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On February 26 2010 00:29 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 25 2010 23:43 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 23:05 bendez wrote:
Again, there is no "auto-surround" feature. Units know the most effective route to reach an enemy unit, and as a result, they surround the unit. You yourself said that you want units to know the shortest distance possible. In SC2, they did just that. Bendez glad that you heard about sc2- and came running over to this site to come and enjoy the beta. However- After reading through this entire thread I have come to the conclusion that you and many other 'new' members to the community are going to be frustrated with TL. the reason is simply this: You are a noobie to starcraft. I have seen so many players here not understand why starcraft is such a great game, and why so many people here on TL are very worried with the current state of the game. New members of our community need to try and understand that most people hear have played SC for years, and in the case of nazgul for decades. Please do not come into the community with assumed opinions about how an RTS should play. For the members of the community that have been playing starcraft for some time, they know far better than most what map control and unit positioning should play like. I am sorry but right now SC2 is a joke. Mechanically the game is not demanding, and you are completely incorrect to some how think that SC2 can be compared to SC1. SC2 is filled with easy buttons as far as i am concerned. There is no more micro, and macro is a one key press now. Any long term player of SC would not argue with me if I were to say that SC2 is: - Has limited micro capability - Is not mechanically demanding - Does not have the depth that SC enjoyed - Has poor excuses for APM sinks - Big battles are simply 1a2a3a, where any types of in battle decisions are negligible. Everything dies to quickly, or is too closely packed together- that your typical late game attacks are basically two blobs just attacking each other. - That Blizzard has made SC2 more casual (and has even been quoted as saying that they would like their mothers to be able to pick up and play the game) - We realize that the game will be more profitable if it is easy, so new players like yourself can easily and quickly start winning. However our community has a problem with this train of thought, because we had hoped that SC2 > SC1 however as every day passes that dream is slowly fading away. In short- SC2 is the super smash brothers brawl of SC1. (whereas SC1 is melee.) As a competitive melee player myself, brawl was a huge disappointment- and i fear that SC2 will be the same. u certainly have a point. but ur wrong too. u say sc2 is easier then sc1 and it is not as demanding and so on perhaps ur right and it is a little easier in general but fact is that 80% of the sc1 progamers ive seen playing so far just plain suck at sc2. and i couldnt believe it when i first saw it. ret for example one of the best foreigner players in sc1, he even went to korea to train there, plays sc2 like a total nooby fact is learning sc:bw and becoming good at it is nothing compared to mastering a new game. atm sc2 is not easier to play than sc. it might be in 10years, namely when there is as much "data" as there is about sc:bw. what happens is a shift of the skills required. u can no longer read all guides, hammer them into ur head like a machine, get required apm and fkn pwn. too many sc players think they are the gods of RTS gamers. infact nobody knows more about their game as sc players do but that is only natural cause sc is the game that has been around the longest. players from all other RTS games currently play on an equal or even higher lvl then the sc players. do u know why? because most sc players have forgotten what an RTS is all about. its not only about APM, macro, micro. only SC is it in his current state because the stategical part has evolved over the years to a point where there is not much that will change. and that is why many sc players fkn suck at sc2 until they remember how to use their head again. when i see a terra whine about stealthed units because he has no detection and on the other hand he is proud how he didnt miss a single mule dropdown, i can do nothing expect to shake my head in disbelieve. GJ u macroed perfectly but how about using ur head and fkn scan instead of getting +270 minerals and lose to invis units??? if u want macro, micro and apm go on continue to play SC u might be right that it is more demanding in that particular part but stop posting shit like sc2 is easier then sc it rly annoys the hell out of me ps: frustration of not having a beta key yet may have caused generel aggresive tone in my speech and is not to be taken personaly
I read through your posts, but I can't say I agree. The worry is that there won't be enough of a skill gap between different levels of players to make sc2 the competitive game many of us hope it will be. You point out that the absence of demanding micro/macro might make for a game which favors good decisions (and perhabs creativity?), but I don't see how this can be enough in a game where info is so easily avaiable through replays/streams/vods etc. A standard way of playing will develop, and even though it will change through innovative play again and again the majority of succeses will most likely stem from superior performances of already well-known strategies. The question remains whether performing these strategies is demanding enough to really sort the wheat from the chaff.
And while I do understand what you are getting at when you say that the "sc2 is easy" statement is a bit premature I don't agree with your use of "easy". You seem to think that the accumulated knowledge of sc1 makes it an easier game - but it only hightens the bar making the competition og the highest level even more demanding in absolut measures, and perhabs also in relative. A new rts, which is new to the whole field of players, might very well feel easy competitively since the oppositions is as untrained as you. "Easy" and "well understood"/"solved" are not synonyms.
And lastly, I don't believe it's true that sc players are worse off than any other rts players in sc2 beta if you factor in the total amount of players from the respective rts communities.
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On February 26 2010 03:02 BlackYoshi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 01:57 Misrah wrote:On February 26 2010 01:46 Bane_ wrote:On February 26 2010 01:41 SubtleArt wrote:Much improved AI is the complaint about micro, yes. Also no1s saying the game sucks, just that the improvements make it too easy to micro, (and thus do not deem SC an esport), and ultimately too easy to have the same competitive atmosphere as BW How do we know this already though (the beta has been out a week...)? It may well be easier to play at a reasonably competitive level but there are still going to be ways for the top players to distance themselves from the crowd. they can not distance themselves when a game is so easy to play. I mean MBS and automine coupled with improved ai means that everyone will be playing perfect Starcraft with like 150apm lol Good; its a strategy game, the defining thing should be tactics and strategy, not how much you can practice (which pushed out the old Korean pros) and burns out all the current pros. They practice 8-12 hours a day, and many retire in the mid 20s. Its just not good for the "strategy". I think most Koreans will agree that Starcraft was more exciting in the days of Oov, Nal Ra, Boxer, and such when the game was more dynamic, less set-in stone, and unorthodox strategies could work on surprise factor alone, and the television ratings and crowds back that up.
It's impossible to create a game that's about strategy that people want to watch. All sports and games involve strategy but it's just one part of the game.
The strategy can be pretty easy or very complicated. If it's easy observers can understand and enjoy it, but at the same time you need something more then strategy to make it interesting. You need speed and skill. If the strategy is very complicated(chess), no one wants to watch it because they can't understand the strategy and therfore cannot enjoy it.
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So... How should the pathing be changed then, to make micro interesting.
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My post count is low so everyone will think I'm new 
Then again I've only been registered for a little less than a year, but I've been lurking for a long time ;_;
In any case, can choboPEon update the links on his post or add a transcript?
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On February 26 2010 03:16 JohannesH wrote:
So... How should the pathing be changed then, to make micro interesting.
Units should only be able to move 1 matrix with every move command because otherwise it's too easy.
Make units only attack once per attack command.
To build a unit, you have to press the build button at least once every 5 seconds, otherwise the unit gets cancelled. Because, you know, otherwise macro would be too easy.
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Maybe morons who focus on post count should focus on arguments instead. I have been playing Sc since day one and also War2 and War1. You still have more posts then me, good for you!
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I am sure this will never be replied to, but micro can also be VERY different that what you guys are bitching about.
I have yet seen a reply where a player has attacked 3 or more places at once on the map at the same time. Hell most of the time its rare to see a player attack 2 places at a time. All to common is one army vs another. I believe to be successful in SC2 you will need to take advantage of all the mobility the races have and attack at multiple places at the same time.
A few examples..
T - 2 dropships full of rines in the main, main army at the front door expo and meanwhile a pair of ghosts nuking another expo.
Z - Muta harass on the front lines, while a nydus pops up in the rear.
There is your true skills in this game.
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On February 26 2010 03:22 Tiamat wrote:
I am sure this will never be replied to, but micro can also be VERY different that what you guys are bitching about.
I have yet seen a reply where a player has attacked 3 or more places at once on the map at the same time. Hell most of the time its rare to see a player attack 2 places at a time. All to common is one army vs another. I believe to be successful in SC2 you will need to take advantage of all the mobility the races have and attack at multiple places at the same time.
A few examples..
T - 2 dropships full of rines in the main, main army at the front door expo and meanwhile a pair of ghosts nuking another expo.
Z - Muta harass on the front lines, while a nydus pops up in the rear.
There is your true skills in this game.
Yes it can be so different that it's no longer micro.
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can someone mirror these interviews? I'd really like to read them, and the site's been down for days
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On February 26 2010 03:21 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 03:16 JohannesH wrote:
So... How should the pathing be changed then, to make micro interesting. Units should only be able to move 1 matrix with every move command because otherwise it's too easy. Make units only attack once per attack command. To build a unit, you have to press the build button at least once every 5 seconds, otherwise the unit gets cancelled. Because, you know, otherwise macro would be too easy.
Thanks for conceding in our argument.
To JohannesH: Something simple like decrease pathfinding AI a bit or making the unit motions slightly more random and less uniform
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On February 26 2010 03:22 Tiamat wrote:
I am sure this will never be replied to, but micro can also be VERY different that what you guys are bitching about.
I have yet seen a reply where a player has attacked 3 or more places at once on the map at the same time. Hell most of the time its rare to see a player attack 2 places at a time. All to common is one army vs another. I believe to be successful in SC2 you will need to take advantage of all the mobility the races have and attack at multiple places at the same time.
A few examples..
T - 2 dropships full of rines in the main, main army at the front door expo and meanwhile a pair of ghosts nuking another expo.
Z - Muta harass on the front lines, while a nydus pops up in the rear.
There is your true skills in this game.
A divided army is generally a shitty army. The harass everywhere style was generally how zerg played. If toss or terran did it their armies would get raped. No1 knows exactly how each race is supposed to function yet but I guess you can make these multiple attack strats part of your experimentation. Its beta after all 
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On February 26 2010 03:24 MultiMarine wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 03:22 Tiamat wrote:
I am sure this will never be replied to, but micro can also be VERY different that what you guys are bitching about.
I have yet seen a reply where a player has attacked 3 or more places at once on the map at the same time. Hell most of the time its rare to see a player attack 2 places at a time. All to common is one army vs another. I believe to be successful in SC2 you will need to take advantage of all the mobility the races have and attack at multiple places at the same time.
A few examples..
T - 2 dropships full of rines in the main, main army at the front door expo and meanwhile a pair of ghosts nuking another expo.
Z - Muta harass on the front lines, while a nydus pops up in the rear.
There is your true skills in this game. Yes it can be so different that it's no longer micro.
what the hell are you talking about?
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On February 26 2010 03:25 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 03:21 Jimmeh wrote:On February 26 2010 03:16 JohannesH wrote:
So... How should the pathing be changed then, to make micro interesting. Units should only be able to move 1 matrix with every move command because otherwise it's too easy. Make units only attack once per attack command. To build a unit, you have to press the build button at least once every 5 seconds, otherwise the unit gets cancelled. Because, you know, otherwise macro would be too easy. Thanks for conceding in our argument. To JohannesH: Something simple like decrease pathfinding AI a bit or making the unit motions slightly more random and less uniform
If it was up to you guys every unit would have to be directly managed completely. Even the probes mining, if you don't right click to tell them to mine EVERY SINGLE TIME then the skill celing's too low and every noob can become a progamer.
Have you ever played WC3? The unit AI in that was pretty damn good, about as good as SC2, yet not everyone became a "progamer" because there's more to playing then just "LOL AUTO-SURROUND I WIN"
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First post here, Ill just give my view as a "casual" gamer.
First off, when I first heard of all these new macro mechanics, many thought it would lower the talent level. Well I to an extent disagree, I believe that also raised the celing. You cant tell me if Jaedong and I had 5 minutes to create as many zerglings as possible that Jaedong wont win that by a landslide. But Me being a long time BW player will be able to out macro a newer player that is trying it for the first time.
Now when it comes to micro I feel the same way. In BW progamers got the most out of their units, Usually they made it so the AI wasnt so bad, I just feel that with smarter AI will just come with harder micro. Also its only a week in, for all we know the fixes in balance will make micro work. We will figure out new micro techniques.
Basically
With it being easier should create better players. Micro wont be the same probably ever. But new mechanics will come in. Also I havent read up so I might of missed something but yea.
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 26 2010 03:34 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 03:25 SubtleArt wrote:On February 26 2010 03:21 Jimmeh wrote:On February 26 2010 03:16 JohannesH wrote:
So... How should the pathing be changed then, to make micro interesting. Units should only be able to move 1 matrix with every move command because otherwise it's too easy. Make units only attack once per attack command. To build a unit, you have to press the build button at least once every 5 seconds, otherwise the unit gets cancelled. Because, you know, otherwise macro would be too easy. Thanks for conceding in our argument. To JohannesH: Something simple like decrease pathfinding AI a bit or making the unit motions slightly more random and less uniform If it was up to you guys every unit would have to be directly managed completely. Even the probes mining, if you don't right click to tell them to mine EVERY SINGLE TIME then the skill celing's too low and every noob can become a progamer. Have you ever played WC3? The unit AI in that was pretty damn good, about as good as SC2, yet not everyone became a "progamer" because there's more to playing then just "LOL AUTO-SURROUND I WIN"
Theres a reason it never became anything close to BW too. Not as challenging (the macro aspect just isnt there).
Also no1 is complaining about probes mining so stop hyperbolizing cause it just makes your argument look stupid.
+ Show Spoiler +On February 26 2010 03:35 Chained wrote:
First post here, Ill just give my view as a "casual" gamer.
First off, when I first heard of all these new macro mechanics, many thought it would lower the talent level. Well I to an extent disagree, I believe that also raised the celing. You cant tell me if Jaedong and I had 5 minutes to create as many zerglings as possible that Jaedong wont win that by a landslide. But Me being a long time BW player will be able to out macro a newer player that is trying it for the first time.
Now when it comes to micro I feel the same way. In BW progamers got the most out of their units, Usually they made it so the AI wasnt so bad, I just feel that with smarter AI will just come with harder micro. Also its only a week in, for all we know the fixes in balance will make micro work. We will figure out new micro techniques.
Basically
With it being easier should create better players. Micro wont be the same probably ever. But new mechanics will come in. Also I havent read up so I might of missed something but yea.
Making macro easier raises the skill ceiling? That doesn't make sense
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On February 26 2010 03:32 Tiamat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 03:24 MultiMarine wrote:On February 26 2010 03:22 Tiamat wrote:
I am sure this will never be replied to, but micro can also be VERY different that what you guys are bitching about.
I have yet seen a reply where a player has attacked 3 or more places at once on the map at the same time. Hell most of the time its rare to see a player attack 2 places at a time. All to common is one army vs another. I believe to be successful in SC2 you will need to take advantage of all the mobility the races have and attack at multiple places at the same time.
A few examples..
T - 2 dropships full of rines in the main, main army at the front door expo and meanwhile a pair of ghosts nuking another expo.
Z - Muta harass on the front lines, while a nydus pops up in the rear.
There is your true skills in this game. Yes it can be so different that it's no longer micro. what the hell are you talking about?
I was just making a point that you don't understand what micro is. Attacking on many fronts at the same time is not micro.
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On February 26 2010 03:37 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 03:34 Jimmeh wrote:On February 26 2010 03:25 SubtleArt wrote:On February 26 2010 03:21 Jimmeh wrote:On February 26 2010 03:16 JohannesH wrote:
So... How should the pathing be changed then, to make micro interesting. Units should only be able to move 1 matrix with every move command because otherwise it's too easy. Make units only attack once per attack command. To build a unit, you have to press the build button at least once every 5 seconds, otherwise the unit gets cancelled. Because, you know, otherwise macro would be too easy. Thanks for conceding in our argument. To JohannesH: Something simple like decrease pathfinding AI a bit or making the unit motions slightly more random and less uniform If it was up to you guys every unit would have to be directly managed completely. Even the probes mining, if you don't right click to tell them to mine EVERY SINGLE TIME then the skill celing's too low and every noob can become a progamer. Have you ever played WC3? The unit AI in that was pretty damn good, about as good as SC2, yet not everyone became a "progamer" because there's more to playing then just "LOL AUTO-SURROUND I WIN" Theres a reason it never became anything close to BW too. Not as challenging (the macro aspect just isnt there). Also no1 is complaining about probes mining so stop hyperbolizing cause it just makes your argument look stupid
Oh I agree the macro aspect wasn't there and that the game itself is nothing compared to Starcraft. All I'm saying is that just because units are a bit smarter doesn't mean micro is non-existent as WC3 itself was 99% micro even with all of its unit AI.
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On February 26 2010 03:27 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 03:22 Tiamat wrote:
I am sure this will never be replied to, but micro can also be VERY different that what you guys are bitching about.
I have yet seen a reply where a player has attacked 3 or more places at once on the map at the same time. Hell most of the time its rare to see a player attack 2 places at a time. All to common is one army vs another. I believe to be successful in SC2 you will need to take advantage of all the mobility the races have and attack at multiple places at the same time.
A few examples..
T - 2 dropships full of rines in the main, main army at the front door expo and meanwhile a pair of ghosts nuking another expo.
Z - Muta harass on the front lines, while a nydus pops up in the rear.
There is your true skills in this game. A divided army is generally a shitty army. The harass everywhere style was generally how zerg played. If toss or terran did it their armies would get raped. No1 knows exactly how each race is supposed to function yet but I guess you can make these multiple attack strats part of your experimentation. Its beta after all
I am just saying you can micro in different ways, just because zealots auto surround a unit does not make the game autofail. And I happen to think there are alot of units that dont really belong in the "main army pack" reapers, DTs, void rays in base raiding situations, Ghosts, Banshee, nydus worms, maybe even roaches to some extent, prism shuttle (forgot the name) warping units in the back of a base while you main is attacking a expo.
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On February 26 2010 03:32 Tiamat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 03:24 MultiMarine wrote:On February 26 2010 03:22 Tiamat wrote:
I am sure this will never be replied to, but micro can also be VERY different that what you guys are bitching about.
I have yet seen a reply where a player has attacked 3 or more places at once on the map at the same time. Hell most of the time its rare to see a player attack 2 places at a time. All to common is one army vs another. I believe to be successful in SC2 you will need to take advantage of all the mobility the races have and attack at multiple places at the same time.
A few examples..
T - 2 dropships full of rines in the main, main army at the front door expo and meanwhile a pair of ghosts nuking another expo.
Z - Muta harass on the front lines, while a nydus pops up in the rear.
There is your true skills in this game. Yes it can be so different that it's no longer micro. what the hell are you talking about?
What you described is multitaksing, not micro.
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On February 26 2010 03:14 Senx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 03:07 SubtleArt wrote:On February 26 2010 03:02 BlackYoshi wrote:On February 26 2010 01:57 Misrah wrote:On February 26 2010 01:46 Bane_ wrote:On February 26 2010 01:41 SubtleArt wrote:Much improved AI is the complaint about micro, yes. Also no1s saying the game sucks, just that the improvements make it too easy to micro, (and thus do not deem SC an esport), and ultimately too easy to have the same competitive atmosphere as BW How do we know this already though (the beta has been out a week...)? It may well be easier to play at a reasonably competitive level but there are still going to be ways for the top players to distance themselves from the crowd. they can not distance themselves when a game is so easy to play. I mean MBS and automine coupled with improved ai means that everyone will be playing perfect Starcraft with like 150apm lol Good; its a strategy game, the defining thing should be tactics and strategy, not how much you can practice (which pushed out the old Korean pros) and burns out all the current pros. They practice 8-12 hours a day, and many retire in the mid 20s. Its just not good for the "strategy". I think most Koreans will agree that Starcraft was more exciting in the days of Oov, Nal Ra, Boxer, and such when the game was more dynamic, less set-in stone, and unorthodox strategies could work on surprise factor alone, and the television ratings and crowds back that up. Macro doesn't limit strategy. Harder macro just makes it harder to achieve both, which is where multitask and practice come in The ability to macro well made strategy less important. Oov is enough of an example where macro was simply became a deciding factor. Just went on from there to where its now almost completely extinct to see any kind of strategic play from any progamer, simply beacuse the core gameplay itself does not support creative play.
Oov revolutionized starcraft by bringing fast-expanding strategies to the forefront, not because he was able to spend his money better than other progamers.
His macro revolution was in fact a strategy revolution.
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EPT
