to be in the unit, but the Terran's options in receiving a smooth path to their midway goals.
If the tech lab and reactor were both, say 35 seconds to upgrade, I think that would be a wonderful change.
It would:
1) Bring back and encourage unit diversity 2) Nerf the tech lab slightly so reaper won't hit mathematically before a stalker can come out in certain cases 3) Allow players that are terran to feel like they have a choice.
That patch to terran almost felt like it was a strange WoW balance patch, where Blizzard starts to make these changes that turn out almost to be instructions on how to play your race, without the fine print.
tvp is imho rather fine. lotsa mixins and you often see so many different units in a mid long tvp (marines,marauders,medivacs,tanks,banshees,vikings,ghosts. maybe even reapers and thors).
that you dont see marines at a certain stage usually is just that they are very easy SUPERHARDcountered. immortals may counter roaches but seeing a collosus getting 30 marines kills in 5 secs is beyond evrything.
in tvz its mass marauder or gtfo anyways. cause the Z WILL just mass roaches cause they are so good and counter evrything. and the only counter are marauders. not to mention that baneling/speedling squads rape evrything Terran has on ground if you dont have marauders or/and mass hellions to block.
i mean just watch the current idra/dimaga reps. its super boring and super basic semifast expo into MASS MASS MASS roaches evrygame while taking the map. totally predictable and straightforward and still many good terrans lose cause even their "counter" gets shred by mass roaches. nerf marauders without heavily nerfing roaches and t will never ever win a tvz again. nerf roaches without adjusting P and z will never win a zvp again (lings beeing useless,hydras get raped by speedzeals+storm/collosus,mutas beeing useless vs stalker/sentry now).
so we should talk about changing the whole weird hardcounter with some superunits system instead of on race crying about the backbone units of the other races (Z say marauders/immortals/collussus op, t says immortal/roach op, p says roach/marauder op)
Nerf the God damn Marauders, I have lost more than 10 games against noob players only massing them, opposite to my always 1+ base more. Only counter protoss have to counter marauders are immortals, but they become useless when ghost start kicking EMPs all over the map..
The biggest problem I see with Marauders is the slow shot. This is probably the main thing that makes them a super all-purpose unit. Either make the ability upgradeable, or not affect light units.
On April 04 2010 20:26 go4it wrote: Nerf the God damn Marauders, I have lost more than 10 games against noob players only massing them, opposite to my always 1+ base more. Only counter protoss have to counter marauders are immortals, but they become useless when ghost start kicking EMPs all over the map..
6 rax Marauders-no-brain-win ftw.
Wait, does this post mean you are 1 base behind him?
I honestly as a terran player feel the marauders are fine as they are, if they make them any worse Marines and Marauders will just become as useless as they were in SC1 Firebat and Marine style.
Atleast with the marauders being slightly powerful it gives us Terrans the option of going bio or mech (well not mech at the moment as much, but bio stays viable in all matchups including TvT). I think one way they can do to make people moan about them less, is to make them do less damage to buildings and leave that up to the heavier units.
Researchable Slow must be the best option, Marauders is a very needed component in the Terran arsenal. If they nerf Marauders too much then units from the barracks will just be useless and people will have to use mech which really aren't that good AFAIK.
weird that, that game got uploaded of me ;S And the reason that marauders were beating ultras - my marauders were 3/3, and his ultras were like 0/2 - AND marauders are a counter unit to ultras ^^.
Btw i don't like the OP post, marauders 33 secs, immortals 40, stalkers 42 (alot less with warpgates), and stalkers also have technically 160 hp, with 80 of it regenable outside of combat - i did not know immortals built that quickly, that's abit insane,.
As for general imbalance whine about marauders vs P, i have played vs multiple good protoss players who have demolished the marauder fe strat, i've had more supply of marauders and zealots/sentries/stalkers walked over me (this 3-4 warpgate push strat). The reason marauders are so commonly used right now vs P, is because NOTHING else is viable - if you consider marines, the amount of flat out counters they have now is ridiculous - Zealots/guardian shield/stalkers/collosus/HT's - the list goes on. Terran can't viably go Mech either, as much as they want to - Immortals counter that whole building single handedly, and with immortals popping out through chrono boost - terran would need alot more factories to even think about outmassing.
If you really wanna "nerf" marauders, you have to boost something else, or majorly nerf immortals (the 10 damage shield thing, and the +50 damage vs armoured) and making it possible for terran to survive the 3-4 warpgate push, otherwise you'd be simply annihilating terran v p
Another thing that I havent seen mentioned that I really think is a big part of the issue is their incredible fast attack, you can move-attack-move-attack pretty much without sotpping for a second Its almost instant, on the other hand the hellion that is supposed to be the mobile fast unit has to stop for a full second for his attack to even come out.
On April 04 2010 20:26 go4it wrote: Nerf the God damn Marauders, I have lost more than 10 games against noob players only massing them, opposite to my always 1+ base more. Only counter protoss have to counter marauders are immortals, but they become useless when ghost start kicking EMPs all over the map..
6 rax Marauders-no-brain-win ftw.
Wait, does this post mean you are 1 base behind him?
On April 04 2010 20:37 DeMusliM wrote: weird that, that game got uploaded of me ;S And the reason that marauders were beating ultras - my marauders were 3/3, and his ultras were like 0/2 - AND marauders are a counter unit to ultras ^^.
Btw i don't like the OP post, marauders 33 secs, immortals 40, stalkers 42 (alot less with warpgates), and stalkers also have technically 160 hp, with 80 of it regenable outside of combat - i did not know immortals built that quickly, that's abit insane,.
As for general imbalance whine about marauders vs P, i have played vs multiple good protoss players who have demolished the marauder fe strat, i've had more supply of marauders and zealots/sentries/stalkers walked over me (this 3-4 warpgate push strat). The reason marauders are so commonly used right now vs P, is because NOTHING else is viable - if you consider marines, the amount of flat out counters they have now is ridiculous - Zealots/guardian shield/stalkers/collosus/HT's - the list goes on. Terran can't viably go Mech either, as much as they want to - Immortals counter that whole building single handedly, and with immortals popping out through chrono boost - terran would need alot more factories to even think about outmassing.
If you really wanna "nerf" marauders, you have to boost something else, or majorly nerf immortals (the 10 damage shield thing, and the +50 damage vs armoured) and making it possible for terran to survive the 3-4 warpgate push, otherwise you'd be simply annihilating terran v p
Why dont Terran players use more Tanks/Thors instead of mass Marauders?
I dont have to scout Terran player these days, I always know what will come out of their base.
Dont get me wrong I love Marauders as units, but I hate to see Terran players doing nothing except massing them and I really dislike playing that.
On April 04 2010 20:45 go4it wrote: Why dont Terran players use more Tanks/Thors instead of mass Marauders?
I dont have to scout Terran player these days, I always know what will come out of their base.
Dont get me wrong I love Marauders as units, but I hate to see Terran players doing nothing except massing them and I really dislike playing that.
They are just arent worth the money with how fast they fall to immortals I'd imagine.
With marauders you get alot of units for the immortals to have to kill and they have enough HP so that psi stom and colossus don immediatly destroy them.
Didn't he put it in pretty plain English in his post? Immortals counter pretty much all factory units (and gl killing immortals with hellions). As it is right now the only way I see factory unit armies ever working vs P is if T can also mix in ghosts...but I really don't think that is feasible until it is too late because immortals are out well before terran can get enough gas for both.
On April 04 2010 20:37 DeMusliM wrote: weird that, that game got uploaded of me ;S And the reason that marauders were beating ultras - my marauders were 3/3, and his ultras were like 0/2 - AND marauders are a counter unit to ultras ^^.
Btw i don't like the OP post, marauders 33 secs, immortals 40, stalkers 42 (alot less with warpgates), and stalkers also have technically 160 hp, with 80 of it regenable outside of combat - i did not know immortals built that quickly, that's abit insane,.
As for general imbalance whine about marauders vs P, i have played vs multiple good protoss players who have demolished the marauder fe strat, i've had more supply of marauders and zealots/sentries/stalkers walked over me (this 3-4 warpgate push strat). The reason marauders are so commonly used right now vs P, is because NOTHING else is viable - if you consider marines, the amount of flat out counters they have now is ridiculous - Zealots/guardian shield/stalkers/collosus/HT's - the list goes on. Terran can't viably go Mech either, as much as they want to - Immortals counter that whole building single handedly, and with immortals popping out through chrono boost - terran would need alot more factories to even think about outmassing.
If you really wanna "nerf" marauders, you have to boost something else, or majorly nerf immortals (the 10 damage shield thing, and the +50 damage vs armoured) and making it possible for terran to survive the 3-4 warpgate push, otherwise you'd be simply annihilating terran v p
Why dont Terran players use more Tanks/Thors instead of mass Marauders?
I dont have to scout Terran player these days, I always know what will come out of their base.
Dont get me wrong I love Marauders as units, but I hate to see Terran players doing nothing except massing them and I really dislike playing that.
I don't want to point out the obvious but Because immortals counters tanks/thors completely... Roaches counter thors and tanks in massive numbers... Solution to both are mass marauders thus more marauders
Here is a formula i made up. I call it ooni algorithm while (playing zerg v zerg) { build moar roaches(); }
while (playing terran) { If (enemy player == protoss) { build moar marauders(); } else if (enemy player == zerg) { build moar marauders(); } else if (enemy player == terran) { build moar marauders(); } }
while (playing protoss) { build zealots; build stalkers; build sentries; if (marauders attack) { type("gg"); } build immortals; build collusus; if (mutalisks attack) { type("gg"); } build mass carriers; win(); }
Really interresting discussion. However i would appriciate if people were actually discussing the topic.
On April 04 2010 19:12 bLah. wrote: or just try playing terran, get into plat div and play vs tosses and you'll see that we don't really have easymode there.
Grats, you are in platinium league. Who isn't? Someone please ban this idiot. He is not interrested in a discussion, he just want to use his rating as an argument. Thats some kind of professional retardation or something.
EPT
