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On February 26 2010 04:45 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 04:33 SubtleArt wrote:On February 26 2010 03:43 Jimmeh wrote:On February 26 2010 03:41 SubtleArt wrote:On February 26 2010 03:38 Jimmeh wrote:On February 26 2010 03:37 SubtleArt wrote:On February 26 2010 03:34 Jimmeh wrote:On February 26 2010 03:25 SubtleArt wrote:On February 26 2010 03:21 Jimmeh wrote:On February 26 2010 03:16 JohannesH wrote:
So... How should the pathing be changed then, to make micro interesting. Units should only be able to move 1 matrix with every move command because otherwise it's too easy. Make units only attack once per attack command. To build a unit, you have to press the build button at least once every 5 seconds, otherwise the unit gets cancelled. Because, you know, otherwise macro would be too easy. Thanks for conceding in our argument. To JohannesH: Something simple like decrease pathfinding AI a bit or making the unit motions slightly more random and less uniform If it was up to you guys every unit would have to be directly managed completely. Even the probes mining, if you don't right click to tell them to mine EVERY SINGLE TIME then the skill celing's too low and every noob can become a progamer. Have you ever played WC3? The unit AI in that was pretty damn good, about as good as SC2, yet not everyone became a "progamer" because there's more to playing then just "LOL AUTO-SURROUND I WIN" Theres a reason it never became anything close to BW too. Not as challenging (the macro aspect just isnt there). Also no1 is complaining about probes mining so stop hyperbolizing cause it just makes your argument look stupid Oh I agree the macro aspect wasn't there and that the game itself is nothing compared to Starcraft. All I'm saying is that just because units are a bit smarter doesn't mean micro is non-existent as WC3 itself was 99% micro even with all of its unit AI. We're not saying its an instant win but it makes it a hell of a lot easier than what it was in BW, which people view as a negative thing It makes it easier for the casual gamer to come and learn the game and play acceptably well without getting frustrated 'cause their units are idiots. However, the "hardcore" gamers will still have to put in a ton of effort to ensure that their units are doing exactly what they want. All they've done is lower the initial skill gap, the skill ceiling is still going to be as high as ever. You just don't get it, do you. Hardcore gamers will have to put in much LESS effort to ensure units are doing what they want. And making the game easier will only lower the initial skill gap? No. It'll lower the peak skill level. Again, you'd have to be stupid not to understand this. If you haven't gotten it at this point then I really don't know what to say. I understand that there's slightly less for the hardcore gamers to do. However, you're making it sound like everyone and their grandmothers will become the next Bonjwa of Starcraft 2 which will never be the case. The people who become the top progamers will be the people who practice constantly, put in a ton of dedication and learn all the tricks of the game.
Again stop hyperbolizing my argument cause it just makes yours look stupid. The point is heavily improved AI and MBS make it TOO easy, lowering the skill ceiling and catering too much to the newbs. Yes theres dedication required but not as much as there needs to be to make this as competitive and a true esports.
Maybe if you stopped exaggerating what I said you'd realize the argument
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It's definitely way to early to tell. I just wonder if there are enough wrinkles/quirks with units, buildings, and maps to allow some of the cool strategies we see today. I fear that blizzard, in the quest for presenting a consistent product, will have sterilized the game too much.
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On February 26 2010 03:55 choboPEon wrote:
hey, if the site being down is frustrating for you guys, imagine how frustrating it is for me. i'm paying for the thing. until the hosting company calls me back, no one is seeing the interviews. sorry.
i'll let you all know the second it's up, i promise.
Yea that's gotta suck. Any chance of additional interviews with other people like Blizz people or other SC pros? (I'd love to see an interview of what Dustin Browder, David Kim, Nony, Ret, or the rest of them think on the state of the game now that it's been out for a little over a week.)
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amazingly well written lke the last two articles.
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On February 26 2010 07:10 torm3ntin wrote:
amazingly well written lke the last two articles.
what, you can actually read them?
every link to me says internal error
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Every link is broken to me too
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This is a super-interesting thread and all, but can someone just post the interviews here? That site is crap.
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United States7166 Posts
ive a nice fiber optic connection here in southern california and I too get pretty god awful delay, every single game on bnet 2.0
i normally get great pings to other servers, I don't understand why HoN matches can have such insanely quick response times even if your ping says like 200, with 10 players in the game, but in SC2 bnet 2.0, with only 1v1 or 1 vs computer, there's always delay.
it's nearly as bad as the delay in every SC1 Bnet game (without lan latency)
and i'm 99.9% sure it's not my PC hardware or hardware configuration.
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On February 25 2010 23:43 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 23:05 bendez wrote:
Again, there is no "auto-surround" feature. Units know the most effective route to reach an enemy unit, and as a result, they surround the unit. You yourself said that you want units to know the shortest distance possible. In SC2, they did just that. Bendez glad that you heard about sc2- and came running over to this site to come and enjoy the beta. However- After reading through this entire thread I have come to the conclusion that you and many other 'new' members to the community are going to be frustrated with TL. the reason is simply this: You are a noobie to starcraft. I have seen so many players here not understand why starcraft is such a great game, and why so many people here on TL are very worried with the current state of the game. New members of our community need to try and understand that most people hear have played SC for years, and in the case of nazgul for decades. Please do not come into the community with assumed opinions about how an RTS should play. For the members of the community that have been playing starcraft for some time, they know far better than most what map control and unit positioning should play like. I am sorry but right now SC2 is a joke. Mechanically the game is not demanding, and you are completely incorrect to some how think that SC2 can be compared to SC1. SC2 is filled with easy buttons as far as i am concerned. There is no more micro, and macro is a one key press now. Any long term player of SC would not argue with me if I were to say that SC2 is: - Has limited micro capability - Is not mechanically demanding - Does not have the depth that SC enjoyed - Has poor excuses for APM sinks - Big battles are simply 1a2a3a, where any types of in battle decisions are negligible. Everything dies to quickly, or is too closely packed together- that your typical late game attacks are basically two blobs just attacking each other. - That Blizzard has made SC2 more casual (and has even been quoted as saying that they would like their mothers to be able to pick up and play the game) - We realize that the game will be more profitable if it is easy, so new players like yourself can easily and quickly start winning. However our community has a problem with this train of thought, because we had hoped that SC2 > SC1 however as every day passes that dream is slowly fading away. In short- SC2 is the super smash brothers brawl of SC1. (whereas SC1 is melee.) As a competitive melee player myself, brawl was a huge disappointment- and i fear that SC2 will be the same.
- Does not have the depth that SC enjoyed
How the fuck can you make such a claim, this is beyond retarded at so many levels.
- Has poor excuses for APM sinks
clicking your workers to gather minerals wasent a stupid apm sink?
- Big battles are simply 1a2a3a, where any types of in battle decisions are negligible. Everything dies to quickly, or is too closely packed together- that your typical late game attacks are basically two blobs just attacking each other.
...this is also a sad excuse, you could of made the same argument when sc came out.
Also Ive played sc competitively for 3 years and lurked the forums for like 2 so im a Broodwar fanatic but you clearly have no idea how compitive games r made with such assumptions
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same here, im dying to read those interviews but i just c'ant, the more i see this SC2 beta grow the whorst i feel about the game, my hopes were so high for this game, no doubt this is gonna be a terrific game for everyone to enjoy, then again most of the terrific games i have are well stored in a box while my SC is still running daily after 10 years, something is very special about starcraft and frankly ive played and watched sc2 more then someone should in the last few days and i feel whorst everyday... i pray for them to take the right direction with this game, hopefully a year or 2 after its official release, when the "casual/general" public will all have made blizzard very rich and all, they can go for PLAN B, patch the game up and switch it for us real starcraft hardcore fanatics that dont care about another RTS wih a starcraft title, we want Starcraft for what it is, a real bitch to handle!!!
im certainly gonna buy it .. i bet blizzard knows that already, like a hardcore SC fan could pass on it even if they tryed...
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SC:BW players bitching about improved unit AI and pathing. Could have seen this coming. Sorry not everyone else played SC1 long enough to overcome the dated Unit AI/Pathing/Interface. SC2 is a modern RTS, get your heads out of your own asses.
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Why would u come post that, this is a starcraft website made for starcraft fans.. 1+1=2
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The beta hasn't been out a week, 95% of the players that think they're good now won't ever play professionally. People should really stop already coming to conclusions about the game, especially if you haven't played a Beta before.
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On February 26 2010 08:03 fnaticAugury wrote:
The beta hasn't been out a week, 95% of the players that think they're good now won't ever play professionally. People should really stop already coming to conclusions about the game, especially if you haven't played a Beta before.
beta = feedback.
Otherwise there would be no beta duh.
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On February 26 2010 08:03 fnaticAugury wrote:
The beta hasn't been out a week, 95% of the players that think they're good now won't ever play professionally. People should really stop already coming to conclusions about the game, especially if you haven't played a Beta before.
You are totaly right, i just had nothing better to do at this very moment, im still very confident that itll all add up sooner or later.. Thumbs up
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I think the new macro mechanics are nice, the only thing i am worried about is micro ala mutas, dragoons or vultures.
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On February 26 2010 03:07 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 02:58 BlackYoshi wrote:On February 26 2010 01:24 mdb wrote:On February 26 2010 01:17 BlackYoshi wrote:On February 25 2010 23:36 SubtleArt wrote:On February 25 2010 22:45 viletomato wrote:
I see it as simply...
Easier Gameplay (Auto surround) ---> Caters to casual gamer
'Harder' Gameplay (No Auto surround) ---> Caters to the hardcore crowd
Casual gamer numbers > Hardcore gamer numbers
So here is the contradiction that Blizzard faces... how can you cater to the hardcore and casual at the same time? You can't. You have to choose one or the other. UNLESS there is an option in game to switch autosurround on and off. But then you have a non-unified game and you have a divided community. I don't think that is something that Blizzard will implement.
At this time many people will say, since Blizzard wants to cater to the majority and make more $$ for the business they will cater to the casual gamer. To this I respond:
The popularity amongst hardcore gamers gives rise to the incentive that the casual gamers want to play the game and become hardcore. For example, some guy knowing nothing about sc sees jaedong on TV in korea and picks up the game because of the hardcore following. So I think catering to the Hardcore is very very important in attracting casual players to play the game. Think about how many noobs have watched pro korean players on youtube and picked up starcraft in the last 10 years. If there wasn't a pro following at all (based on crappy gameplay) you think any casual gamer would want to play the game past 2002ish? Heck no, it'll be forgotten just like all the other games that never stood the test of time.
So my thoughts are:
Catering to the Casual ---> Ensures an initial boom of players, Big bucks for the first 3-4 years and then a dying fanbase and $$ trails off.
Catering to the Hardcore ---> Ensures the longevity of the game. Lets just assume initially not as many players will play comparing to catering to the casual, but will generate cash for blizz in form of TV and tournaments over the next 10 years. $$ comes in for a long amount of time.
I really think option 2 is the better choice.... no casual gamer is not going to play SC2 just because there is no autosurround... they don't follow it, they don't even know what it is.
I'm sure blizzard has thought about all these things, and have stuck with their decision.
BW falls into the harcore category and last time I checked its probably the most successful RTS ever made. S Of course you can cater to both hardcore and casual. You have to favor one slightly, but theres no reason that the 2 extremes are the only option. For example: Pathfinding improvement :Obviously ok, even for hardcore fans Multiple unit selection: fine, more appeasement for casual people but still viable. Auto surround: Now its ridiculous. Theres no reason casual gamers will stray away from the game because they don't have an AI doing all the micro themselves. Take improved battle AI away and you've appeased both sides. Easier to manage units, but microing skill is still there. One of the suggestions offered by a lot of ppl (and even some on teamliquid) was improve the macro mechanic even more by being able to press a button like alt and then a hotkey for a unit and have all gateways produce that unit. Does this not seem ridiculous? If you appease the casual crowd this much then the game just became your standard above average RTS. Nothing special, and certainly nothing that will attract pro gaming. I swear if they add this feature I'm never gonna play SC2 X_X. The point is Blizzard needs to find some middle ground because right now everythings just way too easy. I think the stance blizzard chooses needs to cater more to the hardcore gaming side because this is the sequel to SC1...you still need to remain true to its roots. Also is the server still not working for any1 else??? Brood War is the hardcore? Most of the people who still play BW are playing Big Game Hunter games, UMS, and other "casual" games. The ICCUP crowd is very small. ![[image loading]](http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/starcraft/images/thumb/f/f7/SkyProLeagueFinal.jpg/330px-SkyProLeagueFinal.jpg) what about this crowd? The people who watch Starcraft games are probably not hardcore players, and are not "PRO COMPETITIVE" gods. They watch because its entertaining to watch, just like any other sport And in just about any other sport that is really popular among spectators it is damn hard to achieve pro level. If it isn't hard, it doesn't seem to be so much fun to watch.
If you think it will be easy to achieve "pro level" , you need to work on your analysis skills. Its one week of beta. The game will change significantly between now and release, and between release and expansions and patches. Its impossible to draw any conclusions at this point.
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On February 26 2010 03:14 MultiMarine wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 03:02 BlackYoshi wrote:On February 26 2010 01:57 Misrah wrote:On February 26 2010 01:46 Bane_ wrote:On February 26 2010 01:41 SubtleArt wrote:Much improved AI is the complaint about micro, yes. Also no1s saying the game sucks, just that the improvements make it too easy to micro, (and thus do not deem SC an esport), and ultimately too easy to have the same competitive atmosphere as BW How do we know this already though (the beta has been out a week...)? It may well be easier to play at a reasonably competitive level but there are still going to be ways for the top players to distance themselves from the crowd. they can not distance themselves when a game is so easy to play. I mean MBS and automine coupled with improved ai means that everyone will be playing perfect Starcraft with like 150apm lol Good; its a strategy game, the defining thing should be tactics and strategy, not how much you can practice (which pushed out the old Korean pros) and burns out all the current pros. They practice 8-12 hours a day, and many retire in the mid 20s. Its just not good for the "strategy". I think most Koreans will agree that Starcraft was more exciting in the days of Oov, Nal Ra, Boxer, and such when the game was more dynamic, less set-in stone, and unorthodox strategies could work on surprise factor alone, and the television ratings and crowds back that up. It's impossible to create a game that's about strategy that people want to watch. All sports and games involve strategy but it's just one part of the game. The strategy can be pretty easy or very complicated. If it's easy observers can understand and enjoy it, but at the same time you need something more then strategy to make it interesting. You need speed and skill. If the strategy is very complicated(chess), no one wants to watch it because they can't understand the strategy and therfore cannot enjoy it.
Football strategy is incredibly complicated and is the most watched sport in America, mostly by people who actually understand only basic amounts of the strategy employed.
I'm certain that this is true of Korean spectators. They may realize why something is good against what, what the advantages are, whats a good move and whats a bad move, but the random spectator probably won't be able to tell you specific resource timings, exact push timings, etc, but that doesn't mean it can't be entertaining.
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On February 26 2010 03:25 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 03:21 Jimmeh wrote:On February 26 2010 03:16 JohannesH wrote:
So... How should the pathing be changed then, to make micro interesting. Units should only be able to move 1 matrix with every move command because otherwise it's too easy. Make units only attack once per attack command. To build a unit, you have to press the build button at least once every 5 seconds, otherwise the unit gets cancelled. Because, you know, otherwise macro would be too easy. Thanks for conceding in our argument. To JohannesH: Something simple like decrease pathfinding AI a bit or making the unit motions slightly more random and less uniform
So make the game more frustrating to the average player. Got it.
Absolutely no one likes it when your units do you something you didn't tell them to and then you have to babysit them.
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On February 26 2010 03:37 SubtleArt wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 26 2010 03:34 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 03:25 SubtleArt wrote:On February 26 2010 03:21 Jimmeh wrote:On February 26 2010 03:16 JohannesH wrote:
So... How should the pathing be changed then, to make micro interesting. Units should only be able to move 1 matrix with every move command because otherwise it's too easy. Make units only attack once per attack command. To build a unit, you have to press the build button at least once every 5 seconds, otherwise the unit gets cancelled. Because, you know, otherwise macro would be too easy. Thanks for conceding in our argument. To JohannesH: Something simple like decrease pathfinding AI a bit or making the unit motions slightly more random and less uniform If it was up to you guys every unit would have to be directly managed completely. Even the probes mining, if you don't right click to tell them to mine EVERY SINGLE TIME then the skill celing's too low and every noob can become a progamer. Have you ever played WC3? The unit AI in that was pretty damn good, about as good as SC2, yet not everyone became a "progamer" because there's more to playing then just "LOL AUTO-SURROUND I WIN" Theres a reason it never became anything close to BW too. Not as challenging (the macro aspect just isnt there). Also no1 is complaining about probes mining so stop hyperbolizing cause it just makes your argument look stupid. + Show Spoiler +On February 26 2010 03:35 Chained wrote:
First post here, Ill just give my view as a "casual" gamer.
First off, when I first heard of all these new macro mechanics, many thought it would lower the talent level. Well I to an extent disagree, I believe that also raised the celing. You cant tell me if Jaedong and I had 5 minutes to create as many zerglings as possible that Jaedong wont win that by a landslide. But Me being a long time BW player will be able to out macro a newer player that is trying it for the first time.
Now when it comes to micro I feel the same way. In BW progamers got the most out of their units, Usually they made it so the AI wasnt so bad, I just feel that with smarter AI will just come with harder micro. Also its only a week in, for all we know the fixes in balance will make micro work. We will figure out new micro techniques.
Basically
With it being easier should create better players. Micro wont be the same probably ever. But new mechanics will come in. Also I havent read up so I might of missed something but yea. Making macro easier raises the skill ceiling? That doesn't make sense
WC3 had a growing pro scene in Korea, but a map fixing scandal pretty much destroyed any credibility and made WC3 look like pro wrestling.
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EPT
