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is the site still down for anyone?
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On February 26 2010 01:02 ShaperofDreams wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 00:56 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:On February 26 2010 00:44 spinesheath wrote:On February 26 2010 00:40 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:On February 26 2010 00:31 Misrah wrote:On February 26 2010 00:29 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:On February 25 2010 23:43 Misrah wrote:On February 25 2010 23:05 bendez wrote: Again, there is no "auto-surround" feature. Units know the most effective route to reach an enemy unit, and as a result, they surround the unit. You yourself said that you want units to know the shortest distance possible. In SC2, they did just that. Bendez glad that you heard about sc2- and came running over to this site to come and enjoy the beta. However- After reading through this entire thread I have come to the conclusion that you and many other 'new' members to the community are going to be frustrated with TL. the reason is simply this: You are a noobie to starcraft. I have seen so many players here not understand why starcraft is such a great game, and why so many people here on TL are very worried with the current state of the game. New members of our community need to try and understand that most people hear have played SC for years, and in the case of nazgul for decades. Please do not come into the community with assumed opinions about how an RTS should play. For the members of the community that have been playing starcraft for some time, they know far better than most what map control and unit positioning should play like. I am sorry but right now SC2 is a joke. Mechanically the game is not demanding, and you are completely incorrect to some how think that SC2 can be compared to SC1. SC2 is filled with easy buttons as far as i am concerned. There is no more micro, and macro is a one key press now. Any long term player of SC would not argue with me if I were to say that SC2 is: - Has limited micro capability - Is not mechanically demanding - Does not have the depth that SC enjoyed - Has poor excuses for APM sinks - Big battles are simply 1a2a3a, where any types of in battle decisions are negligible. Everything dies to quickly, or is too closely packed together- that your typical late game attacks are basically two blobs just attacking each other. - That Blizzard has made SC2 more casual (and has even been quoted as saying that they would like their mothers to be able to pick up and play the game) - We realize that the game will be more profitable if it is easy, so new players like yourself can easily and quickly start winning. However our community has a problem with this train of thought, because we had hoped that SC2 > SC1 however as every day passes that dream is slowly fading away. In short- SC2 is the super smash brothers brawl of SC1. (whereas SC1 is melee.) As a competitive melee player myself, brawl was a huge disappointment- and i fear that SC2 will be the same. u certainly have a point. but ur wrong too. u say sc2 is easier then sc1 and it is not as demanding and so on perhaps ur right and it is a little easier in general but fact is that 80% of the sc1 progamers ive seen playing so far just plain suck at sc2. I stopped reading here.and i couldnt believe it when i first saw it. ret for example one of the best foreigner players in sc1, he even went to korea to train there, plays sc2 like a total nooby fact is learning sc:bw and becoming good at it is nothing compared to mastering a new game. atm sc2 is not easier to play than sc. it might be in 10years, namely when there is as much "data" as there is about sc:bw. what happens is a shift of the skills required. u can no longer read all guides, hammer them into ur head like a machine, get required apm and fkn pwn. too many sc players think they are the gods of RTS gamers. infact nobody knows more about their game as sc players do but that is only natural cause sc is the game that has been around the longest. players from all other RTS games currently play on an equal or even higher lvl then the sc players. do u know why? because most sc players have forgotten what an RTS is all about. its not only about APM, macro, micro. only SC is it in his current state because the stategical part has evolved over the years to a point where there is not much that will change. and that is why many sc players fkn suck at sc2 until they remember how to use their head again. when i see a terra whine about stealthed units because he has no detection and on the other hand he is proud how he didnt miss a single mule dropdown, i can do nothing expect to shake my head in disbelieve. GJ u macroed perfectly but how about using ur head and fkn scan instead of getting +270 minerals and lose to invis units??? if u want macro, micro and apm go on continue to play SC u might be right that it is more demanding in that particular part but stop posting shit like sc2 is easier then sc it rly annoys the hell out of me ps: frustration of not having a beta key yet may have caused generel aggresive tone in my speech and is not to be taken personaly Not wasting me time. u are so proving on of my points... its a fact dude just get over it. i didnt say it might not change with the time. but watch a replay of ret, kolll etc and if u say: "wow he did play good", i allow u to call my post "time wasting" It's no fact (it's blatantly wrong), and he didn't prove any of your points. yes i get it, u play sc and u have been a tl member longer than i have. ur oppinion is right, mine is wrong. don't waste ur time reading my posts i have no clue. u are the gods of RTS and ur idols are gosu no matter what they do, they can even please 10 woman at the same time. You have a troll ID, a troll post count, a troll opinion based on troll facts, with a troll way of writing. Nobody is going to take you seriously, you are a troll.
yes i am a troll, the easiest way for u to denie some truth in my posts that otherwise could break the pillars of ur perfect world.
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On February 26 2010 00:56 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 00:44 spinesheath wrote:On February 26 2010 00:40 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:On February 26 2010 00:31 Misrah wrote:On February 26 2010 00:29 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:On February 25 2010 23:43 Misrah wrote:On February 25 2010 23:05 bendez wrote: Again, there is no "auto-surround" feature. Units know the most effective route to reach an enemy unit, and as a result, they surround the unit. You yourself said that you want units to know the shortest distance possible. In SC2, they did just that. Bendez glad that you heard about sc2- and came running over to this site to come and enjoy the beta. However- After reading through this entire thread I have come to the conclusion that you and many other 'new' members to the community are going to be frustrated with TL. the reason is simply this: You are a noobie to starcraft. I have seen so many players here not understand why starcraft is such a great game, and why so many people here on TL are very worried with the current state of the game. New members of our community need to try and understand that most people hear have played SC for years, and in the case of nazgul for decades. Please do not come into the community Hey kimberly, I am just writing this to you wondering when you would like to meet to work on our presentation. Feel free to give me a call anytime At 19202464963 hope to hear from you soon Ben For the members of the community that have been playing starcraft for some time, they know far better than most what map control and unit positioning should play like. Glad to see your begining to understand. And yes I am 100 percent serious. I don't think you know anything. And considering you probably have not played a true game of Starcraft in quite some time your opinions are out dated. I am sorry but right now SC2 is a joke. Mechanically the game is not demanding, and you are completely incorrect to some how think that SC2 can be compared to SC1. SC2 is filled with easy buttons as far as i am concerned. There is no more micro, and macro is a one key press now. Any long term player of SC would not argue with me if I were to say that SC2 is: - Has limited micro capability - Is not mechanically demanding - Does not have the depth that SC enjoyed - Has poor excuses for APM sinks - Big battles are simply 1a2a3a, where any types of in battle decisions are negligible. Everything dies to quickly, or is too closely packed together- that your typical late game attacks are basically two blobs just attacking each other. - That Blizzard has made SC2 more casual (and has even been quoted as saying that they would like their mothers to be able to pick up and play the game) - We realize that the game will be more profitable if it is easy, so new players like yourself can easily and quickly start winning. However our community has a problem with this train of thought, because we had hoped that SC2 > SC1 however as every day passes that dream is slowly fading away. In short- SC2 is the super smash brothers brawl of SC1. (whereas SC1 is melee.) As a competitive melee player myself, brawl was a huge disappointment- and i fear that SC2 will be the same. u certainly have a point. but ur wrong too. u say sc2 is easier then sc1 and it is not as demanding and so on perhaps ur right and it is a little easier in general but fact is that 80% of the sc1 progamers ive seen playing so far just plain suck at sc2. I stopped reading here.and i couldnt believe it when i first saw it. ret for example one of the best foreigner players in sc1, he even went to korea to train there, plays sc2 like a total nooby fact is learning sc:bw and becoming good at it is nothing compared to mastering a new game. atm sc2 is not easier to play than sc. it might be in 10years, namely when there is as much "data" as there is about sc:bw. what happens is a shift of the skills required. u can no longer read all guides, hammer them into ur head like a machine, get required apm and fkn pwn. too many sc players think they are the gods of RTS gamers. infact nobody knows more about their game as sc players do but that is only natural cause sc is the game that has been around the longest. players from all other RTS games currently play on an equal or even higher lvl then the sc players. do u know why? because most sc players have forgotten what an RTS is all about. its not only about APM, macro, micro. only SC is it in his current state because the stategical part has evolved over the years to a point where there is not much that will change. and that is why many sc players fkn suck at sc2 until they remember how to use their head again. when i see a terra whine about stealthed units because he has no detection and on the other hand he is proud how he didnt miss a single mule dropdown, i can do nothing expect to shake my head in disbelieve. GJ u macroed perfectly but how about using ur head and fkn scan instead of getting +270 minerals and lose to invis units??? if u want macro, micro and apm go on continue to play SC u might be right that it is more demanding in that particular part but stop posting shit like sc2 is easier then sc it rly annoys the hell out of me ps: frustration of not having a beta key yet may have caused generel aggresive tone in my speech and is not to be taken personaly Not wasting me time. u are so proving on of my points... its a fact dude just get over it. i didnt say it might not change with the time. but watch a replay of ret, kolll etc and if u say: "wow he did play good", i allow u to call my post "time wasting" It's no fact (it's blatantly wrong), and he didn't prove any of your points. yes i get it, u play sc and u have been a tl member longer than i have. ur oppinion is right, mine is wrong. don't waste ur time reading my posts i have no clue. u are the gods of RTS and ur idols are gosu no matter what they do, they can even please 10 woman at the same time.
Glad you are starting to understand. I don't care what you have to say because you do not understand sc. Then you make baseless opinions about me And tl when you probably just found this site today. Yes I am 100 percent serious.
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United States4126 Posts
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On February 26 2010 01:04 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 01:00 mdb wrote:On February 26 2010 00:56 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:On February 26 2010 00:44 spinesheath wrote:On February 26 2010 00:40 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:On February 26 2010 00:31 Misrah wrote:On February 26 2010 00:29 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:On February 25 2010 23:43 Misrah wrote:On February 25 2010 23:05 bendez wrote: Again, there is no "auto-surround" feature. Units know the most effective route to reach an enemy unit, and as a result, they surround the unit. You yourself said that you want units to know the shortest distance possible. In SC2, they did just that. Bendez glad that you heard about sc2- and came running over to this site to come and enjoy the beta. However- After reading through this entire thread I have come to the conclusion that you and many other 'new' members to the community are going to be frustrated with TL. the reason is simply this: You are a noobie to starcraft. I have seen so many players here not understand why starcraft is such a great game, and why so many people here on TL are very worried with the current state of the game. New members of our community need to try and understand that most people hear have played SC for years, and in the case of nazgul for decades. Please do not come into the community with assumed opinions about how an RTS should play. For the members of the community that have been playing starcraft for some time, they know far better than most what map control and unit positioning should play like. I am sorry but right now SC2 is a joke. Mechanically the game is not demanding, and you are completely incorrect to some how think that SC2 can be compared to SC1. SC2 is filled with easy buttons as far as i am concerned. There is no more micro, and macro is a one key press now. Any long term player of SC would not argue with me if I were to say that SC2 is: - Has limited micro capability - Is not mechanically demanding - Does not have the depth that SC enjoyed - Has poor excuses for APM sinks - Big battles are simply 1a2a3a, where any types of in battle decisions are negligible. Everything dies to quickly, or is too closely packed together- that your typical late game attacks are basically two blobs just attacking each other. - That Blizzard has made SC2 more casual (and has even been quoted as saying that they would like their mothers to be able to pick up and play the game) - We realize that the game will be more profitable if it is easy, so new players like yourself can easily and quickly start winning. However our community has a problem with this train of thought, because we had hoped that SC2 > SC1 however as every day passes that dream is slowly fading away. In short- SC2 is the super smash brothers brawl of SC1. (whereas SC1 is melee.) As a competitive melee player myself, brawl was a huge disappointment- and i fear that SC2 will be the same. u certainly have a point. but ur wrong too. u say sc2 is easier then sc1 and it is not as demanding and so on perhaps ur right and it is a little easier in general but fact is that 80% of the sc1 progamers ive seen playing so far just plain suck at sc2. I stopped reading here.and i couldnt believe it when i first saw it. ret for example one of the best foreigner players in sc1, he even went to korea to train there, plays sc2 like a total nooby fact is learning sc:bw and becoming good at it is nothing compared to mastering a new game. atm sc2 is not easier to play than sc. it might be in 10years, namely when there is as much "data" as there is about sc:bw. what happens is a shift of the skills required. u can no longer read all guides, hammer them into ur head like a machine, get required apm and fkn pwn. too many sc players think they are the gods of RTS gamers. infact nobody knows more about their game as sc players do but that is only natural cause sc is the game that has been around the longest. players from all other RTS games currently play on an equal or even higher lvl then the sc players. do u know why? because most sc players have forgotten what an RTS is all about. its not only about APM, macro, micro. only SC is it in his current state because the stategical part has evolved over the years to a point where there is not much that will change. and that is why many sc players fkn suck at sc2 until they remember how to use their head again. when i see a terra whine about stealthed units because he has no detection and on the other hand he is proud how he didnt miss a single mule dropdown, i can do nothing expect to shake my head in disbelieve. GJ u macroed perfectly but how about using ur head and fkn scan instead of getting +270 minerals and lose to invis units??? if u want macro, micro and apm go on continue to play SC u might be right that it is more demanding in that particular part but stop posting shit like sc2 is easier then sc it rly annoys the hell out of me ps: frustration of not having a beta key yet may have caused generel aggresive tone in my speech and is not to be taken personaly Not wasting me time. u are so proving on of my points... its a fact dude just get over it. i didnt say it might not change with the time. but watch a replay of ret, kolll etc and if u say: "wow he did play good", i allow u to call my post "time wasting" It's no fact (it's blatantly wrong), and he didn't prove any of your points. yes i get it, u play sc and u have been a tl member longer than i have. ur oppinion is right, mine is wrong. don't waste ur time reading my posts i have no clue. u are the gods of RTS and ur idols are gosu no matter what they do, they can even please 10 woman at the same time. You`re not stating your opinion, but claiming some "facts", which are totaly wrong. which facts did i mention? did i give evidence for them to be called facts or might it be that it is indeed just my opinion? if i stated facts care about giving some evidence that they are wrong? Instead of proving you wrong, I`ll give you free advice : calm down, read the 10 commandments, cut the trolling and the sarcasm to mininum, dont be so emotinal and dont start useless arguments.
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Well people complaining about sc2 not being the same or almost the same as sc1, should just play sc1. iTcouLdbeWorsE actually has a point. People in sc1 memorized korean builds, copied them, and loose because they didnt think like them. Its like when flash said that his last build against P couldnt be copied just like that, because they are not him, the next minute there was a post of someone saying how you should play flash build, but ofcourse u cant do that, since they are not flash. And because they copy everything, they suck, because they stopped using their head.
Its the same here. They try to apply sc1 logic to sc2, even though its a very different game. Instead of creating and thinking, they do the same as in sc1, copying, just that it is even worse, beacuse they copy builds into a different game.
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On February 25 2010 22:40 Audiohelper123 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 22:36 BlackYoshi wrote: So you guys just want the Brood War AI? Got it.
Realize that you are a very small minority, and people just want their units to work when they click to attack another unit. Even today, "competitive" SC players are a minority compared to the people who play BGH games or 3v3s for fun.
You all need to realize you're a small niche market and that the improvements won't cater to you because a lot of the stuff you want really isn't enjoyable for the common user (the awful attacking/movement AI of units in SC, especially if they had to go up ramps, or how unintuitive it was to do a surround because of how bad the pathfinding was) You just want your units to do everything for you? Got it. Wc3 Path finding would do fine as well by the way Units not being to move up a ramp properly is what made the game much more strategic. Holding those high ground expos with a ramp was a big benefit because a small force could often times hold twice its size. Other than that nothing can be called awful. This just in - bad pathfinding equals strategic. It may be "strategic" to you, but to the vast majority of people who played SC1 (and no matter how "influential" you think you are, there are still far more casual BNet players, even today, than ICCUPers), it was frustrating because your unit would not do what you told it to.
Blizzard is in the impossible sequel situation of having to please everyones wildest expectations. It just happens that your expectation is you want a re-skinned Brood War. Brood War is great but it has many design limitations that are downright archaic such as the lack of multibuilding selection and a limit of only 12 unit hotkeys (these are not "strategic" or intentional, they are the limits of an 11 year old system and only serve to hinder the intuitiveness of the game).
You guys need to take off your TeamLiquid colored glasses sometimes and realize that you are really a small niche of the people who played and STILL play Brood War.
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Is there anyone with a tab of this page still open who can copy/paste this? The site has been down for quite a while now and I kinda wanna read this.
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However, from watching, I really think they need to add back in the 30% accuracy loss from shooting up hill. They say needing site is enough disadvantage, but when all you have to do is get 1-2 units up a ramp or just have a flying unit hover over it, it really negates any advantage from holding uphill terrain (which makes no sense in a military context)
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On February 25 2010 23:43 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 23:05 bendez wrote: Again, there is no "auto-surround" feature. Units know the most effective route to reach an enemy unit, and as a result, they surround the unit. You yourself said that you want units to know the shortest distance possible. In SC2, they did just that. Bendez glad that you heard about sc2- and came running over to this site to come and enjoy the beta. However- After reading through this entire thread I have come to the conclusion that you and many other 'new' members to the community are going to be frustrated with TL. the reason is simply this: You are a noobie to starcraft. I have seen so many players here not understand why starcraft is such a great game, and why so many people here on TL are very worried with the current state of the game. New members of our community need to try and understand that most people hear have played SC for years, and in the case of nazgul for decades. Please do not come into the community with assumed opinions about how an RTS should play. For the members of the community that have been playing starcraft for some time, they know far better than most what map control and unit positioning should play like. I am sorry but right now SC2 is a joke. Mechanically the game is not demanding, and you are completely incorrect to some how think that SC2 can be compared to SC1. SC2 is filled with easy buttons as far as i am concerned. There is no more micro, and macro is a one key press now. Any long term player of SC would not argue with me if I were to say that SC2 is: - Has limited micro capability - Is not mechanically demanding - Does not have the depth that SC enjoyed - Has poor excuses for APM sinks - Big battles are simply 1a2a3a, where any types of in battle decisions are negligible. Everything dies to quickly, or is too closely packed together- that your typical late game attacks are basically two blobs just attacking each other. - That Blizzard has made SC2 more casual (and has even been quoted as saying that they would like their mothers to be able to pick up and play the game) - We realize that the game will be more profitable if it is easy, so new players like yourself can easily and quickly start winning. However our community has a problem with this train of thought, because we had hoped that SC2 > SC1 however as every day passes that dream is slowly fading away. In short- SC2 is the super smash brothers brawl of SC1. (whereas SC1 is melee.) As a competitive melee player myself, brawl was a huge disappointment- and i fear that SC2 will be the same.
Sorry to hear that SC2 is no game for you but i think SC2 Players are just frustrated that their Skill isn´t needed 100% anymore. The old ways of makro, mikro and so on is gone. Just get it. BUT There are new forms of Mikro, Makro, strategical and so on. You are missing the depth? Man its a Beta, you didn´t see any depth in Sc1 before release at all. In every single Replay i see, there are HUGE Mikromistakes, bad scouting, strategical and even tactical Failure and senseless Deaths of Units.
- Has limited micro capability<----Even in Proreps, there are so many huge mistakes a wc3 Player could cry! - Is not mechanically demanding<----what you think its a strength was a huge weakness for me. Complicated mechanics to make the units do what you want them todo. Now its easier to make them do what you want. BUT you still need to give the orders to do so and only your Orders should matter in a strategical game - Does not have the depth that SC enjoyed<----Depth will develope in time. Right now you only see the Easiest way of Playing SC2 not the best. - Has poor excuses for APM sinks<----you need just enough to make the right orders. - Big battles are simply 1a2a3a, where any types of in battle decisions are negligible. Everything dies to quickly, or is too closely packed together- that your typical late game attacks are basically two blobs just attacking each other.<---- Yes for now, but i doubt it will stay like this. It will develope. - That Blizzard has made SC2 more casual (and has even been quoted as saying that they would like their mothers to be able to pick up and play the game)<---Easy to learn, hard to master. Thats the way it should be.
Until this game is played long enough and mistakes vanish you simply can´t tell anything yet. Maybe you are right, maybe you are wrong.But right now its only a guess nothing more.
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On February 25 2010 23:36 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 22:45 viletomato wrote: I see it as simply...
Easier Gameplay (Auto surround) ---> Caters to casual gamer 'Harder' Gameplay (No Auto surround) ---> Caters to the hardcore crowd
Casual gamer numbers > Hardcore gamer numbers So here is the contradiction that Blizzard faces... how can you cater to the hardcore and casual at the same time? You can't. You have to choose one or the other. UNLESS there is an option in game to switch autosurround on and off. But then you have a non-unified game and you have a divided community. I don't think that is something that Blizzard will implement.
At this time many people will say, since Blizzard wants to cater to the majority and make more $$ for the business they will cater to the casual gamer. To this I respond:
The popularity amongst hardcore gamers gives rise to the incentive that the casual gamers want to play the game and become hardcore. For example, some guy knowing nothing about sc sees jaedong on TV in korea and picks up the game because of the hardcore following. So I think catering to the Hardcore is very very important in attracting casual players to play the game. Think about how many noobs have watched pro korean players on youtube and picked up starcraft in the last 10 years. If there wasn't a pro following at all (based on crappy gameplay) you think any casual gamer would want to play the game past 2002ish? Heck no, it'll be forgotten just like all the other games that never stood the test of time.
So my thoughts are:
Catering to the Casual ---> Ensures an initial boom of players, Big bucks for the first 3-4 years and then a dying fanbase and $$ trails off. Catering to the Hardcore ---> Ensures the longevity of the game. Lets just assume initially not as many players will play comparing to catering to the casual, but will generate cash for blizz in form of TV and tournaments over the next 10 years. $$ comes in for a long amount of time.
I really think option 2 is the better choice.... no casual gamer is not going to play SC2 just because there is no autosurround... they don't follow it, they don't even know what it is.
I'm sure blizzard has thought about all these things, and have stuck with their decision.
BW falls into the harcore category and last time I checked its probably the most successful RTS ever made. S Of course you can cater to both hardcore and casual. You have to favor one slightly, but theres no reason that the 2 extremes are the only option. For example: Pathfinding improvement :Obviously ok, even for hardcore fans Multiple unit selection: fine, more appeasement for casual people but still viable. Auto surround: Now its ridiculous. Theres no reason casual gamers will stray away from the game because they don't have an AI doing all the micro themselves. Take improved battle AI away and you've appeased both sides. Easier to manage units, but microing skill is still there. One of the suggestions offered by a lot of ppl (and even some on teamliquid) was improve the macro mechanic even more by being able to press a button like alt and then a hotkey for a unit and have all gateways produce that unit. Does this not seem ridiculous? If you appease the casual crowd this much then the game just became your standard above average RTS. Nothing special, and certainly nothing that will attract pro gaming. I swear if they add this feature I'm never gonna play SC2 X_X. The point is Blizzard needs to find some middle ground because right now everythings just way too easy. I think the stance blizzard chooses needs to cater more to the hardcore gaming side because this is the sequel to SC1...you still need to remain true to its roots. Also is the server still not working for any1 else??? Brood War is the hardcore? Most of the people who still play BW are playing Big Game Hunter games, UMS, and other "casual" games. The ICCUP crowd is very small.
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On February 26 2010 01:15 BlackYoshi wrote: However, from watching, I really think they need to add back in the 30% accuracy loss from shooting up hill. They say needing site is enough disadvantage, but when all you have to do is get 1-2 units up a ramp or just have a flying unit hover over it, it really negates any advantage from holding uphill terrain (which makes no sense in a military context)
Oh man, a military inaccuracy in starcraft? Alert blizzard, this was supposed to be the most realistic war game ever.
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On February 26 2010 01:10 Samurai- wrote: Well people complaining about sc2 not being the same or almost the same as sc1, should just play sc1. iTcouLdbeWorsE actually has a point. People in sc1 memorized korean builds, copied them, and loose because they didnt think like them. Its like when flash said that his last build against P couldnt be copied just like that, because they are not him, the next minute there was a post of someone saying how you should play flash build, but ofcourse u cant do that, since they are not flash. And because they copy everything, they suck, because they stopped using their head.
Its the same here. They try to apply sc1 logic to sc2, even though its a very different game. Instead of creating and thinking, they do the same as in sc1, copying, just that it is even worse, beacuse they copy builds into a different game.
People copy strong builds until they gather enough knowledge and skills to improve those builds or create new, superior ones. That's perfectly reasonable.
People are using SC1 builds in SC2 because you have to start somewhere. If you just randomly put some stuff down you will suck just as much as you would if you follow an SC1 bo, just that with an actual bo in mind you have a plan and are not completely lost. If you followed the streams of some of the top platinum players (itcoulbeworse: that's why you are wrong), you would see that people have deviated from the pure SC1 builds and developed strong SC2 builds.
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site still down for me, are you guys actually able to read it? if so could you please post an image or copy+paste the interviews (or direct me to the page they're on if this has already been done)
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- Has limited micro capability - Big battles are simply 1a2a3a, where any types of in battle decisions are negligible. Everything dies to quickly, or is too closely packed together- that your typical late game attacks are basically two blobs just attacking each other. Do you seriously not bother to micro your units at all? Do you not focus fire individual units? Pull back and then re-engage with weakened units? Use your dropship to protect damaged units? Bait and then attack the enemy?
Auto-surround is simply a result of better pathfinding. It's the unit going "Oh, I can't attack that unit that I'm supposed to be so I'll go around". Sure, that's a very tiny bit of micro gone. In SC1, 3 zerglings could beat 1 zealot if microed properly and that same micro still applies in SC2 since 3 zerglings would, golly gosh, practically auto-surround in SC1 anyway.
- Is not mechanically demanding
It has the same mechanics as SC1 except they're streamlined. The noobs will still be terrible at the mechanics and end up massing 1k + minerals late game (as evidenced by a lot of streams and replays available) whereas the "pro" players will be spending their time perfectly.
- Does not have the depth that SC enjoyed - Has poor excuses for APM sinks
Lol.
- That Blizzard has made SC2 more casual (and has even been quoted as saying that they would like their mothers to be able to pick up and play the game) - We realize that the game will be more profitable if it is easy, so new players like yourself can easily and quickly start winning. However our community has a problem with this train of thought, because we had hoped that SC2 > SC1 however as every day passes that dream is slowly fading away.
Easier for casual players != more casual. Just because your average gamer can pick up and play it easier does not mean that they will suddenly become amazing at the game and a progamer. You won't see your mother playing SC2 in the proleagues and you know why? Because it's still a hard game to play properly
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On February 26 2010 01:17 BlackYoshi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 23:36 SubtleArt wrote:On February 25 2010 22:45 viletomato wrote: I see it as simply...
Easier Gameplay (Auto surround) ---> Caters to casual gamer 'Harder' Gameplay (No Auto surround) ---> Caters to the hardcore crowd
Casual gamer numbers > Hardcore gamer numbers So here is the contradiction that Blizzard faces... how can you cater to the hardcore and casual at the same time? You can't. You have to choose one or the other. UNLESS there is an option in game to switch autosurround on and off. But then you have a non-unified game and you have a divided community. I don't think that is something that Blizzard will implement.
At this time many people will say, since Blizzard wants to cater to the majority and make more $$ for the business they will cater to the casual gamer. To this I respond:
The popularity amongst hardcore gamers gives rise to the incentive that the casual gamers want to play the game and become hardcore. For example, some guy knowing nothing about sc sees jaedong on TV in korea and picks up the game because of the hardcore following. So I think catering to the Hardcore is very very important in attracting casual players to play the game. Think about how many noobs have watched pro korean players on youtube and picked up starcraft in the last 10 years. If there wasn't a pro following at all (based on crappy gameplay) you think any casual gamer would want to play the game past 2002ish? Heck no, it'll be forgotten just like all the other games that never stood the test of time.
So my thoughts are:
Catering to the Casual ---> Ensures an initial boom of players, Big bucks for the first 3-4 years and then a dying fanbase and $$ trails off. Catering to the Hardcore ---> Ensures the longevity of the game. Lets just assume initially not as many players will play comparing to catering to the casual, but will generate cash for blizz in form of TV and tournaments over the next 10 years. $$ comes in for a long amount of time.
I really think option 2 is the better choice.... no casual gamer is not going to play SC2 just because there is no autosurround... they don't follow it, they don't even know what it is.
I'm sure blizzard has thought about all these things, and have stuck with their decision.
BW falls into the harcore category and last time I checked its probably the most successful RTS ever made. S Of course you can cater to both hardcore and casual. You have to favor one slightly, but theres no reason that the 2 extremes are the only option. For example: Pathfinding improvement :Obviously ok, even for hardcore fans Multiple unit selection: fine, more appeasement for casual people but still viable. Auto surround: Now its ridiculous. Theres no reason casual gamers will stray away from the game because they don't have an AI doing all the micro themselves. Take improved battle AI away and you've appeased both sides. Easier to manage units, but microing skill is still there. One of the suggestions offered by a lot of ppl (and even some on teamliquid) was improve the macro mechanic even more by being able to press a button like alt and then a hotkey for a unit and have all gateways produce that unit. Does this not seem ridiculous? If you appease the casual crowd this much then the game just became your standard above average RTS. Nothing special, and certainly nothing that will attract pro gaming. I swear if they add this feature I'm never gonna play SC2 X_X. The point is Blizzard needs to find some middle ground because right now everythings just way too easy. I think the stance blizzard chooses needs to cater more to the hardcore gaming side because this is the sequel to SC1...you still need to remain true to its roots. Also is the server still not working for any1 else??? Brood War is the hardcore? Most of the people who still play BW are playing Big Game Hunter games, UMS, and other "casual" games. The ICCUP crowd is very small.
what about this crowd?
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On February 25 2010 23:53 FictionJV wrote: And what about the possibility of a promod.
Many other competitive games have done it in the past, quake, cod, etc. Basicly a mod that tweaks certain values for better balance, changes to things to allow for more skillfull play.
Blizzard could then introduce 20 new mothership type units, make everything easy, but the competitive community still has their "version" of the game for competitive play.
And things get balanced by the community then.
Problems that I see with this: I don't know if this would actually be possible with the map editor Not being able to play ranked games with it And ofcourse the things that have happened in the past with these kind of things, for example the cpma vs OSP type of stuff etc. This would do nothing but split the community, and ensure that very few people whose first Starcraft game is SC2 would join up, and then the game would stagnate and eventually die. IMO, when a community needs to alter the game to make it "competitive", it loses a lot of its appeal as a spectator game, because its no longer the game most of the spectators are familiar with and have played.
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On February 26 2010 01:11 BlackYoshi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 22:40 Audiohelper123 wrote:On February 25 2010 22:36 BlackYoshi wrote: So you guys just want the Brood War AI? Got it.
Realize that you are a very small minority, and people just want their units to work when they click to attack another unit. Even today, "competitive" SC players are a minority compared to the people who play BGH games or 3v3s for fun.
You all need to realize you're a small niche market and that the improvements won't cater to you because a lot of the stuff you want really isn't enjoyable for the common user (the awful attacking/movement AI of units in SC, especially if they had to go up ramps, or how unintuitive it was to do a surround because of how bad the pathfinding was) You just want your units to do everything for you? Got it. Wc3 Path finding would do fine as well by the way Units not being to move up a ramp properly is what made the game much more strategic. Holding those high ground expos with a ramp was a big benefit because a small force could often times hold twice its size. Other than that nothing can be called awful. This just in - bad pathfinding equals strategic. It may be "strategic" to you, but to the vast majority of people who played SC1 (and no matter how "influential" you think you are, there are still far more casual BNet players, even today, than ICCUPers), it was frustrating because your unit would not do what you told it to. Blizzard is in the impossible sequel situation of having to please everyones wildest expectations. It just happens that your expectation is you want a re-skinned Brood War. Brood War is great but it has many design limitations that are downright archaic such as the lack of multibuilding selection and a limit of only 12 unit hotkeys (these are not "strategic" or intentional, they are the limits of an 11 year old system and only serve to hinder the intuitiveness of the game). You guys need to take off your TeamLiquid colored glasses sometimes and realize that you are really a small niche of the people who played and STILL play Brood War.
We're mostly talking about micro issues here. Not saying multiple building selection or unlimited unit selection are bad. Read the comments before replying them please.
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Calgary25942 Posts
lol at people suggesting the unit ai be changed to inject micro, specifically nazgul. thats such a stupid mindset. i guarentee if the game is competitive there will be as much micro as brood war. i dont even have to play it to make this claim.
whenever anything 2 comes out, people complain how it's so much easier now, but in the end it requires more mechanical skill to play. this is true in almost every situation throughout history.
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On February 26 2010 01:04 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 00:52 Squallcloud wrote: If i may add something aren't you people thinking in BW rules while maybe you should think in SC2 rules?
Like in BW i can guess someone tought well my gling are dumb what can i do to increase their efficiency-> ok i can put them in this formation for a better attack surface.
In SC2 : well after 10 years of evolution Kerrigan made my gling with a bigger brain than before and they take the available surface to attack on their own what can i do to improve that? wow. You are the type of player blizz is catering too and it's just mind numbing how baseless your oppinions are I am so sad right now
What did i say?
Seemed to me like a reasonable tought. What's baseless?
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