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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
On April 06 2010 10:24 Daerthalus wrote: I'm still very confused as to why Marauder NEED a slow effect? What specific match up does this matter in? Vs Banelings? Yes. | ||
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Thereisnosaurus
Australia1822 Posts
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kidcrash
United States620 Posts
[QUOTE]On April 06 2010 08:27 228zip wrote: Personnally, I would remove the slow. If you make it an upgrade, you give the opponent a chance to have air units or immortals by the time the upgrade is done. So, once the marauder doesn't counter zerglings and zealots, who can do the job ? Marines will die if they are in melee; getting them behind a wall or in a bunker will make them superior though. However that restricts the terran player terribly : he lets total control of the map to his opponent and can't expand without being obliterated. /QUOTE] Giving your opponent a chance to get air units and immortals is exactly what we need to solve this problem. 100/100 upgrade at the tech lab for the slow effect. Forces tension between 2nd tech lab and stim build timings. Forces the terran to make more choices and we all know this is never a bad thing. I don't think it's giving up map control as much as its giving protoss an equal playing field for it. To compensate for the extra out of pocket cost we could take 25 gas off the siege tank cost. The terran would have to think to himself if he is ready to commit to marauders by researching it, or if he is just going to use them to hold himself over until factory units. If he does decide to commit to it, he can still switch tech to siege tank at any time. With the 25 gas decrease it will even out the gas you spent on slow effect. Now some might argue that all terrans would still bite the bullet, take the 100/100 sacrifice every time, and we'd be back to the same mindless marauder spam as before. Essentially they would be right, this would not fix mid/late game whatsoever and there would be little reason for terrans to mass anything besides marauder. This means we need to take 25 hp off the marauder and give siege tank 180. I do agree buffing the siege tanks hp will not change the fact that immortals completely own it. Increasing its effectiveness against other units will compensate for that. The immortal is just one unit that hard counters the tank, I think we might just have to deal with that fact. Increasing its durability and making it a little more cost appealing will compensate enough to ignore how bad the immortal counters it. Just guard your tanks from the immortals, in SC1 we had to guard our tanks but the effectiveness it gave us in return made it well worth it. Some would argue that a 150/100 siege tank with 180 hp might be a little too powerful vs zerg. You have to remember the terran is taking a huge hit on the marauder at this point. I would also like to add that I just don't like the idea of adding a special exception for zerglings and zealots. For one, I can't picture blizzard doing it. Also doesn't seem like a very creative solution. It's like saying "storm is too effective against zerglings, so we will just make it not affect them at all whatsoever". | ||
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xnub
Canada610 Posts
On April 06 2010 10:24 Daerthalus wrote: I'm still very confused as to why Marauder NEED a slow effect? What specific match up does this matter in? I'd like to see reasonable comments. Not I need it cuz my unitz are teh suck. Or cuz I need it cuz I like PWNING NOOBS! If the issue is that your other units are bad, ask for a buff to them, TvP VS Zealots? Make more Marines? Vs Stalkers? Marauders cost less and deal more damage to stalker than stalkers deal them? Vs Robo units? I rarely care or fine slow even makes much of a difference vs Robo units. Colossi have super range and Immortals deal sick damage to Marauders. TvZ Vs Zergling? Make some Marines, Marines eat Lings for breakfast Vs Banelings? Why would Zerg build banelings to counter Mass Marauders? Marauders are not light. Vs Hydras? You shouldn't be making Marauders to beat hydras, Siege tanks are far superior. Vs Ultralisks? You can't even slow them, so makes no difference. All Matchups Vs T2 Armor? You already have favourable 100% Damage bonus vs Armor do you rly need a slow? its a cool ability that gives them a bit more use and makes them none boreing. just like stalker blink, zealot charge, roachs bury and move when under ground. Its just a cool spell ability from keeping units a little more unque and cool. some cool things slow does very good for stopping fast moveing harsment units. ( Hellions, reapers ) Good at getting extra kills from retreating enemys a few extra stalkers hydras w/e. Good vs slowing a HT or ghost that gets caught by a scan and trys to run out of it. Also at slowing running probs from drops or attacks. More to but slow is a cool little thing. Really just should not work on melee units /shrug | ||
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ZenDeX
Philippines2916 Posts
On April 06 2010 12:05 xnub wrote: its a cool ability that gives them a bit more use and makes them none boreing. just like stalker blink, zealot charge, roachs bury and move when under ground. Its just a cool spell ability from keeping units a little more unque and cool. You have a shallow way of thinking if you close it as something that makes unit cool. Stalker blink is there to compensate for the lack of range upgrade and adds mobility to the unit. Zealot charge is simply the new Speedlot upgrade. The roach started out as a tank + harass unit in the drawing board hence it has rapid regen and tunneling claws. LET'S GET BACK ON TOPIC! Why does the marauder need a slow? On April 06 2010 12:05 xnub wrote: some cool things slow does very good for stopping fast moveing harsment units. ( Hellions, reapers ) Good at getting extra kills from retreating enemys a few extra stalkers hydras w/e. Good vs slowing a HT or ghost that gets caught by a scan and trys to run out of it. Also at slowing running probs from drops or attacks. More to but slow is a cool little thing. Really just should not work on melee units /shrug This doesn't make sense. The Marauder has the passive slow attack solely for the purpose of getting a few extra kills? That's a tad too one-sided and boring IMO and it doesn't add depth to strategy. If it was solely for the purpose of preventing your opponent's army from touching yours it would make a lot more sense seeing as a standard Terran army consists mainly of ranged units. | ||
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xnub
Canada610 Posts
You have a shallow way of thinking if you close it as something that makes unit cool. Stalker blink is there to compensate for the lack of range upgrade and adds mobility to the unit. Zealot charge is simply the new Speedlot upgrade. The roach started out as a tank + harass unit in the drawing board hence it has rapid regen and tunneling claws. LET'S GET BACK ON TOPIC! Why does the marauder need a slow? cool and usefull abilities thats what blizzard was going for cool abilities that could be fun to use or see and also usefull in the game. For the stalker blink what does it do ? Can be used to chase down units get extra kills and micro to avoid loseing units just like slow on marauders. Then you have the bonus of it being good for getting around the map and useing it for harsment. Same with roachs extra regen under ground cool for mirco to keep them alive and also they can get into postion to fight really easy. Can also be very good for harsment. This doesn't make sense. The Marauder has the passive slow attack solely for the purpose of getting a few extra kills? That's a tad too one-sided and boring IMO and it doesn't add depth to strategy. There was more reason then just getting those extras kills and thats big. Makes the enemy think twice about attacking you if he know he is going to lose even more units if he try to break off. Read it agian a hellion or reaper comes into your base trying to kite your guys around as they do as much dmg as they can. Slow kills that off right away no speed and they are GG. Not to mention you can still kite roachs sentrys and workers. Also slow is good for messing with the postion of there units hit move a side back watch them take twice as long to get back into a good formation. If it was solely for the purpose of preventing your opponent's army from touching yours it would make a lot more sense seeing as a standard Terran army consists mainly of ranged units. See thats the problem right now it is preventing your opponent's army from touching you with any melee units. Thats what is making the marauder imb. the melee units were the things made by blizzard to counter the marauder early game. They don't cause of it and micro and slow. | ||
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brocoli
Brazil264 Posts
Attack: nerf bonus vs. armored from 10(+1) to +5(+1). (note: Marauder attack cooldown : 1.5 ) Concussive Shells Preparation (replaces Concussive Shells) Single-Target Autocast with 4.5 cooldown (becomes the Marauder's attack when available). (Autocast can be turned off) Description: The marauder's attack gains a slowing effect on opponents, and becomes stronger against heavily armored targets once fully charged. If the marauder attacks with an unprepared shell, the cooldown is restarted without the activation of this ability. Massive units are immune to the slow effect. Attack bonus: +5 vs. armored. Slow: 60%~75% (current Marauder: 50%) Research: "Nanomachine AI Optimisation : Speed" / Whatever name that looks cool Researched at: Techlab attached to Barracks if Quality is researched Drastically reduces production time of concussive shells on marauder weapons, at the cost of some of the slowing effect. Cooldown reduced from 4.5 to 3.0, Slow effect reduced from 60%~75% to 45%~60% Cost: 100/100. Research time: fast. Research: "Nanomachine AI Optimisation : Quality" / Whatever name that looks cool Researched at: Techlab attached to Barracks if Speed is researched (marauders start with this researched) Improves the quality of marauder's concussive shells, at the cost of production time. Cooldown worsened from 3.0 to 4.5, Slow effect buffed from 45%~60% to 60%~75% Cost: 100/100. Research time: slower. Idea behind all this: Make the Marauder more interesting overall. Keep its relation to units like Roaches Immortals or Infestors, but add some micro to these matchups. Also exploit the marauder's slow effect more as a support unit, by making it more sensible but harder/more expensive to use. Also give them two "Weapons refit"-like upgrades, which will swap their role in the army, for more flexible builds, but once the modes are changed, you'll need to make the time lost and resources spent in the swap worth it. This tweak won't affect Marauders vs. Immortals DPS-wise since the damage is 10 under hardened shields anyway. It will make kiting Immortals more effective, should the player micro correctly. Even with nerfed damage vs. Roaches, the improved slow effect on the already slow roaches will balance themselves out even in "Quality" mode. You can still pick Infestors with 3x Marauders since their first shot is as strong as before, and the second is still strong enough to kill. (And the improved slow may add an opportunity for a third shot) Generally, the Marauder's DPS is weaker, but they kite more easily for full damage with the "Speed" mode. With the "Quality" mode, they fit more as support units. | ||
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xnub
Canada610 Posts
On April 06 2010 13:09 brocoli wrote: Marauder Tweak Suggestion: Attack: nerf bonus vs. armored from 10(+1) to +5(+1). (note: Marauder attack cooldown : 1.5 ) Concussive Shells Preparation (replaces Concussive Shells) Single-Target Autocast with 4.5 cooldown (becomes the Marauder's attack when available). (Autocast can be turned off) Description: The marauder's attack gains a slowing effect on opponents, and becomes stronger against heavily armored targets once fully charged. If the marauder attacks with an unprepared shell, the cooldown is restarted without the activation of this ability. Massive units are immune to the slow effect. Attack bonus: +5 vs. armored. Slow: 60%~75% (current Marauder: 50%) Research: "Nanomachine AI Optimisation : Speed" / Whatever name that looks cool Researched at: Techlab attached to Barracks if Quality is researched Drastically reduces production time of concussive shells on marauder weapons, at the cost of some of the slowing effect. Cooldown reduced from 4.5 to 3.0, Slow effect reduced from 60%~75% to 45%~60% Cost: 100/100. Research time: fast. Research: "Nanomachine AI Optimisation : Quality" / Whatever name that looks cool Researched at: Techlab attached to Barracks if Speed is researched (marauders start with this researched) Improves the quality of marauder's concussive shells, at the cost of production time. Cooldown worsened from 3.0 to 4.5, Slow effect buffed from 45%~60% to 60%~75% Cost: 100/100. Research time: slower. Idea behind all this: Make the Marauder more interesting overall. Keep its relation to units like Roaches Immortals or Infestors, but add some micro to these matchups. Also exploit the marauder's slow effect more as a support unit, by making it more sensible but harder/more expensive to use. Also give them two "Weapons refit"-like upgrades, which will swap their role in the army, for more flexible builds, but once the modes are changed, you'll need to make the time lost and resources spent in the swap worth it. This tweak won't affect Marauders vs. Immortals DPS-wise since the damage is 10 under hardened shields anyway. It will make kiting Immortals more effective, should the player micro correctly. Even with nerfed damage vs. Roaches, the improved slow effect on the already slow roaches will balance themselves out even in "Quality" mode. You can still pick Infestors with 3x Marauders since their first shot is as strong as before, and the second is still strong enough to kill. (And the improved slow may add an opportunity for a third shot) Generally, the Marauder's DPS is weaker, but they kite more easily for full damage with the "Speed" mode. With the "Quality" mode, they fit more as support units. Still does not fix the real problem with marauders. Still will just mass them and when you get 4 - 6 go attack the toss base and watch as can't really def himself. Plus its really confusing and complicated. Altho i do like that you are trying to make them even more interesting as a unit. But think they are plenty interesting . Maybe not as much as roachs or stalkers but eh /shrug got stim to so makes up for it. Also would effect end game to much where really tvp and tvz is really getting close to balance as it is. oh also its 10 + 10 for armored so 5 + 10 was what you were looking for ? | ||
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ZenDeX
Philippines2916 Posts
On April 06 2010 12:50 xnub wrote: See thats the problem right now it is preventing your opponent's army from touching you with any melee units. Thats what is making the marauder imb. the melee units were the things made by blizzard to counter the marauder early game. They don't cause of it and micro and slow. I have thought of something better: Zealots being immune to the slow effect while charging. | ||
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xnub
Canada610 Posts
On April 06 2010 14:22 lolaloc wrote: I have thought of something better: Zealots being immune to the slow effect while charging. doesn;t fix early game where they are op | ||
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abrasion
Australia722 Posts
On April 06 2010 03:09 xnub wrote: Marauders are the counter to stalkers .... it has been said so by blizzard deal with it ? Also blink harsment by stalkers is crazy and has sooo much potential. You can blink anywhere on map you have a obs. melee unit i don't even know what to say to that LOL How can you actually seriously propose Stalkers with blink vs Marauders? The build time for the council and the research time, even with chrono boost is ridiculous let alone the costs too. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Thoughts? | ||
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jeppew
Sweden471 Posts
On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote: Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not. I have no issues with Medivac/Marauder/Ghost being the core of Terran armies, Protoss have enough stuff to make it an even fight later on. Thus, I think that the best way to balance the Marauder (and potentially Reaper) is re-introduce the Merc Haven (or Academy) and make that building a prerequisite for building the Marauder. Perhaps adding slow as an upgrade there would be good too (as well as reaper speed, if you want to put the reaper there too). This slows down how fast Terran can get the Marauder and hence makes Rushes significantly weaker. It adds an extra tech building making them less attractive in TvZ (making Mech more favorable) and should iron out any problems in TvP. Thoughts? making the slow an upgrade at the tech lab should be sufficent, the cost + time would prevent the marauder cheese rush. | ||
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Tears.Of.The.Moon
Slovenia715 Posts
The marauder could get a new pasive ability (instead of the current stun one) that would make it's atacks completely ignore enemy units armor ( an armor pircing atack or something, inspired by those antiarmor HEAT shells that tanks use).- would fit much more with an unit heavily specialied against armored targets gameplayvise, and would make much more sense than an stun ability lorevise ( lol how do you stun tanks and robots ) And they could give the stun ability to some other unit, a unit much more deserving of it, but that is for an another thread | ||
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jeppew
Sweden471 Posts
On April 06 2010 18:31 PerfectTear wrote: Instead of the marauder losing it's pasive ability , or it being an reserach, the current pasive stun ability should be replaced by a new one. The marauder could get a new pasive ability (instead of the current stun one) that would make it's atacks completely ignore enemy units armor ( an armor pircing atack or something, inspired by those antiarmor HEAT shells that tanks use).- would fit much more with an unit heavily specialied against armored targets gameplayvise, and would make much more sense than an stun ability lorevise ( lol how do you stun tanks and robots ) And they could give the stun ability to some other unit, a unit much more deserving of it, but that is for an another thread you do realise that in the very best case scenario, this is a +6 damage and nothing more? | ||
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ZenDeX
Philippines2916 Posts
On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote: Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not. I have no issues with Medivac/Marauder/Ghost being the core of Terran armies, Protoss have enough stuff to make it an even fight later on. Thus, I think that the best way to balance the Marauder (and potentially Reaper) is re-introduce the Merc Haven (or Academy) and make that building a prerequisite for building the Marauder. Perhaps adding slow as an upgrade there would be good too (as well as reaper speed, if you want to put the reaper there too). This slows down how fast Terran can get the Marauder and hence makes Rushes significantly weaker. It adds an extra tech building making them less attractive in TvZ (making Mech more favorable) and should iron out any problems in TvP. Thoughts? I am curious on how it would work out with a Reactor add-on. | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 06 2010 19:35 lolaloc wrote: I am curious on how it would work out with a Reactor add-on. The same as it does for the Ghost. Tech lab + Tech building | ||
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ZenDeX
Philippines2916 Posts
On April 06 2010 19:36 Plexa wrote: The same as it does for the Ghost. Tech lab + Tech building Errr.. I was thinking along the lines of having the ability to massing it more quickly. | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 06 2010 19:38 lolaloc wrote: Errr.. I was thinking along the lines of having the ability to massing it more quickly. Oh mmm I'm not sure heh. I don't think it would work out too well because you'd still have the ability to rush them unless the build time on the merc haven was long. If the build time was sufficiently long I don't think it would impact things too greatly. | ||
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Daerthalus
Canada73 Posts
I still think a viable solution would be to have the Marauders gain an ability that "roots" them or slows them, but enables their slow. It would have no cast time (unlike siege) but a cooldown to prevent i from being toggled on and off between attacks. Marauder Mode (5-10s CD) Slows the Marauder by 50%, but grants their attacks a 50% slow. **Numbers up to discussion** Essentially they'd be unable to kite zealots with charge or avoid being boxed in by sentrys but would still be able to slow Banelings. Banelings themselves are not that disastrous vs Mass Rauders, but they do chew threw marines, so the slow would enable marines to move away, or burn the incoming Banelings down. Seem far more viable than a 100.100 research or some new ability + 2 customizations. It's simply a change to an ability. Thoughts? | ||
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