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On April 06 2010 22:41 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 22:34 Zato-1 wrote:On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote:
Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not. On April 06 2010 20:09 MorroW wrote:
why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine?
ur killing every single rush possibility of the terran by doing this, marine bunker rush? yea right like thats gonna happen when bunks r 30 and rines r 25 I feel this is an interesting point there should be more discussion about- after all, you'll never be able to agree on fixes for the Marauder if you can't first agree on what's the problem with the Marauder (if any). Do Terrans have the capacity to be the aggressors most of the time in TvP? Are Protoss just as capable of putting the pressure on Terrans, or maybe even more so? Let's try to figure this out constructively. Early pressure tactics mentioned so far include: PvT: + Show Spoiler +- Proxy gates
- Cannon rushes
- Early Void Rays
- Proxy DTs
- Other ground unit combos (gateway units + immortals) TvP: + Show Spoiler +- Reaper rush
- Marauder rush
- Proxy barracks
- Bunker rush
- Early banshees
- Drops Just as important as the number of ways you can put early pressure on your opponent is, how effective are these strats? If we can get a good grasp on how strong P early pressure is compared to T early pressure, we can get past the first hurdle, namely: agree on what the problem is. Excellent post. I'll try redirect the thread in this direction.
Once again, as a Z player, i will give my insigth on the ZvT matchup. Before anyone ask, I am a ~1150 platinum player. Not a great player, but not a bad one either.
In the beginning of the beta, every one thougth that Marine > Hydra > Marauders > Roaches > Marines.This led to great mixed armies as each player tried to have the perfect mix of hydra/roaches and marines.
However, nowadays, more and more people realizes that Marauders = Hydras. SO there is basically no need for marines anymore until mutas ( wich cant be rushed or the marauder push will just rape the Z , plus mutas does very little damage to marauders so they will deal a LOT of damage before deing)
I have nothing against Marauder being core of the T army. But my current concern is that the marauder makes the marines useless. This is somewhat true in ZvT, and seems to be even more of a concern in ZvP ( but i will let TvPs expert confirm this.).
tl:dr :
Marauder strength makes the marine useless.
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Phoenixes are not necessary against Medivacs. Templars can Feedback Medivacs, good enough. The problem with Marauders is that they indeed make it impossible to put pressure on the Terran early on. Zealots are no good, Stalkers are no good... You need to be defensive, you can only play aggressively once you get a few Immortals.
I think it's quite simple, you either nerf the damage or the slow. Nerfing both would be insane and would make Marauders worthless, but the combination of the two makes them too deadly.
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yes very good idea lets make marines with 45HP and 6 Damage the core unit of a Terran Army. So that every Protoss needs just an army 1/4 as big as Terrans consisting of stalkers and some Sentrys. Sentrys have the same range of Marines and Guardianshield reduces damage by -33% and Stalkers outrange Marines.
GOOD JOB now we can play sc1 because Protoss will have Mapcontroll of the start again and will just expand like crazy.
edit
On April 06 2010 23:06 Spaylz wrote:
Phoenixes are not necessary against Medivacs. Templars can Feedback Medivacs, good enough. The problem with Marauders is that they indeed make it impossible to put pressure on the Terran early on. Zealots are no good, Stalkers are no good... You need to be defensive, you can only play aggressively once you get a few Immortals.
I think it's quite simple, you either nerf the damage or the slow. Nerfing both would be insane and would make Marauders worthless, but the combination of the two makes them too deadly.
sounds like sc1 TvP. terrans got used to it and now its time that protoss get used to it, if they dont like it change the race and use "imba terran" and get #1 ranks on all servers.
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On April 06 2010 23:32 MeProU_Kor wrote:
yes very good idea lets make marines with 45HP and 6 Damage the core unit of a Terran Army. So that every Protoss needs just an army 1/4 as big as Terrans consisting of stalkers and some Sentrys. Sentrys have the same range of Marines and Guardianshield reduces damage by -33% and Stalkers outrange Marines.
GOOD JOB now we can play sc1 because Protoss will have Mapcontroll of the start again and will just expand like crazy.
You don't have to mock every single suggestion people make. Marauders do make Marines fairly useless. We hardly see any, he's got a point.
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It would be very nice if Blizzard addressed this beta like they did with WC3/Frozen Throne. For example: revamp entire damage/armor system and see how it goes; remove the evil trinity (marauder/roach/immortal) from the game for a week to see how it plays out. Sadly all they do is tweaking numbers and adding/removing crappy caster abilities ;(
I'm looking forward to the map editor that should come mid April. Then we will be able to create mods with whatever balance changes to test them.
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On April 06 2010 23:34 Spaylz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 23:32 MeProU_Kor wrote:
yes very good idea lets make marines with 45HP and 6 Damage the core unit of a Terran Army. So that every Protoss needs just an army 1/4 as big as Terrans consisting of stalkers and some Sentrys. Sentrys have the same range of Marines and Guardianshield reduces damage by -33% and Stalkers outrange Marines.
GOOD JOB now we can play sc1 because Protoss will have Mapcontroll of the start again and will just expand like crazy. You don't have to mock every single suggestion people make. Marauders do make Marines fairly useless. We hardly see any, he's got a point.
im sorry but it makes me angry that (nearly) every player of other races jumps in every thread about balance issues and writes "yes nerf this", "yes less HP" and "yes les damage". Terran can put pressure on Protoss while expanding (like PvT in sc1) but Terran needs more expansions than Protoss because the Protoss army is WAAAAY more costeffective (like PvT sc1).
all i see is "wow i cant controll the game of start blizzard plz fix it, so i can be platinum #1 with my starcraft D- skills".
you CANT change marauders without buffing Marines drastically. blizzard wants Bio AND Mech to be playable vs Protoss, so you CANT JUST buff Mech and nerf Marauders. nerfing marauders means buffing marines drastically to let bio a playable option. playable means marines can survive at least 1 storm without micro and dont die to 1shoot of marauders. these changes would destryoy TvZ.
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A small idea, what if the special effect of the marauder was to reduce armor instead of slowing down? IT would reduce armor down to a maximum of 0.
That would turn marauder into a good support unit with marines. Each marine shot would deal more damage to high armor units (roaches).
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On April 06 2010 23:47 MeProU_Kor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 23:34 Spaylz wrote:On April 06 2010 23:32 MeProU_Kor wrote:
yes very good idea lets make marines with 45HP and 6 Damage the core unit of a Terran Army. So that every Protoss needs just an army 1/4 as big as Terrans consisting of stalkers and some Sentrys. Sentrys have the same range of Marines and Guardianshield reduces damage by -33% and Stalkers outrange Marines.
GOOD JOB now we can play sc1 because Protoss will have Mapcontroll of the start again and will just expand like crazy. You don't have to mock every single suggestion people make. Marauders do make Marines fairly useless. We hardly see any, he's got a point. im sorry but it makes me angry that (nearly) every player of other races jumps in every thread about balance issues and writes "yes nerf this", "yes less HP" and "yes les damage". Terran can put pressure on Protoss while expanding (like PvT in sc1) but Terran needs more expansions than Protoss because the Protoss army is WAAAAY more costeffective (like PvT sc1). all i see is "wow i cant controll the game of start blizzard plz fix it, so i can be platinum #1 with my starcraft D- skills". you CANT change marauders without buffing Marines drastically. blizzard wants Bio AND Mech to be playable vs Protoss, so you CANT JUST buff Mech and nerf Marauders. nerfing marauders means buffing marines drastically to let bio a playable option. playable means marines can survive at least 1 storm without micro and dont die to 1shoot of marauders. these changes would destryoy TvZ.
In SC one Protoss needed more expansions than terran. PvT SC1 terran were MUCH more cost effective and the protoss were the ones rambo-ing into the terran mines and tank lines. PvT were not balanced exactly via their units, but by the entire span of the game. Of course the protoss were more mobile so as a P you usually tried to stay at least one base ahead. Bio is supposed to be cost effective mobile DPS, but very fragile to AOE. The marauder is a bio unit with 125 HP. Compare that to a tank with 150 hp. You have fast shooting, fast moving, healable tanks just running around blasting stuff. Something is wrong.
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On April 06 2010 23:47 MeProU_Kor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 23:34 Spaylz wrote:On April 06 2010 23:32 MeProU_Kor wrote:
yes very good idea lets make marines with 45HP and 6 Damage the core unit of a Terran Army. So that every Protoss needs just an army 1/4 as big as Terrans consisting of stalkers and some Sentrys. Sentrys have the same range of Marines and Guardianshield reduces damage by -33% and Stalkers outrange Marines.
GOOD JOB now we can play sc1 because Protoss will have Mapcontroll of the start again and will just expand like crazy. You don't have to mock every single suggestion people make. Marauders do make Marines fairly useless. We hardly see any, he's got a point. im sorry but it makes me angry that (nearly) every player of other races jumps in every thread about balance issues and writes "yes nerf this", "yes less HP" and "yes les damage". Terran can put pressure on Protoss while expanding (like PvT in sc1) but Terran needs more expansions than Protoss because the Protoss army is WAAAAY more costeffective (like PvT sc1). all i see is "wow i cant controll the game of start blizzard plz fix it, so i can be platinum #1 with my starcraft D- skills". you CANT change marauders without buffing Marines drastically. blizzard wants Bio AND Mech to be playable vs Protoss, so you CANT JUST buff Mech and nerf Marauders. nerfing marauders means buffing marines drastically to let bio a playable option. playable means marines can survive at least 1 storm without micro and dont die to 1shoot of marauders. these changes would destryoy TvZ.
I think you're wrong. Roaches and probably Immortals would need to get nerfed along with Marauders. Marines wouldn't need any buff themselves, since said nerfs would make them more viable.
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On April 06 2010 23:47 MeProU_Kor wrote:
im sorry but it makes me angry that (nearly) every player of other races jumps in every thread about balance issues and writes "yes nerf this", "yes less HP" and "yes les damage". Terran can put pressure on Protoss while expanding (like PvT in sc1) but Terran needs more expansions than Protoss because the Protoss army is WAAAAY more costeffective (like PvT sc1).
apologies accepted 
As i stated before, i do not play PvT and do not know much about it ( I watch streams and read TL threads). I suggested changes that would made marines more viable in ZvT. Plus the goal is not to move from a pure marauder army to a pure marine army. With the change suggested ( Marauder/Roaches/Immortal nerf) i feel like Marauders would still be a viable option against protoss.
Now I admit that " Sentries Negates marines from doing any damage" is a good point. Maybe the ghost EMP could remove the senties shield or would it be too OP ?
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On April 06 2010 23:06 Spaylz wrote:
Phoenixes are not necessary against Medivacs. Templars can Feedback Medivacs, good enough. The problem with Marauders is that they indeed make it impossible to put pressure on the Terran early on. Zealots are no good, Stalkers are no good... You need to be defensive, you can only play aggressively once you get a few Immortals.
I think it's quite simple, you either nerf the damage or the slow. Nerfing both would be insane and would make Marauders worthless, but the combination of the two makes them too deadly.
I love this, though. It sounds like P can fight marauder+medivac with templar+immortal -- which definitely rules out early aggression from the P.
I also loved the idea that charge would make zealots immune to the slow effect. That's AWESOME. Somebody important should make that change alone -- charge zealots+templar should definitely be an effective counter to marauders.
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Actually, I like this idea: the zealot's charge being immune to the marauder's slow effect.
Zealots won't be so useless vs marauders. 
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On April 07 2010 00:18 slimshady wrote:
Actually, I like this idea: the zealot's charge being immune to the marauder's slow effect.
It still wouldn't solve the early game issue. Charge is a long upgrade to get...
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On April 07 2010 00:19 Spaylz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 00:18 slimshady wrote:
Actually, I like this idea: the zealot's charge being immune to the marauder's slow effect. It still wouldn't solve the early game issue. Charge is a long upgrade to get...
I mean, if they get lots of marauders early, you'll just have to dodge and weave with your zealot worker harass or focus on defense until you get charge. Sounds like standard strategy-game fare to me...
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On April 06 2010 23:55 AppleTart wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 23:47 MeProU_Kor wrote:On April 06 2010 23:34 Spaylz wrote:On April 06 2010 23:32 MeProU_Kor wrote:
yes very good idea lets make marines with 45HP and 6 Damage the core unit of a Terran Army. So that every Protoss needs just an army 1/4 as big as Terrans consisting of stalkers and some Sentrys. Sentrys have the same range of Marines and Guardianshield reduces damage by -33% and Stalkers outrange Marines.
GOOD JOB now we can play sc1 because Protoss will have Mapcontroll of the start again and will just expand like crazy. You don't have to mock every single suggestion people make. Marauders do make Marines fairly useless. We hardly see any, he's got a point. im sorry but it makes me angry that (nearly) every player of other races jumps in every thread about balance issues and writes "yes nerf this", "yes less HP" and "yes les damage". Terran can put pressure on Protoss while expanding (like PvT in sc1) but Terran needs more expansions than Protoss because the Protoss army is WAAAAY more costeffective (like PvT sc1). all i see is "wow i cant controll the game of start blizzard plz fix it, so i can be platinum #1 with my starcraft D- skills". you CANT change marauders without buffing Marines drastically. blizzard wants Bio AND Mech to be playable vs Protoss, so you CANT JUST buff Mech and nerf Marauders. nerfing marauders means buffing marines drastically to let bio a playable option. playable means marines can survive at least 1 storm without micro and dont die to 1shoot of marauders. these changes would destryoy TvZ. In SC one Protoss needed more expansions than terran. PvT SC1 terran were MUCH more cost effective and the protoss were the ones rambo-ing into the terran mines and tank lines. PvT were not balanced exactly via their units, but by the entire span of the game. Of course the protoss were more mobile so as a P you usually tried to stay at least one base ahead. Bio is supposed to be cost effective mobile DPS, but very fragile to AOE. The marauder is a bio unit with 125 HP. Compare that to a tank with 150 hp. You have fast shooting, fast moving, healable tanks just running around blasting stuff. Something is wrong.
thats what i said? just that PvT sc1 is now like TvP sc2. i
f you want bio as a playable option you need at least one strong unit with much HP. otherwise it wont work.
if it makes all the newbies happy make slow down a tech for 100/100 so that no one wont die to an early marauder push (for me its the same like 10/15 Gate in sc1).
seriously its poor that you need to "fix" a race because people arent able to use their own race. i never die to marauder pressure and i dont know any ally who dies to something like that. so imo its not marauders that ned to get fixed, its the playstyle of some crying protoss that need to get fixed.
the time where the first marauder arrives in your base you will have a zeal or a stalker and with chrono + homeadvantage u will have a zeal + a stalker and i seriously dont know how someone can die at this point O_O
all you need is to get a sentry some seconds later and FF the ramp if the terran tries to go up the ramp, splitting the terran "army" in 2 parts and take out the half of his force.
sure if you rush 1gate + robo without a unit you should get punsihed for it.
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What about this solution:
Maras are supposed to counter armor. Change their damage to 8 + 8 vs armored. Remove the slow. Keep stims and health at 125 for tanking purposes. Add the D8 charges ability. Charges deal Aoe damage to armored and buildings, but have a cooldown of 5 seconds or something and have a 1 second detonation time. These do not really counter light units; just armored and buildings. Thus the Mara is no longer overpowered vs. melee units for kiting, and due to the damage reduction isn't solely mass-able anymore. With the D8 charges, they can still counter big clumps of armored units effectively, and can also see play as base siege units. This makes Mara no longer an A-move unit, but one you need to micro for good charge placement. It's health remains the same to act as a meatshield for bio armies.
Along with this change, the Reaper also gets changed:
Reapers loose their building damage D8 charge attack, and instead gain Concussive Bullets, which is the exact snare that Mara currently have. Decrease build time and perhaps increase HP by 10. Reapers still fulfill the role of worker harass, but now would also see play to counter melee units.
This would diversify bio armies, make the Mara less OP while still fulfilling its role, and make the Reaper more useful.
Thoughts?
Edit: Also, this would accompany appropriate changes to the Immortal and the Roach. Imho, decrease Roach HP to 80ish, increase armor to 3, add a slight HP regen and increase supply to 2. Change Regeneration upgrade so it heals more underground, and about half as much above ground to keep them viable as damage sponges late game. Early/mid game you can't mass as many, but they are still very viable tanks for tier one units. Stronger attacks like stalkers, tanks, thors, Psi Storm, etc, can kill them easier making them less "ZOMG they won't die", and restores the need to micro burrow roaches when they are wounded, instead of just a mass ball of A-Move.
Immortals should be cheaper, more of a Tank unit, and only have a +10 to Armored. With roach and Marauder change, you wouldn't need so much anti-armor, hopefully.
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On April 06 2010 22:41 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 22:34 Zato-1 wrote:On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote:
Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not. On April 06 2010 20:09 MorroW wrote:
why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine?
ur killing every single rush possibility of the terran by doing this, marine bunker rush? yea right like thats gonna happen when bunks r 30 and rines r 25 I feel this is an interesting point there should be more discussion about- after all, you'll never be able to agree on fixes for the Marauder if you can't first agree on what's the problem with the Marauder (if any). Do Terrans have the capacity to be the aggressors most of the time in TvP? Are Protoss just as capable of putting the pressure on Terrans, or maybe even more so? Let's try to figure this out constructively. Early pressure tactics mentioned so far include: PvT: + Show Spoiler +- Proxy gates
- Cannon rushes
- Early Void Rays
- Proxy DTs
- Other ground unit combos (gateway units + immortals) TvP: + Show Spoiler +- Reaper rush
- Marauder rush
- Proxy barracks
- Bunker rush
- Early banshees
- Drops Just as important as the number of ways you can put early pressure on your opponent is, how effective are these strats? If we can get a good grasp on how strong P early pressure is compared to T early pressure, we can get past the first hurdle, namely: agree on what the problem is. Excellent post. I'll try redirect the thread in this direction.
great pos except its not true
-drops?
ive never seen any terran ever going fast drop against toss, why would u do it? how can this be effective. scratch this off the list because fast drop by terran is just as likely and just as effective as a fast drop by toss (which ive seen alot more of)
bunker rush? same here, ive never seen a bunker rush. a bunker takes 30 seconds to make and scvs got 45 hp. even if bunker rush was possible it would include in the proxi rax so it wouldnt qualify as 2
so in effective rushes (that qualify imo)
PvT:
+ Show Spoiler +- Proxy gates
- Cannon rushes
- Early Void Rays
- Proxy DTs
- Other ground unit combos (gateway units + immortals)
TvP:
+ Show Spoiler +- Reaper rush
- Marauder rush
- Proxy barracks
- Early banshees
if u remove academy
PvT:
+ Show Spoiler +- Proxy gates
- Cannon rushes
- Early Void Rays
- Proxy DTs
- Other ground unit combos (gateway units + immortals)
TvP:
+ Show Spoiler +- Proxy barracks
- Early banshees
and this is my point
On April 06 2010 23:06 Tyrran wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 22:41 Plexa wrote:On April 06 2010 22:34 Zato-1 wrote:On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote:
Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not. On April 06 2010 20:09 MorroW wrote:
why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine?
ur killing every single rush possibility of the terran by doing this, marine bunker rush? yea right like thats gonna happen when bunks r 30 and rines r 25 I feel this is an interesting point there should be more discussion about- after all, you'll never be able to agree on fixes for the Marauder if you can't first agree on what's the problem with the Marauder (if any). Do Terrans have the capacity to be the aggressors most of the time in TvP? Are Protoss just as capable of putting the pressure on Terrans, or maybe even more so? Let's try to figure this out constructively. Early pressure tactics mentioned so far include: PvT: + Show Spoiler +- Proxy gates
- Cannon rushes
- Early Void Rays
- Proxy DTs
- Other ground unit combos (gateway units + immortals) TvP: + Show Spoiler +- Reaper rush
- Marauder rush
- Proxy barracks
- Bunker rush
- Early banshees
- Drops Just as important as the number of ways you can put early pressure on your opponent is, how effective are these strats? If we can get a good grasp on how strong P early pressure is compared to T early pressure, we can get past the first hurdle, namely: agree on what the problem is. Excellent post. I'll try redirect the thread in this direction. Once again, as a Z player, i will give my insigth on the ZvT matchup. Before anyone ask, I am a ~1150 platinum player. Not a great player, but not a bad one either. In the beginning of the beta, every one thougth that Marine > Hydra > Marauders > Roaches > Marines.This led to great mixed armies as each player tried to have the perfect mix of hydra/roaches and marines. However, nowadays, more and more people realizes that Marauders = Hydras. SO there is basically no need for marines anymore until mutas ( wich cant be rushed or the marauder push will just rape the Z , plus mutas does very little damage to marauders so they will deal a LOT of damage before deing) I have nothing against Marauder being core of the T army. But my current concern is that the marauder makes the marines useless. This is somewhat true in ZvT, and seems to be even more of a concern in ZvP ( but i will let TvPs expert confirm this.). tl:dr : Marauder strength makes the marine useless.
totally agree. this is the problem i have with marauders, ever since patch 6 they took the thunder away from the marines totally
On April 07 2010 00:18 slimshady wrote:Actually, I like this idea: the zealot's charge being immune to the marauder's slow effect. Zealots won't be so useless vs marauders.
the problem is whenever marauders get charged they can just back for 2-3 seconds and zealot wont get an attack off and they r back to square 1. zealots themselves cant touch the marauders in a battle like this without flank or high numbers that causes ai issues to the marauders, the charge doesnt do squat even if it wasnt slowed
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On April 06 2010 23:06 Tyrran wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 22:41 Plexa wrote:On April 06 2010 22:34 Zato-1 wrote:On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote:
Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not. On April 06 2010 20:09 MorroW wrote:
why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine?
ur killing every single rush possibility of the terran by doing this, marine bunker rush? yea right like thats gonna happen when bunks r 30 and rines r 25 I feel this is an interesting point there should be more discussion about- after all, you'll never be able to agree on fixes for the Marauder if you can't first agree on what's the problem with the Marauder (if any). Do Terrans have the capacity to be the aggressors most of the time in TvP? Are Protoss just as capable of putting the pressure on Terrans, or maybe even more so? Let's try to figure this out constructively. Early pressure tactics mentioned so far include: PvT: + Show Spoiler +- Proxy gates
- Cannon rushes
- Early Void Rays
- Proxy DTs
- Other ground unit combos (gateway units + immortals) TvP: + Show Spoiler +- Reaper rush
- Marauder rush
- Proxy barracks
- Bunker rush
- Early banshees
- Drops Just as important as the number of ways you can put early pressure on your opponent is, how effective are these strats? If we can get a good grasp on how strong P early pressure is compared to T early pressure, we can get past the first hurdle, namely: agree on what the problem is. Excellent post. I'll try redirect the thread in this direction. Once again, as a Z player, i will give my insigth on the ZvT matchup. Before anyone ask, I am a ~1150 platinum player. Not a great player, but not a bad one either. In the beginning of the beta, every one thougth that Marine > Hydra > Marauders > Roaches > Marines.This led to great mixed armies as each player tried to have the perfect mix of hydra/roaches and marines. However, nowadays, more and more people realizes that Marauders = Hydras. SO there is basically no need for marines anymore until mutas ( wich cant be rushed or the marauder push will just rape the Z , plus mutas does very little damage to marauders so they will deal a LOT of damage before deing) I have nothing against Marauder being core of the T army. But my current concern is that the marauder makes the marines useless. This is somewhat true in ZvT, and seems to be even more of a concern in ZvP ( but i will let TvPs expert confirm this.). tl:dr : Marauder strength makes the marine useless.
Totally agree here.
And it's not only the marauder strength that makes marines useless. You say marines aren't needed until mutas, but as of patch 7, thors are now a much better counter to mutas than marines, making marines even less needed in TvZ. And if you go MMM, then you already have the factory, just plop down a tech lab while making an armory, and make 2-3 thors to counter muta.
Against hydras, marines only outperform marauders if you have shields, and even then only by the smallest of margins. And even then against hydras, I would argue that 1 reactor factory pumping igniter hellions > marines. Plus marines are far more susceptible to fungal growth + banelings, there really isn't any need to go marines in TvZ unless you are somehow caught off guard by super-fast mutas.
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Marauder > Siege Tank.. The game is broken currently imo.. A "Marine" type of unit shouldnt be able to kill a Siege Tank. Thats how i feel about this game. Nothing is correct currently.. Roaches having 145 hp killing everything with its big damage and armor. Immortal having their super shield which neglects nearly everything in a small amount. The game is broken and needs a fix.. Every "ability" in this game is either ON or OFF. Why cant it be half-on? half-off?
Imo Blizzard has sooo much potential of making this a good game but for now gives the game nothing. The damage system includes ONLY Boosts and no Penalties.. This is one of the biggest errors, not utilizing a better damage system than this.
Feels like the game has come down to a 5-10 age game. Make a more complex game!
Why has the immortal such a good advantage with its max 10dmg shield where no other unit has something cool that is good?
Ugh i could go on and on about all the errors Blizz had made in my eyes. But who cares about what i think anyway.. GG
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Without going full circle again, I think that Terran players are simply spoiled. You get a unit you can mass all game long, that barely requires any micro vs protoss ground units, and that can be healed and stimmed. I don't blame you, If zerg or protoss had a unit like that, we'd build nothing else either. The end result is that you narrow your strategic vision to why build A,B or C when D is always better. Maybe A,B, and C are all balanced units and combined with E and F you'd have a very good army, BUT nooo...D (aka Marauders) are limiting your vision you never get to thinking about E and F cuz the thought process never gets past USE D.
You want a Bio tanking unit, that also harasses, kites, slows and blows up buildings. Make a choice. Get a slowing unit for support, or a tanking unit to tank and beat on armor.
100 HP is still more than 2x a Marine, 8+12 Damage is the same dps vs armored as before, and u still have slow to kite banelings, zealots and other units around.
125 HP, 10+10, but no slow...u end up with a Bigger Badder Marine that hit armored unit hard but that loses to cheap masses of units.
I for one am not against Terran receiving other buffs or undoing some marine/reactor nerfs should a Marauder nerf take place, but we shouldn't assume that is it absolutely required.
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EPT
