[D] Marauders - Page 32

huun

Turkey58 Posts

April 07 2010 10:38 GMT

#621

you may discuss helions, siege tanks or vikings for hundered of pages but you know marauders do their job.

its the most reliable unit of terran arsenal. they are good for melee units except lings, they are good for ranged units with high dmg, they are good to ruin your opponent's base.

there is nothing wrong with them. they are the heroes and terran army really need heroes. maybe the problem is +dmg bonus mechanic and maybe your answer hidden somewhere in that topic: Role vs Counter: A Theory on S][C Unit Design

Paladia

802 Posts

April 07 2010 11:18 GMT

#622

Don't see how people could possibly have problems with the slow not working on melee units for "lore" reasons. Nothing in the game make sense in terms of lore. Why does ZvZ even exist when the Swarm is all controlled by Kerrigan? Does it mean we should disable ZvZ because it makes no sense "lore wise"?

If you want it to still make sense. Call it something like:
"Magnetic Rounds (or Encumbering Rounds)
- Each shot will attach itself to the targets armor, weighing them down"

Now it makes sense for unarmored units to be unaffected, since they have no armor. Same with massive units, they are too large to be slowed down by such.

suejak

Japan545 Posts

April 07 2010 12:19 GMT

#623

I mean, the "brood war" itself was all about Kerrigan using zerg to fight zerg. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more of that kind of thing in SC2.

2SCV1cup

69 Posts

April 07 2010 12:30 GMT

#624

On April 07 2010 19:21 Plexa wrote:

Show nested quote +

The issue is what problem do you have in mind that needs to be solved? In my mind it's simply that the rushes are too powerful and slowing them down should alleviate that. However, you may think there is a different issue at hand - in which case do share!

so lets make slow 50-50 upgrade or something with short time which will prevent early game rushes but wont hurt late game balance and factory/starport units

Paladia

802 Posts

April 07 2010 13:40 GMT

#625

On April 07 2010 21:19 suejak wrote:
I mean, the "brood war" itself was all about Kerrigan using zerg to fight zerg. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more of that kind of thing in SC2.

Well, at the end she united the Swarm. Regardless, even if there were some stray zerg, they wouldn't have had the same mutations as the Kerrigan swarm (i.e. they wouldn't have the new units in SC2).

Musoeun

United States4324 Posts

April 07 2010 14:39 GMT

#626

My concern about the marauder is that it seems to be a general-purpose anti-ground unit, and the Terran army seems to have a bunch of those: hellion, marauder, tank, as well as (to a lesser extent) marine, viking, and thor. I understand that they each have specific weaknesses, but it just seems like those weaknesses are "designed in" to try to force the player to vary his composition to deal with "everything". But really - as we know from SC:BW - you need to have a limited basic composition, because building a few of everything, in order to deal with everything, gets you killed by masses of one unit that most of your units don't deal with very well.

As it stands now, the Marauder is forming the basis of most Terran compositions (especially TvP early game) because it's the best all-around unit (except vs. air, of course). Yes it's weak to zealots, but hey, everything has to have a weak point and that's why you have support units like the hellion.

My primary question with the Marauder, therefore, is: why are marines even in the game? You need a few for anti-air apparently, but that seems to be all they're good for outside of TvT. And yes, of course the marauder probably needs a little balance work, but if we just slot it into the "generic useful unit" role for Terran, we can work from there.

xnub

Canada610 Posts

April 07 2010 17:11 GMT

#627

On April 07 2010 16:54 AgmLauncher wrote:

Show nested quote +

But if he makes roaches which 95% of players do (especially if they scout you), then you've just wasted a ton of minerals on a unit that has been rendered obsolete, and double obsolete when Mutas hit the field. You can easily kite Roaches with Hellions, but they do so little damage that you're just wasting your attention/APM at that point.

If I had my choice between 100 minerals for a Hellion and 100 minerals for a Marauder, the Marauder is by far the better choice. I realize Marauders cost gas, but not that much.

Hellions are much better off if the zerg fast expands like 90 % of them do now a days vs a terran. you keep him near his base if he moves out you tourch all his drones : P and his roachs will be late cause fast expand. Really it all depends on the way the match is going. Getting marauder in the late/mid game would most times probly be the better choice hellions are a harsment unit and only used for some things. Where as the marauder is made to be a front line unit.

Hellions are never really a obsolete unit they are good for many things after roachs come out scouting harsment of front line units and expands drops w/e. Then when hydras come out good again.

xnub

Canada610 Posts

April 07 2010 17:14 GMT

#628

On April 07 2010 19:00 Plexa wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 07 2010 05:10 QibingZero wrote:

On April 07 2010 01:57 MorroW wrote:

On April 06 2010 22:41 Plexa wrote:

On April 06 2010 22:34 Zato-1 wrote:

On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote:
Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not.

On April 06 2010 20:09 MorroW wrote:
why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine?

ur killing every single rush possibility of the terran by doing this, marine bunker rush? yea right like thats gonna happen when bunks r 30 and rines r 25

I feel this is an interesting point there should be more discussion about- after all, you'll never be able to agree on fixes for the Marauder if you can't first agree on what's the problem with the Marauder (if any).

Do Terrans have the capacity to be the aggressors most of the time in TvP? Are Protoss just as capable of putting the pressure on Terrans, or maybe even more so? Let's try to figure this out constructively. Early pressure tactics mentioned so far include:

PvT:
+ Show Spoiler +

- Proxy gates
- Cannon rushes
- Early Void Rays
- Proxy DTs
- Other ground unit combos (gateway units + immortals)

TvP:
+ Show Spoiler +

- Reaper rush
- Marauder rush
- Proxy barracks
- Bunker rush
- Early banshees
- Drops

Just as important as the number of ways you can put early pressure on your opponent is, how effective are these strats? If we can get a good grasp on how strong P early pressure is compared to T early pressure, we can get past the first hurdle, namely: agree on what the problem is.

Excellent post. I'll try redirect the thread in this direction.

great pos except its not true
-drops?
ive never seen any terran ever going fast drop against toss, why would u do it? how can this be effective. scratch this off the list because fast drop by terran is just as likely and just as effective as a fast drop by toss (which ive seen alot more of)
bunker rush? same here, ive never seen a bunker rush. a bunker takes 30 seconds to make and scvs got 45 hp. even if bunker rush was possible it would include in the proxi rax so it wouldnt qualify as 2

so in effective rushes (that qualify imo)
PvT:
+ Show Spoiler +

- Proxy gates
- Cannon rushes
- Early Void Rays
- Proxy DTs
- Other ground unit combos (gateway units + immortals)

TvP:
+ Show Spoiler +

- Reaper rush
- Marauder rush
- Proxy barracks
- Early banshees

if u remove academy
PvT:
+ Show Spoiler +

- Proxy gates
- Cannon rushes
- Early Void Rays
- Proxy DTs
- Other ground unit combos (gateway units + immortals)

TvP:
+ Show Spoiler +

- Proxy barracks
- Early banshees

and this is my point

On April 06 2010 23:06 Tyrran wrote:

On April 06 2010 22:41 Plexa wrote:

On April 06 2010 22:34 Zato-1 wrote:

- Proxy gates
- Cannon rushes
- Early Void Rays
- Proxy DTs
- Other ground unit combos (gateway units + immortals)

TvP:
+ Show Spoiler +

- Reaper rush
- Marauder rush
- Proxy barracks
- Bunker rush
- Early banshees
- Drops

Excellent post. I'll try redirect the thread in this direction.

Once again, as a Z player, i will give my insigth on the ZvT matchup. Before anyone ask, I am a ~1150 platinum player. Not a great player, but not a bad one either.

In the beginning of the beta, every one thougth that Marine > Hydra > Marauders > Roaches > Marines.This led to great mixed armies as each player tried to have the perfect mix of hydra/roaches and marines.

However, nowadays, more and more people realizes that Marauders = Hydras. SO there is basically no need for marines anymore until mutas ( wich cant be rushed or the marauder push will just rape the Z , plus mutas does very little damage to marauders so they will deal a LOT of damage before deing)

I have nothing against Marauder being core of the T army. But my current concern is that the marauder makes the marines useless. This is somewhat true in ZvT, and seems to be even more of a concern in ZvP ( but i will let TvPs expert confirm this.).

tl:dr :

Marauder strength makes the marine useless.

totally agree. this is the problem i have with marauders, ever since patch 6 they took the thunder away from the marines totally

On April 07 2010 00:18 slimshady wrote:
Actually, I like this idea: the zealot's charge being immune to the marauder's slow effect.
Zealots won't be so useless vs marauders.

the problem is whenever marauders get charged they can just back for 2-3 seconds and zealot wont get an attack off and they r back to square 1. zealots themselves cant touch the marauders in a battle like this without flank or high numbers that causes ai issues to the marauders, the charge doesnt do squat even if it wasnt slowed

A couple things you mention here bring up a relevant note:

I often employ a quick drop/stim strategy on Desert Oasis (though I dislike the map in general), and I find it to be quite effective. I agree that on most maps, this type of thing isn't really that effective. At the very least, on Oasis it keeps the toss occupied while I expand, and the rush distance is so long that even if you lose most of your force you'll have macroed enough by the time the toss army gets to you.

I ended up in such a situation, against Plexa of all people, in a ladder match yesterday, and early zealot charge was actually the deciding factor in him holding off my drop. If he had gone Immortal heavy, the game probably would have been over. Zealots just take so little damage from Marauders, and are very effective as long as you have units that can take shots at the Marauders while they micro away.

Overall on this issue, I think the only problem really is the early game. When it gets to late game, PvT is largely balanced (though small micro mistakes on either side can be game-ending). The issue for Terran is that if you nerf Marauders (even by just requiring another building for them), something has to be done to help out Terran early on. Marines and SCVs have already taken huge hits, and it's difficult enough to micro off early pressure with them now.

In case anyone is wondering here is the replay:
http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/sc2_reps/Plexa_vs_QibingZero.sc2replay

I see we still haven't settled on what is the problem with the Marauder. Again, I think it is how strong they are early game - which can be easily fixed by increasing the tech lab build time and cost (to 50/50, a modest increase!). Furthermore, I think charge should be made more accessible but I think that might just be my protoss bias seeping through - 150/150 like blink would make me happy. I say make charge more accessible since it means Zealots can fight against Marauder since their base speed is boosted to the same as the stalker (fast than marauder) and charge always helps!

Other than the early game issues, PvT is fine in the midgame/lategame and it becomes real battle of skill (which is what we all want, right?). Nerfing the Marauder in any long standing way will just hurt this - HP nerfs, removing stimpack and whatnot are not the answer. Slow as an upgrade might be, but I think a simple increase in tech lab build time will suffice (and deal with the reaper cheese while we are at it).

Even with charge tho marauders kite the crap out of zealots they only get 1 shot of then get slowed again for another 10 sec. Also does not fix the mix of units agian will still only be 100 % marauders. Removeing slow from melee units will fix early game and bring back a good mix.

xnub

Canada610 Posts

April 07 2010 17:17 GMT

#629

On April 07 2010 21:30 2SCV1cup wrote:

Show nested quote +

so lets make slow 50-50 upgrade or something with short time which will prevent early game rushes but wont hurt late game balance and factory/starport units

still does not fix the problem still will mass 100 % marauders and still rush will happen just 1 min back and that won't make a diff. why get mariners when marauders can kites melee units that are made to counter them.

WorkersOfTheWorld

United States619 Posts

April 07 2010 17:20 GMT

#630

On April 08 2010 02:17 xnub wrote:
still does not fix the problem still will mass 100 % marauders and still rush will happen just 1 min back and that won't make a diff. why get mariners when marauders can kites melee units that are made to counter them.

Agreed.

suejak

Japan545 Posts

April 07 2010 17:21 GMT

#631

On April 07 2010 22:40 Paladia wrote:

Show nested quote +

Well, at the end she united the Swarm. Regardless, even if there were some stray zerg, they wouldn't have had the same mutations as the Kerrigan swarm (i.e. they wouldn't have the new units in SC2).

LOL, how do you know? You have no clue what the plot to SC2 is, nor how zerg physiology/evolution work, so your attempts to claim that ZvZ is somehow non-canon or inconsistent with lore fall flat. :D

suejak

Japan545 Posts

April 07 2010 17:22 GMT

#632

P.S. Researched marauder slow effect FTW. This is the best idea ever.

ZenDeX

Philippines2916 Posts

April 07 2010 17:24 GMT

#633

Seriously, just hit the Marauder with a HUGE nerf bat.

Welcome to Blizzard Nerf-o-Matic!
What would you like to do with the Marauder?
a) Increase its mineral cost.
b) Increase it gas cost.
c) Increase its build time.
d) Require players to upgrade the passive slow
e) Require players to upgrade a separate stim pack for them
f) Make the stim take away a percentage of HP instead of a fixed cost.
g) Require players to upgrade its range first.
h) Make Light units immune to slow.
i) Make Biological units immune to slow.
j) All of the above.
k) I would like to pick the following options only: _____________

link0

United States1071 Posts

April 07 2010 17:28 GMT

#634

The marauder should only be nerfed when the roach and immortal are treated similarly.

Antimage

Canada1293 Posts

April 07 2010 17:29 GMT

#635

On April 08 2010 02:28 link0 wrote:
The marauder should only be nerfed when the roach and immortal are treated similarly.

lol as a toss player, I'm fine with that.

ZenDeX

Philippines2916 Posts

April 07 2010 17:30 GMT

#636

On April 08 2010 02:21 suejak wrote:

Show nested quote +

LOL, how do you know? You have no clue what the plot to SC2 is, nor how zerg physiology/evolution work, so your attempts to claim that ZvZ is somehow non-canon or inconsistent with lore fall flat. :D

Of course the rogue cerebrates are still out there and they are smart enough to steal some evolved strains from Kerrigan.

On April 08 2010 02:28 link0 wrote:
The marauder should only be nerfed when the roach and immortal are treated similarly.

Please expound.