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On April 04 2010 19:25 Knutzi wrote:
give marines 6 range instead of 5 and give marauders 5 instead of 6, that way they wont automaticly lineup so that marines take all the hits from immortals and it would be a boost to the marines as they are kinda on the weak side atm
??? This really wouldn't solve much of anything, considering terrans build little, and most of the time no marines(for reference im 4th in plat div atm, so im not playing against spastics, most of the terrans i play build either 1 marine before adding tech lab, or none at all... Even when they see mass immortal, they still dont bother adding marines, cos with ghost + medivac they dont need, immortal simply do NOT counter that combination as hard as they, in my opinion, should). Not to mention when they do this issue is easily solved by not just a-moving and instead selecting immortals and shift-clicking the marauders.
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On April 04 2010 19:26 lepape wrote:
I'm not saying the situation doesnt need a slight nerf or buff either side, but I have to play the devil's advocate here, let's take a look back at SC1 for a minute.
With range and micro, Dragoons in PvT own any tier 1 terran unit, altough they do reduced damage to infantry. In fact, the only serious counter Terran has against early ranged Dragoons is to wall-in and to tech to a tier 2 unit, not even Vulture, but tanks (the equivalent for Protoss would be Immortals of course).
The situation is reversed here and it's fairly similar. The only difference I see between the Dragoons in PvT in SC1 and the Marauders in TvP, it's that 1- Marauders devastate any building. 2- Protoss can't effectively wall-in and repair buildings.
All I'm trying to say is, when people say ''but omg protoss need a tier 1 hardcounter to marauders'', all I can answer is remember SC1 PvT.
This also has quite a lot do to with the high ground advantage that could use a buff imo, more than the units themselves.
I'm not sure if i remember correctly, however i believe that marine and medics could hold their own vs dragoons. I think the problem was that if a terran went infantry vs protoss he would need to win fast because toss would just wipe out terrans infantry with storm or reaver later on.
Maybe im wrong about that though, but thats what i remember.
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Marauders do need a nerf, get real. No unit should be able to handle an entire match-up on its own. Have you actually SEEN a TvP ? 99% of the time, the Terran doesn't even bother with another unit than Marauder. He does 4 Medivacs and just keeps spamming Marauders, while the Protoss has to diversify his army to defeat - ONCE AGAIN - a ONE UNIT composed army. You can't tell me you see nothing wrong with this.
Just add a 10 second cooldown to the slow. Blink isn't an initial skill, neither is Charge or Storm. Pretty much every spell any Protoss unit may have (aside from Sentries - THANK GOD) has to be researched. What do Terrans have to research exactly ? Slow is given, so is Snipe, EMP, Medivacs' healing ability, the only thing I can think of that needs researching is Cloak. But, add a research to the slow ability would be too big of a nerf and would indeed defeat the whole purpose of rushing Marauders. But it would greatly reduce the sick hit and run efficiency and would force the Terran to make some other units.
Cause I'm sorry, but at some point, if the Terran does know how to hit and run properly and does it well, there's nothing the Protoss can do aside from spamming Storm to prevent the Terran to get anywhere near him. And all that without adding EMP to the recipe.
I'm not sure about the duration, but I do feel like the best option to nerf Marauders is to give Slow a cooldown. I say 10 seconds because most of the spells in this game have a 10 second cooldown, but it could be less, maybe 5 or so. Just an idea.
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The two most common sense solutions are:
Give slow a 150/150 research cost
OR
Shave 25 hp off the total HP.
Then in turn compensate by:
Giving the siege tank an HP buff, making it around 180 HP
C'mon blizzard, terran infantry should not have that much HP, whereas the siege tank should have beefy HP in comparison.
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On April 04 2010 19:34 Spaylz wrote:
Marauders do need a nerf, get real. No unit should be able to handle an entire match-up on its own. Have you actually SEEN a TvP ? 99% of the time, the Terran doesn't even bother with another unit than Marauder. He does 4 Medivacs and just keeps spamming Marauders, while the Protoss has to diversify his army to defeat - ONCE AGAIN - a ONE UNIT composed army. You can't tell me you see nothing wrong with this.
Just add a 10 second cooldown to the slow. Blink isn't an initial skill, neither is Charge or Storm. Pretty much every spell any Protoss unit may have (aside from Sentries - THANK GOD) has to be researched. What do Terrans have to research exactly ? Slow is given, so is Snipe, EMP, Medivacs' heal ability, the only thing I can think of that needs researching is Cloak. But, add a research to the slow ability would be too big of a nerf and would indeed defeat the whole purpose of rushing Marauders. But it would greatly reduce the sick hit and run efficiency and would force the Terran to make some other units.
Cause I'm sorry, but at some point, if the Terran does know how to hit and run properly and does it well, there's nothing the Protoss can do aside from spamming Storm to prevent the Terran to get anywhere near him. And all that without adding EMP to the recipe.
I'm not sure about the duration, but I do feel like the best option to nerf Marauders is to give Slow a cooldown. I say 10 seconds because most of the spells in this game have a 10 second cooldown, but it could be less, maybe 5 or so. Just an idea.
I like the idea of a ~5 sec CD on the slow, and with that, terran mech really needs a buff. Because even with this 5 sec CD on the slow I think terran would still go MnMnM 90% of the time, just because mech is Slightly underpowered.
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Yeah, I do agree on the mech issue. But I don't really think tanks should be buffed, I would see more point in another mech unit being added to the game. I'm not really sure a tank-buff would be enough to stop Terran from mindlessly spamming Marauders.
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I really think marauders should be changed.
They're amazing in nearly all aspects.
The slowing ability seems gratuitous when stacked up with everything else
I think it's unnecessary. It sounds like something you would give to a unit with a specialty role
But the Marauder is good for almost everything (except for anti-air)
It makes games uninteresting since there's not really a specific counter or even soft counter to it, the solution is just to get a shit load of units which leads to the whole massing upon massing thing.
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On April 04 2010 19:34 Spaylz wrote:
Marauders do need a nerf, get real. No unit should be able to handle an entire match-up on its own.
this is where the one sided view of the people shows up clearly.
marauders - roaches - immortals all are in the same boat. the are insanely strong and counter way way way too many units. but the only option is nerfing all of them and not one of them at a time.
you just cant talk about marauder balance without talking about the others too.
also people dont thing about the consequences and how much the game would shift. nerf marauders and we will see 100%mass raoch instead of hydra/roach, we will see mass zealot rushes and whole terran ground crumbles all around.
i agree that the almighty 3 semihero units are just too good overall. but u cant change that without totally overhauling balance AND adding more units (esp for Z)
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If you nerf Marauders, for the love of pete, buff mech. If tanks and hellions were more practical to get a lot of, than a nerf to Marauder would at least open the door for more diversity.
Lower gas cost, build time and knock the supply down to 2 (Why is it 3, whyyy is it threeeeeeee) on Tanks and improve Hellion attack animation delay (maybe lower cost since reactors take 50seconds now). In turn, make Marauders slow researchable and remove stim from them. Their role, as I see it, should be more a support unit within the army rather than being 90% of the army. You could even increase their gas cost to 50 so they are less spammable (25 gas makes the world of difference). That might be too much, but they do need some sort of a nerf and a more defined role.
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On April 04 2010 19:45 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 19:34 Spaylz wrote:
Marauders do need a nerf, get real. No unit should be able to handle an entire match-up on its own. this is where the one sided view of the people shows up clearly. marauders - roaches - immortals all are in the same boat. the are insanely strong and counter way way way too many units. but the only option is nerfing all of them and not one of them at a time.
I agree. I find the Immortal is overall too good. Not only is it a tank, but it deals massive damage, and has a special effect that prevents it from taking damage from heavy hits. I think a damage nerf would be suitable, as long as the costs or other stats of the units were modified.
Basically, roach. immortal, and marauders are all kind of ground only attacking units that are a little too good in all areas. Their only weaknesses are air units, except for, I guess Immortals, who are rather weak to lots and lots of zerglings I find.
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I guess I'm just repeating what many people have said before me. Terran players don't WANT to spam marauders, any more than other people want to fight against the 1 unit army. We spam it because EVERYTHING ELSE SUCKS. Tanks are crap, hellions are even CRAPPIER, and thors are walking battlecruisers, dont even have goliath anymore. So what can Terran build? Literally in my games factories get lifted almost every time because they do better as vision than they do as production buildings.
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I think the reason you see terrans building marauders is because of that terrible change to reactors.
50 seconds to make a reactor doesn't really make that viable until early-midgame, at the earliest IMHO, and when you already have 2 tech labs up. And to keep up with eco and macro, the most efficient choice is pumping marauders typically until that third raxx is up (if you have chosen to even go 3 raxx bio, which most high end players do about half the time.)
I feel like the balance doesn't need to be in the unit, but the Terran's options in receiving a smooth path to their midway goals.
If the tech lab and reactor were both, say 35 seconds to upgrade, I think that would be a wonderful change.
It would:
1) Bring back and encourage unit diversity
2) Nerf the tech lab slightly so reaper won't hit mathematically before a stalker can come out in certain cases
3) Allow players that are terran to feel like they have a choice.
That patch to terran almost felt like it was a strange WoW balance patch, where Blizzard starts to make these changes that turn out almost to be instructions on how to play your race, without the fine print.
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Buffing Mech would be something to consider for sure. But there are two factors in sc2 that make other unit compositions much riskier: Queens and Warp gates.
Even if marauders were nerfed and mech buffed, we would still be seeing MMM in the majority of cases because it's the most mobile and flexible unit comp that T has. Warp Gates and Queen Larvae allow for overly rapid unit counters which punish T's who try something more strategically varied. Coupled with the fact that Terran has the worst scouting of all the races, it's all the more enticing for T's to stick with their cozy MMM composition.
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I think this topic should be in an article on the front page. It seems like Blizzard listened to the last one about static defense needing a buff (Unless that was just coincidence).
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"However, (in tvp) after an immortal is out marauders are essentially countered." I dare you to show me a game (with good level) where a Protoss actually counters Marauders with Immortals. Immortals are WAY too slow and WAY too expensive too be that good of a counter. You will NEVER be able to mass them up enough to catch up with the Terran and make it so his Marauders can't do anything to you. You will be able to show me a game where a Protoss does a few Immortals, but never more than a few, because it won't be the actual counter the Protoss is using. He will be spamming Storms instead, or using Charged Zealots and Stalkers with Blink.
Don't get me wrong, Immortals really are a very good unit, they hurt like hell, but their major downside is that they're damn slow and they're expensive.
Also, I'm talking about the Marauder nerf that I feel is necessary because that's what the topic is about. Marauder is not the only unit that needs fixing and I never said it was. If you want my opinion on everything else, I think Roaches need another nerf, Lings need to be slowed down and I think EMP needs to remove less shield. Immortals could deal 10 damage less also, wouldn't hurt too much. I also think Phoenixes need a buff (they're damn useless right now), and so do Terran Mechs.
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On April 04 2010 19:00 Plexa wrote:It's about time we had one of these since they are, without doubt, the least fun unit in the game (along with Roaches, but we'll talk about those another day). This unit is single handedly ruining TvP and 2v2, and probably some other matchups as well. We've had a few discussions already - the marauder cheese, lucifron's boring wins over hasuobs, more marauder issues etc. But now let's tackle to problem in it's entirety, the bottom line is the Marauder is just no fun at all. Let's look at the stats and how they compare to the Stalker (since PvT is the biggest issue, we'll compare it to the "equivalent" unit for Protoss):
+ Show Spoiler +Cost:
Marauder: 100/25, 2 Supply
Stalker: 125/50, 2 Supply
Health:
Marauder: 125
Stalker: 80/80
Build Time
Marauder: 33
Stalker: 42 (21 with Chrono)
(Immortal: 40 (20 with Chrono))
Abilities:
Marauder:
Slow (passive)
Stim (150/150 from Tech Lab)
Stalker:
Blink (150/150 from Twilight Council - extra building)
Damage:
Marauder: 10 +10 vs Armored (+1/+1)
Cooldown: 1.5
Range: 6
Stalker: 10 + 4 vs Armored (+1/+0)
Cooldown: 1.44
Range: 6
Speed:
Marauder: 2.25
Stalker: 2.915 The jist of this spoiler is the Marauder has the Stalker beat on every single level - except speed (but thats not really important once you factor in stim anyway). Okay, but the Marauder is meant to be counter Stalkers - okay thats fine and dandy but Marauders can easily out micro Zealots which are suppose to counter Marauders! Furthermore, once the Terran gets to Medivac tech Marauders become even harder to stop since they just heal right back up without a care in the world. That is, unless you have feedback (and then we descend into the debate about ghosts vs templar...). Rather than continue to expound on the issue, let's discuss possible solutions to the problem. Here are some which have come up in the previously linked threads: - Make slow a research - Make slow not effect Zealots/Zerglings - Increase Cost/Change build time - Remove Stim Alternatively, in order to make Stalkers more viable against them I would suggest that either Blink becomes an initial ability of the Stalker or is moved to the Cybernetics Core, or that the Range of Marauders is decreased/Range of stalkers increased so that the Stalkers can use their speed and mobility to pick off Marauders before Stim kicks in (when Protoss should really have better options to deal with them like immortals). I personally feel that modifying the stalker in this way, i.e. making it more of a harass unit which frequently makes use of hit and run like Hasuobs demonstrated was possible vs Zerg, is the most interesting solution to the problem since equally well microed protoss should be able to hold it off. Another possible idea was to reduce the role of the Marauder to a support unit ala the Dryad in War3. Me and mani discussed this idea last night as we got Proxygate/Marauder cheesed a few games in a row. Simply put, if the Marauder was designed to supplement an army rather than be the core of it (like sentries are for Protoss at the moment) then we feel that Terran would become a more interesting race in general and able to exploit all the cool shit like nukes, mech, ravens and whatnot. Anyway, discuss away. How do we solve the marauder issue?
All people wanna their main race buffed or nerf some units which from another races, that's the real issue
What happens if we nerf Marauder and buff Stalker ? SC2 isn't all bout TvP but TvT TvZ PvZ ... Beside, atm Marauder is the only open in TvP imo. Nerf it and Protoss rapes Terran all the way lol lol lol
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clearly it's not so much nerf marauder as it is fix terran. as it's been said nerfing marauder alone destroys terran completely.
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nerf marauders slow on attack but also buff siege tanks by making them turn to siege mode more quickly!
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Just don't slow light units?
Its the first thing that comes to my mind. Because even with charge zealots are semi-optimal against marauders. simple hit and run and they only get 1hit every (insert cooldown time for charge).
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On April 04 2010 19:52 Joey.rumz wrote:
I think the reason you see terrans building marauders is because of that terrible change to reactors.
50 seconds to make a reactor doesn't really make that viable until early-midgame, at the earliest IMHO, and when you already have 2 tech labs up. And to keep up with eco and macro, the most efficient choice is pumping marauders typically until that third raxx is up (if you have chosen to even go 3 raxx bio, which most high end players do about half the time.)
I feel like the balance doesn't need to be in the unit, but the Terran's options in receiving a smooth path to their midway goals.
If the tech lab and reactor were both, say 35 seconds to upgrade, I think that would be a wonderful change.
It would:
1) Bring back and encourage unit diversity
2) Nerf the tech lab slightly so reaper won't hit mathematically before a stalker can come out in certain cases
3) Allow players that are terran to feel like they have a choice.
That patch to terran almost felt like it was a strange WoW balance patch, where Blizzard starts to make these changes that turn out almost to be instructions on how to play your race, without the fine print.
Good post, changing both reactor and tech lab time to 35 would make it so terran players actually have to decide between two viable builds, instead of one that's better 98% of the time early game. I don't know why they cant settle on a middle of the road build time instead of bouncing from one extreme to the other.
Also such a small change would be sure not to affect overall game balance, while at the same time promoting diversity in build order and army composition. Remember we don't want to fix one problem only to cause another. Small steps are always the best. IF we still find only marauders being spammed, at that point, take things a step further.
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EPT
