On April 06 2010 04:31 xnub wrote: #2 removeing it would make the unit very boreing and would need to add in somthing else for it to do. Removing the slow effect from Zealots and zerglings only don't have to add a new ability to balance not a boreing unit and they still can slow lots of units to be usefull.
I am leaning on the first choice. But anyway, I think restricting the slow to being only applicable to armored units wouldn't make a lot of sense. Why the fuck would you need to slow them?
The hard counter system is part of SC2 got to deal with it they aren't changing it now
adn it would not be restricting the slow to just armored targets still hits Hellions, reapers, marines, ghost, Sentrys , HT, DT , Hydras, Drones/svc/ probes. you get the point.
Also the point of still haveing the slow is what it should have been very good for stopping fast moveing harsment units. ( Hellions, reapers ) Good at getting extra kills from retreating enemys a few extra stalkers hydras w/e. Good vs slowing a HT or ghost that gets caught by a scan and trys to run out of it. Also at slowing running probs from drops or attacks.
On April 06 2010 04:43 xnub wrote: The hard counter system is part of SC2 got to deal with it they aren't changing it now
I guess you are completely happy playing with your Rock/Paper/Scissors game with better graphics and automatchmaking.
On April 06 2010 04:43 xnub wrote: adn it would not be restricting the slow to just armored targets still hits Hellions, reapers, marines, ghost, Sentrys , HT, DT , Hydras, Drones/svc/ probes. you get the point.
This is a very uncreative solution IMO. Are you saying that the devs would need to break fundamental SC2 rules just to make a special exemption for the Marauder? They need to be formal about restrictions. I mean, why would it be able to slow a Reaper which is biological & light but not possible for a Zealot which has similar traits???
On April 06 2010 04:43 xnub wrote: Also the point of still haveing the slow is what it should have been very good for stopping fast moveing harsment units. ( Hellions, reapers ) Good at getting extra kills from retreating enemys a few extra stalkers hydras w/e. Good vs slowing a HT or ghost that gets caught by a scan and trys to run out of it. Also at slowing running probs from drops or attacks.
Many things slow would still be good for
This is the problem of the Marauder. It is good for many things.
On April 05 2010 21:15 Dx Fx wrote: I serious don't understand the behavior of people.
"We want to make Tanks better vs P". It's an pretty nice argument, but in the same you refuse to change the diversity... You want to nerf P as exchange for T, claiming this would be necessary to balance the game. Actually it's an simple excuse to keep 1 Unit massed as core and don't be forced like P to have tons of different units at once.
P's HT are nerfed because they were to "powerful" vs the M&M ball, actually just vs Marines. Toss is being pushed to go Robo, because it's simple better to do it right now. Now there is a claim to nerf Toss Robo, so T can go easy mode and without any effort of diversity to Tanks, because if immortals are not a threat anymore there is no need to build counter measures vs them and you can simple go mass.
In the end nothing would change expect the fact that the core unit for T would change.
what race do you play? Protoss is harder than Terran in the first 4? minutes of the game, after that Protoss can go "easy mode" and use the HTs/Colossus aka "i win button". People need some Brain... seriously if i can win with Stalkers+Blink only against mass Marauders why cant other? Yes yu need more than A-Move and yes you need to micro every stalker but thats what all were missing in sc2. I really have the feeling that most Protoss are used to their "i am Protoss i build just Zealots and Goons and A-Move and if the Terran isnt 2*Times better i should win easy" mentally from sc1. Now times have changed and this is sc2 and now Protoss needs to micro more and to give away mapcontroll first. live with it or go back and play sc1.
On April 05 2010 22:43 Dx Fx wrote:
On April 05 2010 22:37 lew wrote: But what unit do we have to make as a terran? We really got nothing...
Another prove that T compares all other T units with Marauder and comes to the result that they are not that cost effective as Marauders, so keep building them instead of unit mix.
it has nothing to do with cost effective, its just that everything else gets HARDcountered (way cheaper) by Protoss. - Marines countered by Stalker or HTs or Colossus or any other unit with Guardian Shield - Hellions countered by any ranged Unit - Banshees countered by Any AtA Unit - Thor countered by Immortal - Tank countered by Immortal - Viking countered by Stalker - Ghost countered by Feedback (one HT can Feedback 4 Ghosts rofl) - Reaper countred by everything except slow Zeals
Simple lol.... especially the HARD-counter part...
yes its lol because a stalker needs 4 hits to kill a marine + has more range yes its lol because a HT can kill ~20 rines with 1 Storm yes its lol because a 50/150 HT can Feeback 4*150/150 Ghosts yes its lol because a Immortal can kill (put any ridiculous number here) tanks.
seriously its getting ridiculous that all this C&C guys hijack every balance threads and want to nerf every other that isnt available for thei own race. first of all right now every one sucks in this game and in 2 weeks whole matchups can completly change just by finding a good timingpush or a way to get a faster expansion etc.
yesterday i played wit a firend who made some nice/interesting build that i never saw on ladder and its very simple and very effective. this alone told me that balance discussions at this stage are just stupid, because 80% of the beta user blow totally and the other 20% (Platinum) just explored like 10% of the game.
Do you even have beta?
Stalkers do 10 damage to marines and marines have 45 hp. Hence it takes 5 hits to kill a marine, not 4. Wtih proper micro stalkers can kill marines, yes, but only before stim comes into play.
1 Storm can kill 99999999 marines if the Terran is stupid enough to leave all his marines in the duration of the storm. If the Terran has basic micro skills 1 Storm won't kill jack shit.
The only time a HT will Feedback 4 Ghost is when they have full energy. If they have full energy the Terran is doing something wrong by never harassing Protoss and letting their HTs get up to full energy. That takes quite a while buddy. Also, 4 Ghost v 1 HT and you can't get off one EMP? Really now?
Immortals can kill a large number of tanks but if you're trying to attack Immortals with tanks you deserve to lose. Don't get tanks when they get Immortals. Get marines. They're cheaper and with stim they eat through Immortals like they aren't even there.
yes i have the beta and atm i am platinum place 7 with 1450-1500 points. I played like 80% of my games with P and 10% T and 10% Z. 1) marines without Stim suck anyway thats why i said 4 hits since marines are nearly useless without it (45HP - 10HP =35HP) and at that moment where Guardian shield comes into the Game they make -33% damage. seriously 4 Damage vs Protoss units without armor is a joke, they just regenerate the lost shield after 10 sec without beeing under fire. 2) most of the times you dont see early medivacs because they are way to expensive and need FAX + PORT which is a long tech compared to sc1 with only need of ACADMEY (which was needed anyway for range/stim upgrade) for Medics. 3) Medivacs heal imo way slower than Medics + they are expensive + Marauders eat up so much mana + they are really stupid compared to sc1 medics. 4) no you dont want to get marines for immortals you want to get ghosts and as a result you get some rounds of marines to save gas for ghosts. seriously you dont want to get marines they make nearly no damage and get destroyed by nearly everything. the shield upgrade makes it a bit better so they can take 1 hit more by stalkers.
edit 5) with observers you are able to shift Feedback Ghosts with 2 HTs before you attack and if you put some of your HTs into warpprism you can storm the shit out of the terran even if you didnt feedbacked all ghosts with the first 2 HTs 6) on most of the Maps you have cliffs in the middle which makes feedback + storm so much easier.
sure without putting an observer over the opponent army and without knowing where the army is and without HTs in warpprism and without abusing the maps for the own favor and without knowing that you will win the fight but still going for the attack from a bad postion and without a little bit of micro you will lose against any decent player. imo thats something that should be the way it is.
I see your point about marines v. stalkers. I'm convinced. And yes, you want to make ghost v. immortals. I just pointed out that you could make marines in that marines > tanks when it comes to killing, or at least getting rid of Immortal shields. But yes, ghost are most ideal against Immortals.
Your 5th and 6th points are valid, but you're conveniently forgetting that Terran can scan. Your logic is based on the assumption that Protoss has good vision of enemy troop movements with obs, but for some reason Terran isn't getting vision of Protoss troop movements with scan. If Terran can sneak out just 1 or 2 cloaked ghost out of obs vision, which I'd imagine wouldn't be overly difficult or at the very least not impossible...an easy EMP will waste HTs. Also, you said "without abusing the maps for their own favor." So what? Protoss can do that and Terran can't? If anything Terran is better at abusing maps due to their superior range and scan.
And yes, you can put HTs into warpprisms to dodge EMPs that way, but that still doesn't address the fact that storm, especially after the AoE nerf, won't kill anything, and will only do like 10 damage to maybe 6-7 units, if the Terran can micro properly. Actually, I wouldn't even consider that micro. All they have to do is move their units out of the storm, which anyone can do.
And please don't make the argument that Protoss can just blanket the battlefield with storm. It's very rare that Protoss will have more than 3-4, maybe 5-6 HTs with their army due to their high gas cost. The AoE nerf pretty much makes 1 storm cover next to nothing.
On April 05 2010 19:09 Paladia wrote: Any reason why the Marauder easily beats Stalkers in 1v1 (and even more so in bigger fights) when they cost like half of what the Stalker does, yet they can be healed, stimmed, not EMPed and has a passive slow attack?
Don't come with something like "Stalker can attack air so its balanced" since there is never anything the Marauder would ever even want to attack in air in TvP, as the Protoss air is extremely lackluster. So even if they could attack air as well there would be no difference for the balance of the match-up.
As Stalker, Roach and Marauder are way too similar in design I would suggest making the Marauder melee (with some altered stats), that would balance it and make the tier 1.5 more unique.
Marauders are the counter to stalkers .... it has been said so by blizzard deal with it ?
Also blink harsment by stalkers is crazy and has sooo much potential. You can blink anywhere on map you have a obs.
melee unit i don't even know what to say to that LOL
Yeah, and Blizzard also said Marauders are suppose to be weak against Zealots. But sure, if they make Zealots strong against Marauders (like they are suppose to) I'm fine with them being strong against Stalkers. Right now 5 Zealots won't even damage a couple of Marauders. 5 Marauders even beat 5 Ultralisk, which their slow doesn't even work against and costs 5 times as much.
Cause right now they are extremely strong against both zealots and stalkers, which is just wrong.
5 marauders can't beat 5 ultras nicce try tho adn agian my top post fix the zealot problem. (page 22 top)
Huh? What game are you playing? 5 Marauders beats 5 Ultras with standard micro, just check (which was linked previously in this thread) amongst others.
On April 06 2010 04:43 xnub wrote: adn it would not be restricting the slow to just armored targets still hits Hellions, reapers, marines, ghost, Sentrys , HT, DT , Hydras, Drones/svc/ probes. you get the point.
This is a very uncreative solution IMO. Are you saying that the devs would need to break fundamental SC2 rules just to make a special exemption for the Marauder? They need to be formal about restrictions. I mean, why would it be able to slow a Reaper which is biological & light but not possible for a Zealot which has similar traits???
On April 06 2010 04:43 xnub wrote: Also the point of still haveing the slow is what it should have been very good for stopping fast moveing harsment units. ( Hellions, reapers ) Good at getting extra kills from retreating enemys a few extra stalkers hydras w/e. Good vs slowing a HT or ghost that gets caught by a scan and trys to run out of it. Also at slowing running probs from drops or attacks.
Many things slow would still be good for
This is the problem of the Marauder. It is good for many things.
Deal with it or don't play SC2 ?
Why doesn't the rocket from a marauder blow apart a none armored target and do more dmg then when it hits a armored target ? Lore does not fit well with rts's when it comes to balance don't try and toss it in cause it never works. Also it is the easyest solution without effecting almost anything else mid/late game. They have also made exemptions before Drones/cloans/Broodlings on creep don't get the speed upgrade.
also many other units specials are good at muilty things. Does not mean they are op.
On April 06 2010 05:02 xnub wrote: Deal with it or don't play SC2 ?
You do realize that I can still voice an opinion that at least one developer might consider implementing. It is still in beta stages after all -_-
On April 06 2010 05:02 xnub wrote: Why doesn't the rocket from a marauder blow apart a none armored target and do more dmg then when it hits a armored target ? Lore does not fit well with rts's when it comes to balance don't try and toss it in cause it never works.
Read again. I am not talking about lore. I'll be reposting my argument here to save you the trouble of reading my previous post: Why would an ability, lets say the Marauder's slow, take effect on a Reaper but not on a Zealot when both are clearly defined as Light & Biological? If you fail to see my point, I call troll.
On April 06 2010 05:02 xnub wrote: Also it is the easyest solution without effecting almost anything else mid/late game. They have also made exemptions before Drones/cloans/Broodlings on creep don't get the speed upgrade.
Movement speed on creep is a whole different kind of thing. Each unit can possess different movement speeds anyway.
On April 05 2010 19:09 Paladia wrote: Any reason why the Marauder easily beats Stalkers in 1v1 (and even more so in bigger fights) when they cost like half of what the Stalker does, yet they can be healed, stimmed, not EMPed and has a passive slow attack?
Don't come with something like "Stalker can attack air so its balanced" since there is never anything the Marauder would ever even want to attack in air in TvP, as the Protoss air is extremely lackluster. So even if they could attack air as well there would be no difference for the balance of the match-up.
As Stalker, Roach and Marauder are way too similar in design I would suggest making the Marauder melee (with some altered stats), that would balance it and make the tier 1.5 more unique.
Marauders are the counter to stalkers .... it has been said so by blizzard deal with it ?
Also blink harsment by stalkers is crazy and has sooo much potential. You can blink anywhere on map you have a obs.
melee unit i don't even know what to say to that LOL
Yeah, and Blizzard also said Marauders are suppose to be weak against Zealots. But sure, if they make Zealots strong against Marauders (like they are suppose to) I'm fine with them being strong against Stalkers. Right now 5 Zealots won't even damage a couple of Marauders. 5 Marauders even beat 5 Ultralisk, which their slow doesn't even work against and costs 5 times as much.
Cause right now they are extremely strong against both zealots and stalkers, which is just wrong.
5 marauders can't beat 5 ultras nicce try tho adn agian my top post fix the zealot problem. (page 22 top)
Huh? What game are you playing? 5 Marauders beats 5 Ultras with standard micro, just check http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI (which was linked previously in this thread) amongst others.
so thats more then 5 marauders and some rines in there WITH medvacs. With renforcments coming in from his base for the lost ones. Also the zerg was a noob and feel for the same shit over and over. Im going to micro 1 unit in as a scarfice over and over the zerg reasponse by falling for it and getting all the ultras to attack it.
Not to mention if this is so late in the game were is his backup for the ultras ? terran has army mix of MMM. Zerg just sending in ultras that are countered by maruders were are the hydras/speedlings to back them up ? Ultra is the meat shield when the hydras and lings do the work.
On April 06 2010 05:02 xnub wrote: Why doesn't the rocket from a marauder blow apart a none armored target and do more dmg then when it hits a armored target ? Lore does not fit well with rts's when it comes to balance don't try and toss it in cause it never works.
Read again. I am not talking about lore. I'll be reposting my argument here to save you the trouble of reading my previous post: Why would an ability, lets say the Marauder's slow, take effect on a Reaper but not on a Zealot when both are clearly defined as Light & Biological? If you fail to see my point, I call troll.
On April 06 2010 05:02 xnub wrote: Also it is the easyest solution without effecting almost anything else mid/late game. They have also made exemptions before Drones/cloans/Broodlings on creep don't get the speed upgrade.
Movement speed on creep is a whole different kind of thing. Each unit can possess different movement speeds anyway.
very much doubt it when changeing it would Require a huge rework and a fresh restart of the beta. Not to mention sc/bw hade hard counters as well
Again y would creep speed not effect ever zerg ground unit ? all units that are slowed can have different speeds to.
On April 05 2010 19:09 Paladia wrote: Any reason why the Marauder easily beats Stalkers in 1v1 (and even more so in bigger fights) when they cost like half of what the Stalker does, yet they can be healed, stimmed, not EMPed and has a passive slow attack?
Don't come with something like "Stalker can attack air so its balanced" since there is never anything the Marauder would ever even want to attack in air in TvP, as the Protoss air is extremely lackluster. So even if they could attack air as well there would be no difference for the balance of the match-up.
As Stalker, Roach and Marauder are way too similar in design I would suggest making the Marauder melee (with some altered stats), that would balance it and make the tier 1.5 more unique.
Marauders are the counter to stalkers .... it has been said so by blizzard deal with it ?
Also blink harsment by stalkers is crazy and has sooo much potential. You can blink anywhere on map you have a obs.
melee unit i don't even know what to say to that LOL
Yeah, and Blizzard also said Marauders are suppose to be weak against Zealots. But sure, if they make Zealots strong against Marauders (like they are suppose to) I'm fine with them being strong against Stalkers. Right now 5 Zealots won't even damage a couple of Marauders. 5 Marauders even beat 5 Ultralisk, which their slow doesn't even work against and costs 5 times as much.
Cause right now they are extremely strong against both zealots and stalkers, which is just wrong.
5 marauders can't beat 5 ultras nicce try tho adn agian my top post fix the zealot problem. (page 22 top)
Huh? What game are you playing? 5 Marauders beats 5 Ultras with standard micro, just check http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI (which was linked previously in this thread) amongst others.
so thats more then 5 marauders and some rines in there WITH medvacs. With renforcments coming in from his base for the lost ones. Also the zerg was a noob and feel for the same shit over and over. Im going to micro 1 unit in as a scarfice over and over the zerg reasponse by falling for it and getting all the ultras to attack it.
Not to mention if this is so late in the game were is his backup for the ultras ? terran has army mix of MMM. Zerg just sending in ultras that are countered by maruders were are the hydras/speedlings to back them up ? Ultra is the meat shield when the hydras and lings do the work.
You are a retard who should be banned from this site..... You honestly dont see whats wrong about 500/125 1.5 tier unit beating the highest unit in zergs tech tree which costs about 3000/2500 considering upgrades
On April 05 2010 15:53 tofucake wrote: I haven't read the entire thread yet, but what about Marauders only slowing when they hit life points (ie: not Protoss' shields). That would let Zealots get in closer to have a chance at doing some actual damage. And with charge they would be able to catch up when Marauders are micro'd away. Plus a buff to mech, like everyone said (and/or nerf to Immortal). Obviously this doesn't affect TvZ, but Roaches are too good ATM for Marauders to get a vZ nerf.
This is actually a pretty interesting idea.
its ok but easyer way agian would just be zealots and zerglings immune to slow. Cause you could still kite and kill big groups of zealots with that nerf. Zealots and zerglings need to be the counter all the time not half the time
I don't think you understand slow: it's caused by small shit (Zealots & Zerglings) being jacked up by the impact of the BIG FREAKIN MISSILEBULLETTHING. Shields would negate this. Zerglings don't have shields. If you say "make Zealots and Zerglings" immune what you want to say is "remove slow completely".
On April 05 2010 19:09 Paladia wrote: Any reason why the Marauder easily beats Stalkers in 1v1 (and even more so in bigger fights) when they cost like half of what the Stalker does, yet they can be healed, stimmed, not EMPed and has a passive slow attack?
Don't come with something like "Stalker can attack air so its balanced" since there is never anything the Marauder would ever even want to attack in air in TvP, as the Protoss air is extremely lackluster. So even if they could attack air as well there would be no difference for the balance of the match-up.
As Stalker, Roach and Marauder are way too similar in design I would suggest making the Marauder melee (with some altered stats), that would balance it and make the tier 1.5 more unique.
Marauders are the counter to stalkers .... it has been said so by blizzard deal with it ?
Also blink harsment by stalkers is crazy and has sooo much potential. You can blink anywhere on map you have a obs.
melee unit i don't even know what to say to that LOL
Yeah, and Blizzard also said Marauders are suppose to be weak against Zealots. But sure, if they make Zealots strong against Marauders (like they are suppose to) I'm fine with them being strong against Stalkers. Right now 5 Zealots won't even damage a couple of Marauders. 5 Marauders even beat 5 Ultralisk, which their slow doesn't even work against and costs 5 times as much.
Cause right now they are extremely strong against both zealots and stalkers, which is just wrong.
5 marauders can't beat 5 ultras nicce try tho adn agian my top post fix the zealot problem. (page 22 top)
Huh? What game are you playing? 5 Marauders beats 5 Ultras with standard micro, just check http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI (which was linked previously in this thread) amongst others.
so thats more then 5 marauders and some rines in there WITH medvacs. With renforcments coming in from his base for the lost ones. Also the zerg was a noob and feel for the same shit over and over. Im going to micro 1 unit in as a scarfice over and over the zerg reasponse by falling for it and getting all the ultras to attack it.
Not to mention if this is so late in the game were is his backup for the ultras ? terran has army mix of MMM. Zerg just sending in ultras that are countered by maruders were are the hydras/speedlings to back them up ? Ultra is the meat shield when the hydras and lings do the work.
You are a retard who should be banned from this site..... You honestly dont see whats wrong about 500/125 1.5 tier unit beating the highest unit in zergs tech tree which costs about 3000/2500 considering upgrades
There was more then 5 marauders there with 3 different types of units getting renforced by more MM for the ones they lose. If you see only 5 units get your eyes checked or think that sending in pure ultras to a fight is smart i would stop playing : )
Not to mention in BW they were the same as they are now for most part beside having the cleave. Made to take the first hits and be the meat and followed up by the units that do the dmg. Not to mention in BW there were units they could kite them all day.
I do feel like the unit has fallen on hard times due to the fact that roachs do the same thing for cheaper.
On April 05 2010 15:53 tofucake wrote: I haven't read the entire thread yet, but what about Marauders only slowing when they hit life points (ie: not Protoss' shields). That would let Zealots get in closer to have a chance at doing some actual damage. And with charge they would be able to catch up when Marauders are micro'd away. Plus a buff to mech, like everyone said (and/or nerf to Immortal). Obviously this doesn't affect TvZ, but Roaches are too good ATM for Marauders to get a vZ nerf.
This is actually a pretty interesting idea.
its ok but easyer way agian would just be zealots and zerglings immune to slow. Cause you could still kite and kill big groups of zealots with that nerf. Zealots and zerglings need to be the counter all the time not half the time
I don't think you understand slow: it's caused by small shit (Zealots & Zerglings) being jacked up by the impact of the BIG FREAKIN MISSILEBULLETTHING. Shields would negate this. Zerglings don't have shields. If you say "make Zealots and Zerglings" immune what you want to say is "remove slow completely".
read a few more of the post past there. If you remove the slow 100 % makes the unit boring and will prob have to toss in another ability they would need to balance around.
Also talking about lore in a rts balance does not work why does that BIG FREAKIN MISSILEBULLETTHING not do more dmg to the target with no armor. but instead it does more to the on with armor.
On April 05 2010 19:09 Paladia wrote: Any reason why the Marauder easily beats Stalkers in 1v1 (and even more so in bigger fights) when they cost like half of what the Stalker does, yet they can be healed, stimmed, not EMPed and has a passive slow attack?
Don't come with something like "Stalker can attack air so its balanced" since there is never anything the Marauder would ever even want to attack in air in TvP, as the Protoss air is extremely lackluster. So even if they could attack air as well there would be no difference for the balance of the match-up.
As Stalker, Roach and Marauder are way too similar in design I would suggest making the Marauder melee (with some altered stats), that would balance it and make the tier 1.5 more unique.
Marauders are the counter to stalkers .... it has been said so by blizzard deal with it ?
Also blink harsment by stalkers is crazy and has sooo much potential. You can blink anywhere on map you have a obs.
melee unit i don't even know what to say to that LOL
Yeah, and Blizzard also said Marauders are suppose to be weak against Zealots. But sure, if they make Zealots strong against Marauders (like they are suppose to) I'm fine with them being strong against Stalkers. Right now 5 Zealots won't even damage a couple of Marauders. 5 Marauders even beat 5 Ultralisk, which their slow doesn't even work against and costs 5 times as much.
Cause right now they are extremely strong against both zealots and stalkers, which is just wrong.
5 marauders can't beat 5 ultras nicce try tho adn agian my top post fix the zealot problem. (page 22 top)
Huh? What game are you playing? 5 Marauders beats 5 Ultras with standard micro, just check http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI (which was linked previously in this thread) amongst others.
so thats more then 5 marauders and some rines in there WITH medvacs. With renforcments coming in from his base for the lost ones. Also the zerg was a noob and feel for the same shit over and over. Im going to micro 1 unit in as a scarfice over and over the zerg reasponse by falling for it and getting all the ultras to attack it.
Not to mention if this is so late in the game were is his backup for the ultras ? terran has army mix of MMM. Zerg just sending in ultras that are countered by maruders were are the hydras/speedlings to back them up ? Ultra is the meat shield when the hydras and lings do the work.
You are a retard who should be banned from this site..... You honestly dont see whats wrong about 500/125 1.5 tier unit beating the highest unit in zergs tech tree which costs about 3000/2500 considering upgrades
There was more then 5 marauders there with 3 different types of units getting renforced by more MM for the ones they lose. If you see only 5 units get your eyes checked or think that sending in pure ultras to a fight is smart i would stop playing : )
Not to mention in BW they were the same as they are now for most part beside having the cleave. Made to take the first hits and be the meat and followed up by the units that do the dmg. Not to mention in BW there were units they could kite them all day.
I do feel like the unit has fallen on hard times due to the fact that roachs do the same thing for cheaper.
Obviously 5 Marauder vs. 5 Ultralisks would go to the Ultralisks. 5 Marauder + Medivac vs. 5 Ultralisks would be a close fight given proper micro. 5 Marauder + Medivac vs. 5 Ultralisks + Hydra would go to the Ultralisks. 5 Marauder + Medivac + Marines vs. 5 Ultralisks + Hydra would go to the Ultralisks.
And guess what? None of that matters because I could say that 5 Colossi would destroy 5 Marauders unless Marauders had medivacs and this whole thing would start again.
The problem is in the vicious circle between Marauders, Roaches, and Immortals/Colossi. I think those specialized Robotics Facility units are too massable for their strength and should have much longer build and tech times, especially considering Chrono Boost. In exchange, Marauders and Roaches have reduced health and attack.
Starcraft 2 Ultralisks have replaced Zerglings with their cleave attack and bonus damage to buildings. All they need is Hydralisk backup.
On April 05 2010 15:53 tofucake wrote: I haven't read the entire thread yet, but what about Marauders only slowing when they hit life points (ie: not Protoss' shields). That would let Zealots get in closer to have a chance at doing some actual damage. And with charge they would be able to catch up when Marauders are micro'd away. Plus a buff to mech, like everyone said (and/or nerf to Immortal). Obviously this doesn't affect TvZ, but Roaches are too good ATM for Marauders to get a vZ nerf.
This is actually a pretty interesting idea.
its ok but easyer way agian would just be zealots and zerglings immune to slow. Cause you could still kite and kill big groups of zealots with that nerf. Zealots and zerglings need to be the counter all the time not half the time
I don't think you understand slow: it's caused by small shit (Zealots & Zerglings) being jacked up by the impact of the BIG FREAKIN MISSILEBULLETTHING. Shields would negate this. Zerglings don't have shields. If you say "make Zealots and Zerglings" immune what you want to say is "remove slow completely".
read a few more of the post past there. If you remove the slow 100 % makes the unit boring and will prob have to toss in another ability they would need to balance around.
Also talking about lore in a rts balance does not work why does that BIG FREAKIN MISSILEBULLETTHING not do more dmg to the target with no armor. but instead it does more to the on with armor.
I think slow should not be taken from the Marauder. However, I think the Marauder itself should be changed to compensate for this ability
I will pay 5 dollars to rename this thread, 'abluu bluu bluu, marauders would own me if I had a beta key QQ". I wish there were at least 4 replays out of 24 pages, because over the weekend I saw a lot of replays, such as frozen-arbitor(jinro), who went 1 reaper -> gold expo -> 6-7 rax/techlab MASS RAUDER, AND LOST, 2 OUT OF 3 GAMES TO....a few immortals and gateway units. For real, please please please please please please please post replays because I don't believe. I play terran and don't really go rauders except to do jinro's reaper->FE->mass rauder, and I really only seem forced into them vs toss when I FE. If these QQRauders lose to immortals + gateway units, what's the problem? I would also post a replay but I don't have to prove my point, watch jinro or any high level TvP, Rauders are not as tough shit as everyone gives them credit for.
P.S. no offense to the OP, the thread obviously started out as 'a serious discussion..' but 24 pages later it is ... not
Like others, I think the Marauders is filling too many roles in T1 : - It's a counter to armored units. In T1, that's roaches and stalkers (and other marauders obviously). - It's a counter to melee units thanks to his slow. In T1, that's zerglings and zealots. Yup, the marauder counters pretty much everything you can throw at him in T1. Banelings may give him trouble; don't know, we don't see them in the current metagame.
Personnally, I would remove the slow. If you make it an upgrade, you give the opponent a chance to have air units or immortals by the time the upgrade is done. So, once the marauder doesn't counter zerglings and zealots, who can do the job ? Marines will die if they are in melee; getting them behind a wall or in a bunker will make them superior though. However that restricts the terran player terribly : he lets total control of the map to his opponent and can't expand without being obliterated.
The terran player would only be able to get out once he reaches factory tech; hellions counter zerglings and zealots thanks to their speed and bonus damage. However.. the reaper could do the job. Thanks to his speed and bonus damage vs light units (like the hellion), he doesn't need much to counter melee units : Only a reduction in building time (30s sounds good), and maybe giving him the stimpack upgrade (so that they have a chance against speedlings and charging zealots).
Well, I hope I didn't miss anything. This would make the reaper much more interesting; right now it's only being used for harassment. However, this may make marines in TvP and TvZ even more useless, since there would be no point in getting a reactor on barracks.
On April 06 2010 08:27 228zip wrote: Like others, I think the Marauders is filling too many roles in T1 : - It's a counter to armored units. In T1, that's roaches and stalkers (and other marauders obviously). - It's a counter to melee units thanks to his slow. In T1, that's zerglings and zealots. Yup, the marauder counters pretty much everything you can throw at him in T1. Banelings may give him trouble; don't know, we don't see them in the current metagame.
Personnally, I would remove the slow. If you make it an upgrade, you give the opponent a chance to have air units or immortals by the time the upgrade is done. So, once the marauder doesn't counter zerglings and zealots, who can do the job ? Marines will die if they are in melee; getting them behind a wall or in a bunker will make them superior though. However that restricts the terran player terribly : he lets total control of the map to his opponent and can't expand without being obliterated.
The terran player would only be able to get out once he reaches factory tech; hellions counter zerglings and zealots thanks to their speed and bonus damage. However.. the reaper could do the job. Thanks to his speed and bonus damage vs light units (like the hellion), he doesn't need much to counter melee units : Only a reduction in building time (30s sounds good), and maybe giving him the stimpack upgrade (so that they have a chance against speedlings and charging zealots).
Well, I hope I didn't miss anything. This would make the reaper much more interesting; right now it's only being used for harassment. However, this may make marines in TvP and TvZ even more useless, since there would be no point in getting a reactor on barracks.
Marines are a great counter to Zerglings and zealots not to mention hellions still rape there faces. Only diff is you would need to make a mix of MM and micro them so marauders would be in front and rines in back. Zealots and zerglings would counter the marauders if they were immune to slow but pair them with the other tier 1 and you are golden. Just need to make sure the meat shield is in front. Marauders are the wall thats why they have the HP : P
small group of MM will still do good for early aggresion. Just not omg its 5 marauders they take out your 6 zealots without loseing one or kite and kill half your zerglings till they get in melee range then kill off whats left.
reapers are fine the way they are no buff or nerf needed good for early harsment/attacks and good mid/late for kill expos and keeping the enemy on his toes and scouting. Also reapers hade stim in alpha the dmg was really way to insane lol. little duel pistols going off like machine guns was cool looking tho : P
Really just slow can't effect melee units problem solve or just zerglings/zealots
Obviously 5 Marauder vs. 5 Ultralisks would go to the Ultralisks. 5 Marauder + Medivac vs. 5 Ultralisks would be a close fight given proper micro. 5 Marauder + Medivac vs. 5 Ultralisks + Hydra would go to the Ultralisks. 5 Marauder + Medivac + Marines vs. 5 Ultralisks + Hydra would go to the Ultralisks.
And guess what? None of that matters because I could say that 5 Colossi would destroy 5 Marauders unless Marauders had medivacs and this whole thing would start again.
I'm still very confused as to why Marauder NEED a slow effect? What specific match up does this matter in?
I'd like to see reasonable comments. Not I need it cuz my unitz are teh suck. Or cuz I need it cuz I like PWNING NOOBS! If the issue is that your other units are bad, ask for a buff to them,
TvP VS Zealots? Make more Marines? Vs Stalkers? Marauders cost less and deal more damage to stalker than stalkers deal them? Vs Robo units? I rarely care or fine slow even makes much of a difference vs Robo units. Colossi have super range and Immortals deal sick damage to Marauders.
TvZ Vs Zergling? Make some Marines, Marines eat Lings for breakfast Vs Banelings? Why would Zerg build banelings to counter Mass Marauders? Marauders are not light. Vs Hydras? You shouldn't be making Marauders to beat hydras, Siege tanks are far superior. Vs Ultralisks? You can't even slow them, so makes no difference.
All Matchups Vs T2 Armor? You already have favourable 100% Damage bonus vs Armor do you rly need a slow?
On April 05 2010 15:53 tofucake wrote: I haven't read the entire thread yet, but what about Marauders only slowing when they hit life points (ie: not Protoss' shields). That would let Zealots get in closer to have a chance at doing some actual damage. And with charge they would be able to catch up when Marauders are micro'd away. Plus a buff to mech, like everyone said (and/or nerf to Immortal). Obviously this doesn't affect TvZ, but Roaches are too good ATM for Marauders to get a vZ nerf.
This is actually a pretty interesting idea.
its ok but easyer way agian would just be zealots and zerglings immune to slow. Cause you could still kite and kill big groups of zealots with that nerf. Zealots and zerglings need to be the counter all the time not half the time
I don't think you understand slow: it's caused by small shit (Zealots & Zerglings) being jacked up by the impact of the BIG FREAKIN MISSILEBULLETTHING. Shields would negate this. Zerglings don't have shields. If you say "make Zealots and Zerglings" immune what you want to say is "remove slow completely".
read a few more of the post past there. If you remove the slow 100 % makes the unit boring and will prob have to toss in another ability they would need to balance around.
Also talking about lore in a rts balance does not work why does that BIG FREAKIN MISSILEBULLETTHING not do more dmg to the target with no armor. but instead it does more to the on with armor.
The slow is caused by the force of impact. That force is spread over armor causing more damage (microfractures ftw) instead of slowing. Satisfied?
EPT
