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Most people in this thread seem to think Marauders are OP late game and in there dmg somehow where many units out dps them for a lower cost and build time somtimes.
Lets make this clear marauders are op because of the early/mid game for one reason. They lack any counter. The units that are made to counter them Zealots and zerglings get kited due to the slow. If the marauders are not microed they lose very easy to zerglings and zealots. But due to the slow they can micro these units to death. Keep in mind both zealots and zerglings do MORE dps then a marauder.
Fix make zealots and zerglings immune to slow both are cheaper and faster build time (well zealot 33 sec) do more dps and rape marauders if they can reachs them. Still will be able to back up and shoot till they get near you and will still need to micro to avoid surrounds and move dmg units out of melee range.
Also this will force terrans to go a mix again marauders and marines the rines to be behind the meat shield the maruader as the rines do the dmg to the light targets. Otherwise build a bunch of marauders oh well fuck him build a bunch of zealots or zerglings and laugh.
Units that are said to be the counter to marauders are the counter ! Late game not really changes much. Early game cheese that makes pure marauder builds OP gone.
Quick lock the forum ! just kidding lol : P
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I didn't realize at first that Zealots/Zerglings were the supposed counter to Marauders since I normally see Roaches/Immortals to take care of Marauders. Blizzard should just rework the Marauders so that players would be getting them just for the slow.
EDIT: Ok, I am an idiot for not realizing that Roaches/Immortals melt to Marauders because of the fucking HARDCOUNTER.
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United Kingdom12047 Posts
On April 06 2010 03:35 lolaloc wrote:
I didn't realize at first that Zealots/Zerglings were the supposed counter to Marauders since I normally see Roaches/Immortals to take care of Marauders. Blizzard should just rework the Marauders so that players would be getting them just for the slow.
I seriously disagree with you, if you do that, bio will be completely useless in most of the matchups again as the +damage vs armoured wouldn't be useful if they made it so you got them just for slow. An army full of just marines really wouldn't work in TvP, TvZ or TvT as they would just get rolled by the different stronger units.
Terran need marauders to stay as they are to allow them to go bio in the matchups and not get locked into teching every game. perhaps they could just put some form of internal cooldown on slow, so if a unit has been affected by it, it's immune from slow from the next few shots?
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On April 06 2010 03:35 lolaloc wrote:
I didn't realize at first that Zealots/Zerglings were the supposed counter to Marauders since I normally see Roaches/Immortals to take care of Marauders. Blizzard should just rework the Marauders so that players would be getting them just for the slow.
Marauders are the counter to roachs in blizzards eye. They are the meat for the hydras in the back like the marauders are the meat for the rines in the back but the hydras do alot more dmg lol.
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On April 06 2010 03:09 xnub wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 19:09 Paladia wrote:
Any reason why the Marauder easily beats Stalkers in 1v1 (and even more so in bigger fights) when they cost like half of what the Stalker does, yet they can be healed, stimmed, not EMPed and has a passive slow attack?
Don't come with something like "Stalker can attack air so its balanced" since there is never anything the Marauder would ever even want to attack in air in TvP, as the Protoss air is extremely lackluster. So even if they could attack air as well there would be no difference for the balance of the match-up.
As Stalker, Roach and Marauder are way too similar in design I would suggest making the Marauder melee (with some altered stats), that would balance it and make the tier 1.5 more unique. Marauders are the counter to stalkers .... it has been said so by blizzard deal with it ? Also blink harsment by stalkers is crazy and has sooo much potential. You can blink anywhere on map you have a obs. melee unit i don't even know what to say to that LOL Yeah, and Blizzard also said Marauders are suppose to be weak against Zealots. But sure, if they make Zealots strong against Marauders (like they are suppose to) I'm fine with them being strong against Stalkers. Right now 5 Zealots won't even damage a couple of Marauders. 5 Marauders even beat 5 Ultralisk, which their slow doesn't even work against and costs 5 times as much.
Cause right now they are extremely strong against both zealots and stalkers, which is just wrong.
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On April 05 2010 22:45 Sinekyre14 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 22:37 lew wrote:
But what unit do we have to make as a terran? We really got nothing... I disagree. I absolutely love massing up Marines without Medevacs and siege tanks with Raven support. Raven turret harass is absolutely underrated, you can kill 5-6 drones in two seconds. Hellions have the potential to be interesting but die like flies in late game due to critical design flaws in collision sizes in the game. Some games I'll go mass air and transition into BC's because I have map control with vikings/banshees. There are so many possibilities with Terran. Marauder just makes the games BORING and slightly easier to win.Remove the three units of imbalance completely, or nerf them.
you must have never seen tier 2 spell called (fungal growth) on a marines... leaves them with like 10hp... and Toss tier 2 units or tier 3 spell Storm... will leave them with no hp in SECONDS
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Awaiting on the TL article that calls for nerf on roaches, marauders and immortal. Hopefully Blizzard will listen.
Do this, because this is the right thing to do for this game.
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On April 06 2010 03:38 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 03:35 lolaloc wrote:
I didn't realize at first that Zealots/Zerglings were the supposed counter to Marauders since I normally see Roaches/Immortals to take care of Marauders. Blizzard should just rework the Marauders so that players would be getting them just for the slow. I seriously disagree with you, if you do that, bio will be completely useless in most of the matchups again as the +damage vs armoured wouldn't be useful if they made it so you got them just for slow. An army full of just marines really wouldn't work in TvP, TvZ or TvT as they would just get rolled by the different stronger units. Terran need marauders to stay as they are to allow them to go bio in the matchups and not get locked into teching every game. perhaps they could just put some form of internal cooldown on slow, so if a unit has been affected by it, it's immune from slow from the next few shots?
ok cool idea but still could kite the units that are made to counter them unless its a really long CD but then it effecets other targets of slow .
Quick and easy way just make them pure immune they should not counter there counters. Period lol
Also this would be the best way to keep them as they are no dmg change no health change. Can still be the meat of the shield. Slow is still there to catch the retreating units and slow the incoming banlings of death and slow harsment units.
Really just make the 2 tier 1 melee units immune to slow.
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On April 06 2010 03:38 Qikz wrote:
I seriously disagree with you, if you do that, bio will be completely useless in most of the matchups again as the +damage vs armoured wouldn't be useful if they made it so you got them just for slow. An army full of just marines really wouldn't work in TvP, TvZ or TvT as they would just get rolled by the different stronger units.
Terran need marauders to stay as they are to allow them to go bio in the matchups and not get locked into teching every game. perhaps they could just put some form of internal cooldown on slow, so if a unit has been affected by it, it's immune from slow from the next few shots?
So you would rather have stale gameplay then? It seems you have accepted the role of marauders being the hard-counter of armored units. Well if this is the case then, I don't see the logic of giving it slow other than making the unit more overpowered.
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On April 06 2010 03:40 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 03:09 xnub wrote:On April 05 2010 19:09 Paladia wrote:
Any reason why the Marauder easily beats Stalkers in 1v1 (and even more so in bigger fights) when they cost like half of what the Stalker does, yet they can be healed, stimmed, not EMPed and has a passive slow attack?
Don't come with something like "Stalker can attack air so its balanced" since there is never anything the Marauder would ever even want to attack in air in TvP, as the Protoss air is extremely lackluster. So even if they could attack air as well there would be no difference for the balance of the match-up.
As Stalker, Roach and Marauder are way too similar in design I would suggest making the Marauder melee (with some altered stats), that would balance it and make the tier 1.5 more unique. Marauders are the counter to stalkers .... it has been said so by blizzard deal with it ? Also blink harsment by stalkers is crazy and has sooo much potential. You can blink anywhere on map you have a obs. melee unit i don't even know what to say to that LOL Yeah, and Blizzard also said Marauders are suppose to be weak against Zealots. But sure, if they make Zealots strong against Marauders (like they are suppose to) I'm fine with them being strong against Stalkers. Right now 5 Zealots won't even damage a couple of Marauders. 5 Marauders even beat 5 Ultralisk, which their slow doesn't even work against and costs 5 times as much. Cause right now they are extremely strong against both zealots and stalkers, which is just wrong.
5 marauders can't beat 5 ultras nicce try tho adn agian my top post fix the zealot problem. (page 22 top)
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On April 06 2010 03:51 xnub wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 03:40 Paladia wrote:On April 06 2010 03:09 xnub wrote:On April 05 2010 19:09 Paladia wrote:
Any reason why the Marauder easily beats Stalkers in 1v1 (and even more so in bigger fights) when they cost like half of what the Stalker does, yet they can be healed, stimmed, not EMPed and has a passive slow attack?
Don't come with something like "Stalker can attack air so its balanced" since there is never anything the Marauder would ever even want to attack in air in TvP, as the Protoss air is extremely lackluster. So even if they could attack air as well there would be no difference for the balance of the match-up.
As Stalker, Roach and Marauder are way too similar in design I would suggest making the Marauder melee (with some altered stats), that would balance it and make the tier 1.5 more unique. Marauders are the counter to stalkers .... it has been said so by blizzard deal with it ? Also blink harsment by stalkers is crazy and has sooo much potential. You can blink anywhere on map you have a obs. melee unit i don't even know what to say to that LOL Yeah, and Blizzard also said Marauders are suppose to be weak against Zealots. But sure, if they make Zealots strong against Marauders (like they are suppose to) I'm fine with them being strong against Stalkers. Right now 5 Zealots won't even damage a couple of Marauders. 5 Marauders even beat 5 Ultralisk, which their slow doesn't even work against and costs 5 times as much. Cause right now they are extremely strong against both zealots and stalkers, which is just wrong. 5 marauders can't beat 5 ultras nicce try tho adn agian my top post fix the zealot problem. (page 22 top)
Actually, they can. Just stim and move around, ultras aint going to get close.
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On April 06 2010 03:55 Koffiegast wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 03:51 xnub wrote:On April 06 2010 03:40 Paladia wrote:On April 06 2010 03:09 xnub wrote:On April 05 2010 19:09 Paladia wrote:
Any reason why the Marauder easily beats Stalkers in 1v1 (and even more so in bigger fights) when they cost like half of what the Stalker does, yet they can be healed, stimmed, not EMPed and has a passive slow attack?
Don't come with something like "Stalker can attack air so its balanced" since there is never anything the Marauder would ever even want to attack in air in TvP, as the Protoss air is extremely lackluster. So even if they could attack air as well there would be no difference for the balance of the match-up.
As Stalker, Roach and Marauder are way too similar in design I would suggest making the Marauder melee (with some altered stats), that would balance it and make the tier 1.5 more unique. Marauders are the counter to stalkers .... it has been said so by blizzard deal with it ? Also blink harsment by stalkers is crazy and has sooo much potential. You can blink anywhere on map you have a obs. melee unit i don't even know what to say to that LOL Yeah, and Blizzard also said Marauders are suppose to be weak against Zealots. But sure, if they make Zealots strong against Marauders (like they are suppose to) I'm fine with them being strong against Stalkers. Right now 5 Zealots won't even damage a couple of Marauders. 5 Marauders even beat 5 Ultralisk, which their slow doesn't even work against and costs 5 times as much. Cause right now they are extremely strong against both zealots and stalkers, which is just wrong. 5 marauders can't beat 5 ultras nicce try tho adn agian my top post fix the zealot problem. (page 22 top) Actually, they can. Just stim and move around, ultras aint going to get close.
till stim wears off and they die. Also not to mention ultras are faster then stimed marauders on creep
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I am attack moving my units into someone who uses micro and i lose -> imba!
Isn't that actualy the thing everyone wants to be more present in sc2?
Try to flank the Marauders, then they can't micro away!
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On April 06 2010 03:51 lolaloc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 03:38 Qikz wrote:
I seriously disagree with you, if you do that, bio will be completely useless in most of the matchups again as the +damage vs armoured wouldn't be useful if they made it so you got them just for slow. An army full of just marines really wouldn't work in TvP, TvZ or TvT as they would just get rolled by the different stronger units.
Terran need marauders to stay as they are to allow them to go bio in the matchups and not get locked into teching every game. perhaps they could just put some form of internal cooldown on slow, so if a unit has been affected by it, it's immune from slow from the next few shots? So you would rather have stale gameplay then? It seems you have accepted the role of marauders being the hard-counter of armored units. Well if this is the case then, I don't see the logic of giving it slow other than making the unit more overpowered.
@Qikz : Are you complaining that you don't want Terran to have to tech to stay in the game when Protoss has to tech up at least two trees to even be competitive? (Robotics and Templar)
@xnub : Do you know what a medivac is? Are you assuming that Terran won't have medivacs when Zerg has got Ultralisks?
The problem is that all of the other Terran units are a much larger investment than the Marauder and don't deal as much damage as a bunch of Marauders do. The Marauder should be changed in this way:
-lower hp
-increased build time
-lower mineral cost
-lower base attack strength but maintain bonus damage to armored.
-maintain slow as it is.
This way, it will not be as useful on its own than if it were supported by other units of different Tiers.
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On April 06 2010 04:01 LunarC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 03:51 lolaloc wrote:On April 06 2010 03:38 Qikz wrote:
I seriously disagree with you, if you do that, bio will be completely useless in most of the matchups again as the +damage vs armoured wouldn't be useful if they made it so you got them just for slow. An army full of just marines really wouldn't work in TvP, TvZ or TvT as they would just get rolled by the different stronger units.
Terran need marauders to stay as they are to allow them to go bio in the matchups and not get locked into teching every game. perhaps they could just put some form of internal cooldown on slow, so if a unit has been affected by it, it's immune from slow from the next few shots? So you would rather have stale gameplay then? It seems you have accepted the role of marauders being the hard-counter of armored units. Well if this is the case then, I don't see the logic of giving it slow other than making the unit more overpowered. @Qikz : Are you complaining that you don't want Terran to have to tech to stay in the game when Protoss has to tech up at least two trees to even be competitive? (Robotics and Templar) The problem is that all of the other Terran units are a much larger investment than the Marauder and don't deal as much damage as a bunch of Marauders do. The Marauder should be changed in this way: -lower hp -increased build time -lower mineral cost -lower base attack strength but maintain bonus damage to armored. -maintain slow as it is. This way, it will not be as useful on its own than if it were supported by other units of different Tiers.
Again read top page 22 top post cause this does not fix the problem with marauders you are trying to fix a problem that is not there with these changes.
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On April 06 2010 03:38 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 03:35 lolaloc wrote:
I didn't realize at first that Zealots/Zerglings were the supposed counter to Marauders since I normally see Roaches/Immortals to take care of Marauders. Blizzard should just rework the Marauders so that players would be getting them just for the slow. I seriously disagree with you, if you do that, bio will be completely useless in most of the matchups again as the +damage vs armoured wouldn't be useful if they made it so you got them just for slow. An army full of just marines really wouldn't work in TvP, TvZ or TvT as they would just get rolled by the different stronger units. Terran need marauders to stay as they are to allow them to go bio in the matchups and not get locked into teching every game. perhaps they could just put some form of internal cooldown on slow, so if a unit has been affected by it, it's immune from slow from the next few shots?
I think instead of getting marauders just for the slow, it should be the other way around, they should do just the damage, the slowing effect is just rediculous. marauders have no hard counter really in the early game. speedlings are the only unit thats similar to hard counter but in the mid game that hard counter does not exist due to being killed by marines or tanks before they can even touch the marauders. In the mid game, if zerg uses their 2 hard counters (roach, ling) vs the terran hard counters (marine marauder), if both players micro properly its impossible for zerg to win. The marines outrange the lings to protect the marauders and the marauders outrange the roaches to protect the marines. Sure you can get hydra or whatever, but the fact remains that there is no hard counter against marauder in mid game or later.
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On April 06 2010 04:07 Disastorm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 03:38 Qikz wrote:On April 06 2010 03:35 lolaloc wrote:
I didn't realize at first that Zealots/Zerglings were the supposed counter to Marauders since I normally see Roaches/Immortals to take care of Marauders. Blizzard should just rework the Marauders so that players would be getting them just for the slow. I seriously disagree with you, if you do that, bio will be completely useless in most of the matchups again as the +damage vs armoured wouldn't be useful if they made it so you got them just for slow. An army full of just marines really wouldn't work in TvP, TvZ or TvT as they would just get rolled by the different stronger units. Terran need marauders to stay as they are to allow them to go bio in the matchups and not get locked into teching every game. perhaps they could just put some form of internal cooldown on slow, so if a unit has been affected by it, it's immune from slow from the next few shots? I think instead of getting marauders just for the slow, it should be the other way around, they should do just the damage, the slowing effect is just rediculous. marauders have no hard counter really in the early game. speedlings are the only unit thats similar to hard counter but in the mid game that hard counter does not exist due to being killed by marines or tanks before they can even touch the marauders. In the mid game, if zerg uses their 2 hard counters (roach, ling) vs the terran hard counters (marine marauder), if both players micro properly its impossible for zerg to win. The marines outrange the lings to protect the marauders and the marauders outrange the roaches to protect the marines. Sure you can get hydra or whatever, but the fact remains that there is no hard counter against marauder in mid game or later.
1 marine do more dmg to light target then 1 marauders
2 marines do more dmg to armored target then 1 maruder (lower cost lower build time)
just figue i point that out
Also hydras are the counter to marauder mid/late game so i have no idea what you are talking about there.
Roachs as the meat with hydras in the back rape MM (hydras and roachs both do more dmg then both MM) besides when he hits the roachs
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I just came to the conclusion that Marauders have a dual role of countering armored units and melee units. Devs should make up their minds and choose between:
a) +dmg vs armored
b) passive slow on attack
It's because of that dual role that causes Zerg and Protoss to get higher tech units just to deal with Marauders being Lair Tech Units and Robotics/Templar respectively.
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On April 06 2010 04:21 lolaloc wrote:
I just came to the conclusion that Marauders have a dual role of countering armored units and melee units. Devs should make up their minds and choose between:
a) +dmg vs armored
b) passive slow on attack
It's because of that dual role that causes Zerg and Protoss to get higher tech units just to deal with Marauders being Lair Tech Units and Robotics/Templar respectively.
yes ty but they can't do # 1 cause then bio would have no armor counter.
#2 removeing it would make the unit very boreing and would need to add in somthing else for it to do. Removing the slow effect from Zealots and zerglings only don't have to add a new ability to balance not a boreing unit and they still can slow lots of units to be usefull.
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On April 06 2010 04:31 xnub wrote:
yes ty but they can't do # 1 cause then bio would have no armor counter.
What? You like the hard counter system? Can't Terran players just be more creative in dealing with Stalkers, Immortals and Colossi?
On April 06 2010 04:31 xnub wrote:
#2 removeing it would make the unit very boreing and would need to add in somthing else for it to do. Removing the slow effect from Zealots and zerglings only don't have to add a new ability to balance not a boreing unit and they still can slow lots of units to be usefull.
I am leaning on the first choice. But anyway, I think restricting the slow to being only applicable to armored units wouldn't make a lot of sense. Why the fuck would you need to slow them?
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EPT
