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On April 05 2010 23:49 kickinhead wrote:
I've followed the development of SC1 for years and Blizzard always said that they wouldn't go for the rock-paper-scissor-stuff, so WTF happened with that? We now have Units that deal double and more to certain Unit-types and absorb a huge number of DMG against certain Units - WTF?
Please realize that SC1 had a rough hard-counter system with 3 types of damage and 3 types of armor.
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On April 05 2010 23:36 Zoltan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 22:53 Paladia wrote:On April 05 2010 21:52 lew wrote:
I just played a game where I attacked with 7 stimmed maurauder. My enemy had 1 centry, 2 zealots, 2 immortals and 1 stalker. He didn't lose 1 single unit. All thoses protosses are whining because their race was easy in sc1. This is obviously the problem right here. Terrans just massing one unit, as you yourself admit, nowadays they don't even need to bother with other units to win. However, when the opponent skills and bring a fully thought out balanced army of 4 different units with caster support against this 1 terran mass, it's an imbalance? Not only that, the Protoss army costs twice as much. Just those two Immortals alone costs as much as your Marauders. Can you give any valid reason why the Marauders shouldn't instantly lose in that scenario? Are you so boxed in your mind that you think massing one unit of yours should beat a well balanced army that costs twice as much? Why didn't you bring any other unit? Why not bring a ghost, that would perfectly counter the sentry and the immortals. Uhm actually the fact that he got rocked says its pretty balanced, since the toss didnt lose one unit and his army was only slightly larger and more expensive....
There's something wrong with his 7 marauders if he didn't land a single kill. Sentry first, then micro and take out the zealots, then the immortals, then reinforce, then pwn with marauders.
Rinse. Repeat.
The fact that he said that means he's probably a newb or a troll, either way he's a fool.
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On April 06 2010 00:02 RPGabe wrote:
I just played a game where I attacked with 7 stimmed maurauder. My enemy had 1 centry, 2 zealots, 2 immortals and 1 stalker. He didn't lose 1 single unit. All thoses protosses are whining because their race was easy in sc1.
First of all, not everybody playing Protoss in SC1 is playing them in SC2, personally, I think that many ppl changed races because they feel quite different and are played quite different than in SC1.
Then, if you attack with pure Marauders into 2 Immortals AFTER stimming them, you're doomed to fail big time. Immos suck up half the DMG of Marauders and deal more than double amount of DMG against them, what did you expect? Also, if you didn't kill anything you clearly didn't micro anything above A-move, because Marauders deal 20 DMG to Stalkers (which makes 8-9 Marauder-shots, depending on whether Guardian-Shield is on or not) and 10 to Sentrys (which equals also 8-9 shots, depending on Shield being on or not), so you could've easily sniped the stalker and Sentrys and retreat and come back with EMP + Marines if the Protoss went for a lot of Immortals.
Best solution would've been not to stupidly attack into a Unit-composition that is basically a direct hard-counter to your Units and just w8 for EMP and marines... You really can't expect Marauders to even beat the counter-units, although even with pure-marauders, you just need 1 well-placed EMP to shred Immos into little pieces within seconds while expanding at the same time. ^^'
Also, marauders get out so soon, on certain Maps (LT close-position), you can just walk over there and snipe the pylon powering the gateways before 1 Stalker gets out. xD
@lolaloc: True, but it wasn't nearly as bad as in SC2. It didn't force you into playing certain Units, you could've used Unit creatively to counter stuff in different ways, not like in SC2, were it's clear that Blizzard had a direct counter in mind they want us to ply when facing let's say roaches or Marauders as Protoss, the counter here being the Immortals.
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On April 05 2010 21:15 Dx Fx wrote:
I serious don't understand the behavior of people.
"We want to make Tanks better vs P".
It's an pretty nice argument, but in the same you refuse to change the diversity... You want to nerf P as exchange for T, claiming this would be necessary to balance the game. Actually it's an simple excuse to keep 1 Unit massed as core and don't be forced like P to have tons of different units at once.
P's HT are nerfed because they were to "powerful" vs the M&M ball, actually just vs Marines. Toss is being pushed to go Robo, because it's simple better to do it right now. Now there is a claim to nerf Toss Robo, so T can go easy mode and without any effort of diversity to Tanks, because if immortals are not a threat anymore there is no need to build counter measures vs them and you can simple go mass.
In the end nothing would change expect the fact that the core unit for T would change.
what race do you play?
Protoss is harder than Terran in the first 4? minutes of the game, after that Protoss can go "easy mode" and use the HTs/Colossus aka "i win button". People need some Brain... seriously if i can win with Stalkers+Blink only against mass Marauders why cant other? Yes yu need more than A-Move and yes you need to micro every stalker but thats what all were missing in sc2. I really have the feeling that most Protoss are used to their "i am Protoss i build just Zealots and Goons and A-Move and if the Terran isnt 2*Times better i should win easy" mentally from sc1. Now times have changed and this is sc2 and now Protoss needs to micro more and to give away mapcontroll first. live with it or go back and play sc1.
On April 05 2010 22:43 Dx Fx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 22:37 lew wrote:
But what unit do we have to make as a terran? We really got nothing... Another prove that T compares all other T units with Marauder and comes to the result that they are not that cost effective as Marauders, so keep building them instead of unit mix.
it has nothing to do with cost effective, its just that everything else gets HARDcountered (way cheaper) by Protoss.
- Marines countered by Stalker or HTs or Colossus or any other unit with Guardian Shield
- Hellions countered by any ranged Unit
- Banshees countered by Any AtA Unit
- Thor countered by Immortal
- Tank countered by Immortal
- Viking countered by Stalker
- Ghost countered by Feedback (one HT can Feedback 4 Ghosts rofl)
- Reaper countred by everything except slow Zeals
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I dont know why i keep seeing these threads .. People just dont know how to play.. its not the units that are imbal its people's mindset in the game that hold's them back from actually playing the game correctly.. Asia server is dominated by Protoss/Zerg for a reason and according to artosis and idra there miles ahead of us ( so they say ). Yes maraurder spam might seem "lame/boring" but We wont see mech TvP unless they get rid of half the toss units and there abbility's.. charge blink pheonix and lets not forget IMMORTAL...
terran would not wins games without the marauder.
if we want to talk about somthing that is broken lets talk about how a queen can put 100000 larva around 1 hatch late game.. and be maxed again without ever making another hatchery.. (not investing any money into being able to reproduce 10000x faster then any other race) while terran and toss have to build more and more gateways rax starports ECT.
my 2 cents on the matter 
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On April 06 2010 00:12 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 00:02 RPGabe wrote:
I just played a game where I attacked with 7 stimmed maurauder. My enemy had 1 centry, 2 zealots, 2 immortals and 1 stalker. He didn't lose 1 single unit. All thoses protosses are whining because their race was easy in sc1.
Ahh, I didn't say that, Lew did. Please don't quote me as making that goofy army comparison :p
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On April 06 2010 00:25 MeProU_Kor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 21:15 Dx Fx wrote:
I serious don't understand the behavior of people.
"We want to make Tanks better vs P".
It's an pretty nice argument, but in the same you refuse to change the diversity... You want to nerf P as exchange for T, claiming this would be necessary to balance the game. Actually it's an simple excuse to keep 1 Unit massed as core and don't be forced like P to have tons of different units at once.
P's HT are nerfed because they were to "powerful" vs the M&M ball, actually just vs Marines. Toss is being pushed to go Robo, because it's simple better to do it right now. Now there is a claim to nerf Toss Robo, so T can go easy mode and without any effort of diversity to Tanks, because if immortals are not a threat anymore there is no need to build counter measures vs them and you can simple go mass.
In the end nothing would change expect the fact that the core unit for T would change. what race do you play? Protoss is harder than Terran in the first 4? minutes of the game, after that Protoss can go "easy mode" and use the HTs/Colossus aka "i win button". People need some Brain... seriously if i can win with Stalkers+Blink only against mass Marauders why cant other? Yes yu need more than A-Move and yes you need to micro every stalker but thats what all were missing in sc2. I really have the feeling that most Protoss are used to their "i am Protoss i build just Zealots and Goons and A-Move and if the Terran isnt 2*Times better i should win easy" mentally from sc1. Now times have changed and this is sc2 and now Protoss needs to micro more and to give away mapcontroll first. live with it or go back and play sc1. Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 22:43 Dx Fx wrote:On April 05 2010 22:37 lew wrote:
But what unit do we have to make as a terran? We really got nothing... Another prove that T compares all other T units with Marauder and comes to the result that they are not that cost effective as Marauders, so keep building them instead of unit mix. it has nothing to do with cost effective, its just that everything else gets HARDcountered (way cheaper) by Protoss. - Marines countered by Stalker or HTs or Colossus or any other unit with Guardian Shield - Hellions countered by any ranged Unit - Banshees countered by Any AtA Unit - Thor countered by Immortal - Tank countered by Immortal - Viking countered by Stalker - Ghost countered by Feedback (one HT can Feedback 4 Ghosts rofl) - Reaper countred by everything except slow Zeals
Lol. Although it is possible to win with mass Stalkers + fast Blink on certain maps, you will never be able to hold it in the long run. That strategy gives you a small window of opportunity to either win or seriously damage your opponent if you have the right timing and macro, but time plays against you and the longer the game goes on, the harder the Marauders will kick your ass. Why ? Simply because Stalkers can't win against Marauders with the same amount of units and same upgrades (should I remind you that Marauders are cheaper, ergo easier to mass up?), due to the fact that Marauders deal 20 damage while Stalkers only deal 14. You can indeed micro with Blink but it won't get you so far.
It is also certain that we have only explored like 15% of the game strategywise, so maybe things will change. But right now and for a few weeks now, the Terran gameplay is stuck in Marauder mode. As long as this doesn't change, the game will stay frozen and new strategies will not see the light of day unless that unit somehow loses the ability to hold off diversified army all by itself.
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I'd be happy to trade the Marauder's slowing attack for vulture mines, mech in it's current state is a joke... and i miss sc1 mech
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Russian Federation85 Posts
On April 06 2010 00:25 MeProU_Kor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 21:15 Dx Fx wrote:
I serious don't understand the behavior of people.
"We want to make Tanks better vs P".
It's an pretty nice argument, but in the same you refuse to change the diversity... You want to nerf P as exchange for T, claiming this would be necessary to balance the game. Actually it's an simple excuse to keep 1 Unit massed as core and don't be forced like P to have tons of different units at once.
P's HT are nerfed because they were to "powerful" vs the M&M ball, actually just vs Marines. Toss is being pushed to go Robo, because it's simple better to do it right now. Now there is a claim to nerf Toss Robo, so T can go easy mode and without any effort of diversity to Tanks, because if immortals are not a threat anymore there is no need to build counter measures vs them and you can simple go mass.
In the end nothing would change expect the fact that the core unit for T would change. what race do you play? Protoss is harder than Terran in the first 4? minutes of the game, after that Protoss can go "easy mode" and use the HTs/Colossus aka "i win button". People need some Brain... seriously if i can win with Stalkers+Blink only against mass Marauders why cant other? Yes yu need more than A-Move and yes you need to micro every stalker but thats what all were missing in sc2. I really have the feeling that most Protoss are used to their "i am Protoss i build just Zealots and Goons and A-Move and if the Terran isnt 2*Times better i should win easy" mentally from sc1. Now times have changed and this is sc2 and now Protoss needs to micro more and to give away mapcontroll first. live with it or go back and play sc1. Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 22:43 Dx Fx wrote:On April 05 2010 22:37 lew wrote:
But what unit do we have to make as a terran? We really got nothing... Another prove that T compares all other T units with Marauder and comes to the result that they are not that cost effective as Marauders, so keep building them instead of unit mix. it has nothing to do with cost effective, its just that everything else gets HARDcountered (way cheaper) by Protoss. - Marines countered by Stalker or HTs or Colossus or any other unit with Guardian Shield - Hellions countered by any ranged Unit - Banshees countered by Any AtA Unit - Thor countered by Immortal - Tank countered by Immortal - Viking countered by Stalker - Ghost countered by Feedback (one HT can Feedback 4 Ghosts rofl) - Reaper countred by everything except slow Zeals
Simple lol.... especially the HARD-counter part...
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On April 06 2010 00:54 Dx Fx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 00:25 MeProU_Kor wrote:On April 05 2010 21:15 Dx Fx wrote:
I serious don't understand the behavior of people.
"We want to make Tanks better vs P".
It's an pretty nice argument, but in the same you refuse to change the diversity... You want to nerf P as exchange for T, claiming this would be necessary to balance the game. Actually it's an simple excuse to keep 1 Unit massed as core and don't be forced like P to have tons of different units at once.
P's HT are nerfed because they were to "powerful" vs the M&M ball, actually just vs Marines. Toss is being pushed to go Robo, because it's simple better to do it right now. Now there is a claim to nerf Toss Robo, so T can go easy mode and without any effort of diversity to Tanks, because if immortals are not a threat anymore there is no need to build counter measures vs them and you can simple go mass.
In the end nothing would change expect the fact that the core unit for T would change. what race do you play? Protoss is harder than Terran in the first 4? minutes of the game, after that Protoss can go "easy mode" and use the HTs/Colossus aka "i win button". People need some Brain... seriously if i can win with Stalkers+Blink only against mass Marauders why cant other? Yes yu need more than A-Move and yes you need to micro every stalker but thats what all were missing in sc2. I really have the feeling that most Protoss are used to their "i am Protoss i build just Zealots and Goons and A-Move and if the Terran isnt 2*Times better i should win easy" mentally from sc1. Now times have changed and this is sc2 and now Protoss needs to micro more and to give away mapcontroll first. live with it or go back and play sc1. On April 05 2010 22:43 Dx Fx wrote:On April 05 2010 22:37 lew wrote:
But what unit do we have to make as a terran? We really got nothing... Another prove that T compares all other T units with Marauder and comes to the result that they are not that cost effective as Marauders, so keep building them instead of unit mix. it has nothing to do with cost effective, its just that everything else gets HARDcountered (way cheaper) by Protoss. - Marines countered by Stalker or HTs or Colossus or any other unit with Guardian Shield - Hellions countered by any ranged Unit - Banshees countered by Any AtA Unit - Thor countered by Immortal - Tank countered by Immortal - Viking countered by Stalker - Ghost countered by Feedback (one HT can Feedback 4 Ghosts rofl) - Reaper countred by everything except slow Zeals Simple lol.... especially the HARD-counter part...
yes its lol because a stalker needs 4 hits to kill a marine + has more range
yes its lol because a HT can kill ~20 rines with 1 Storm
yes its lol because a 50/150 HT can Feeback 4*150/150 Ghosts
yes its lol because a Immortal can kill (put any ridiculous number here) tanks.
seriously its getting ridiculous that all this C&C guys hijack every balance threads and want to nerf every other that isnt available for thei own race.
first of all right now every one sucks in this game and in 2 weeks whole matchups can completly change just by finding a good timingpush or a way to get a faster expansion etc.
yesterday i played wit a firend who made some nice/interesting build that i never saw on ladder and its very simple and very effective. this alone told me that balance discussions at this stage are just stupid, because 80% of the beta user blow totally and the other 20% (Platinum) just explored like 10% of the game.
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On April 06 2010 01:25 MeProU_Kor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 00:54 Dx Fx wrote:On April 06 2010 00:25 MeProU_Kor wrote:On April 05 2010 21:15 Dx Fx wrote:
I serious don't understand the behavior of people.
"We want to make Tanks better vs P".
It's an pretty nice argument, but in the same you refuse to change the diversity... You want to nerf P as exchange for T, claiming this would be necessary to balance the game. Actually it's an simple excuse to keep 1 Unit massed as core and don't be forced like P to have tons of different units at once.
P's HT are nerfed because they were to "powerful" vs the M&M ball, actually just vs Marines. Toss is being pushed to go Robo, because it's simple better to do it right now. Now there is a claim to nerf Toss Robo, so T can go easy mode and without any effort of diversity to Tanks, because if immortals are not a threat anymore there is no need to build counter measures vs them and you can simple go mass.
In the end nothing would change expect the fact that the core unit for T would change. what race do you play? Protoss is harder than Terran in the first 4? minutes of the game, after that Protoss can go "easy mode" and use the HTs/Colossus aka "i win button". People need some Brain... seriously if i can win with Stalkers+Blink only against mass Marauders why cant other? Yes yu need more than A-Move and yes you need to micro every stalker but thats what all were missing in sc2. I really have the feeling that most Protoss are used to their "i am Protoss i build just Zealots and Goons and A-Move and if the Terran isnt 2*Times better i should win easy" mentally from sc1. Now times have changed and this is sc2 and now Protoss needs to micro more and to give away mapcontroll first. live with it or go back and play sc1. On April 05 2010 22:43 Dx Fx wrote:On April 05 2010 22:37 lew wrote:
But what unit do we have to make as a terran? We really got nothing... Another prove that T compares all other T units with Marauder and comes to the result that they are not that cost effective as Marauders, so keep building them instead of unit mix. it has nothing to do with cost effective, its just that everything else gets HARDcountered (way cheaper) by Protoss. - Marines countered by Stalker or HTs or Colossus or any other unit with Guardian Shield - Hellions countered by any ranged Unit - Banshees countered by Any AtA Unit - Thor countered by Immortal - Tank countered by Immortal - Viking countered by Stalker - Ghost countered by Feedback (one HT can Feedback 4 Ghosts rofl) - Reaper countred by everything except slow Zeals Simple lol.... especially the HARD-counter part... yes its lol because a stalker needs 4 hits to kill a marine + has more range yes its lol because a HT can kill ~20 rines with 1 Storm yes its lol because a 50/150 HT can Feeback 4*150/150 Ghosts yes its lol because a Immortal can kill (put any ridiculous number here) tanks. seriously its getting ridiculous that all this C&C guys hijack every balance threads and want to nerf every other that isnt available for thei own race. first of all right now every one sucks in this game and in 2 weeks whole matchups can completly change just by finding a good timingpush or a way to get a faster expansion etc. yesterday i played wit a firend who made some nice/interesting build that i never saw on ladder and its very simple and very effective. this alone told me that balance discussions at this stage are just stupid, because 80% of the beta user blow totally and the other 20% (Platinum) just explored like 10% of the game.
Do you even have beta?
Stalkers do 10 damage to marines and marines have 45 hp. Hence it takes 5 hits to kill a marine, not 4. Wtih proper micro stalkers can kill marines, yes, but only before stim comes into play.
1 Storm can kill 99999999 marines if the Terran is stupid enough to leave all his marines in the duration of the storm. If the Terran has basic micro skills 1 Storm won't kill jack shit.
The only time a HT will Feedback 4 Ghost is when they have full energy. If they have full energy the Terran is doing something wrong by never harassing Protoss and letting their HTs get up to full energy. That takes quite a while buddy. Also, 4 Ghost v 1 HT and you can't get off one EMP? Really now?
Immortals can kill a large number of tanks but if you're trying to attack Immortals with tanks you deserve to lose. Don't get tanks when they get Immortals. Get marines. They're cheaper and with stim they eat through Immortals like they aren't even there.
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On April 06 2010 00:02 RPGabe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 21:52 lew wrote:
I just played a game where I attacked with 7 stimmed maurauder. My enemy had 1 centry, 2 zealots, 2 immortals and 1 stalker. He didn't lose 1 single unit. All thoses protosses are whining because their race was easy in sc1. It's actually pretty close in terms of resources. 7 marauders with stim is 850 minerals 325 gas the protoss army in that example is 875 minerals, 350 gas. Huh? 7 Marauders have half the gas cost of the Protoss army (175). Not to mention it's a lower tech so you don't even need tier 2 structures such as robo bay (which is another 200 gas and 200 minerals). On top of that it takes much longer to get to the P tech level.
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On April 06 2010 00:25 Lz wrote:
I dont know why i keep seeing these threads .. People just dont know how to play.. its not the units that are imbal its people's mindset in the game that hold's them back from actually playing the game correctly..
What the f.. are you serious?
Please explain how people can change their "mindset" to deal with a perma-snare unit that moves like a speedling with stim and has tank hp/armor?
I have seen good asian toss play, but i've never seen one foil marauder cheese.
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Russian Federation85 Posts
Sorry, but Immortals cannot kill tons of Tanks.
If the ratio is 3vs1 without any micro the Tanks will rape the immortals ( and that should be this way, after 3 Tanks cost much more as 1 Immortal).
Ratio is 2vs1 then the favor is to Immortals but Siege Tanks have the Range advantage of 2, so it's a battle of micro.
In 1vs1, don't even try to mess with Tanks vs Immortals.
If you siege up Tanks vs Immortals you deserve to lose since you waste all your dmg.
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On April 06 2010 01:48 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 01:25 MeProU_Kor wrote:On April 06 2010 00:54 Dx Fx wrote:On April 06 2010 00:25 MeProU_Kor wrote:On April 05 2010 21:15 Dx Fx wrote:
I serious don't understand the behavior of people.
"We want to make Tanks better vs P".
It's an pretty nice argument, but in the same you refuse to change the diversity... You want to nerf P as exchange for T, claiming this would be necessary to balance the game. Actually it's an simple excuse to keep 1 Unit massed as core and don't be forced like P to have tons of different units at once.
P's HT are nerfed because they were to "powerful" vs the M&M ball, actually just vs Marines. Toss is being pushed to go Robo, because it's simple better to do it right now. Now there is a claim to nerf Toss Robo, so T can go easy mode and without any effort of diversity to Tanks, because if immortals are not a threat anymore there is no need to build counter measures vs them and you can simple go mass.
In the end nothing would change expect the fact that the core unit for T would change. what race do you play? Protoss is harder than Terran in the first 4? minutes of the game, after that Protoss can go "easy mode" and use the HTs/Colossus aka "i win button". People need some Brain... seriously if i can win with Stalkers+Blink only against mass Marauders why cant other? Yes yu need more than A-Move and yes you need to micro every stalker but thats what all were missing in sc2. I really have the feeling that most Protoss are used to their "i am Protoss i build just Zealots and Goons and A-Move and if the Terran isnt 2*Times better i should win easy" mentally from sc1. Now times have changed and this is sc2 and now Protoss needs to micro more and to give away mapcontroll first. live with it or go back and play sc1. On April 05 2010 22:43 Dx Fx wrote:On April 05 2010 22:37 lew wrote:
But what unit do we have to make as a terran? We really got nothing... Another prove that T compares all other T units with Marauder and comes to the result that they are not that cost effective as Marauders, so keep building them instead of unit mix. it has nothing to do with cost effective, its just that everything else gets HARDcountered (way cheaper) by Protoss. - Marines countered by Stalker or HTs or Colossus or any other unit with Guardian Shield - Hellions countered by any ranged Unit - Banshees countered by Any AtA Unit - Thor countered by Immortal - Tank countered by Immortal - Viking countered by Stalker - Ghost countered by Feedback (one HT can Feedback 4 Ghosts rofl) - Reaper countred by everything except slow Zeals Simple lol.... especially the HARD-counter part... yes its lol because a stalker needs 4 hits to kill a marine + has more range yes its lol because a HT can kill ~20 rines with 1 Storm yes its lol because a 50/150 HT can Feeback 4*150/150 Ghosts yes its lol because a Immortal can kill (put any ridiculous number here) tanks. seriously its getting ridiculous that all this C&C guys hijack every balance threads and want to nerf every other that isnt available for thei own race. first of all right now every one sucks in this game and in 2 weeks whole matchups can completly change just by finding a good timingpush or a way to get a faster expansion etc. yesterday i played wit a firend who made some nice/interesting build that i never saw on ladder and its very simple and very effective. this alone told me that balance discussions at this stage are just stupid, because 80% of the beta user blow totally and the other 20% (Platinum) just explored like 10% of the game. Do you even have beta? Stalkers do 10 damage to marines and marines have 45 hp. Hence it takes 5 hits to kill a marine, not 4. Wtih proper micro stalkers can kill marines, yes, but only before stim comes into play. 1 Storm can kill 99999999 marines if the Terran is stupid enough to leave all his marines in the duration of the storm. If the Terran has basic micro skills 1 Storm won't kill jack shit. The only time a HT will Feedback 4 Ghost is when they have full energy. If they have full energy the Terran is doing something wrong by never harassing Protoss and letting their HTs get up to full energy. That takes quite a while buddy. Also, 4 Ghost v 1 HT and you can't get off one EMP? Really now? Immortals can kill a large number of tanks but if you're trying to attack Immortals with tanks you deserve to lose. Don't get tanks when they get Immortals. Get marines. They're cheaper and with stim they eat through Immortals like they aren't even there.
yes i have the beta and atm i am platinum place 7 with 1450-1500 points. I played like 80% of my games with P and 10% T and 10% Z.
1) marines without Stim suck anyway thats why i said 4 hits since marines are nearly useless without it (45HP - 10HP =35HP) and at that moment where Guardian shield comes into the Game they make -33% damage. seriously 4 Damage vs Protoss units without armor is a joke, they just regenerate the lost shield after 10 sec without beeing under fire.
2) most of the times you dont see early medivacs because they are way to expensive and need FAX + PORT which is a long tech compared to sc1 with only need of ACADMEY (which was needed anyway for range/stim upgrade) for Medics.
3) Medivacs heal imo way slower than Medics + they are expensive + Marauders eat up so much mana + they are really stupid compared to sc1 medics.
4) no you dont want to get marines for immortals you want to get ghosts and as a result you get some rounds of marines to save gas for ghosts. seriously you dont want to get marines they make nearly no damage and get destroyed by nearly everything. the shield upgrade makes it a bit better so they can take 1 hit more by stalkers.
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5) with observers you are able to shift Feedback Ghosts with 2 HTs before you attack and if you put some of your HTs into warpprism you can storm the shit out of the terran even if you didnt feedbacked all ghosts with the first 2 HTs
6) on most of the Maps you have cliffs in the middle which makes feedback + storm so much easier.
sure without putting an observer over the opponent army and without knowing where the army is and without HTs in warpprism and without abusing the maps for the own favor and without knowing that you will win the fight but still going for the attack from a bad postion and without a little bit of micro you will lose against any decent player. imo thats something that should be the way it is.
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On April 06 2010 02:22 MeProU_Kor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 01:48 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 06 2010 01:25 MeProU_Kor wrote:On April 06 2010 00:54 Dx Fx wrote:On April 06 2010 00:25 MeProU_Kor wrote:On April 05 2010 21:15 Dx Fx wrote:
I serious don't understand the behavior of people.
"We want to make Tanks better vs P".
It's an pretty nice argument, but in the same you refuse to change the diversity... You want to nerf P as exchange for T, claiming this would be necessary to balance the game. Actually it's an simple excuse to keep 1 Unit massed as core and don't be forced like P to have tons of different units at once.
P's HT are nerfed because they were to "powerful" vs the M&M ball, actually just vs Marines. Toss is being pushed to go Robo, because it's simple better to do it right now. Now there is a claim to nerf Toss Robo, so T can go easy mode and without any effort of diversity to Tanks, because if immortals are not a threat anymore there is no need to build counter measures vs them and you can simple go mass.
In the end nothing would change expect the fact that the core unit for T would change. what race do you play? Protoss is harder than Terran in the first 4? minutes of the game, after that Protoss can go "easy mode" and use the HTs/Colossus aka "i win button". People need some Brain... seriously if i can win with Stalkers+Blink only against mass Marauders why cant other? Yes yu need more than A-Move and yes you need to micro every stalker but thats what all were missing in sc2. I really have the feeling that most Protoss are used to their "i am Protoss i build just Zealots and Goons and A-Move and if the Terran isnt 2*Times better i should win easy" mentally from sc1. Now times have changed and this is sc2 and now Protoss needs to micro more and to give away mapcontroll first. live with it or go back and play sc1. On April 05 2010 22:43 Dx Fx wrote:On April 05 2010 22:37 lew wrote:
But what unit do we have to make as a terran? We really got nothing... Another prove that T compares all other T units with Marauder and comes to the result that they are not that cost effective as Marauders, so keep building them instead of unit mix. it has nothing to do with cost effective, its just that everything else gets HARDcountered (way cheaper) by Protoss. - Marines countered by Stalker or HTs or Colossus or any other unit with Guardian Shield - Hellions countered by any ranged Unit - Banshees countered by Any AtA Unit - Thor countered by Immortal - Tank countered by Immortal - Viking countered by Stalker - Ghost countered by Feedback (one HT can Feedback 4 Ghosts rofl) - Reaper countred by everything except slow Zeals Simple lol.... especially the HARD-counter part... yes its lol because a stalker needs 4 hits to kill a marine + has more range yes its lol because a HT can kill ~20 rines with 1 Storm yes its lol because a 50/150 HT can Feeback 4*150/150 Ghosts yes its lol because a Immortal can kill (put any ridiculous number here) tanks. seriously its getting ridiculous that all this C&C guys hijack every balance threads and want to nerf every other that isnt available for thei own race. first of all right now every one sucks in this game and in 2 weeks whole matchups can completly change just by finding a good timingpush or a way to get a faster expansion etc. yesterday i played wit a firend who made some nice/interesting build that i never saw on ladder and its very simple and very effective. this alone told me that balance discussions at this stage are just stupid, because 80% of the beta user blow totally and the other 20% (Platinum) just explored like 10% of the game. Do you even have beta? Stalkers do 10 damage to marines and marines have 45 hp. Hence it takes 5 hits to kill a marine, not 4. Wtih proper micro stalkers can kill marines, yes, but only before stim comes into play. 1 Storm can kill 99999999 marines if the Terran is stupid enough to leave all his marines in the duration of the storm. If the Terran has basic micro skills 1 Storm won't kill jack shit. The only time a HT will Feedback 4 Ghost is when they have full energy. If they have full energy the Terran is doing something wrong by never harassing Protoss and letting their HTs get up to full energy. That takes quite a while buddy. Also, 4 Ghost v 1 HT and you can't get off one EMP? Really now? Immortals can kill a large number of tanks but if you're trying to attack Immortals with tanks you deserve to lose. Don't get tanks when they get Immortals. Get marines. They're cheaper and with stim they eat through Immortals like they aren't even there. yes i have the beta and atm i am platinum place 7 with 1450-1500 points. I played like 80% of my games with P and 10% T and 10% Z. 1) marines without Stim suck anyway thats why i said 4 hits since marines are nearly useless without it (45HP - 10HP =35HP) and at that moment where Guardian shield comes into the Game they make -33% damage. seriously 4 Damage vs Protoss units without armor is a joke, they just regenerate the lost shield after 10 sec without beeing under fire. 2) most of the times you dont see early medivacs because they are way to expensive and need FAX + PORT which is a long tech compared to sc1 with only need of ACADMEY (which was needed anyway for range/stim upgrade) for Medics. 3) Medivacs heal imo way slower than Medics + they are expensive + Marauders eat up so much mana + they are really stupid compared to sc1 medics. 4) no you dont want to get marines for immortals you want to get ghosts and as a result you get some rounds of marines to save gas for ghosts. seriously you dont want to get marines they make nearly no damage and get destroyed by nearly everything. the shield upgrade makes it a bit better so they can take 1 hit more by stalkers. edit 5) with observers you are able to shift Feedback Ghosts with 2 HTs before you attack and if you put some of your HTs into warpprism you can storm the shit out of the terran even if you didnt feedbacked all ghosts with the first 2 HTs 6) on most of the Maps you have cliffs in the middle which makes feedback + storm so much easier. sure without putting an observer over the opponent army and without knowing where the army is and without HTs in warpprism and without abusing the maps for the own favor and without knowing that you will win the fight but still going for the attack from a bad postion and without a little bit of micro you will lose against any decent player. imo thats something that should be the way it is.
That's beautiful. But that's also assuming your opponent is in some sort of vegetative state. Scan can reveal Observers, so can EMP. As a Protoss, you NEED vision advantage over the Terran to burn Ghosts with Feedback, otherwise you won't have time to click on them before the AoE strikes and destroys all your army's shields.
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On April 05 2010 15:49 LunarC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 15:47 hacpee wrote:
Marauders need to die in one storm if they are stimmed.IIRC, they can stim and get stormed and STILL survive. No, I think they should be able to survive at least one storm. What they should NOT do, however, is kill a Nexus in 3 volleys in a group of 20 or so.
i think almost any unit can kill a nexus with that many with that many vollys ....
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On April 05 2010 16:21 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 15:53 tofucake wrote:
I haven't read the entire thread yet, but what about Marauders only slowing when they hit life points (ie: not Protoss' shields). That would let Zealots get in closer to have a chance at doing some actual damage. And with charge they would be able to catch up when Marauders are micro'd away. Plus a buff to mech, like everyone said (and/or nerf to Immortal). Obviously this doesn't affect TvZ, but Roaches are too good ATM for Marauders to get a vZ nerf. This is actually a pretty interesting idea.
its ok but easyer way agian would just be zealots and zerglings immune to slow. Cause you could still kite and kill big groups of zealots with that nerf. Zealots and zerglings need to be the counter all the time not half the time
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On April 05 2010 18:02 Kylig wrote:
So zealots hard counters marines early and focuses the T to wall in and bunker if P go fast zealots and that so fine right?
But then T gets a unit that counters zealots and thats ju so overpowered because the P just cant mass 1-2 units and win anylonger... allow me to laugh out LOUD :D
The FACT is P has HARD counters for every single T unit there is!
Colossi>all T bio
Immortal>all T mech
Stalkers/void rays>all T air
So basicly the only choice for a T to win against an equaly skilled P opponent is to go fast marauders and hope then P player is retarded enough not to use any sentrys,'
Sure I think its wrong but the sollution isnt to nerf the marauder, its not actually nerf protoss overall!
Nerf the living shit out of immortals! Remove shield or remove bonus dmg, either you get a durable unit against T mech or the other way you get a glass cannon that can rape all T mech if microed.
Then nerf the colossi to the ground, then we can nerf the marauders because now T can actually use marines and tanks.
T is allwasy forced to wall in at the starts thats what we do. But as soon as you get marauders toss them infront of the rines and watch the zealots get raped as they try and get thro the meat the marauders as the rines that do more dmg to the zealots kill them from the back.
Also T has counter to all of P late game just like P has counter to all T's late game its all on how you manges them and the ratio you get. Also the spells you get off from your casters. Think late game is really good right now for TvP maybe a bit harder for T but think its all good.
Just need to fix the early game omg cheese marauder rape.
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On April 05 2010 19:09 Paladia wrote:
Any reason why the Marauder easily beats Stalkers in 1v1 (and even more so in bigger fights) when they cost like half of what the Stalker does, yet they can be healed, stimmed, not EMPed and has a passive slow attack?
Don't come with something like "Stalker can attack air so its balanced" since there is never anything the Marauder would ever even want to attack in air in TvP, as the Protoss air is extremely lackluster. So even if they could attack air as well there would be no difference for the balance of the match-up.
As Stalker, Roach and Marauder are way too similar in design I would suggest making the Marauder melee (with some altered stats), that would balance it and make the tier 1.5 more unique.
Marauders are the counter to stalkers .... it has been said so by blizzard deal with it ?
Also blink harsment by stalkers is crazy and has sooo much potential. You can blink anywhere on map you have a obs.
melee unit i don't even know what to say to that LOL
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EPT
