|
On February 26 2010 02:10 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 02:06 Jimmeh wrote:On February 26 2010 02:03 SubtleArt wrote:On February 26 2010 01:46 Bane_ wrote:On February 26 2010 01:41 SubtleArt wrote:Much improved AI is the complaint about micro, yes. Also no1s saying the game sucks, just that the improvements make it too easy to micro, (and thus do not deem SC an esport), and ultimately too easy to have the same competitive atmosphere as BW How do we know this already though (the beta has been out a week...)? It may well be easier to play at a reasonably competitive level but there are still going to be ways for the top players to distance themselves from the crowd. Isn't it a little intuitive that the easier a game is to play the less distancing there is from pros? Running is easy but I don't see you in the Olympics. Because theres more to it than just move one foot forward and then the next. If you understood the technique, training, stamina, and physical conditioning required to compete at the olympics then you'd understand how hard it is to compete at that level and the dedication required.
I know that.
Now take what you just said and apply it to SC2.
|
On February 26 2010 02:07 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 02:02 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:On February 26 2010 01:10 Misrah wrote:On February 26 2010 00:56 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:On February 26 2010 00:44 spinesheath wrote:On February 26 2010 00:40 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:On February 26 2010 00:31 Misrah wrote:On February 26 2010 00:29 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:On February 25 2010 23:43 Misrah wrote:On February 25 2010 23:05 bendez wrote:
Again, there is no "auto-surround" feature. Units know the most effective route to reach an enemy unit, and as a result, they surround the unit. You yourself said that you want units to know the shortest distance possible. In SC2, they did just that. Bendez glad that you heard about sc2- and came running over to this site to come and enjoy the beta. However- After reading through this entire thread I have come to the conclusion that you and many other 'new' members to the community are going to be frustrated with TL. the reason is simply this: You are a noobie to starcraft. I have seen so many players here not understand why starcraft is such a great game, and why so many people here on TL are very worried with the current state of the game. New members of our community need to try and understand that most people hear have played SC for years, and in the case of nazgul for decades. Please do not come into the community Hey kimberly, I am just writing this to you wondering when you would like to meet to work on our presentation. Feel free to give me a call anytime At 19202464963 hope to hear from you soon Ben For the members of the community that have been playing starcraft for some time, they know far better than most what map control and unit positioning should play like. Glad to see your begining to understand. And yes I am 100 percent serious. I don't think you know anything. And considering you probably have not played a true game of Starcraft in quite some time your opinions are out dated. I am sorry but right now SC2 is a joke. Mechanically the game is not demanding, and you are completely incorrect to some how think that SC2 can be compared to SC1. SC2 is filled with easy buttons as far as i am concerned. There is no more micro, and macro is a one key press now. Any long term player of SC would not argue with me if I were to say that SC2 is: - Has limited micro capability - Is not mechanically demanding - Does not have the depth that SC enjoyed - Has poor excuses for APM sinks - Big battles are simply 1a2a3a, where any types of in battle decisions are negligible. Everything dies to quickly, or is too closely packed together- that your typical late game attacks are basically two blobs just attacking each other. - That Blizzard has made SC2 more casual (and has even been quoted as saying that they would like their mothers to be able to pick up and play the game) - We realize that the game will be more profitable if it is easy, so new players like yourself can easily and quickly start winning. However our community has a problem with this train of thought, because we had hoped that SC2 > SC1 however as every day passes that dream is slowly fading away. In short- SC2 is the super smash brothers brawl of SC1. (whereas SC1 is melee.) As a competitive melee player myself, brawl was a huge disappointment- and i fear that SC2 will be the same. u certainly have a point. but ur wrong too. u say sc2 is easier then sc1 and it is not as demanding and so on perhaps ur right and it is a little easier in general but fact is that 80% of the sc1 progamers ive seen playing so far just plain suck at sc2. I stopped reading here.and i couldnt believe it when i first saw it. ret for example one of the best foreigner players in sc1, he even went to korea to train there, plays sc2 like a total nooby fact is learning sc:bw and becoming good at it is nothing compared to mastering a new game. atm sc2 is not easier to play than sc. it might be in 10years, namely when there is as much "data" as there is about sc:bw. what happens is a shift of the skills required. u can no longer read all guides, hammer them into ur head like a machine, get required apm and fkn pwn. too many sc players think they are the gods of RTS gamers. infact nobody knows more about their game as sc players do but that is only natural cause sc is the game that has been around the longest. players from all other RTS games currently play on an equal or even higher lvl then the sc players. do u know why? because most sc players have forgotten what an RTS is all about. its not only about APM, macro, micro. only SC is it in his current state because the stategical part has evolved over the years to a point where there is not much that will change. and that is why many sc players fkn suck at sc2 until they remember how to use their head again. when i see a terra whine about stealthed units because he has no detection and on the other hand he is proud how he didnt miss a single mule dropdown, i can do nothing expect to shake my head in disbelieve. GJ u macroed perfectly but how about using ur head and fkn scan instead of getting +270 minerals and lose to invis units??? if u want macro, micro and apm go on continue to play SC u might be right that it is more demanding in that particular part but stop posting shit like sc2 is easier then sc it rly annoys the hell out of me ps: frustration of not having a beta key yet may have caused generel aggresive tone in my speech and is not to be taken personaly Not wasting me time. u are so proving on of my points... its a fact dude just get over it. i didnt say it might not change with the time. but watch a replay of ret, kolll etc and if u say: "wow he did play good", i allow u to call my post "time wasting" It's no fact (it's blatantly wrong), and he didn't prove any of your points. yes i get it, u play sc and u have been a tl member longer than i have. ur oppinion is right, mine is wrong. don't waste ur time reading my posts i have no clue. u are the gods of RTS and ur idols are gosu no matter what they do, they can even please 10 woman at the same time. Glad you are starting to understand. I don't care what you have to say because you do not understand sc. Then you make baseless opinions about me And tl when you probably just found this site today. Yes I am 100 percent serious. the thing is ur jumping to conlusions. u say i dont understand sc which is totaly not true. i didnt stumble across this site yesterday. i just didnt bother posting/registering because i didnt play sc much myself. i however followed the sc pro scene, watched vods, read strategic guides and so on for at least 5 years. on the other hand i have nearly 10 years of experience in playing RTS games competetive, be it sc (as mentioned not much), wc3, dow1/2, c&n series, btfm the list goes on. u sir are just a sad because u judge people without knowing them. i don't know u too, but did i ignore ur posts or opinion? no, i read them and said i think u are wrong. perhaps the way i did so wasn't the nicest but sure its better then what u are doing. so get off ur horse. so you have zero sc experience and you admit it. Also no other rts does not make you an expert. Sc is not an rts. It is the best. It is art. It has a pro league for 10 plus years. Nothing else compares.
i don't have zero sc experience. also playing only sc doesnt make u an expert. and i am curious on what level u play starcraft. so care to tell me?
|
On February 26 2010 02:11 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 02:10 SubtleArt wrote:On February 26 2010 02:06 Jimmeh wrote:On February 26 2010 02:03 SubtleArt wrote:On February 26 2010 01:46 Bane_ wrote:On February 26 2010 01:41 SubtleArt wrote:Much improved AI is the complaint about micro, yes. Also no1s saying the game sucks, just that the improvements make it too easy to micro, (and thus do not deem SC an esport), and ultimately too easy to have the same competitive atmosphere as BW How do we know this already though (the beta has been out a week...)? It may well be easier to play at a reasonably competitive level but there are still going to be ways for the top players to distance themselves from the crowd. Isn't it a little intuitive that the easier a game is to play the less distancing there is from pros? Running is easy but I don't see you in the Olympics. Because theres more to it than just move one foot forward and then the next. If you understood the technique, training, stamina, and physical conditioning required to compete at the olympics then you'd understand how hard it is to compete at that level and the dedication required. I know that. Now take what you just said and apply it to SC2.
Done. Macro and micro have become too easy, taking away the work and dedication required. Just remember that steroids are banned in the olympics 
|
On February 26 2010 02:14 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 02:11 Jimmeh wrote:On February 26 2010 02:10 SubtleArt wrote:On February 26 2010 02:06 Jimmeh wrote:On February 26 2010 02:03 SubtleArt wrote:On February 26 2010 01:46 Bane_ wrote:On February 26 2010 01:41 SubtleArt wrote:Much improved AI is the complaint about micro, yes. Also no1s saying the game sucks, just that the improvements make it too easy to micro, (and thus do not deem SC an esport), and ultimately too easy to have the same competitive atmosphere as BW How do we know this already though (the beta has been out a week...)? It may well be easier to play at a reasonably competitive level but there are still going to be ways for the top players to distance themselves from the crowd. Isn't it a little intuitive that the easier a game is to play the less distancing there is from pros? Running is easy but I don't see you in the Olympics. Because theres more to it than just move one foot forward and then the next. If you understood the technique, training, stamina, and physical conditioning required to compete at the olympics then you'd understand how hard it is to compete at that level and the dedication required. I know that. Now take what you just said and apply it to SC2. Done. Macro and micro have become too easy, taking away the work and dedication required. Just remember that steroids are banned in the olympics
To continue with the shitty comparisons - does it make easier to compete in olympics if steroids get allowed (and everybody uses them naturally)?
|
This thread looks like a cool trap to purge the Sc2 forums
|
On February 26 2010 02:18 JohannesH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 02:14 SubtleArt wrote:On February 26 2010 02:11 Jimmeh wrote:On February 26 2010 02:10 SubtleArt wrote:On February 26 2010 02:06 Jimmeh wrote:On February 26 2010 02:03 SubtleArt wrote:On February 26 2010 01:46 Bane_ wrote:On February 26 2010 01:41 SubtleArt wrote:Much improved AI is the complaint about micro, yes. Also no1s saying the game sucks, just that the improvements make it too easy to micro, (and thus do not deem SC an esport), and ultimately too easy to have the same competitive atmosphere as BW How do we know this already though (the beta has been out a week...)? It may well be easier to play at a reasonably competitive level but there are still going to be ways for the top players to distance themselves from the crowd. Isn't it a little intuitive that the easier a game is to play the less distancing there is from pros? Running is easy but I don't see you in the Olympics. Because theres more to it than just move one foot forward and then the next. If you understood the technique, training, stamina, and physical conditioning required to compete at the olympics then you'd understand how hard it is to compete at that level and the dedication required. I know that. Now take what you just said and apply it to SC2. Done. Macro and micro have become too easy, taking away the work and dedication required. Just remember that steroids are banned in the olympics To continue with the shitty comparisons - does it make easier to compete in olympics if steroids get allowed (and everybody uses them naturally)?
Of course it does. Theres only so fast some1 can run and it lowers the commitment needed from the individual (although that limit might be slightly higher). Even with how hard SC is, the games pretty mch figured out. Even players like Flash are barely distinguishable from every1 else in terms of mechanics (flash even said so himself). With MBS that skill ceiling is going to come so much faster. This is all getting off topic though. Easier game --> not as competitive. It takes an idiot not to realize this
|
the more and more i look into and hear about SC2... The less i want to buy it.... i hope they fix these problems... i wish they would have pro gamers help them make some of these games and get their input while they are building the game rather than after.
|
|
|
On February 26 2010 02:29 ArchoN[VenoM] wrote:
the more and more i look into and hear about SC2... The less i want to buy it.... i hope they fix these problems... i wish they would have pro gamers help them make some of these games and get their input while they are building the game rather than after.
They did have pro gamers on staff helping them make the game. Either they didn't listen to the pro gamers or the pro gamers didn't say "don't do this to micro."
|
What they need to work on is bnet 2.0 and the terrible lag it has. Seriously, just steal HoN's server interface. It's a lot better than bnet 2.0.
There's been times where I'm thinking, "wow I could do some really cool shit with my units"
and then bnet 2.0 gets up in my face and says "rofl j/k here's some delay on every single action you take noob". It makes you feel like you're watching your game rather than being right in there playing it, in a sense.
|
Would someone PLEASE copy/paste these interviews  I woke up like 7 hours ago and the site has been down the whole time. With 13 pages of arguing back and forth I refuse to believe that not one of you still has a tab open with all of it still there.
|
On February 26 2010 02:32 MYM.Testie wrote:
What they need to work on is bnet 2.0 and the terrible lag it has. Seriously, just steal HoN's server interface. It's a lot better than bnet 2.0.
There's been times where I'm thinking, "wow I could do some really cool shit with my units"
and then bnet 2.0 gets up in my face and says "rofl j/k here's some delay on every single action you take noob". It makes you feel like you're watching your game rather than being right in there playing it, in a sense.
Interesting. Day[9] was praising the netcode on his daily show the other night and I haven't heard this complaint from anywhere else
|
the thing is ur jumping to conlusions.
u say i dont understand sc which is totaly not true. i didnt stumble across this site yesterday. i just didnt bother posting/registering because i didnt play sc much myself. i however followed the sc pro scene, watched vods, read strategic guides and so on for at least 5 years.
Still wondering how you can possibly argue with me about staracraft when you don't play the game lol logically you have no platform with which to argue from. you have zero experience and zero data to back up your claims. You just talk too much.
On February 26 2010 02:12 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 02:07 Misrah wrote:On February 26 2010 02:02 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:On February 26 2010 01:10 Misrah wrote:On February 26 2010 00:56 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:On February 26 2010 00:44 spinesheath wrote:On February 26 2010 00:40 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:On February 26 2010 00:31 Misrah wrote:On February 26 2010 00:29 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:On February 25 2010 23:43 Misrah wrote:
[quote]
Bendez glad that you heard about sc2- and came running over to this site to come and enjoy the beta. However-
After reading through this entire thread I have come to the conclusion that you and many other 'new' members to the community are going to be frustrated with TL. the reason is simply this: You are a noobie to starcraft. I have seen so many players here not understand why starcraft is such a great game, and why so many people here on TL are very worried with the current state of the game. New members of our community need to try and understand that most people hear have played SC for years, and in the case of nazgul for decades. Please do not come into the community Hey kimberly, I am just writing this to you wondering when you would like to meet to work on our presentation. Feel free to give me a call anytime At 19202464963
hope to hear from you soon
Ben For the members of the community that have been playing starcraft for some time, they know far better than most what map control and unit positioning should play like.
Glad to see your begining to understand. And yes I am 100 percent serious. I don't think you know anything. And considering you probably have not played a true game of Starcraft in quite some time your opinions are out dated.
I am sorry but right now SC2 is a joke. Mechanically the game is not demanding, and you are completely incorrect to some how think that SC2 can be compared to SC1. SC2 is filled with easy buttons as far as i am concerned. There is no more micro, and macro is a one key press now. Any long term player of SC would not argue with me if I were to say that SC2 is:
- Has limited micro capability
- Is not mechanically demanding
- Does not have the depth that SC enjoyed
- Has poor excuses for APM sinks
- Big battles are simply 1a2a3a, where any types of in battle decisions are negligible. Everything dies to quickly, or is too closely packed together- that your typical late game attacks are basically two blobs just attacking each other.
- That Blizzard has made SC2 more casual (and has even been quoted as saying that they would like their mothers to be able to pick up and play the game)
- We realize that the game will be more profitable if it is easy, so new players like yourself can easily and quickly start winning. However our community has a problem with this train of thought, because we had hoped that SC2 > SC1 however as every day passes that dream is slowly fading away.
In short- SC2 is the super smash brothers brawl of SC1. (whereas SC1 is melee.) As a competitive melee player myself, brawl was a huge disappointment- and i fear that SC2 will be the same. u certainly have a point. but ur wrong too. u say sc2 is easier then sc1 and it is not as demanding and so on perhaps ur right and it is a little easier in general but fact is that 80% of the sc1 progamers ive seen playing so far just plain suck at sc2. I stopped reading here.and i couldnt believe it when i first saw it. ret for example one of the best foreigner players in sc1, he even went to korea to train there, plays sc2 like a total nooby fact is learning sc:bw and becoming good at it is nothing compared to mastering a new game. atm sc2 is not easier to play than sc. it might be in 10years, namely when there is as much "data" as there is about sc:bw. what happens is a shift of the skills required. u can no longer read all guides, hammer them into ur head like a machine, get required apm and fkn pwn. too many sc players think they are the gods of RTS gamers. infact nobody knows more about their game as sc players do but that is only natural cause sc is the game that has been around the longest. players from all other RTS games currently play on an equal or even higher lvl then the sc players. do u know why? because most sc players have forgotten what an RTS is all about. its not only about APM, macro, micro. only SC is it in his current state because the stategical part has evolved over the years to a point where there is not much that will change. and that is why many sc players fkn suck at sc2 until they remember how to use their head again. when i see a terra whine about stealthed units because he has no detection and on the other hand he is proud how he didnt miss a single mule dropdown, i can do nothing expect to shake my head in disbelieve. GJ u macroed perfectly but how about using ur head and fkn scan instead of getting +270 minerals and lose to invis units??? if u want macro, micro and apm go on continue to play SC u might be right that it is more demanding in that particular part but stop posting shit like sc2 is easier then sc it rly annoys the hell out of me ps: frustration of not having a beta key yet may have caused generel aggresive tone in my speech and is not to be taken personaly Not wasting me time. u are so proving on of my points... its a fact dude just get over it. i didnt say it might not change with the time. but watch a replay of ret, kolll etc and if u say: "wow he did play good", i allow u to call my post "time wasting" It's no fact (it's blatantly wrong), and he didn't prove any of your points. yes i get it, u play sc and u have been a tl member longer than i have. ur oppinion is right, mine is wrong. don't waste ur time reading my posts i have no clue. u are the gods of RTS and ur idols are gosu no matter what they do, they can even please 10 woman at the same time. Glad you are starting to understand. I don't care what you have to say because you do not understand sc. Then you make baseless opinions about me And tl when you probably just found this site today. Yes I am 100 percent serious. the thing is ur jumping to conlusions. u say i dont understand sc which is totaly not true. i didnt stumble across this site yesterday. i just didnt bother posting/registering because i didnt play sc much myself. i however followed the sc pro scene, watched vods, read strategic guides and so on for at least 5 years. on the other hand i have nearly 10 years of experience in playing RTS games competetive, be it sc (as mentioned not much), wc3, dow1/2, c&n series, btfm the list goes on. u sir are just a sad because u judge people without knowing them. i don't know u too, but did i ignore ur posts or opinion? no, i read them and said i think u are wrong. perhaps the way i did so wasn't the nicest but sure its better then what u are doing. so get off ur horse. so you have zero sc experience and you admit it. Also no other rts does not make you an expert. Sc is not an rts. It is the best. It is art. It has a pro league for 10 plus years. Nothing else compares. i don't have zero sc experience. also playing only sc doesnt make u an expert. and i am curious on what level u play starcraft. so care to tell me?
I am a C+/C level zerg on Icup. My record currently is C at 30-12 on the ladder. I have been playing starcarft for 12 years, competitive for 2. and yes, playing SC makes me far more knowledgeable than you when it comes to discussing SC1 and SC2
How does that not compute?
|
I really want to read these interviews.
|
On February 26 2010 02:34 theqat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 02:32 MYM.Testie wrote:
What they need to work on is bnet 2.0 and the terrible lag it has. Seriously, just steal HoN's server interface. It's a lot better than bnet 2.0.
There's been times where I'm thinking, "wow I could do some really cool shit with my units"
and then bnet 2.0 gets up in my face and says "rofl j/k here's some delay on every single action you take noob". It makes you feel like you're watching your game rather than being right in there playing it, in a sense. Interesting. Day[9] was praising the netcode on his daily show the other night and I haven't heard this complaint from anywhere else
Testie is the first guy to complain about bad responsiveness..Intresting.
|
I'm curious as to what the argument over 'auto-surround' comes from. Exactly what units are 'auto-surrounding'? Right now the only unit I've noticed that comes close to this is zergling/speedlings. Every other unit that came from SC1 behaves similarly to how they did in SC1, minus things like stacking.
Could this be simply a zergling problem and not an 'auto-surround' problem?
|
On February 26 2010 02:38 Holgerius wrote:I really want to read these interviews.
seconded!! When are they ever going to come back? I want to hear what louder and chill have to say!!!!
|
On February 26 2010 02:34 theqat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 02:32 MYM.Testie wrote:
What they need to work on is bnet 2.0 and the terrible lag it has. Seriously, just steal HoN's server interface. It's a lot better than bnet 2.0.
There's been times where I'm thinking, "wow I could do some really cool shit with my units"
and then bnet 2.0 gets up in my face and says "rofl j/k here's some delay on every single action you take noob". It makes you feel like you're watching your game rather than being right in there playing it, in a sense. Interesting. Day[9] was praising the netcode on his daily show the other night and I haven't heard this complaint from anywhere else
Day[9] should go play a game of HoN and then go back to SC on bnet 2.0. In HoN, it is pretty much like playing on lan. Even if it says you have 150 MS to server. All actions done are instant.
In comparison, there is a massive delay that makes the user have to get used to the delay to perform micro as they want it. And it still won't be as they want it.
|
On February 26 2010 02:38 Senx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 02:34 theqat wrote:On February 26 2010 02:32 MYM.Testie wrote:
What they need to work on is bnet 2.0 and the terrible lag it has. Seriously, just steal HoN's server interface. It's a lot better than bnet 2.0.
There's been times where I'm thinking, "wow I could do some really cool shit with my units"
and then bnet 2.0 gets up in my face and says "rofl j/k here's some delay on every single action you take noob". It makes you feel like you're watching your game rather than being right in there playing it, in a sense. Interesting. Day[9] was praising the netcode on his daily show the other night and I haven't heard this complaint from anywhere else Testie is the first guy to complain about bad responsiveness..Intresting.
I also have what feels like 250ms delay, havent made me go "fuckin ARGH" yet, but im sure it will in the future.
|
On February 26 2010 02:38 Senx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 02:34 theqat wrote:On February 26 2010 02:32 MYM.Testie wrote:
What they need to work on is bnet 2.0 and the terrible lag it has. Seriously, just steal HoN's server interface. It's a lot better than bnet 2.0.
There's been times where I'm thinking, "wow I could do some really cool shit with my units"
and then bnet 2.0 gets up in my face and says "rofl j/k here's some delay on every single action you take noob". It makes you feel like you're watching your game rather than being right in there playing it, in a sense. Interesting. Day[9] was praising the netcode on his daily show the other night and I haven't heard this complaint from anywhere else Testie is the first guy to complain about bad responsiveness..Intresting.
I noticed the same when I played it. Everything just seemed to react slow
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
