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Zeke50100
United States2220 Posts
I personally like the Supply Drop. I'm sure people are confused when I have 3 more Marines than I should, and when I happen to stop a timing attack because I chose the Supply rather than the MULE. Why do people say the Supply has ZERO benefit? That's just not true; there is a benefit, and you have to choose between the 3 OC abilities. Each of them serve very different purposes, and should be used when needed (or if you work them into your build, obviously / when you feel like it) | ||
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Jonoman92
United States9107 Posts
On March 27 2010 18:04 avilo wrote: no offense...but there is no choice. You mule, or save for scans. supply drop = you are in copper league. mule = you are in platinum league This simply isn't always true. I almost never use the supply drop ability. But if you lose a depot or get caught missing a depot (I'm sure you're too gosu for this to happen to ofc) then it can be a really helpful ability. Like let's say you have a raven que'd but at in the red so you do a supply drop because you see a dt headed towards your base and you don't have an ebay, and scan is only a temporary deterrent. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
The only time I can rationalize using supply drop is if you screwed up your macro and forgot a supply depot. (Or you lost em and you need to keep up your production.) There's very few instances in which you "don't need minerals". | ||
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cyllu2
Sweden74 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On March 27 2010 19:17 Rabiator wrote: Supply drop is not really "100 immediate minerals" but rather not needing to pay for supply. So it might be feasible right at the start to call down supply on the first depot and build a barracks faster instead. Sure the Mule is a good choice as well, but the speed gain from being able to increase supply AND added production facilities might be worth it. It just needs someone to make it work. A MULE mines 90 minerals in 30 seconds. So getting the second barracks (because you need the first one for an Orbital Command anyway) 30-40 seconds faster translates into 1 extra marine (especially with the build-time increase). You're not going to be able to turn that 1 extra marine into an advantage before the other 170 minerals of using a MULE could have turned into a bigger advantage. On March 27 2010 19:18 MeruFM wrote: After 1 minute 30 seconds, mule build gains 140 more mineral. BUT for about 43 seconds, the supply drop has the mineral advantage. I refuse to believe that there is no use in that 43 seconds of mineral advantage. Building an extra CC in that time is just an example that would be beneficial. 43 seconds means you get a 2nd orbital command 43 seconds earlier, have 2 SCV advantage for the entire game. I'm not going to do anymore number crunching but I hope this gives a bit of insight into why I think it's not a completely lost ability in anything above copper. The thing is, in actuality there are ways that you can soften the effect of the mineral disadvantage, knowing that you'll make it back. In the case of getting an expansion up, you can cut a depot or SCV for a few seconds to start the expansion first, because you'll make back the mineral cost of delaying an SCV. | ||
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RatherGood
Canada147 Posts
This game is based around timing attacks, you can't argue this point. The Supply Depot can give you a timing advantage. Therefore, unquestionably, it has uses in timing attacks. Just because you can't think of a specific timing attack to use it in doesn't make it worthless. I really, really don't want to break its uses down into hypothetical situations because we could argue about those all day, but the point is that if you make a a really decisive, well timed attack against your opponent, the more power you can put into the attack at that particular time, the better off you will be. There are times in the game where a time advantage is more important than a gradual mineral advantage. If you can hurt the other player's economy more, their tech more, or their whatever more, would you really rather have an extra few minerals? Think about the extra minerals in a specific period of time as an offensive tool. As Day9 said in one of his casts, it'll take the longest time before people really figure out these timing attacks in Starcraft 2. Therefore, it'll take time before people figure out how to really use Supply Depot as it gives you a timing advantage, but that's only useful if you know where the windows of opportunity are. | ||
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Tinithor
United States1552 Posts
On March 28 2010 07:43 RatherGood wrote: Some of you guys are thinking in absolutes hen you haven't fully thought this through. A lot of good arguments have been made for and against it, with most of them being largely ignored with absolute, completely definitive statements that it has no use. This game is based around timing attacks, you can't argue this point. The Supply Depot can give you a timing advantage. Therefore, unquestionably, it has uses in timing attacks. Just because you can't think of a specific timing attack to use it in doesn't make it worthless. I really, really don't want to break its uses down into hypothetical situations because we could argue about those all day, but the point is that if you make a a really decisive, well timed attack against your opponent, the more power you can put into the attack at that particular time, the better off you will be. There are times in the game where a time advantage is more important than a gradual mineral advantage. If you can hurt the other player's economy more, their tech more, or their whatever more, would you really rather have an extra few minerals? Think about the extra minerals in a specific period of time as an offensive tool. As Day9 said in one of his casts, it'll take the longest time before people really figure out these timing attacks in Starcraft 2. Therefore, it'll take time before people figure out how to really use Supply Depot as it gives you a timing advantage, but that's only useful if you know where the windows of opportunity are. A mule mines the minerals for the depot in like 30 seconds. Like i said earlier in the thread, it will be better for timing attacks about 90% of the time except for like RIGHT before you attack in order to get 1 last round of units and thats about it. | ||
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ComradeDover
Bulgaria758 Posts
On March 27 2010 21:30 streamofhonour wrote: you guys are ony talking about the advantages of the SD and ignoring the bad side of it. imo i think the sd is a double edged sword to the terran. it is a permanent investment that cannot b removed once used. if your SD'ed depots were destroyed, you would have to build 2 more depots to cover the drop in supply. And also, do note that once the SD'ed depots are destroyed, thats essentially 50 mana lost forever in the game - mana that could allow you to gain a MULE and have an econ boost or a scan which could give u vital scouting info its too risky to use SD as an alt to MULE at the moment, but i do foresee uses where it could potentially benefit the terran more then the other 2 This is like saying building a medivac is too risky because if it dies you've lost a bunch of gas, or saying building a cc to expand is too risky because if it dies you've lost 400 minerals. I don't see it as any riskier than any other choice you can make in the course of a game. If the enemy is in your base blowing up all your supply depots, chances are the mistake you made isn't "I shouldn't have used Supply Drop". On March 27 2010 23:29 Zeke50100 wrote: It's a matter of preference. This is only the 32839th thread about t >.> Is it? I used search before I made the thread and nothing came up for "Supply Drop"... On March 28 2010 07:51 Tinithor wrote: A mule mines the minerals for the depot in like 30 seconds. Like i said earlier in the thread, it will be better for timing attacks about 90% of the time except for like RIGHT before you attack in order to get 1 last round of units and thats about it. Someone in this thread number-crunched it to about 43 seconds, and that's enough time for the unit you're making with your extra 100 minerals to be finished, as opposed to just being put into the queue like it would be with MULE, and this will take even longer (80 seconds or so) if you have to pay for the supply depot you presumably want to build. Time is just as much of an important resource in SC2 as minerals and gas are. | ||
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Funchucks
Canada2113 Posts
On March 28 2010 07:51 Tinithor wrote: A mule mines the minerals for the depot in like 30 seconds. ...and then you have to wait 30 seconds for the depot to build, and you have to take an SCV off the production line to do it. As I previously explained, supply drop can pay off 100 minerals in savings over 30 seconds before you have the energy to use it, plus the savings of not taking an SCV off the mineral line (which I had guessed was around 50 minerals, but is probably closer to 25-30). I made the example previously that under some circumstances, you could use the savings to build 3 extra SCVs, with 2 finished and put to work before you even have the energy to call a MULE, and gaining 3 SCVs to keep forever is generally better than 1 MULE that lasts 90 seconds. There are obviously many circumstances where MULEs are the best choice, but if you can't see that supply drop is the best choice in other circumstances, you're just refusing to think. | ||
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Tinithor
United States1552 Posts
On March 28 2010 08:48 Funchucks wrote: ...and then you have to wait 30 seconds for the depot to build, and you have to take an SCV off the production line to do it. As I previously explained, supply drop can pay off 100 minerals in savings over 30 seconds before you have the energy to use it, plus the savings of not taking an SCV off the mineral line (which I had guessed was around 50 minerals, but is probably closer to 25-30). I made the example previously that under some circumstances, you could use the savings to build 3 extra SCVs, with 2 finished and put to work before you even have the energy to call a MULE, and gaining 3 SCVs to keep forever is generally better than 1 MULE that lasts 90 seconds. There are obviously many circumstances where MULEs are the best choice, but if you can't see that supply drop is the best choice in other circumstances, you're just refusing to think. Like i said its useful when you lost some supply depots , forgot them , or RIGHT before you are about to timing push (cause that extra one hundred minerals will let you queue right then. But again the mule will let you produce stuff continuously more than the depot sooo i don't see MUCH merit in it except for very few circumstances. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On March 28 2010 08:48 Funchucks wrote: I made the example previously that under some circumstances, you could use the savings to build 3 extra SCVs, with 2 finished and put to work before you even have the energy to call a MULE, and gaining 3 SCVs to keep forever is generally better than 1 MULE that lasts 90 seconds. Not to disagree with your overall statement, but you can't use Supply Drop to get you extra SCVs like that unless you were already cutting them or missed a depot. You don't just start units out of production buildings that didn't exist before, and generally speaking, you should be on constant SCV production anyway. You don't get 3 extra ones unless you have a CC that wasn't building things. | ||
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ComradeDover
Bulgaria758 Posts
On March 28 2010 08:56 Tinithor wrote: Like i said its useful when you lost some supply depots , forgot them , or RIGHT before you are about to timing push (cause that extra one hundred minerals will let you queue right then. I think this thread has shown there's both an immediate advantage in the form of a free 100 minerals and a long-term advantage of an extra 100 minerals worth of stuff overall over the course of the game. It seems like the time to use Supply Drop isn't just at the obvious points you mention like when you forget a depot or when you have a timing push, but rather at any point you have a supply depot to build and have a safe unupgraded supply depot available. | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
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ComradeDover
Bulgaria758 Posts
On March 28 2010 19:59 Unentschieden wrote: Supply drop protects your Depos. Not by increasing Armor or HP but by making them a bad Target. Terrans have to expose their Depos for walling and destroying them would normally be a good deal for your opponent. If you are in the red Supply Drop is FAR better than MULE especially if it wasn´t a hit-and-run. Thats why Depos are "harrassmentproof" unlike Overlords. I'm not sure I understood this. | ||
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ninjafetus
United States231 Posts
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Funchucks
Canada2113 Posts
On March 29 2010 07:33 ninjafetus wrote: He's saying that Supply Depots are a less attractive target than overlords and pylons because you can use supply drop to avoid being supply blocked. I don't know how true it is, but that's his logic. To further clarify, it's not the depots you drop on that are protected (these are obviously more tempting targets) when you have actually dropped, it's the undropped depots, when you have the energy to drop supplies. I don't think it's a terribly strong argument. Depot-killing is not as disruptive, but forcing your opponent to drop supply instead of calling MULEs is still big. Plus, if you want to use supply drop to quickly substitute for lost depots, you're going to spend a lot of time sitting on valuable OC energy instead of using it to gather or save minerals, which is a considerable expense in and of itself. | ||
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Funchucks
Canada2113 Posts
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ComradeDover
Bulgaria758 Posts
On March 29 2010 07:50 Funchucks wrote: Plus, if you want to use supply drop to quickly substitute for lost depots, you're going to spend a lot of time sitting on valuable OC energy instead of using it to gather or save minerals, which is a considerable expense in and of itself. Depending on the matchup, it may be wise to leave energy for scan anyway. It's just a matter of using your reserves for a different purpose. | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
On March 27 2010 13:36 Divinek wrote: they are dumbing it down, auto mine, auto split, mbs, smart casting, auto surround etc etc. But that's not the point, supply drop really would be only useful for bad players, though that's a pretty large application right there isnt it. MULE and scan are just better in every way, supply drop can't ever be used in some high level way except for maybe some all in build where this gives you extra supply really fast...even then im sure a MULE would give you the same thing if you just build a supply depot with the resources you get on top of everything else. I'm not sure you understand wtf "Dumbing down" means. Dumbing down is the action of "Making less complex". The things they've /added/, obviously, reduce mechanical requirements of the game. It is clearly more accessible, and I don't think anyone would do argue that. However, that in itself is not indicative of "dumbing down". Is the game any less complex a game because of mechanical changes? In many ways, the opposite has occurred. Spells like forcefeild would have never entered use in SC1. Not to mention the range of usable units (Name one unit in the beta thats as unused as say, the scout or queen. The closest is the void ray, and we see that being used often, like in the TLO v Nazgul match) has been increased. SC2 in many ways is more complex then SC2. Sure, SC2 is more accessible. That doesn't make it less dumbed down, or less complex a game. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
Calldown Supply +8 Suppply +4 Armour I would diversify Calldown Supplys use as both a Supply Block lifesaver and as Wall Builder. Combined with the Engeneering Bay +2 upgrades for buildings there is the potential to make Depots Walls really hard to break through (1+2+4=7 armour!) :D | ||
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