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If my previous suggestions have fallen on deaf ears here is what I posted with regard to nerfing the 3 issue units. Since many are opposed to slow removal or nerfs, I avoided them this time.
Immortal to 20+20 from 20+30. Makes terran mech more viable.
Marauder to 100 HP and 8+12 from 125 HP and 10+10. The change in damage makes light units more viable vs Marauders. The Change in HP is with respect to balancing it vs the Roach and Immortal nerfs.
Roach to 115 HP from 145 HP. Possibly a supply change (i dunno if it's needed). The HP is just to keep Roaches on par with Immortals and Marauders. Also makes roaches slightly less overpowered vs zerglings, zealots and other low tier units.
THE MATH see thread: The Roach is what is wrong with SC2. It's a thread on the issues that come from the Terirble 3, the Unholy Trinity, or w/e you call them.
Essentially:
The nerfed Immortal kills the nerfed Marauder and roach just as fast as before.
The nerfed Marauder and Roach each kill each other 1.25 as fast, so it's balanced between themselves.
Possible side effect include making AoE more effective vs Roach and Marauders, as well as making T1 units slightly better vs them. Still all T1 units are defeated by equal cost in roaches, so Roaches > T1 units.
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On April 06 2010 21:26 jeppew wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 21:10 suejak wrote:On April 06 2010 21:04 Plexa wrote:On April 06 2010 21:02 suejak wrote:
Why doesn't storm slaughter mass marauders? Size of storm radius, health of Marauder, Medivacs Oh, ok. If storm doesn't slaughter marauders, then that's the problem imo. EDIT: counter medivacs with phoenix, use storm to weaken marauders, then blitz with zealots... That doesn't work? stimmed rauders can kite speedlots quite well except for the first charge, the one thing zeals are good at against marauders is taking hits really, unless he's in some situation were he can't run away.
What if you stormed the rauders first, though, then charged?
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With stim and Medivacs they Marauders take barely any damage from storms. Stim and move back = GG Storm. You'd have to move in with Sentrys, Forcefield to keep them there, Storm to injure them, then clean up with Zealots - an impossible feat vs Ghosts or just in damn hard in general.
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Why can't you throw some phoenix in to take out the medivacs?
You attack with templar+zealots+phoenix. All they have are medivacs and marauders.
If that doesn't work, they need to change it so that works.
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On April 06 2010 21:27 suejak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 21:26 jeppew wrote:On April 06 2010 21:10 suejak wrote:On April 06 2010 21:04 Plexa wrote:On April 06 2010 21:02 suejak wrote:
Why doesn't storm slaughter mass marauders? Size of storm radius, health of Marauder, Medivacs Oh, ok. If storm doesn't slaughter marauders, then that's the problem imo. EDIT: counter medivacs with phoenix, use storm to weaken marauders, then blitz with zealots... That doesn't work? stimmed rauders can kite speedlots quite well except for the first charge, the one thing zeals are good at against marauders is taking hits really, unless he's in some situation were he can't run away. What if you stormed the rauders first, though, then charged?
unless the storms practiaclly kill him, which they don't, then he would just continue kiting. Zealots do not beat marauders unless the marauders are standing still.
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The medivacs are icing on the cake. Building a stargate and the Phoenixs is pretty much a waste vs Medivacs. No one is complaining about medivacs, they are complaining about Marauders.
unless the storms practiaclly kill him, which they don't, then he would just continue kiting. Zealots do not beat marauders unless the marauders are standing still.
Correct. Charge means your zealots go from hitting ZERO times to Hitting ONCE b4 being kited, and charge unlike slow has CD preventing it from being used immediately once the Marauders move back.
Why can't you throw some phoenix in to take out the medivacs?
You attack with templar+zealots+phoenix. All they have are medivacs and marauders.
If that doesn't work, they need to change it so that works.
Why not make Void rays, u can kill Medivacs and all the Marauders with 1 VOID RAY. ZOMG!! PROBLEM SOLVED!
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Why is building phoenixes a waste if it takes out the medivacs?
Then you can just storm the marauders, who (esp. if they stim) will be very low hp...
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On April 06 2010 21:39 suejak wrote:
Why is building phoenixes a waste if it takes out the medivacs?
Then you can just storm the marauders, who (esp. if they stim) will be very low hp...
he gets a few marines, and shoots down your very expensive anti-medivac investment.
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Marauders stimming = 125 HP to 105 HP. They will take maybe 10 damage from the storm, 20 if the micro is bad.
Spending all those resources to kill the Medivacs will not beat the army on the ground. Next you'll suggest I graviton beam the Marauders 1 by one.
Spending 150/100 per Phoenix while my ground gets raped is not an effective use of resources, especially since Phoenixes can be countered easily by marines.
Like I said, what will prevent him from decimating my ground army? My Phoenix harass on his Medivacs?
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On April 06 2010 21:42 jeppew wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 21:39 suejak wrote:
Why is building phoenixes a waste if it takes out the medivacs?
Then you can just storm the marauders, who (esp. if they stim) will be very low hp... he gets a few marines, and shoots down your very expensive anti-medivac investment.
lol, then it sounds like we've got a pretty complicated unit mix going on. Sounds like a game I'd want to play. :D
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On April 06 2010 21:43 Daerthalus wrote:
Marauders stimming = 125 HP to 105 HP. They will take maybe 10 damage from the storm, 20 if the micro is bad.
Spending all those resources to kill the Medivacs will not beat the army on the ground. Next you'll suggest I graviton beam the Marauders 1 by one.
Spending 150/100 per Phoenix while my ground gets raped is not an effective use of resources, especially since Phoenixes can be countered easily by marines.
Like I said, what will prevent him from decimating my ground army? My Phoenix harass on his Medivacs?
Well, this ain't rock-paper-scissors, it's a game.
One storm is one storm from one templar. You would presumably need more than one storm if he's got a lot of marauders.
Scratch zealots -- immortals can then go toe-to-toe with the no-medivac marauders.
Marauders cannot attack air. Your phoenix is necessary to take out the medivacs. If he has marines, then he has a pretty solid, diverse army.
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On April 06 2010 20:09 MorroW wrote:
why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine?
terran already has a shitload of techbuildings, they spend so much time on tech i think its enough man
Not true.
Understood as buildings you need to unlock further upgrades or units...
Terran tech buildings:
+ Show Spoiler +- Barracks
- Engineering Bay
- Factory
- Ghost Academy
- Armory
- Starport
- Fusion Core
- Tech Lab
Protoss tech buildings:
+ Show Spoiler +- Gateway
- Forge
- Cybernetics Core
- Twilight Council
- Robotics Facility
- Stargate
- Templar Archives
- Dark Shrine
- Robotics Bay
- Fleet Beacon
Zerg tech buildings:
+ Show Spoiler +- Spawning Pool
- Evolution Chamber
- Roach Warren
- Lair
- Hydralisk Den
- Baneling Nest
- Infestation Pit
- Spire
- Hive
- Ultralisk Cavern
- Greater Spire
Now, you might say that, Protoss doesn't need to get Stargate tech AND templar tech AND robotics tech. Same goes for Terran, really: They don't _need_ an armory if they don't plan on getting Thors. They don't need a Fusion Core if they're not going for HSM or BCs. Zerg may not need to get a Baneling Nest, etc.
On April 06 2010 20:09 MorroW wrote:
terran already has most upgrades and tech buildings needed to play in the game, ur not thinking far enough ;
Again, not true. Attack and armor upgrades are the same for everyone, so what other upgrades do Terrans need? Stimpack, Combat Shield... am I missing something? Sure, you might want to get Infernal Pre-Igniter, Nitro Packs or Cloak for improved harassment, but they're not necessary upgrades any more than, say, Tunneling Claws for Roaches.
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On April 06 2010 21:48 suejak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 21:43 Daerthalus wrote:
Marauders stimming = 125 HP to 105 HP. They will take maybe 10 damage from the storm, 20 if the micro is bad.
Spending all those resources to kill the Medivacs will not beat the army on the ground. Next you'll suggest I graviton beam the Marauders 1 by one.
Spending 150/100 per Phoenix while my ground gets raped is not an effective use of resources, especially since Phoenixes can be countered easily by marines.
Like I said, what will prevent him from decimating my ground army? My Phoenix harass on his Medivacs? Well, this ain't rock-paper-scissors, it's a game. One storm is one storm from one templar. You would presumably need more than one storm if he's got a lot of marauders. Scratch zealots -- immortals can then go toe-to-toe with the no-medivac marauders. Marauders cannot attack air. Your phoenix is necessary to take out the medivacs. If he has marines, then he has a pretty solid, diverse army.
but to get his "diverse army" he will need some barracks with techlabs, and a starport with reactor, but what the P has to get in your example is robo/templar/stargate-tech. To fight a T1.5 army with a support unit.
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Doubt it will happen now but for diversity they should revamp the Marauder, Stalker and Roach entirely, they are way too similar.
Zerg has 2~3 melee units
Ling (tier 1)
Ultralisk (tier 3)
~Baneling
Protoss has 2~3
Zealot (tier 1)
Dark Templar (tier 3)
~Archon (tier 3.5)
Terran has no melee unit, in fact, all Terran units have superb range, so I would suggest the Marauder (tier 1.5) was instead turned into a melee unit (with appropriate balancing). This would add greater diversity to the game and would allow for a rebalance.
However, it is very doubtful this will happen but something to consider for the expansion perhaps. It just feels sad that after being so long in development, units are so similar. The only melee unit Terran had in SC1 was even removed.
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Netherlands19129 Posts
Feedback the medivacs y0.
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On April 06 2010 21:27 Daerthalus wrote:
If my previous suggestions have fallen on deaf ears here is what I posted with regard to nerfing the 3 issue units. Since many are opposed to slow removal or nerfs, I avoided them this time.
Immortal to 20+20 from 20+30. Makes terran mech more viable.
Marauder to 100 HP and 8+12 from 125 HP and 10+10. The change in damage makes light units more viable vs Marauders. The Change in HP is with respect to balancing it vs the Roach and Immortal nerfs.
Roach to 115 HP from 145 HP. Possibly a supply change (i dunno if it's needed). The HP is just to keep Roaches on par with Immortals and Marauders. Also makes roaches slightly less overpowered vs zerglings, zealots and other low tier units.
THE MATH see thread: The Roach is what is wrong with SC2. It's a thread on the issues that come from the Terirble 3, the Unholy Trinity, or w/e you call them.
Essentially:
The nerfed Immortal kills the nerfed Marauder and roach just as fast as before.
The nerfed Marauder and Roach each kill each other 1.25 as fast, so it's balanced between themselves.
Possible side effect include making AoE more effective vs Roach and Marauders, as well as making T1 units slightly better vs them. Still all T1 units are defeated by equal cost in roaches, so Roaches > T1 units.
My 2 cents :
I averall like these changes. As a Z player , i wonder how ZvZ would adapt to this. I'm a bit concerned that is migth change from Roaches Vs Roaches to Speedlings Vs Speedlings. But it can not make ZvZ worse that it s already IMHO.
Concerning ZvT.As of now, if the terran goes into a pure marauder army, building any roach is suicidal, i usually stop roaches as soon a i have enough to defend against helions to pure hydra. But hydras are even against marauders, so its still hard to beat the terran. With these changes, Hydras will now demolish the marauders, so i feel like marines would need a small dmg boost, but averall it should be fine ( except that the broodlord is still imba ofcc  ).
However, I'm much more concerned when it comes to ZvP. It was allready pretty hard to hold off the initial Protoss attack , but with weaken roaches, it is going to be even harder :/. I would like to see a force field energy cost increase. Something like 50 energy to 75 energy.
So adds these :
* Forcefield cost increased to 75 from 50
* Marine damage incresed by 1.
and, by my opinion, the game would be much more fun 
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i think a reduction in both hp and especially rate of fire would be whats needed to balance the marauder, a reduction in marine as well as reactor build time should bring rines back as the core unit, if the scv/rine allin is a problem it should be balanced with a longer rax build time
obviously this can only work if the roach is nerfed along with the immortal, the roach is a tough one, it needs serious reworking imho, maybe it would work to give it back its heavy regeneration, make it faster, but have most of its damage converted to + vs light in order to make it more of a harass unit?
more detailed list of proposed changes inside
+ Show Spoiler +
terran
- reduce marine build time
- reduce reactor build time
- marauders hp down quite a bit (85?), attack speed slowed
- maybe make marauders a little bit cheaper if they they arent worth their cost any more after those changes
- medivac heal speed increased and more hp healed per energy point
makes marines viable again, turns marauders into a support unit, medivac heal change keeps marauders viable in late game even with low hp
- give tanks bonus damage to armored
should make mech more viable
- give half the banshee damage as + vs light
make banshees a harass unit instead of a dominating atg killer
- return scv back to 60hp but only give them 2 damage
wouldnt that always have been the better solution for scv/rine rush?
zerg
- give hydras some of their damage as + vs armored
further helps marines
- give roaches most of their damage as + vs light, make them faster, give them back their heavy regeneration
- reduce their hp a little
should turn the roach into a harassment unit
protoss
- increase the amount of damage the immortal can take without activating its shields a little
- reduce immortal bonus damage a little
also i would really like to see psi storm brought back to 2 radius :/
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On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote:
Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not.
On April 06 2010 20:09 MorroW wrote:
why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine?
ur killing every single rush possibility of the terran by doing this, marine bunker rush? yea right like thats gonna happen when bunks r 30 and rines r 25
I feel this is an interesting point there should be more discussion about- after all, you'll never be able to agree on fixes for the Marauder if you can't first agree on what's the problem with the Marauder (if any).
Do Terrans have the capacity to be the aggressors most of the time in TvP? Are Protoss just as capable of putting the pressure on Terrans, or maybe even more so? Let's try to figure this out constructively. Early pressure tactics mentioned so far include:
PvT:
+ Show Spoiler +- Proxy gates
- Cannon rushes
- Early Void Rays
- Proxy DTs
- Other ground unit combos (gateway units + immortals)
TvP:
+ Show Spoiler +- Reaper rush
- Marauder rush
- Proxy barracks
- Bunker rush
- Early banshees
- Drops
Just as important as the number of ways you can put early pressure on your opponent is, how effective are these strats? If we can get a good grasp on how strong P early pressure is compared to T early pressure, we can get past the first hurdle, namely: agree on what the problem is.
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On April 06 2010 22:26 Tyrran wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 21:27 Daerthalus wrote:
If my previous suggestions have fallen on deaf ears here is what I posted with regard to nerfing the 3 issue units. Since many are opposed to slow removal or nerfs, I avoided them this time.
Immortal to 20+20 from 20+30. Makes terran mech more viable.
Marauder to 100 HP and 8+12 from 125 HP and 10+10. The change in damage makes light units more viable vs Marauders. The Change in HP is with respect to balancing it vs the Roach and Immortal nerfs.
Roach to 115 HP from 145 HP. Possibly a supply change (i dunno if it's needed). The HP is just to keep Roaches on par with Immortals and Marauders. Also makes roaches slightly less overpowered vs zerglings, zealots and other low tier units.
THE MATH see thread: The Roach is what is wrong with SC2. It's a thread on the issues that come from the Terirble 3, the Unholy Trinity, or w/e you call them.
Essentially:
The nerfed Immortal kills the nerfed Marauder and roach just as fast as before.
The nerfed Marauder and Roach each kill each other 1.25 as fast, so it's balanced between themselves.
Possible side effect include making AoE more effective vs Roach and Marauders, as well as making T1 units slightly better vs them. Still all T1 units are defeated by equal cost in roaches, so Roaches > T1 units.
However, I'm much more concerned when it comes to ZvP. It was allready pretty hard to hold off the initial Protoss attack , but with weaken roaches, it is going to be even harder :/. I would like to see a force field energy cost increase. Something like 50 energy to 75 energy. So adds these : * Forcefield cost increased to 75 from 50 * Marine damage incresed by 1. and, by my opinion, the game would be much more fun That would completely break 2v2 and make Protoss impossible to play. The only thing Toss can do atm in 2v2 to stop his base from getting overrun early on is to force field. If it was increased to 75 there would no possible way to stop some of these rushes.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 06 2010 22:34 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 18:16 Plexa wrote:
Okay, after much discussion I feel that the only issue with Marauders is the strength they offer so early on in the game. Specifically, Marauder rushes and what not. Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 20:09 MorroW wrote:
why do u want the marauder to be the core unit of terran and not the marine?
ur killing every single rush possibility of the terran by doing this, marine bunker rush? yea right like thats gonna happen when bunks r 30 and rines r 25 I feel this is an interesting point there should be more discussion about- after all, you'll never be able to agree on fixes for the Marauder if you can't first agree on what's the problem with the Marauder (if any). Do Terrans have the capacity to be the aggressors most of the time in TvP? Are Protoss just as capable of putting the pressure on Terrans, or maybe even more so? Let's try to figure this out constructively. Early pressure tactics mentioned so far include: PvT: + Show Spoiler +- Proxy gates
- Cannon rushes
- Early Void Rays
- Proxy DTs
- Other ground unit combos (gateway units + immortals) TvP: + Show Spoiler +- Reaper rush
- Marauder rush
- Proxy barracks
- Bunker rush
- Early banshees
- Drops Just as important as the number of ways you can put early pressure on your opponent is, how effective are these strats? If we can get a good grasp on how strong P early pressure is compared to T early pressure, we can get past the first hurdle, namely: agree on what the problem is.
Excellent post. I'll try redirect the thread in this direction.
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EPT
