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On April 07 2010 08:26 xnub wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 08:06 kidcrash wrote:
They made slow not effect massive units from a lore perspective, I 100% guarantee it. There was no need to be creative because these was nothing to be solved.
Yes marauders will still kite the hell out of zealots but..
1. The rush will come later. Every second counts and if you have to wait a full minute for the upgrade to complete, this gives ample time to prepare.
2. 100/100 for an upgrade is 4 marauders worth of gas. Meaning when the rush does come it will have less marauders.
3. Late game is completely unaffected. fisrt thing the terran will get will be the upgrade and due to the fact that is on the tech lab as soon as he can get marauders he can get the upgrade. Also the upgrades not going to be anything super long it will just push the rush back maybe 1 min. Before this one min time the terran can still send in marauders to force the T to build units if he build stalkers good marauders counter them if he builds zealots good in 30 sec you will counter them run away come back in 30's you delayed him on his tech. I mean you can rush the toss base as soon as you get 2-4 marauders right now and put him on his back so much. This upgrade would need to be like 3 mins or 2.30 to alow him to get up in that tech. and a 2.30 - 3 min upgrade is just not going to happen. Also still haveing only 1 real counter to the marauder after that upgrade not very good. Would rather see the unit that is made to counter them counter them. Also you would still not see a mix of units agian would still just be all marauders and not a mix.
Agreed, it would still be only marauders. That's why something else small would need to be done to make them less tank like. Something as simple as a 25 drop in HP, along with making slow down an upgrade, would suffice. But please for the love of god, give the siege tank (or marines and reactors) some love if this happens, we need to give terran another real option to go to other than marauder.
I just don't want to see melee immune to slow. Why dumb down the game and decrease chances for micro when you can just make the abuse less harsh overall. You have to consider the cost for this upgrade cutting into stim as well, that makes a huge difference when rushing. I know the 25 gas for the marauder is easy to set aside.
If you really think this wouldn't impact the rush enough, maybe making the upgrade 150/150 instead of 100/100 is needed. You'd absolutely have to lower siege tank gas at that point. I admit, melee being immune to the slow effect is the only other solution that has the best overall (early/mid/late game) balance. Just seems like adding an upgrade would add timing/depth to the game as opposed to taking things out of it.
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On April 07 2010 08:57 kidcrash wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 08:26 xnub wrote:On April 07 2010 08:06 kidcrash wrote:
They made slow not effect massive units from a lore perspective, I 100% guarantee it. There was no need to be creative because these was nothing to be solved.
Yes marauders will still kite the hell out of zealots but..
1. The rush will come later. Every second counts and if you have to wait a full minute for the upgrade to complete, this gives ample time to prepare.
2. 100/100 for an upgrade is 4 marauders worth of gas. Meaning when the rush does come it will have less marauders.
3. Late game is completely unaffected. fisrt thing the terran will get will be the upgrade and due to the fact that is on the tech lab as soon as he can get marauders he can get the upgrade. Also the upgrades not going to be anything super long it will just push the rush back maybe 1 min. Before this one min time the terran can still send in marauders to force the T to build units if he build stalkers good marauders counter them if he builds zealots good in 30 sec you will counter them run away come back in 30's you delayed him on his tech. I mean you can rush the toss base as soon as you get 2-4 marauders right now and put him on his back so much. This upgrade would need to be like 3 mins or 2.30 to alow him to get up in that tech. and a 2.30 - 3 min upgrade is just not going to happen. Also still haveing only 1 real counter to the marauder after that upgrade not very good. Would rather see the unit that is made to counter them counter them. Also you would still not see a mix of units agian would still just be all marauders and not a mix. Agreed, it would still be only marauders. That's why something else small would need to be done to make them less tank like. Something as simple as a 25 drop in HP, along with making slow down an upgrade, would suffice. But please for the love of god, give the siege tank (or marines and reactors) some love if this happens, we need to give terran another real option to go to other than marauder. I just don't want to see melee immune to slow. Why dumb down the game and decrease chances for micro when you can just make the abuse less harsh overall. You have to consider the cost for this upgrade cutting into stim as well, that makes a huge difference when rushing. I know the 25 gas for the marauder is easy to set aside. If you really think this wouldn't impact the rush enough, maybe making the upgrade 150/150 instead of 100/100 is needed. You'd absolutely have to lower siege tank gas at that point. I admit, melee being immune to the slow effect is the only other solution that has the best overall (early/mid/late game) balance. Just seems like adding an upgrade would add timing/depth to the game as opposed to taking things out of it.
yep could add some more to game if it was a upgrade but it just doesn't fix the problem. You will never see anything else beside marauders in tvp if thats all you do is the upgrade. If you nerf the HP it hurts the end game and hurts ZvT were roachs hydra allready eats thro your MMM balls very well.
Making melee immune to slow would bring back some micro and kill the kiteing micro you would still use the slow for running away (run shoot run shoot) or catch units when they run like a juicy HT or w/e. Also you will need to micro those front units out of melee range dmg when they get low also have to micro out of surrounds. Both of these things you don't really do cause you just shoot kite them to death. Don't really think it dumbs down the game at all right now you need more apm to do these things and alot less to kite the heal out of zealots zerglings lol.
But really this is the easyest and only way you can really make the MM come back and not just going marauder without effecting so much else in the game or leaveing the problem there and not getting the MM balance back. Just really can't have this one unit killing ever gateway unit : /
Also i still really like that armor reduction thing in place of the slow would be really cool but hard to put in and prob be alot harder to balance then the slow : P.
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Again, slow is not the problem. In SC1, pure marine/medic vs pure goon/lot. if you had equal resources of each, the M&M would almost always win. Again, make it much like SC1, where one storm or two shots from collosus can kill stimmed maurauders. Heck, you can keep the maurauder HP the same, just increase the HP penalty for stim for maurauders.
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On April 07 2010 09:27 hacpee wrote:
Again, slow is not the problem. In SC1, pure marine/medic vs pure goon/lot. if you had equal resources of each, the M&M would almost always win. Again, make it much like SC1, where one storm or two shots from collosus can kill stimmed maurauders. Heck, you can keep the maurauder HP the same, just increase the HP penalty for stim for maurauders.
if you think slow is not the problem you don't play much or watch many cast lol
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I play Terran, and the two things I've observed is that the Marauder is too useful, and the Hellion is not useful enough. The Marauder is a catch-all unit, even more so than the Marine's role in SC1. Meanwhile the Hellion is good against what? 3 units in the whole game? (banelings, zerglings, and zealots, Reapers don't count since Marauders counter them anyway).
There's no doubt that the Marauder is a boring, linear unit. If Blizzard plays around with with the Marauder and the Hellion a bit, they could diversify Terran's early game options while balancing out the Marauder.
Even if the Marauder was "balanced" (as in, it has a counter), it's still not balanced because Terran are so dependent on it.
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On April 07 2010 13:19 AgmLauncher wrote:
I play Terran, and the two things I've observed is that the Marauder is too useful, and the Hellion is not useful enough. The Marauder is a catch-all unit, even more so than the Marine's role in SC1. Meanwhile the Hellion is good against what? 3 units in the whole game? (banelings, zerglings, and zealots, Reapers don't count since Marauders counter them anyway).
There's no doubt that the Marauder is a boring, linear unit. If Blizzard plays around with with the Marauder and the Hellion a bit, they could diversify Terran's early game options while balancing out the Marauder.
Even if the Marauder was "balanced" (as in, it has a counter), it's still not balanced because Terran are so dependent on it.
IMO Hellions are more underused than underpowered. I bet you could make a solid build opening Hellions every game vs both Protoss and Zerg. Maybe not Reactor Hellions, but single Factory and at least 1 Hellion to scout + force your opponent to defend and possibly make [more] units he might otherwise not want to make.
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On April 07 2010 13:28 CowGoMoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 13:19 AgmLauncher wrote:
I play Terran, and the two things I've observed is that the Marauder is too useful, and the Hellion is not useful enough. The Marauder is a catch-all unit, even more so than the Marine's role in SC1. Meanwhile the Hellion is good against what? 3 units in the whole game? (banelings, zerglings, and zealots, Reapers don't count since Marauders counter them anyway).
There's no doubt that the Marauder is a boring, linear unit. If Blizzard plays around with with the Marauder and the Hellion a bit, they could diversify Terran's early game options while balancing out the Marauder.
Even if the Marauder was "balanced" (as in, it has a counter), it's still not balanced because Terran are so dependent on it. IMO Hellions are more underused than underpowered. I bet you could make a solid build opening Hellions every game vs both Protoss and Zerg. Maybe not Reactor Hellions, but single Factory and at least 1 Hellion to scout + force your opponent to defend and possibly make [more] units he might otherwise not want to make.
Hellions vs toss is a bit strange if he trys to prox you or rush zealots he is fucked by by workers and all zealots. After that not really that usefull in the mix of your units. But are still great for drop harsment or scouting map.
Vs zerg they are insane good hard counter to zerg and are ok vs hydras. 1 rax into fax into reac fax pump out hellions go go.
Think hellions are in a really good place /shrug try them out more they will grow on ya
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I have to agree with you Xnub, but I really don't see how the slow can be balanced. Not sure how they'd work out which units were slow'able (armored units?), but it feels like that is a messy solution. I really don't think the slow is something they can balance well. It's really just an anti-micro ability for the terran's opponent, forcing him to loose anything in range while retreating, and gererally wreaking havok with his ability to rotation units to and from the front while in combat.
Honestly, the dev team has it's work cut out for it on this one. There clearly needs to be a big re-work of this unit to bring it in line and make it something terran don't want to mass without destroying the necessity to build any of them.
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On April 07 2010 16:14 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:
Honestly, the dev team has it's work cut out for it on this one. There clearly needs to be a big re-work of this unit to bring it in line and make it something terran don't want to mass without destroying the necessity to build any of them.
I agree completely, but the question is: Do we see Blizzard making such a big change? I really don't think so, especially because they have already done 7 patches with all those little balance-changes that would be ruined by 1 big change like this.
I hope I am wrong on this one, but I really think blizz won't do a big change like that, although they said that they would if it was necessary, which it clearly is,
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Vs zerg they are insane good hard counter to zerg and are ok vs hydras. 1 rax into fax into reac fax pump out hellions go go.
But if he makes roaches which 95% of players do (especially if they scout you), then you've just wasted a ton of minerals on a unit that has been rendered obsolete, and double obsolete when Mutas hit the field. You can easily kite Roaches with Hellions, but they do so little damage that you're just wasting your attention/APM at that point.
If I had my choice between 100 minerals for a Hellion and 100 minerals for a Marauder, the Marauder is by far the better choice. I realize Marauders cost gas, but not that much.
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On April 07 2010 16:54 AgmLauncher wrote:Show nested quote +Vs zerg they are insane good hard counter to zerg and are ok vs hydras. 1 rax into fax into reac fax pump out hellions go go. But if he makes roaches which 95% of players do (especially if they scout you), then you've just wasted a ton of minerals on a unit that has been rendered obsolete, and double obsolete when Mutas hit the field. You can easily kite Roaches with Hellions, but they do so little damage that you're just wasting your attention/APM at that point. If I had my choice between 100 minerals for a Hellion and 100 minerals for a Marauder, the Marauder is by far the better choice. I realize Marauders cost gas, but not that much.
But the fun in it is that with playing Hellions, you force the Z into making SpineCrawlers or Roaches, which get raped by the Marauder.... It's just countering the counter with a counter... But that way you can also let a computer play, because it's just so unimaginative and boring...
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Agreed, however the point is that if you have gone reactor and make anything more than like 3-4 hellions, you've wasted your money and hurt yourself just as much as you've "hurt" your opponent by forcing him to make roaches/spines. Hellions simply become obsolete very quickly. A unit shouldn't exist for the sole purpose of making your opponent do something and then become obsolete.
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just make them cost a lot more gas and slow be an upgrade. Problem solved. This way terran would be forced to go early heavy gas and sacrifice economy in order to go all marauder.
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United Kingdom12047 Posts
On April 07 2010 18:01 AgmLauncher wrote:
Agreed, however the point is that if you have gone reactor and make anything more than like 3-4 hellions, you've wasted your money and hurt yourself just as much as you've "hurt" your opponent by forcing him to make roaches/spines. Hellions simply become obsolete very quickly. A unit shouldn't exist for the sole purpose of making your opponent do something and then become obsolete.
Then again, you could always lift the factory and use the reactor for a starport or rax, so it's not too bad.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 07 2010 05:10 QibingZero wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 01:57 MorroW wrote:On April 06 2010 22:41 Plexa wrote:On April 06 2010 22:34 Zato-1 wrote:On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote:
Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not. On April 06 2010 20:09 MorroW wrote:
why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine?
ur killing every single rush possibility of the terran by doing this, marine bunker rush? yea right like thats gonna happen when bunks r 30 and rines r 25 I feel this is an interesting point there should be more discussion about- after all, you'll never be able to agree on fixes for the Marauder if you can't first agree on what's the problem with the Marauder (if any). Do Terrans have the capacity to be the aggressors most of the time in TvP? Are Protoss just as capable of putting the pressure on Terrans, or maybe even more so? Let's try to figure this out constructively. Early pressure tactics mentioned so far include: PvT: + Show Spoiler +- Proxy gates
- Cannon rushes
- Early Void Rays
- Proxy DTs
- Other ground unit combos (gateway units + immortals) TvP: + Show Spoiler +- Reaper rush
- Marauder rush
- Proxy barracks
- Bunker rush
- Early banshees
- Drops Just as important as the number of ways you can put early pressure on your opponent is, how effective are these strats? If we can get a good grasp on how strong P early pressure is compared to T early pressure, we can get past the first hurdle, namely: agree on what the problem is. Excellent post. I'll try redirect the thread in this direction. great pos except its not true -drops? ive never seen any terran ever going fast drop against toss, why would u do it? how can this be effective. scratch this off the list because fast drop by terran is just as likely and just as effective as a fast drop by toss (which ive seen alot more of) bunker rush? same here, ive never seen a bunker rush. a bunker takes 30 seconds to make and scvs got 45 hp. even if bunker rush was possible it would include in the proxi rax so it wouldnt qualify as 2 so in effective rushes (that qualify imo) PvT: + Show Spoiler +- Proxy gates
- Cannon rushes
- Early Void Rays
- Proxy DTs
- Other ground unit combos (gateway units + immortals) TvP: + Show Spoiler +- Reaper rush
- Marauder rush
- Proxy barracks
- Early banshees if u remove academy PvT: + Show Spoiler +- Proxy gates
- Cannon rushes
- Early Void Rays
- Proxy DTs
- Other ground unit combos (gateway units + immortals) TvP: + Show Spoiler +- Proxy barracks
- Early banshees and this is my point On April 06 2010 23:06 Tyrran wrote:On April 06 2010 22:41 Plexa wrote:On April 06 2010 22:34 Zato-1 wrote:On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote:
Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not. On April 06 2010 20:09 MorroW wrote:
why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine?
ur killing every single rush possibility of the terran by doing this, marine bunker rush? yea right like thats gonna happen when bunks r 30 and rines r 25 I feel this is an interesting point there should be more discussion about- after all, you'll never be able to agree on fixes for the Marauder if you can't first agree on what's the problem with the Marauder (if any). Do Terrans have the capacity to be the aggressors most of the time in TvP? Are Protoss just as capable of putting the pressure on Terrans, or maybe even more so? Let's try to figure this out constructively. Early pressure tactics mentioned so far include: PvT: + Show Spoiler +- Proxy gates
- Cannon rushes
- Early Void Rays
- Proxy DTs
- Other ground unit combos (gateway units + immortals) TvP: + Show Spoiler +- Reaper rush
- Marauder rush
- Proxy barracks
- Bunker rush
- Early banshees
- Drops Just as important as the number of ways you can put early pressure on your opponent is, how effective are these strats? If we can get a good grasp on how strong P early pressure is compared to T early pressure, we can get past the first hurdle, namely: agree on what the problem is. Excellent post. I'll try redirect the thread in this direction. Once again, as a Z player, i will give my insigth on the ZvT matchup. Before anyone ask, I am a ~1150 platinum player. Not a great player, but not a bad one either. In the beginning of the beta, every one thougth that Marine > Hydra > Marauders > Roaches > Marines.This led to great mixed armies as each player tried to have the perfect mix of hydra/roaches and marines. However, nowadays, more and more people realizes that Marauders = Hydras. SO there is basically no need for marines anymore until mutas ( wich cant be rushed or the marauder push will just rape the Z , plus mutas does very little damage to marauders so they will deal a LOT of damage before deing) I have nothing against Marauder being core of the T army. But my current concern is that the marauder makes the marines useless. This is somewhat true in ZvT, and seems to be even more of a concern in ZvP ( but i will let TvPs expert confirm this.). tl:dr : Marauder strength makes the marine useless. totally agree. this is the problem i have with marauders, ever since patch 6 they took the thunder away from the marines totally On April 07 2010 00:18 slimshady wrote:Actually, I like this idea: the zealot's charge being immune to the marauder's slow effect. Zealots won't be so useless vs marauders.  the problem is whenever marauders get charged they can just back for 2-3 seconds and zealot wont get an attack off and they r back to square 1. zealots themselves cant touch the marauders in a battle like this without flank or high numbers that causes ai issues to the marauders, the charge doesnt do squat even if it wasnt slowed A couple things you mention here bring up a relevant note: I often employ a quick drop/stim strategy on Desert Oasis (though I dislike the map in general), and I find it to be quite effective. I agree that on most maps, this type of thing isn't really that effective. At the very least, on Oasis it keeps the toss occupied while I expand, and the rush distance is so long that even if you lose most of your force you'll have macroed enough by the time the toss army gets to you. I ended up in such a situation, against Plexa of all people, in a ladder match yesterday, and early zealot charge was actually the deciding factor in him holding off my drop. If he had gone Immortal heavy, the game probably would have been over. Zealots just take so little damage from Marauders, and are very effective as long as you have units that can take shots at the Marauders while they micro away. Overall on this issue, I think the only problem really is the early game. When it gets to late game, PvT is largely balanced (though small micro mistakes on either side can be game-ending). The issue for Terran is that if you nerf Marauders (even by just requiring another building for them), something has to be done to help out Terran early on. Marines and SCVs have already taken huge hits, and it's difficult enough to micro off early pressure with them now. In case anyone is wondering here is the replay:
http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/sc2_reps/Plexa_vs_QibingZero.sc2replay
I see we still haven't settled on what is the problem with the Marauder. Again, I think it is how strong they are early game - which can be easily fixed by increasing the tech lab build time and cost (to 50/50, a modest increase!). Furthermore, I think charge should be made more accessible but I think that might just be my protoss bias seeping through - 150/150 like blink would make me happy. I say make charge more accessible since it means Zealots can fight against Marauder since their base speed is boosted to the same as the stalker (fast than marauder) and charge always helps!
Other than the early game issues, PvT is fine in the midgame/lategame and it becomes real battle of skill (which is what we all want, right?). Nerfing the Marauder in any long standing way will just hurt this - HP nerfs, removing stimpack and whatnot are not the answer. Slow as an upgrade might be, but I think a simple increase in tech lab build time will suffice (and deal with the reaper cheese while we are at it).
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On April 07 2010 13:19 AgmLauncher wrote:
I play Terran, and the two things I've observed is that the Marauder is too useful, and the Hellion is not useful enough. The Marauder is a catch-all unit, even more so than the Marine's role in SC1. Meanwhile the Hellion is good against what? 3 units in the whole game? (banelings, zerglings, and zealots, Reapers don't count since Marauders counter them anyway).
There's no doubt that the Marauder is a boring, linear unit. If Blizzard plays around with with the Marauder and the Hellion a bit, they could diversify Terran's early game options while balancing out the Marauder.
Even if the Marauder was "balanced" (as in, it has a counter), it's still not balanced because Terran are so dependent on it.
Hellions dont counter banelings at all... when a ling turns from ling to baneling they drop the (light armor) and just become Bio.. so hellions dont do any bonus damage to them.. and the baneling does bonus damage to the hellions.. and dont say "just gotta micro them" tested with psyonic_reaver there not a counter as long as the banelings have speed upgrade your just asking to get rocked >_<
hellions cant even beat banelings 200 v 200 pop~ 
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I see we still haven't settled on what is the problem with the Marauder. Again, I think it is how strong they are early game - which can be easily fixed by increasing the tech lab build time and cost (to 50/50, a modest increase!). Furthermore, I think charge should be made more accessible but I think that might just be my protoss bias seeping through - 150/150 like blink would make me happy. I say make charge more accessible since it means Zealots can fight against Marauder since their base speed is boosted to the same as the stalker (fast than marauder) and charge always helps!
Other than the early game issues, PvT is fine in the midgame/lategame and it becomes real battle of skill (which is what we all want, right?). Nerfing the Marauder in any long standing way will just hurt this - HP nerfs, removing stimpack and whatnot are not the answer. Slow as an upgrade might be, but I think a simple increase in tech lab build time will suffice (and deal with the reaper cheese while we are at it).
Like your idea of increasing tech lab cost and build time because it makes the reactor a little more appealing. Only problem is that I just don't see that as enough. An upgrade for slow down gives your opponent a solid cushion for getting ready. Increasing tech lab cost and build time seems like it would barely makes a dent at all. Again, solid idea but maybe a bit too modest, as you said.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 07 2010 19:17 kidcrash wrote:Show nested quote +I see we still haven't settled on what is the problem with the Marauder. Again, I think it is how strong they are early game - which can be easily fixed by increasing the tech lab build time and cost (to 50/50, a modest increase!). Furthermore, I think charge should be made more accessible but I think that might just be my protoss bias seeping through - 150/150 like blink would make me happy. I say make charge more accessible since it means Zealots can fight against Marauder since their base speed is boosted to the same as the stalker (fast than marauder) and charge always helps!
Other than the early game issues, PvT is fine in the midgame/lategame and it becomes real battle of skill (which is what we all want, right?). Nerfing the Marauder in any long standing way will just hurt this - HP nerfs, removing stimpack and whatnot are not the answer. Slow as an upgrade might be, but I think a simple increase in tech lab build time will suffice (and deal with the reaper cheese while we are at it). Like your idea of increasing tech lab cost and build time because it makes the reactor a little more appealing. Only problem is that I just don't see that as enough. An upgrade for slow down gives your opponent a solid cushion for getting ready. Increasing tech lab cost and build time seems like it barely makes a dent at all. Again, solid idea but maybe a bit too modest, as you said.
The issue is what problem do you have in mind that needs to be solved? In my mind it's simply that the rushes are too powerful and slowing them down should alleviate that. However, you may think there is a different issue at hand - in which case do share!
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On April 07 2010 19:21 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 19:17 kidcrash wrote:I see we still haven't settled on what is the problem with the Marauder. Again, I think it is how strong they are early game - which can be easily fixed by increasing the tech lab build time and cost (to 50/50, a modest increase!). Furthermore, I think charge should be made more accessible but I think that might just be my protoss bias seeping through - 150/150 like blink would make me happy. I say make charge more accessible since it means Zealots can fight against Marauder since their base speed is boosted to the same as the stalker (fast than marauder) and charge always helps!
Other than the early game issues, PvT is fine in the midgame/lategame and it becomes real battle of skill (which is what we all want, right?). Nerfing the Marauder in any long standing way will just hurt this - HP nerfs, removing stimpack and whatnot are not the answer. Slow as an upgrade might be, but I think a simple increase in tech lab build time will suffice (and deal with the reaper cheese while we are at it). Like your idea of increasing tech lab cost and build time because it makes the reactor a little more appealing. Only problem is that I just don't see that as enough. An upgrade for slow down gives your opponent a solid cushion for getting ready. Increasing tech lab cost and build time seems like it barely makes a dent at all. Again, solid idea but maybe a bit too modest, as you said. The issue is what problem do you have in mind that needs to be solved? In my mind it's simply that the rushes are too powerful and slowing them down should alleviate that. However, you may think there is a different issue at hand - in which case do share!
No I would agree, that is the issue. I would also agree that your suggested changes do solve that problem, as well as making reactors more appealing in comparison. Just seems like this would barely be enough to slow down these powerful rushes and that something a *bit* more time consuming (like an upgrade) would be needed.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Well the current state of things has it that you can get Marauders out and to the Protoss base before the Protoss can get his first Stalker - that's an issue which should be solved with an increase tech lab time. If issues remain once that possibility is removed then yea, upgrades would be the next step.
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