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Totally agree here.
And it's not only the marauder strength that makes marines useless. You say marines aren't needed until mutas, but as of patch 7, thors are now a much better counter to mutas than marines, making marines even less needed in TvZ. And if you go MMM, then you already have the factory, just plop down a tech lab while making an armory, and make 2-3 thors to counter muta.
Marines are a perfectly viable solution to Mutas which don't leave you open to zerglings. Thors have a hard time dealing with lings. Marines also benefit from the same upgrades as Marauders, unlike thors.
You can't look at a unit in a vacuum. Mutas are gas heavy, so zerg usually accompanies them with mineral only speedlings. If you mass marines then you get hit by fungal growth / banelings, meaning u'll want ghosts vs Infestors OR More Marauders vs Banelings.
He switches to making infestors or banelings, you make some maraunders or ghosts. If he overdoes it, you switch to thors, as all the resources wasted on Banelings / Infestors mean less mutas and lings, making a few thors more viable.
It's the ebb and flow of SC. You react, they react...repeat.
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On April 07 2010 02:09 BlasiuS wrote:
Totally agree here.
And it's not only the marauder strength that makes marines useless. You say marines aren't needed until mutas, but as of patch 7, thors are now a much better counter to mutas than marines, making marines even less needed in TvZ. And if you go MMM, then you already have the factory, just plop down a tech lab while making an armory, and make 2-3 thors to counter muta.
You do realize Mutas are more effective post-patch 7 than pre-patch 7 against Thors if you split them properly, right? If Thors are the only anti-air you have, there's no downside to splitting up your mutas, making the Thor's AoE attack fairly useless. Thors are slow as all hell and will struggle to defend both your main force plus multiple bases from Mutas. There's also the fact that Void Rays, being armored, take little damage from Thors, and deal a lot of damage back to them, because they apply their bonus damage to armored. Thors do not make marines useless vs. Air, by a long shot- It's the marine's ground attack that is overshadowed, because they just aren't good enough compared to Marauders there.
@Morrow: If Marauder fast-expand is effective and Protoss have been rushing to Immortals to deal with it, doesn't it follow that Terrans are a lot stronger than Protoss in the early game? I mean, if they can afford to expand safely but Protoss can't, that would mean Marauders can hold the line even if you're spending a lot of resources on an expansion, while Protoss can't afford to do the same. Am I right in thinking this? Because even if in this strategy Protoss is the aggressor, that's only because Terran's choosing an economical opening, right?
On the other hand, if Terran chose a more marauder-heavy opening with no expansion, we can assume he would be the aggressor while the Protoss would have to play defensively, even if the Protoss didn't go for an economic opening. Please correct me if I'm wrong :p
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On April 07 2010 02:40 Daerthalus wrote:Show nested quote +Totally agree here.
And it's not only the marauder strength that makes marines useless. You say marines aren't needed until mutas, but as of patch 7, thors are now a much better counter to mutas than marines, making marines even less needed in TvZ. And if you go MMM, then you already have the factory, just plop down a tech lab while making an armory, and make 2-3 thors to counter muta. Marines are a perfectly viable solution to Mutas which don't leave you open to zerglings. Thors have a hard time dealing with lings. Marines also benefit from the same upgrades as Marauders, unlike thors. You can't look at a unit in a vacuum. Mutas are gas heavy, so zerg usually accompanies them with mineral only speedlings. If you mass marines then you get hit by fungal growth / banelings, meaning u'll want ghosts vs Infestors OR More Marauders vs Banelings. He switches to making infestors or banelings, you make some maraunders or ghosts. If he overdoes it, you switch to thors, as all the resources wasted on Banelings / Infestors mean less mutas and lings, making a few thors more viable. It's the ebb and flow of SC. You react, they react...repeat.
MedaMarauder deals with lings just fine, especially once you have +1 infantry armor, so it's not like you're somehow 'open' to zerglings if you make thors. Besides if you're having trouble with speedlings, hellions are far better against them than marines. Obviously I'm not simply looking at thor v muta without taking anything else into account -_-
Meanwhile banelings/fungal growth hard-counter marines HARD. Much harder than speedlings counter marauders. Not worth getting marines in TvZ. Anything they do you can do more efficiently with other units.
On April 07 2010 03:15 Zato-1 wrote:
You do realize Mutas are more effective post-patch 7 than pre-patch 7 against Thors if you split them properly, right? If Thors are the only anti-air you have, there's no downside to splitting up your mutas, making the Thor's AoE attack fairly useless. Thors are slow as all hell and will struggle to defend both your main force plus multiple bases from Mutas. There's also the fact that Void Rays, being armored, take little damage from Thors, and deal a lot of damage back to them, because they apply their bonus damage to armored. Thors do not make marines useless vs. Air, by a long shot- It's the marine's ground attack that is overshadowed, because they just aren't good enough compared to Marauders there.
I think you're overestimating the damage reduction of Thor's AA attack, and underestimating how effective its splash is. It's incredibly hard to separate out all your mutas against 2 or 3 thors.
I have yet to see a good zerg take advantage of thor's weaker attack using mutas. If you can provide a replay, great. There's plenty of high-level TvZ games out there that show how well thors counter muta, you can go look them up if you doubt thor's effectiveness against muta.
Turrets take care of muta harass at your bases.
I'm not even going to respond to the void rays comment, since I was only talking about TvZ.
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I guess everyone agrees that Marauders are the unit of choice in almost every tvz/tvp. They are fairly easily massable and don't have too many major weaknesses aside from air. Many will agree that they shouldn't be the only reasonable choice THAT often, not for balance reasons but for desgin/gameplay reasons.
Similar issues arise with Roaches.
So by nerfing both Marauders and Roaches other units will become comparatively more viable. This obviously creates balance issues that need to be addressed though. The most immediate change would be to nerf Imortal bonus damage because their main purpose is countering Marauders and Roaches. The Immortal probably isn't the only unit that needs to be fixed as a reaction though. If Marauders and Roaches are nerfed I expect a cascade of small nerfs/buffs here and there.
I advise that the only changes on Marauders/Roaches should be simple, namely attack speed, HP, build time.
Other changes like damage, resource/supply cost, range, movement speed can have extreme effects even with seemingly small changes. Since both Marauders and Roaches are core units in an army, such changes have the potential to mess up balance severely.
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I agree with Morrow. My vote:
Marauder:
Decrease slow effect from -50% to -33%
Increase build time by 5 seconds
Immortal:
Decrease bonus damage versus armored from +30 to +25
Roach:
Decrease starting armor from 2 to 1
EDIT: Reactor:
Decrease build time (not sure how much, but they're falling out of use now)
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On April 06 2010 17:33 abrasion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 03:09 xnub wrote:On April 05 2010 19:09 Paladia wrote:
Any reason why the Marauder easily beats Stalkers in 1v1 (and even more so in bigger fights) when they cost like half of what the Stalker does, yet they can be healed, stimmed, not EMPed and has a passive slow attack?
Don't come with something like "Stalker can attack air so its balanced" since there is never anything the Marauder would ever even want to attack in air in TvP, as the Protoss air is extremely lackluster. So even if they could attack air as well there would be no difference for the balance of the match-up.
As Stalker, Roach and Marauder are way too similar in design I would suggest making the Marauder melee (with some altered stats), that would balance it and make the tier 1.5 more unique. Marauders are the counter to stalkers .... it has been said so by blizzard deal with it ? Also blink harsment by stalkers is crazy and has sooo much potential. You can blink anywhere on map you have a obs. melee unit i don't even know what to say to that LOL How can you actually seriously propose Stalkers with blink vs Marauders? The build time for the council and the research time, even with chrono boost is ridiculous let alone the costs too.
Did not say that blink was to counter stalkers i said that marauders counter stalkers deal with it. Then other guy listed some things we could do with marauders so i just said hey look you have blink to do some cool things / usefull.
Altho i guess blink could help them run away : P lol
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I still think the following:
Immortal to 20+20 damage
Marauder to 8+12 damage and 100 HP
Roaches to 115 HP.
All 3 units mathematically remain balance vs eachother.
All 3 units are now slightly weaker vs other units, but still beat what they are supposed to beat.
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On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote:
Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not. I have no issues with Medivac/Marauder/Ghost being the core of Terran armies, Protoss have enough stuff to make it an even fight later on. Thus, I think that the best way to balance the Marauder (and potentially Reaper) is re-introduce the Merc Haven (or Academy) and make that building a prerequisite for building the Marauder. Perhaps adding slow as an upgrade there would be good too (as well as reaper speed, if you want to put the reaper there too). This slows down how fast Terran can get the Marauder and hence makes Rushes significantly weaker. It adds an extra tech building making them less attractive in TvZ (making Mech more favorable) and should iron out any problems in TvP.
Thoughts?
Think this would slow down marauders a bit to much. Roachs would overrun use with just marines and banlings bust would be .... intresting lol. Think the time we can get marauders is perfect the way it is.
Slow as a upgrade on a new building that you would have to build would be intresting i guess. But i still don't like having the maruder have no counter early game.
Still feel like slow not slowing melee units or just zealots/zerglings would still be the best. Quick easy. stop marauder cheese cold.
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On April 06 2010 20:09 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote:
Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not. I have no issues with Medivac/Marauder/Ghost being the core of Terran armies, Protoss have enough stuff to make it an even fight later on. Thus, I think that the best way to balance the Marauder (and potentially Reaper) is re-introduce the Merc Haven (or Academy) and make that building a prerequisite for building the Marauder. Perhaps adding slow as an upgrade there would be good too (as well as reaper speed, if you want to put the reaper there too). This slows down how fast Terran can get the Marauder and hence makes Rushes significantly weaker. It adds an extra tech building making them less attractive in TvZ (making Mech more favorable) and should iron out any problems in TvP.
Thoughts? why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine? terran already has a shitload of techbuildings, they spend so much time on tech i think its enough man this woudlnt change anything, it would just cost the terrans to tweak our bo alittle but nothing big and everything is back to the same ur killing every single rush possibility of the terran by doing this, marine bunker rush? yea right like thats gonna happen when bunks r 30 and rines r 25 all u would acomplish is to add another tech building with 0 upgrades in it afaik, or maybe u want to move all tech lab grades to the academy? its a tech lab its supposed to contain the upgrades... academy has no purpose in sc2 as long as the tech lab is here terran already has most upgrades and tech buildings needed to play in the game, ur not thinking far enough ;
Cause they have no HP and get raped by banlings, colos, storm HSM and fungle growth. Marauders need to be the meat with rines as the dps.
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On April 07 2010 04:08 The_Piper42 wrote:
I agree with Morrow. My vote:
Marauder:
Decrease slow effect from -50% to -33%
Increase build time by 5 seconds
Immortal:
Decrease bonus damage versus armored from +30 to +25
Roach:
Decrease starting armor from 2 to 1
EDIT: Reactor:
Decrease build time (not sure how much, but they're falling out of use now)
That would definitely be a step in the right direction, but my opinion is, that Units like Marauder, Roach and Immortal just need complete overhauls rather than little changes...
Also, it's not always about nerfing Units, but also buffing others, that maybe aren't direct counters.
Look at the Stalker for example - it's a versatile Unit, that's true, but compared to Marauder and Roach, the Stalker is just incredibly weak. It doesn't really matter that he has bigger range than Roach or can shoot in the Air when you are just being demolished by mass-marauders or mass-roaches. I mean; you pay 125/50 for a Unit that gets demolished by a Marauder, which is 100/25 and Roaches for the same investment pwn the Stalkers too. It's nice that Protoss has a versatile T1,5-Unit, but it's just sad that massing>>>strategical play in SC2 atm, so all the versatile Units can pretty much pack their bags and leave compared with the heavy-massfriendly Units that are in the game right now.
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On April 07 2010 04:37 Daerthalus wrote:
I still think the following:
Immortal to 20+20 damage
Marauder to 8+12 damage and 100 HP
Roaches to 115 HP.
All 3 units mathematically remain balance vs eachother.
All 3 units are now slightly weaker vs other units, but still beat what they are supposed to beat.
Dunno if the 8+12 nerf is really required (doesn't change anything among those 3 units, so it is an additional nerf to the Marauder), but apart from that I think this is a reasonable approach.
Though this obviously needs to be tested for balance when other units are around.
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On April 06 2010 20:34 HDstarcraft wrote:
1st solution)
Marauders need a reduction in HP. They have far too much HP for an infantry unit.
2cnd solution)
Move the Marauder to the factory, thus making it un-stimmable.
1 does not fix the problem with marauders early game and hurts the terran army late game that is really balance at moment
2 stim is needed on marauders can't have half your inf group stim moveing fast and the other half that is made to be the meat shield lag behind. Stim for movment would be useless.
Also tossing them on fac would open use to lots rush we could not stop with just marines. : /
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On April 06 2010 20:37 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 20:31 MorroW wrote:On April 06 2010 20:28 Plexa wrote:
Terran have equal opportunities as far as rushes go then. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, Banshee rush (really fucking strong if you miss it), various drop tactics and whatnot.
The rationale behind putting in an additional tech building as a requirement is that is partly negates the strength of Marauders early on by making them less accessible. This gives Protoss more time to work up a counter (be it voids, chargelots, cannons (lol), or immortals). I dont think there is anything inherently wrong with armies consisting of Marauder/Medivac/Ghost other than it feels slightly unnatural from SC1. And I have no problem with Terrans doing this in every game either since mnm is what we see all the time in TvZ in Sc1 (albeit with some lategame twists).
While Mech is weaker than Marauder, it is somewhat viable similar to how mech is somewhat viable against Zerg. Thus, given the right map, I can see situations where Terrans would opt for Mech instead. how do u plan to bunker rush a protoss? scvs has less hp zealots come out quicker because of chrono boost. there is no way ur gonna bunker rush a protoss in sc2. so proxi rax and bunker rush is the same thing so what do u have really? banshee rush. we got 5 times more rushes on the toss side and if u add that academy on top of the icing terran will be the DEFENDER just like in sc1, now i sure as hell dont want that. i want both races to have rushing opportunities to make the game more exciting. Well as it stands at the moment, at least from what I can see, is that Protoss is the defender while Terran is the aggressor. One race is always going to have to play that role imo. Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 20:33 Qikz wrote:
Didn't early days, Marauders required a building called the Mercenary something? Or was that for the reapers? That was the reaper, I'm suggesting we bring it back for the Marauder.
think terran as the defender is the right idea in early game with reaper and hellion harsment. But need to make sure we can get those maruders in time for the defence and stuff.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Outside of hard Marauder rushes, I'm starting to think there isn't a problem at all here. There's enough stuff for Protoss to fight semi-evenly against Terran thanks to feedback and whatnot.
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Would reducing Marauder range to 4 (instead of 6) solve some of these issues?
- This would make it much more difficult for them to kite Roaches.
- They'd have to run forward to fight immortals and colossus, which would endanger them significantly.
- They would become less effective against Hydras, Tanks and Thors.
- They would tank better for Marines (by naturally moving in front of them)
- They could still kite Zealots, but Stalkers could now kite them potentially.
- Focus fire would be tough for large groups because they wouldn't all be able to easily reach the same target.
Remember what changing goons from 4 range to 6 did? Let's do it in reverse.
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On April 06 2010 21:10 suejak wrote:
So what's the problem again?
Problem is early game. Marauders are slowing and kiteing the early game counter to them around zergling and zealots. All the other units that can be made early game the marauder is made to counter like it should.
Mid and late game are fine and really close to balance in alot of areas
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On April 06 2010 21:51 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 20:09 MorroW wrote:
why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine?
terran already has a shitload of techbuildings, they spend so much time on tech i think its enough man Not true. Understood as buildings you need to unlock further upgrades or units... Terran tech buildings: + Show Spoiler +- Barracks
- Engineering Bay
- Factory
- Ghost Academy
- Armory
- Starport
- Fusion Core
- Tech Lab Protoss tech buildings: + Show Spoiler +- Gateway
- Forge
- Cybernetics Core
- Twilight Council
- Robotics Facility
- Stargate
- Templar Archives
- Dark Shrine
- Robotics Bay
- Fleet Beacon Zerg tech buildings: + Show Spoiler +- Spawning Pool
- Evolution Chamber
- Roach Warren
- Lair
- Hydralisk Den
- Baneling Nest
- Infestation Pit
- Spire
- Hive
- Ultralisk Cavern
- Greater Spire Now, you might say that, Protoss doesn't need to get Stargate tech AND templar tech AND robotics tech. Same goes for Terran, really: They don't _need_ an armory if they don't plan on getting Thors. They don't need a Fusion Core if they're not going for HSM or BCs. Zerg may not need to get a Baneling Nest, etc. Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 20:09 MorroW wrote:
terran already has most upgrades and tech buildings needed to play in the game, ur not thinking far enough ; Again, not true. Attack and armor upgrades are the same for everyone, so what other upgrades do Terrans need? Stimpack, Combat Shield... am I missing something? Sure, you might want to get Infernal Pre-Igniter, Nitro Packs or Cloak for improved harassment, but they're not necessary upgrades any more than, say, Tunneling Claws for Roaches.
Terran need a armory no matter what need it for bio upgrades and if you go mech need it for mech upgrades / thor just saying
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On April 06 2010 22:03 Paladia wrote:
Doubt it will happen now but for diversity they should revamp the Marauder, Stalker and Roach entirely, they are way too similar.
Zerg has 2~3 melee units
Ling (tier 1)
Ultralisk (tier 3)
~Baneling
Protoss has 2~3
Zealot (tier 1)
Dark Templar (tier 3)
~Archon (tier 3.5)
Terran has no melee unit, in fact, all Terran units have superb range, so I would suggest the Marauder (tier 1.5) was instead turned into a melee unit (with appropriate balancing). This would add greater diversity to the game and would allow for a rebalance.
However, it is very doubtful this will happen but something to consider for the expansion perhaps. It just feels sad that after being so long in development, units are so similar. The only melee unit Terran had in SC1 was even removed.
lol melee unit sry terran don't do melee that would sooooo not fit lol
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On April 06 2010 23:53 Tdelamay wrote:
A small idea, what if the special effect of the marauder was to reduce armor instead of slowing down? IT would reduce armor down to a maximum of 0.
That would turn marauder into a good support unit with marines. Each marine shot would deal more damage to high armor units (roaches).
Be a cool idea for sure but i really do want to go thro balancing a new ability i think that one would be even more op then slow to lol.
Cool idea tho
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On April 07 2010 04:52 xnub wrote:Problem is early game. Marauders are slowing and kiteing the early game counter to them around zergling and zealots. All the other units that can be made early game the marauder is made to counter like it should. Mid and late game are fine and really close to balance in alot of areas
Sorta, I've been playing a bunch of random lately and when I random Terran If I don't try out some wild build I just make 3 rax with lab and rally to the enemy base and do stupidly well.
I think the real issue is its a hard counter unit with a micro ability that removes the counters from it. It has both systems, the hard counter and the micro counter. No other unit really does that.
It would be great if more units had a micro able ability that made them counter things instead of just + damage to whatever. The big problem is you cant have both, and to be honest the micro on marauders is not very apm heavy anyway, you click a few times and you've snared every unit in the front line, blocking everything behind it, then you snare the ones that move around, and they block the ones that are no longer snared now.
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EPT
