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United States47024 Posts
On March 27 2010 15:04 nujgnoy wrote:
I know that to be 100% efficient you would use calldown supply because it's value for free. But ideal efficiency isn't always practical efficiency.
For example, two players begin a game
A begins with 7 patches and start with 1000 minerals
B begins with 8 patches and start with 0 minerals
Obviously it would be better ot begin as A because having the money NOW lets you use it for quicker development. Sure, the extra patch is worth 1500 and 500 more, so B would be better off in the long run, but A would dominate early game. The faster development would let him probably secure another expansion = more money. A can FE. Or, he can take map control with macro which will allow him to take expansions. Or, he can tech faster.
This is an exaggerated example, but one that shows why having faster money albeit lesser overall might be more beneficial than having more money at a slower pace.
I would say it's a mistake to use it early on, because supply is not as valuable in the early game where unit production rate is low. It might be more beneficial later in the game when 1. unit production rate is higher and 2. Overall income is higher so 270 income is relatively small.
This is basically how it works out.
Assuming two players are both good enough to hit all their depots on time, supply drop's benefit only kicks in when you can't use the extra resources to create superior economy. Practically speaking, this only happens in 2 cases:
1) The map is mined out. This happens in extremely rare cases. Planning your early/mid-game decisions sacrificing immediate economy for this situation is not a good idea.
2) Your opponent has the army advantage and map control--something like supply drop which takes so long to pan out its advantage doesn't help you. You need immediate resources to win a battle and fight your way back into the game before your opponent's advantage becomes insurmountable.
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no offense...but there is no choice. You mule, or save for scans.
supply drop = you are in copper league.
mule = you are in platinum league
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On March 27 2010 17:57 Tinithor wrote:
I honestly do NOT see how supply drop would be good in any sort of timing push. More money from mules means more units which is what a timing push is all about right? Maybe if at the very end right before you pushed you would use it for that last few minerals right before your attack but that seems about it.
Because if you supply drop, the benefits kick in immediately, and last forever. You get your free supply depot right then and there, which means you're not taking an SCV off minerals to build it and not spending 100 minerals. Those are 100 minerals you have at the instant you make the decision to use supply drop. Those immediate 100 minerals can immediately be put to use buying marines or hellions or upgrades or whatever.
On the other hand, the MULE gives you more minerals over time, and eventually stops working and has to be-cast to be sustained. The 240-300 minerals you'll get during the 120 second lifespan of the MULE can't be put to use immediately on casting. It's an investment that needs time to pay off.
On March 27 2010 18:04 TheYango wrote:
2) Your opponent has the army advantage and map control--something like supply drop which takes so long to pan out its advantage doesn't help you. You need immediate resources to win a battle and fight your way back into the game before your opponent's advantage becomes insurmountable.
That's part of what's been discussed in the thread so far. Supply drop = immediate 100 minerals, MULE = more than 100 minerals over the next 2 minutes. I'm sure there are several points where 100 minerals now are better than 300 minerals eventually, especially since MULE isn't giving you anything you won't get at one point or another. The thing is, it also has to coincide with a time you would be normally be building a supply depot at to gain this benefit.
On March 27 2010 18:04 avilo wrote:
no offense...but there is no choice. You mule, or save for scans.
supply drop = you are in copper league.
mule = you are in platinum league
What the fuck?
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People can theorycraft all they want about how "so and so gives you long term benefit" but what gives you econ the fastest is what wins you games. The mule is always 100% the better choice over a supply drop.
but as mentioned, I suppose in desperate desperate situations if you somehow lost depots it MIGHT be worthwhile to use the supply drop to quickly get back into production. But those cases are like 1%, as if you get in that situation you've already stabilized...and you can make back the cash for depots anyways. Unless you're mined outl ol.
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On March 27 2010 18:18 ComradeDover wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2010 17:57 Tinithor wrote:
I honestly do NOT see how supply drop would be good in any sort of timing push. More money from mules means more units which is what a timing push is all about right? Maybe if at the very end right before you pushed you would use it for that last few minerals right before your attack but that seems about it. Because if you supply drop, the benefits kick in immediately, and last forever. You get your free supply depot right then and there, which means you're not taking an SCV off minerals to build it and not spending 100 minerals. Those are 100 minerals you have at the instant you make the decision to use supply drop. Those immediate 100 minerals can immediately be put to use buying marines or hellions or upgrades or whatever. On the other hand, the MULE gives you more minerals over time, and eventually stops working and has to be-cast to be sustained. The 240-300 minerals you'll get during the 120 second lifespan of the MULE can't be put to use immediately on casting. It's an investment that needs time to pay off. Show nested quote +On March 27 2010 18:04 TheYango wrote:
2) Your opponent has the army advantage and map control--something like supply drop which takes so long to pan out its advantage doesn't help you. You need immediate resources to win a battle and fight your way back into the game before your opponent's advantage becomes insurmountable. That's part of what's been discussed in the thread so far. Supply drop = immediate 100 minerals, MULE = more than 100 minerals over the next 2 minutes. I'm sure there are several points where 100 minerals now are better than 300 minerals eventually, especially since MULE isn't giving you anything you won't get at one point or another. The thing is, it also has to coincide with a time you would be normally be building a supply depot at to gain this benefit. Show nested quote +On March 27 2010 18:04 avilo wrote:
no offense...but there is no choice. You mule, or save for scans.
supply drop = you are in copper league.
mule = you are in platinum league
What the fuck?
AGAIN, the more money from mules over time will be more usefull 99% of the time even for timing pushes EXCEPT for right before you are about to attack to crank out those last few units.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 27 2010 18:18 ComradeDover wrote:
That's part of what's been discussed in the thread so far. Supply drop = immediate 100 minerals, MULE = more than 100 minerals over the next 2 minutes. I'm sure there are several points where 100 minerals now are better than 300 minerals eventually, especially since MULE isn't giving you anything you won't get at one point or another. The thing is, it also has to coincide with a time you would be normally be building a supply depot at to gain this benefit.
Conversely, supply drop isn't an immediate 100 minerals. It's 100 minerals the next time you would need to start a depot, which in practice works out to being up to 30 seconds later. In that time, the MULE will have mined anywhere between nothing at all and 90 minerals.
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I'll say I feel pressured as a Terran into using MULES because I know the Zerg and Toss can both choose to macro up their probes / drones. More workers are better than MULES too.
The MULE advantage gave rise to spending and supporting a 2 rax reactor or 3 rax push early game putting those extra minerals to use, but now reactor timings is nerfed so you get a few less marines out.
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On March 27 2010 18:18 ComradeDover wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2010 18:04 avilo wrote:
no offense...but there is no choice. You mule, or save for scans.
supply drop = you are in copper league.
mule = you are in platinum league
What the fuck?
Well, he's right... as it is now you'd be a fool to use supply drop in any normal circumstances. This junk about benefits when you're mined out isn't worth serious discussion. Even ignoring the rarity of that situation the army superiority from getting those minerals earlier gives you a better EV than supply dropping.
Unless it enables some sort of amazing timing push (and until you can demonstrate clearly to us that one exists there is no reason to think so) the ability is scrub bait, trash, pure and simple.
tbh I don't know why this thread is still even open.
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On March 27 2010 18:39 Tinithor wrote:
AGAIN, the more money from mules over time will be more usefull 99% of the time even for timing pushes EXCEPT for right before you are about to attack to crank out those last few units.
It takes more than ONE MINUTE for the mule to mine until you're even to a SD. Which means, after ONE MINUTE you actually make profit off your mule. Now tell me one freaking minute isnt much in a timing attack.
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On March 27 2010 18:18 ComradeDover wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2010 18:04 TheYango wrote:
2) Your opponent has the army advantage and map control--something like supply drop which takes so long to pan out its advantage doesn't help you. You need immediate resources to win a battle and fight your way back into the game before your opponent's advantage becomes insurmountable. That's part of what's been discussed in the thread so far. Supply drop = immediate 100 minerals, MULE = more than 100 minerals over the next 2 minutes. I'm sure there are several points where 100 minerals now are better than 300 minerals eventually, especially since MULE isn't giving you anything you won't get at one point or another. The thing is, it also has to coincide with a time you would be normally be building a supply depot at to gain this benefit.
Supply drop is not really "100 immediate minerals" but rather not needing to pay for supply. So it might be feasible right at the start to call down supply on the first depot and build a barracks faster instead. Sure the Mule is a good choice as well, but the speed gain from being able to increase supply AND added production facilities might be worth it. It just needs someone to make it work.
On March 27 2010 18:18 ComradeDover wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2010 18:04 avilo wrote:
no offense...but there is no choice. You mule, or save for scans.
supply drop = you are in copper league.
mule = you are in platinum league
What the fuck?
My thoughts exactly, but if he chooses to ignore possible options it is his problem. No one wants to use supply drop on all the depots all the time, but refusing to think about ways to make it work is just as bad.
On March 27 2010 18:52 USn wrote:
tbh I don't know why this thread is still even open.
See above. Keep an open mind and try crazy things ...
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I guess I didn't make myself clear.
Supply drop = 2 seconds -50 energy
Supply depot = 30 seconds -100 money.
Mule = 90 seconds, -50 energy, +270 money, -30 money from scv that could be mining
Situations with 50 energy in the command center
Situation 1: Mule drop
0:00 - Supply depot start building (-100 net mineral) (23/26supply)
0:00 - Mule drop
0:30 - Supply depot finish building (26/34supply), [Mule for 30 seconds - scv building 30 seconds]= (-40 net mineral)
0:43 - Mule 43 seconds (0 net mineral)
1:00 - Mule 60 seconds (50 net mineral)
1:30 - Mule 90 seconds (140 net mineral)
Situation 2: Supply drop
0:00 - Nothing happening (23/26 supply)
0:28 - Supply drop (26/26)
0:30 - Supply drop complete (26/34 supply)
1:00 - Nothing
1:30 - Nothing
After 1 minute 30 seconds, mule build gains 140 more mineral.
BUT for about 43 seconds, the supply drop has the mineral advantage.
I refuse to believe that there is no use in that 43 seconds of mineral advantage. Building an extra CC in that time is just an example that would be beneficial. 43 seconds means you get a 2nd orbital command 43 seconds earlier, have 2 SCV advantage for the entire game. I'm not going to do anymore number crunching but I hope this gives a bit of insight into why I think it's not a completely lost ability in anything above copper.
A somewhat more minor point is that since you only need to drop the supply when you get capped at 26, you get an extra 28 seconds to ponder if that energy might be better used for a scan.
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On March 27 2010 19:18 MeruFM wrote:
I guess I didn't make myself clear.
Supply drop = 2 seconds -50 energy
Supply depot = 30 seconds -100 money.
Mule = 90 seconds, -50 energy, +270 money, -30 money from scv that could be mining
Situations with 50 energy in the command center
Situation 1: Mule drop
0:00 - Supply depot start building (-100 net mineral) (23/26supply)
0:00 - Mule drop
0:30 - Supply depot finish building (26/34supply), [Mule for 30 seconds - scv building 30 seconds]= (-40 net mineral)
0:43 - Mule 43 seconds (0 net mineral)
1:00 - Mule 60 seconds (50 net mineral)
1:30 - Mule 90 seconds (140 net mineral)
Situation 2: Supply drop
0:00 - Nothing happening (23/26 supply)
0:28 - Supply drop (26/26)
0:30 - Supply drop complete (26/34 supply)
1:00 - Nothing
1:30 - Nothing
After 1 minute 30 seconds, mule build gains 140 more mineral.
BUT for about 43 seconds, the supply drop has the mineral advantage.
I refuse to believe that there is no use in that 43 seconds of mineral advantage. Building an extra CC in that time is just an example that would be beneficial. 43 seconds means you get a 2nd orbital command 43 seconds earlier, have 2 SCV advantage for the entire game. I'm not going to do anymore number crunching but I hope this gives a bit of insight into why I think it's not a completely lost ability in anything above copper.
A somewhat more minor point is that since you only need to drop the supply when you get capped at 26, you get an extra 28 seconds to ponder if that energy might be better used for a scan.
but is the overall 43 seconds of advantage significant? How big of a mineral gain do you have over that time period, obviously for the latter half it's almost nothing. And negating that for an extra 140 minerals only a little bit later is ridiculous. That's like suiciding units or losing a building early, that can be game changing.
yes i see that you could get some things out faster and things like that but it seems like you'd be too vulnerable early for this to compound into an advantage later, giving up early game presence is pretty painful either way
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On March 27 2010 19:24 Divinek wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2010 19:18 MeruFM wrote:
I guess I didn't make myself clear.
Supply drop = 2 seconds -50 energy
Supply depot = 30 seconds -100 money.
Mule = 90 seconds, -50 energy, +270 money, -30 money from scv that could be mining
Situations with 50 energy in the command center
Situation 1: Mule drop
0:00 - Supply depot start building (-100 net mineral) (23/26supply)
0:00 - Mule drop
0:30 - Supply depot finish building (26/34supply), [Mule for 30 seconds - scv building 30 seconds]= (-40 net mineral)
0:43 - Mule 43 seconds (0 net mineral)
1:00 - Mule 60 seconds (50 net mineral)
1:30 - Mule 90 seconds (140 net mineral)
Situation 2: Supply drop
0:00 - Nothing happening (23/26 supply)
0:28 - Supply drop (26/26)
0:30 - Supply drop complete (26/34 supply)
1:00 - Nothing
1:30 - Nothing
After 1 minute 30 seconds, mule build gains 140 more mineral.
BUT for about 43 seconds, the supply drop has the mineral advantage.
I refuse to believe that there is no use in that 43 seconds of mineral advantage. Building an extra CC in that time is just an example that would be beneficial. 43 seconds means you get a 2nd orbital command 43 seconds earlier, have 2 SCV advantage for the entire game. I'm not going to do anymore number crunching but I hope this gives a bit of insight into why I think it's not a completely lost ability in anything above copper.
A somewhat more minor point is that since you only need to drop the supply when you get capped at 26, you get an extra 28 seconds to ponder if that energy might be better used for a scan. but is the overall 43 seconds of advantage significant? How big of a mineral gain do you have over that time period, obviously for the latter half it's almost nothing. And negating that for an extra 140 minerals only a little bit later is ridiculous. That's like suiciding units or losing a building early, that can be game changing.
If you manage to get a command center 43 seconds faster,. about 35 seconds after the mule from the 2nd command center comes out, you'll be at even money again. Plus you got 2 extra SCVs.
Edit: SCVs build in 17 seconds, so actually nearly 3 extra SCV. If you're only looking at an economic standpoint, I would say that after 43 seconds, the supply drop build is gaining 3 mineral extra per second over the mule build and that's for the entire duration until the 2nd expansion get saturated with workers again.
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It should not require Orbital Command.
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I use supply drop frequently when I have additional scouting and I don't need the minerals right away. It prevents you from ever getting supply blocked and it still is a valuable investment:
The value of supply drop is 100 minerals + the amount of minerals an SCV will mine in the time it takes to build a supply depot. So this is maybe 150 minerals?
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you guys are ony talking about the advantages of the SD and ignoring the bad side of it. imo i think the sd is a double edged sword to the terran. it is a permanent investment that cannot b removed once used. if your SD'ed depots were destroyed, you would have to build 2 more depots to cover the drop in supply. And also, do note that once the SD'ed depots are destroyed, thats essentially 50 mana lost forever in the game - mana that could allow you to gain a MULE and have an econ boost or a scan which could give u vital scouting info
its too risky to use SD as an alt to MULE at the moment, but i do foresee uses where it could potentially benefit the terran more then the other 2
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I don't think that it's wise to bank on the depo being destroyed. Just don't upgrade the one at your ramp an the likelihood of it being destroyed goes down a considerable amount. Enjoying the debate though guys, keep it up! I like hearing both sides of this!
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I think SD should double the health of the depot you dropped it on. doubles the whole ability to make wallins better and also more tempting to destroy!
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Another advantage of supply drop is that it gives its 100 minerals instantly, while mule needs time to do it. If you are going for some kind of early push strat I could see it being worth it.
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This is a great thread, and i will definantly start using SD to get buldings squished out earlier. Can't wait untill an equally interresting and calm thread comes up about how to conter mutas ZvP(trying out carriers atm  )
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EPT
