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On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote:
Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not. I have no issues with Medivac/Marauder/Ghost being the core of Terran armies, Protoss have enough stuff to make it an even fight later on. Thus, I think that the best way to balance the Marauder (and potentially Reaper) is re-introduce the Merc Haven (or Academy) and make that building a prerequisite for building the Marauder. Perhaps adding slow as an upgrade there would be good too (as well as reaper speed, if you want to put the reaper there too). This slows down how fast Terran can get the Marauder and hence makes Rushes significantly weaker. It adds an extra tech building making them less attractive in TvZ (making Mech more favorable) and should iron out any problems in TvP.
Thoughts?
why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine?
terran already has a shitload of techbuildings, they spend so much time on tech i think its enough man
this woudlnt change anything, it would just cost the terrans to tweak our bo alittle but nothing big and everything is back to the same
ur killing every single rush possibility of the terran by doing this, marine bunker rush? yea right like thats gonna happen when bunks r 30 and rines r 25
all u would acomplish is to add another tech building with 0 upgrades in it afaik, or maybe u want to move all tech lab grades to the academy? its a tech lab its supposed to contain the upgrades... academy has no purpose in sc2 as long as the tech lab is here
terran already has most upgrades and tech buildings needed to play in the game, ur not thinking far enough ;
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
What kind of rushes do Protoss have that are viable against Terran at the moment Morrow?
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The main issue with the marauder for me as protoss player is that its simply too powerful early game.
I want to put some pressure on the terran early? No way he got marauders, he can kite my zealots/ hard countner my stalkers
He fast expands, I want to destroy his expo? No way he got marauders, he can kite my zealots/ hard countner my stalkers
I answer his fast expand, with my own fast expand? No way, he now can produce marauders with double the speed, immortals are too costly to mass them before he pushes with his army
Basically as a protoss I am afraid to do any action whatsoever because he can kite my whole tier 1 army with marauders, and if I decide to get colossus, HT or immortals, the terran either pushes with his huge marauder ball or by the time I get my first colossus he got 100 limit marauders already.
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On April 06 2010 20:15 Plexa wrote:
What kind of rushes do Protoss have that are viable against Terran at the moment Morrow?
proxi gate (scv less hp than sc1, scv alot less hp and repairs slower, marines more hp but still die by 3 hits. zea-10 shield but in the end if its unstruck for 10 sec it can regnerate from 0 shield to 50 in 25 seconds which is alot faster than sc1) gate rushing should be stronger in sc2, ppl just havent started doing it. oh and also marines cant fuck around between supply depots where zea must run around. now its all fair and square in that area so sim city? alot less effective
forge rush (ive seen it happen and even died to it, cannons 150/150 now)
void ray rush (u may laff but this is what white-ra is doing as response to marauder fe, it counters it hard)
dt rush with proxi pylon (not as strong as sc1 but sure as hell not as expected. plus scvs die on 1 hit now)
and then pretty much any ground army combo timing rush. 4warpgate. immortal rushing. mass sentry zealot immortal. (this is what everyone is doing for the past weeks, why? because they cant fe because of the marauder strength early game)
all of these rushes u need to scout and respond accordingly. nothing stops all of it.
what do terran have? reaper rush, marauder rush.. eeee
unless u want to leave terran do the same thing over and over again i suspect u to agree it was a lame idea to think of another tech building for terran. i mean cmon tech lab and academy? thats as high tech as a god damn immortal
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Terran have equal opportunities as far as rushes go then. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, Banshee rush (really fucking strong if you miss it), various drop tactics and whatnot.
The rationale behind putting in an additional tech building as a requirement is that is partly negates the strength of Marauders early on by making them less accessible. This gives Protoss more time to work up a counter (be it voids, chargelots, cannons (lol), or immortals). I dont think there is anything inherently wrong with armies consisting of Marauder/Medivac/Ghost other than it feels slightly unnatural from SC1. And I have no problem with Terrans doing this in every game either since mnm is what we see all the time in TvZ in Sc1 (albeit with some lategame twists).
While Mech is weaker than Marauder, it is somewhat viable similar to how mech is somewhat viable against Zerg. Thus, given the right map, I can see situations where Terrans would opt for Mech instead.
Making Maraduer and Immortal equal status in tech is perfectly fine imo.
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On April 06 2010 20:28 Plexa wrote:
Terran have equal opportunities as far as rushes go then. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, Banshee rush (really fucking strong if you miss it), various drop tactics and whatnot.
The rationale behind putting in an additional tech building as a requirement is that is partly negates the strength of Marauders early on by making them less accessible. This gives Protoss more time to work up a counter (be it voids, chargelots, cannons (lol), or immortals). I dont think there is anything inherently wrong with armies consisting of Marauder/Medivac/Ghost other than it feels slightly unnatural from SC1. And I have no problem with Terrans doing this in every game either since mnm is what we see all the time in TvZ in Sc1 (albeit with some lategame twists).
While Mech is weaker than Marauder, it is somewhat viable similar to how mech is somewhat viable against Zerg. Thus, given the right map, I can see situations where Terrans would opt for Mech instead.
how do u plan to bunker rush a protoss?
scvs has less hp zealots come out quicker because of chrono boost. there is no way ur gonna bunker rush a protoss in sc2. so proxi rax and bunker rush is the same thing so what do u have really? banshee rush. we got 5 times more rushes on the toss side and if u add that academy on top of the icing terran will be the DEFENDER just like in sc1, now i sure as hell dont want that. i want both races to have rushing opportunities to make the game more exciting.
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United Kingdom12061 Posts
Didn't early days, Marauders required a building called the Mercenary something? Or was that for the reapers?
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1st solution)
Marauders need a reduction in HP. They have far too much HP for an infantry unit.
2cnd solution)
Move the Marauder to the factory, thus making it un-stimmable.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 06 2010 20:31 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 20:28 Plexa wrote:
Terran have equal opportunities as far as rushes go then. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, Banshee rush (really fucking strong if you miss it), various drop tactics and whatnot.
The rationale behind putting in an additional tech building as a requirement is that is partly negates the strength of Marauders early on by making them less accessible. This gives Protoss more time to work up a counter (be it voids, chargelots, cannons (lol), or immortals). I dont think there is anything inherently wrong with armies consisting of Marauder/Medivac/Ghost other than it feels slightly unnatural from SC1. And I have no problem with Terrans doing this in every game either since mnm is what we see all the time in TvZ in Sc1 (albeit with some lategame twists).
While Mech is weaker than Marauder, it is somewhat viable similar to how mech is somewhat viable against Zerg. Thus, given the right map, I can see situations where Terrans would opt for Mech instead. how do u plan to bunker rush a protoss? scvs has less hp zealots come out quicker because of chrono boost. there is no way ur gonna bunker rush a protoss in sc2. so proxi rax and bunker rush is the same thing so what do u have really? banshee rush. we got 5 times more rushes on the toss side and if u add that academy on top of the icing terran will be the DEFENDER just like in sc1, now i sure as hell dont want that. i want both races to have rushing opportunities to make the game more exciting.
Well as it stands at the moment, at least from what I can see, is that Protoss is the defender while Terran is the aggressor. One race is always going to have to play that role imo.
On April 06 2010 20:33 Qikz wrote:
Didn't early days, Marauders required a building called the Mercenary something? Or was that for the reapers?
That was the reaper, I'm suggesting we bring it back for the Marauder.
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On April 06 2010 20:37 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 20:31 MorroW wrote:On April 06 2010 20:28 Plexa wrote:
Terran have equal opportunities as far as rushes go then. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, Banshee rush (really fucking strong if you miss it), various drop tactics and whatnot.
The rationale behind putting in an additional tech building as a requirement is that is partly negates the strength of Marauders early on by making them less accessible. This gives Protoss more time to work up a counter (be it voids, chargelots, cannons (lol), or immortals). I dont think there is anything inherently wrong with armies consisting of Marauder/Medivac/Ghost other than it feels slightly unnatural from SC1. And I have no problem with Terrans doing this in every game either since mnm is what we see all the time in TvZ in Sc1 (albeit with some lategame twists).
While Mech is weaker than Marauder, it is somewhat viable similar to how mech is somewhat viable against Zerg. Thus, given the right map, I can see situations where Terrans would opt for Mech instead. how do u plan to bunker rush a protoss? scvs has less hp zealots come out quicker because of chrono boost. there is no way ur gonna bunker rush a protoss in sc2. so proxi rax and bunker rush is the same thing so what do u have really? banshee rush. we got 5 times more rushes on the toss side and if u add that academy on top of the icing terran will be the DEFENDER just like in sc1, now i sure as hell dont want that. i want both races to have rushing opportunities to make the game more exciting. Well as it stands at the moment, at least from what I can see, is that Protoss is the defender while Terran is the aggressor. One race is always going to have to play that role imo. Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 20:33 Qikz wrote:
Didn't early days, Marauders required a building called the Mercenary something? Or was that for the reapers? That was the reaper, I'm suggesting we bring it back for the Marauder.
the only reason the terran is the agressor early game now in tvp is because marauders r so ridiculously strong. its even about 50/50, toss can rush just as much as terran can. i dont think marauder fe qualifies as a rush, but it displays that marauder is too strong if we can fe at the same time give the toss a hard time in the toss base with even the 1st marauder. but adding an academy will make toss the agressor always, its also gonna bring back the 13nexus bullshit which sc1 had just because terran needed t2 to move out. do u really want this plexa?
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On April 06 2010 20:28 Plexa wrote:
Terran have equal opportunities as far as rushes go then. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, Banshee rush (really fucking strong if you miss it), various drop tactics and whatnot.
The rationale behind putting in an additional tech building as a requirement is that is partly negates the strength of Marauders early on by making them less accessible. This gives Protoss more time to work up a counter (be it voids, chargelots, cannons (lol), or immortals). I dont think there is anything inherently wrong with armies consisting of Marauder/Medivac/Ghost other than it feels slightly unnatural from SC1. And I have no problem with Terrans doing this in every game either since mnm is what we see all the time in TvZ in Sc1 (albeit with some lategame twists).
While Mech is weaker than Marauder, it is somewhat viable similar to how mech is somewhat viable against Zerg. Thus, given the right map, I can see situations where Terrans would opt for Mech instead.
Making Maraduer and Immortal equal status in tech is perfectly fine imo.
Sorry but everything u said 'bout Terran-bunker-rush-Protoss is so R-I-D-I-C-U-L-I-O-U-S ... All those rushes can be stopped easily.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 06 2010 20:41 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 20:37 Plexa wrote:On April 06 2010 20:31 MorroW wrote:On April 06 2010 20:28 Plexa wrote:
Terran have equal opportunities as far as rushes go then. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, Banshee rush (really fucking strong if you miss it), various drop tactics and whatnot.
The rationale behind putting in an additional tech building as a requirement is that is partly negates the strength of Marauders early on by making them less accessible. This gives Protoss more time to work up a counter (be it voids, chargelots, cannons (lol), or immortals). I dont think there is anything inherently wrong with armies consisting of Marauder/Medivac/Ghost other than it feels slightly unnatural from SC1. And I have no problem with Terrans doing this in every game either since mnm is what we see all the time in TvZ in Sc1 (albeit with some lategame twists).
While Mech is weaker than Marauder, it is somewhat viable similar to how mech is somewhat viable against Zerg. Thus, given the right map, I can see situations where Terrans would opt for Mech instead. how do u plan to bunker rush a protoss? scvs has less hp zealots come out quicker because of chrono boost. there is no way ur gonna bunker rush a protoss in sc2. so proxi rax and bunker rush is the same thing so what do u have really? banshee rush. we got 5 times more rushes on the toss side and if u add that academy on top of the icing terran will be the DEFENDER just like in sc1, now i sure as hell dont want that. i want both races to have rushing opportunities to make the game more exciting. Well as it stands at the moment, at least from what I can see, is that Protoss is the defender while Terran is the aggressor. One race is always going to have to play that role imo. On April 06 2010 20:33 Qikz wrote:
Didn't early days, Marauders required a building called the Mercenary something? Or was that for the reapers? That was the reaper, I'm suggesting we bring it back for the Marauder. the only reason the terran is the agressor early game now in tvp is because marauders r so ridiculously strong. its even about 50/50, toss can rush just as much as terran can. i dont think marauder fe qualifies as a rush, but it displays that marauder is too strong if we can fe at the same time give the toss a hard time in the toss base with even the 1st marauder. but adding an academy will make toss the agressor always, its also gonna bring back the 13nexus bullshit which sc1 had just because terran needed t2 to move out. do u really want this plexa?
It's worth a shot while we're still in beta. If it fails miserably then we can revert back. We don't have the opportunity to experiment once the game is released.
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On April 06 2010 20:49 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 20:41 MorroW wrote:On April 06 2010 20:37 Plexa wrote:On April 06 2010 20:31 MorroW wrote:On April 06 2010 20:28 Plexa wrote:
Terran have equal opportunities as far as rushes go then. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, Banshee rush (really fucking strong if you miss it), various drop tactics and whatnot.
The rationale behind putting in an additional tech building as a requirement is that is partly negates the strength of Marauders early on by making them less accessible. This gives Protoss more time to work up a counter (be it voids, chargelots, cannons (lol), or immortals). I dont think there is anything inherently wrong with armies consisting of Marauder/Medivac/Ghost other than it feels slightly unnatural from SC1. And I have no problem with Terrans doing this in every game either since mnm is what we see all the time in TvZ in Sc1 (albeit with some lategame twists).
While Mech is weaker than Marauder, it is somewhat viable similar to how mech is somewhat viable against Zerg. Thus, given the right map, I can see situations where Terrans would opt for Mech instead. how do u plan to bunker rush a protoss? scvs has less hp zealots come out quicker because of chrono boost. there is no way ur gonna bunker rush a protoss in sc2. so proxi rax and bunker rush is the same thing so what do u have really? banshee rush. we got 5 times more rushes on the toss side and if u add that academy on top of the icing terran will be the DEFENDER just like in sc1, now i sure as hell dont want that. i want both races to have rushing opportunities to make the game more exciting. Well as it stands at the moment, at least from what I can see, is that Protoss is the defender while Terran is the aggressor. One race is always going to have to play that role imo. On April 06 2010 20:33 Qikz wrote:
Didn't early days, Marauders required a building called the Mercenary something? Or was that for the reapers? That was the reaper, I'm suggesting we bring it back for the Marauder. the only reason the terran is the agressor early game now in tvp is because marauders r so ridiculously strong. its even about 50/50, toss can rush just as much as terran can. i dont think marauder fe qualifies as a rush, but it displays that marauder is too strong if we can fe at the same time give the toss a hard time in the toss base with even the 1st marauder. but adding an academy will make toss the agressor always, its also gonna bring back the 13nexus bullshit which sc1 had just because terran needed t2 to move out. do u really want this plexa? It's worth a shot while we're still in beta. If it fails miserably then we can revert back. We don't have the opportunity to experiment once the game is released.
we dont have the chance to test every little thing that comes up into ppls minds. why cant u just trust me on my words that this is a bad idea? i explained to u for long time now the issues of this. we cant just test it and say "ok that was bad lets move back to normal", there r thousands of ppl who r playing the beta and is affected by every little change we make, thats why blizzard cant change stuff unless they have made some quality time for round table black board coffee time with the designer crew. blizzard is listening to us, we should be graceful for that but just because they did it once doesnt mean they will do any idea we throw at them. they made static def better because it was a genius idea. they just change stuff if they can convince themselves its a good idea, not just to test it and change back, thats the least they want to do
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 06 2010 20:54 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 20:49 Plexa wrote:On April 06 2010 20:41 MorroW wrote:On April 06 2010 20:37 Plexa wrote:On April 06 2010 20:31 MorroW wrote:On April 06 2010 20:28 Plexa wrote:
Terran have equal opportunities as far as rushes go then. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, Banshee rush (really fucking strong if you miss it), various drop tactics and whatnot.
The rationale behind putting in an additional tech building as a requirement is that is partly negates the strength of Marauders early on by making them less accessible. This gives Protoss more time to work up a counter (be it voids, chargelots, cannons (lol), or immortals). I dont think there is anything inherently wrong with armies consisting of Marauder/Medivac/Ghost other than it feels slightly unnatural from SC1. And I have no problem with Terrans doing this in every game either since mnm is what we see all the time in TvZ in Sc1 (albeit with some lategame twists).
While Mech is weaker than Marauder, it is somewhat viable similar to how mech is somewhat viable against Zerg. Thus, given the right map, I can see situations where Terrans would opt for Mech instead. how do u plan to bunker rush a protoss? scvs has less hp zealots come out quicker because of chrono boost. there is no way ur gonna bunker rush a protoss in sc2. so proxi rax and bunker rush is the same thing so what do u have really? banshee rush. we got 5 times more rushes on the toss side and if u add that academy on top of the icing terran will be the DEFENDER just like in sc1, now i sure as hell dont want that. i want both races to have rushing opportunities to make the game more exciting. Well as it stands at the moment, at least from what I can see, is that Protoss is the defender while Terran is the aggressor. One race is always going to have to play that role imo. On April 06 2010 20:33 Qikz wrote:
Didn't early days, Marauders required a building called the Mercenary something? Or was that for the reapers? That was the reaper, I'm suggesting we bring it back for the Marauder. the only reason the terran is the agressor early game now in tvp is because marauders r so ridiculously strong. its even about 50/50, toss can rush just as much as terran can. i dont think marauder fe qualifies as a rush, but it displays that marauder is too strong if we can fe at the same time give the toss a hard time in the toss base with even the 1st marauder. but adding an academy will make toss the agressor always, its also gonna bring back the 13nexus bullshit which sc1 had just because terran needed t2 to move out. do u really want this plexa? It's worth a shot while we're still in beta. If it fails miserably then we can revert back. We don't have the opportunity to experiment once the game is released. we dont have the chance to test every little thing that comes up into ppls minds. why cant u just trust me on my words that this is a bad idea? i explained to u for long time now the issues of this. we cant just test it and say "ok that was bad lets move back to normal", there r thousands of ppl who r playing the beta and is affected by every little change we make, thats why blizzard cant change stuff unless they have made some quality time for round table black board coffee time with the designer crew. blizzard is listening to us, we should be graceful for that but just because they did it once doesnt mean they will do any idea we throw at them. they made static def better because it was a genius idea. they just change stuff if they can convince themselves its a good idea, not just to test it and change back, thats the least they want to do
My guess is that they have a parallel beta running internally that they are changing on a weekly basis (if not more regularly) testing various things, and when they get a stable patch they release it. I'm not convinced it is a bad idea, I can see your concerns, but I think that with an appropriate amount of time that Terran will adapt and things will be just as interesting.
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Why doesn't storm slaughter mass marauders?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 06 2010 21:02 suejak wrote:
Why doesn't storm slaughter mass marauders?
Size of storm radius, health of Marauder, Medivacs
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On April 06 2010 21:02 suejak wrote:
Why doesn't storm slaughter mass marauders?
It actually does. If you got a couple of HT's with a good amount of energy and you spread them out (so they can't be all EMP'ed at once) then a marauder army will melt pretty fast imo. Immortals rape marauders + you can use the sentry's for forcefields and shields.
Sentry's + immortals are doing quite well against marauders.
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So what's the problem again?
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On April 06 2010 21:04 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 21:02 suejak wrote:
Why doesn't storm slaughter mass marauders? Size of storm radius, health of Marauder, Medivacs
Oh, ok. If storm doesn't slaughter marauders, then that's the problem imo.
EDIT: counter medivacs with phoenix, use storm to weaken marauders, then blitz with zealots... That doesn't work?
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On April 06 2010 21:10 suejak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 21:04 Plexa wrote:On April 06 2010 21:02 suejak wrote:
Why doesn't storm slaughter mass marauders? Size of storm radius, health of Marauder, Medivacs Oh, ok. If storm doesn't slaughter marauders, then that's the problem imo. EDIT: counter medivacs with phoenix, use storm to weaken marauders, then blitz with zealots... That doesn't work?
stimmed rauders can kite speedlots quite well except for the first charge, the one thing zeals are good at against marauders is taking hits really, unless he's in some situation were he can't run away.
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EPT
