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On April 06 2010 23:53 Tdelamay wrote:
A small idea, what if the special effect of the marauder was to reduce armor instead of slowing down? IT would reduce armor down to a maximum of 0.
That would turn marauder into a good support unit with marines. Each marine shot would deal more damage to high armor units (roaches).
i really like this idea, this would also make them still counter roaches, but as a support unit mixed with marines
and ppl should really stop to calculate dps, its pretty silly.
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On April 07 2010 05:57 suejak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 05:52 xnub wrote:On April 07 2010 05:48 suejak wrote:
Nahh, just make charge zealots and speedlings immune to slow. Problem solved. Does not fix the early game for toss does for zerg makes it fine. But ya toss still will ahve the same problem they allready go right for speed somtimes they can't get it intime before they get overrun by marauders. This is why i say just make them plain immune to slow all melee units or just the 2 tier 1 units. You could say make the charge upgrade faster or somthing but hard to make it super fast were it is and also it really does make them much stronge vs rines to so ya don't need that till mid/late game. Don't want to make the zealots to stronge Is there really no way for protoss to just play defensive against marauders until charge comes out? Maybe a little cannon/sentry action?
na thats why it s a gay cheese lol
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On April 07 2010 06:03 xnub wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 05:57 suejak wrote:On April 07 2010 05:52 xnub wrote:On April 07 2010 05:48 suejak wrote:
Nahh, just make charge zealots and speedlings immune to slow. Problem solved. Does not fix the early game for toss does for zerg makes it fine. But ya toss still will ahve the same problem they allready go right for speed somtimes they can't get it intime before they get overrun by marauders. This is why i say just make them plain immune to slow all melee units or just the 2 tier 1 units. You could say make the charge upgrade faster or somthing but hard to make it super fast were it is and also it really does make them much stronge vs rines to so ya don't need that till mid/late game. Don't want to make the zealots to stronge Is there really no way for protoss to just play defensive against marauders until charge comes out? Maybe a little cannon/sentry action? na thats why it s a gay cheese lol
It is a, to borrow your eloquent phraseology, "gay cheese" only without charge making them immune. Then it's just a particular early tactic that can be countered pretty well with zealots and templars later.
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On April 07 2010 05:54 xnub wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 05:51 FREEloss_ca wrote:On April 07 2010 05:49 Killmour wrote:
I just wish they could come out and say what their plan is on the whole thing. If things stay the way they are things will be pretty boring. It will be possible to not mass a-move those units, but it won't be nearly as viable. As the Roach and Marauder situation stands now, it CANNOT go live IMO. It needs to be fixed. It's going to be bad for the game, especially at high level competitive play. high lvl players are doing fine ... only thing that is messing with them seems to be the early marauder cheese. Also ZvZ is boring tho kill ultra bring back lurker /shrug lol joking short of : P
It's not fine in terms of viability of different unit mixes and tech tree choices. Marauders and Roaches are the core units every game of every matchup. It's boring and uncreative. The game has no room to grow when all you need are Roaches or Marauders.
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That's incorrect. According to that chart a marauder stimmed deals 29.99 dps to armored targets whereas 2 rines deal 21 dps.
The fact that a rine will die after 35-45 damage will also pre-emptively cut down on their dps because a marauder's dps output remains at maximum for quite a bit longer.
So: Stimmed dps:
10 - Marauder v Light
20 - Rines vs anything
30 - Marauder v armored.
This is discounting armor, of course, which is fairly important. Rines at equal mineral cost take twice the hit from armor that marauders do because of their larger numbers.
Your reading it wrong aslo you are looking at fully upgraded 3 of 3 but at fully upgrade
1 rine does 15.69 vs light x 2 does 31.38 Not to mention cheaper and shorter build time.
1 marauder does 13.00 vs light then 25.99 vs a armored target
and yes this is not counting armor reduction but only the starting armor comes into effect cause you get upgrades like they do.
with stim and fully upgraded
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Also you did not read the spread sheet marauders don't have a dps of 20 nore marines of 6. Also yes armor does come into play but as they get upgrades you get upgrades. Also its only the roachs that effects it with its 2 armor early game. So marine marauder is floped around there. As it should be they are made to be the dmg vs armored /shrug
Had I intended in my Analysis example to use Marauders and Marines I would have called them Marauders and Marines not 20 DPS unit and 6 DPS unit. I was merely indicating the effect of armor on mass low damage units OR fast attacking low damage vs slower harder hitting attacks.
Best way to show it was to assume the units had IDENTICAL DPS. Obviously this is not the case with Marines and Marauders.
I also was indicating why even with lower DPS Marauder are superior to Marines vs Melee units.
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On April 07 2010 06:10 FREEloss_ca wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 05:54 xnub wrote:On April 07 2010 05:51 FREEloss_ca wrote:On April 07 2010 05:49 Killmour wrote:
I just wish they could come out and say what their plan is on the whole thing. If things stay the way they are things will be pretty boring. It will be possible to not mass a-move those units, but it won't be nearly as viable. As the Roach and Marauder situation stands now, it CANNOT go live IMO. It needs to be fixed. It's going to be bad for the game, especially at high level competitive play. high lvl players are doing fine ... only thing that is messing with them seems to be the early marauder cheese. Also ZvZ is boring tho kill ultra bring back lurker /shrug lol joking short of : P It's not fine in terms of viability of different unit mixes and tech tree choices. Marauders and Roaches are the core units every game of every matchup. It's boring and uncreative. The game has no room to grow when all you need are Roaches or Marauders.
most games i have watch i and watch like 10 a day its freaking redick.
But ya see lots zerglings and hydras in zerg play as well
terran most times they tend to go hellions/mech or bio a pure mix between MMM or if its toss ya the marauder cheese that we are talking about and saying needs a fix early game late is fine. See viks ghost marines marauders medvacs banshess harsments /shrug
http://www.livestream.com/striderdoom/video?clipId=pla_5e009893-2d7a-45f8-b043-3e1c88d85488
he has some good videos lots of cool shit going down think the game is doing good for so early in the beta
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I also was indicating why even with lower DPS Marauder are superior to Marines vs Melee units.
yep they are vs melee units i 100000 % agree thats why i have been pushing the immune to slow on melee units.
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Adding exceptions like "not on melee units" really is bad for the game as a whole. I'd much prefer alternative solutions. We already have the "not on massive" anyways, two additional rules are a bit much. It doesn't even make sense, why would it slow a roach but not a zergling?
The only change I would support here would be "only slow armored units" - but Marauders kill armored units anyways, no need for slow on those.
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On April 07 2010 06:28 spinesheath wrote:
Adding exceptions like "not on melee units" really is bad for the game as a whole. I'd much prefer alternative solutions. We already have the "not on massive" anyways, two additional rules are a bit much. It doesn't even make sense, why would it slow a roach but not a zergling?
The only change I would support here would be "only slow armored units" - but Marauders kill armored units anyways, no need for slow on those.
Slow on only armored would still be usefull could still kite roachs and could still pick off running units really well.
But i still like just the melee immune. Its the easyest it does not effect much of the late game. Fixes the early game. Forces terran to go MM mix agian. Pushes them more towards fav on mech as well.
Also there are lots of exceptions in sc2 i mean it helps balance there is nothing wrong with if it fixes stuff.
Also lore and shit does not have a place in a RTS balance why doesn't the thor just step on zerglings ? why doesn't the big missle blow the guy arpart with no armor instead of doing less dmg to him. lots things are like wtf if you think of it. Also if you want they train in the melee arts they have learned how to not be slowed in there attacks ! lol /shrug
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On April 07 2010 06:15 xnub wrote:Show nested quote +
I also was indicating why even with lower DPS Marauder are superior to Marines vs Melee units.
yep they are vs melee units i 100000 % agree thats why i have been pushing the immune to slow on melee units.
Also a good Idea, especially if you look at the "Help" ingame, where it says that the Zealot is supposed to be the counter to Marauders. xD
It would also more or less only change the early game and if you look at zerglings which come in big masses anyways, the most changes would be that you can now play Zealots against Marauders and not always go for Immortals or a ridiculous number of sentrys to make the Zealots able to handle the Marauders.
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On April 07 2010 06:38 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 06:15 xnub wrote:
I also was indicating why even with lower DPS Marauder are superior to Marines vs Melee units.
yep they are vs melee units i 100000 % agree thats why i have been pushing the immune to slow on melee units. Also a good Idea, especially if you look at the "Help" ingame, where it says that the Zealot is supposed to be the counter to Marauders. xD It would also more or less only change the early game and if you look at zerglings which come in big masses anyways, the most changes would be that you can now play Zealots against Marauders and not always go for Immortals or a ridiculous number of sentrys to make the Zealots able to handle the Marauders.
yarp
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On April 07 2010 06:10 xnub wrote:Show nested quote +
That's incorrect. According to that chart a marauder stimmed deals 29.99 dps to armored targets whereas 2 rines deal 21 dps.
The fact that a rine will die after 35-45 damage will also pre-emptively cut down on their dps because a marauder's dps output remains at maximum for quite a bit longer.
So: Stimmed dps:
10 - Marauder v Light
20 - Rines vs anything
30 - Marauder v armored.
This is discounting armor, of course, which is fairly important. Rines at equal mineral cost take twice the hit from armor that marauders do because of their larger numbers.
Your reading it wrong aslo you are looking at fully upgraded 3 of 3 but at fully upgrade 1 rine does 15.69 vs light x 2 does 31.38 Not to mention cheaper and shorter build time. 1 marauder does 13.00 vs light then 25.99 vs a armored target and yes this is not counting armor reduction but only the starting armor comes into effect cause you get upgrades like they do. with stim and fully upgraded You're right regarding the bonus dps column; its the total dps of the base + the bonus, not just the bonus portion.
That said, using 3/3 ups examine the difference between the units doesn't make sense seeing as the majority of tech paths and preferences for rax units are going to be decided by the effectiveness of the units at 0/0 or with a single upg. At 0/0 the rine and marauder deal the same damage to armored units, but the marauder doesn't lose half its dps when it takes 35-45 damage and takes far less aoe damage which is a huge consideration.
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You're right regarding the bonus dps column; its the total dps of the base + the bonus, not just the bonus portion.
That said, using 3/3 ups examine the difference between the units doesn't make sense seeing as the majority of tech paths and preferences for rax units are going to be decided by the effectiveness of the units at 0/0 or with a single upg. At 0/0 the rine and marauder deal the same damage to armored units, but the marauder doesn't lose half its dps when it takes 35-45 damage and takes far less aoe damage which is a huge consideration.
the coloum i was look at was 3/3 with stim up yes none stim no upgrades is
1 rine 6.97 and 2 rines is 13.94
1 marauder is 6.67 light armored is 13.33
early game saves you gas for other things saves a few min less build time and rapes light. making marauders slow not work on zealots and zerglings will make people want to get the cheaper quicker rines when still getting a few marauders for the armor and as the meat shield. will want a more balanced army. early and mid game.
Also yes when you get into late game and aoe spells like HSM and fungle growth and storm pop up then you will want to move away from more rines and get more mech and air units or bigger ratio of marauders to marines. Those spells are made to counter the masses of tier 1 or low hp units its what they do. Just like any other race does the same thing to not go a 90 % hydra army with a HSM or a storm comes and boom lol even if they do more dmg then the roachs. So things stay the same cause that is reaction people have to those spells right now /shrug
once you remove slow from the melee units balanced mm will come back into play.
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Having slow not effect melee units is a very uncreative solution. It's like saying "storm is too overpowered against zerglings so we'll make it not affect them". Yes I agree lore has no point in balancing RTS but this one just sticks out as a sore thumb. So it doesn't affect massive units or small melee units but everything in between. That just sounds like a logical inconsistency to me.
I still think the perfect solution is a 100/100 upgrade at the tech lab, then trim 25 gas off the tank cost to compensate. Problem solved. Marauder still equally as effective late game. Protoss has a chance for equal footing early game (in regards to who can fast expand, who is the aggressor).
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On April 07 2010 07:41 kidcrash wrote:
Having slow not effect melee units is a very uncreative solution. It's like saying "storm is too overpowered against zerglings so we'll make it not affect them". Yes I agree lore has no point in balancing RTS but this one just sticks out as a sore thumb. So it doesn't affect massive units or small melee units but everything in between. That just sounds like a logical inconsistency to me.
I still think the perfect solution is a 100/100 upgrade at the tech lab, then trim 25 gas off the tank cost to compensate. Problem solved. Marauder still equally as effective late game. Protoss has a chance for equal footing early game (in regards to who can fast expand, who is the aggressor).
but marauders still kite the hell out of zealots problem still there ....
And they did think storm was to OP vs zerg and terran so they nerfed its size not very creative ethier. Also like you said they didn't want slow to effect these end tier units so they made massive to mkae them immune to slow not very creative there ethier if you go by what you seem to think is uncreative.
If it fixes the problem without any big effects to the mid/late game its all good.
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They made slow not effect massive units from a lore perspective, I 100% guarantee it. There was no need to be creative because these was nothing to be solved.
Yes marauders will still kite the hell out of zealots but..
1. The rush will come later. Every second counts and if you have to wait a full minute for the upgrade to complete, this gives ample time to prepare.
2. 100/100 for an upgrade is 4 marauders worth of gas. Meaning when the rush does come it will have less marauders.
3. Late game is completely unaffected.
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Also yes when you get into late game and aoe spells like HSM and fungle growth and storm pop up then you will want to move away from more rines and get more mech and air units or bigger ratio of marauders to marines. It isn't just an issue when you get aoe, its an issue always.
Vs armored, marauders would be superior even without the slow because not only are they doing equal dps, but it takes a full 105 damage before marauders start losing dps. Additionally, they lose far less damage to armor. Roaches are the best example; You wouldn't want to make marauders vs roaches because you're afraid of aoe; you'd want to make them because a far larger percentage of their damage gets past roach armor and they take far more hits to before going down.
Factoring in medivacs and armor, the durability effect is amplified further.
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On April 07 2010 08:06 kidcrash wrote:
They made slow not effect massive units from a lore perspective, I 100% guarantee it. There was no need to be creative because these was nothing to be solved.
Yes marauders will still kite the hell out of zealots but..
1. The rush will come later. Every second counts and if you have to wait a full minute for the upgrade to complete, this gives ample time to prepare.
2. 100/100 for an upgrade is 4 marauders worth of gas. Meaning when the rush does come it will have less marauders.
3. Late game is completely unaffected.
fisrt thing the terran will get will be the upgrade and due to the fact that is on the tech lab as soon as he can get marauders he can get the upgrade. Also the upgrades not going to be anything super long it will just push the rush back maybe 1 min. Before this one min time the terran can still send in marauders to force the T to build units if he build stalkers good marauders counter them if he builds zealots good in 30 sec you will counter them run away come back in 30's you delayed him on his tech.
I mean you can rush the toss base as soon as you get 2-4 marauders right now and put him on his back so much. This upgrade would need to be like 3 mins or 2.30 to alow him to get up in that tech. and a 2.30 - 3 min upgrade is just not going to happen. Also still haveing only 1 real counter to the marauder after that upgrade not very good.
Would rather see the unit that is made to counter them counter them. Also you would still not see a mix of units agian would still just be all marauders and not a mix.
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On April 07 2010 08:23 L wrote:Show nested quote +Also yes when you get into late game and aoe spells like HSM and fungle growth and storm pop up then you will want to move away from more rines and get more mech and air units or bigger ratio of marauders to marines. It isn't just an issue when you get aoe, its an issue always. Vs armored, marauders would be superior even without the slow because not only are they doing equal dps, but it takes a full 105 damage before marauders start losing dps. Additionally, they lose far less damage to armor. Roaches are the best example; You wouldn't want to make marauders vs roaches because you're afraid of aoe; you'd want to make them because a far larger percentage of their damage gets past roach armor and they take far more hits to before going down. Factoring in medivacs and armor, the durability effect is amplified further.
Not saying that you would ever want to get marines over marauders for killing armor units if you would that would be a bit wrong. Just people over estimate the marauders dps when it comes to armored and light units they think it will counter them both in terms of dps. when it cleary does not.
And why wouldn't you want to make marauders vs raochs they are great and i don't get the aoe thing. Also yes thats idea behind marauders they take more dmg before they die they are the meat sheild for the rines doing the dmg in the back to the hydras that are in the back of the roachs lol.
only reason people go full marauders right now is cause early game they have no counters.
Zealots and zerglings are the counter but they are kited due to slow as my fix will fix lol
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EPT
