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On February 25 2010 20:57 ret wrote:
I really hate how in sc2, micro is almost non existant. Combined with the easy macro, you have a really dumb simple game right now that almost anyone can be good at. >.<
in fact, usually one gets punished if they try to micro. not to mention a+move seems to target buildings before units if both are in range...
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On February 26 2010 03:38 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 03:37 SubtleArt wrote:On February 26 2010 03:34 Jimmeh wrote:On February 26 2010 03:25 SubtleArt wrote:On February 26 2010 03:21 Jimmeh wrote:On February 26 2010 03:16 JohannesH wrote:
So... How should the pathing be changed then, to make micro interesting. Units should only be able to move 1 matrix with every move command because otherwise it's too easy. Make units only attack once per attack command. To build a unit, you have to press the build button at least once every 5 seconds, otherwise the unit gets cancelled. Because, you know, otherwise macro would be too easy. Thanks for conceding in our argument. To JohannesH: Something simple like decrease pathfinding AI a bit or making the unit motions slightly more random and less uniform If it was up to you guys every unit would have to be directly managed completely. Even the probes mining, if you don't right click to tell them to mine EVERY SINGLE TIME then the skill celing's too low and every noob can become a progamer. Have you ever played WC3? The unit AI in that was pretty damn good, about as good as SC2, yet not everyone became a "progamer" because there's more to playing then just "LOL AUTO-SURROUND I WIN" Theres a reason it never became anything close to BW too. Not as challenging (the macro aspect just isnt there). Also no1 is complaining about probes mining so stop hyperbolizing cause it just makes your argument look stupid Oh I agree the macro aspect wasn't there and that the game itself is nothing compared to Starcraft. All I'm saying is that just because units are a bit smarter doesn't mean micro is non-existent as WC3 itself was 99% micro even with all of its unit AI.
We're not saying its an instant win but it makes it a hell of a lot easier than what it was in BW, which people view as a negative thing
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On February 26 2010 03:38 MultiMarine wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 03:32 Tiamat wrote:On February 26 2010 03:24 MultiMarine wrote:On February 26 2010 03:22 Tiamat wrote:
I am sure this will never be replied to, but micro can also be VERY different that what you guys are bitching about.
I have yet seen a reply where a player has attacked 3 or more places at once on the map at the same time. Hell most of the time its rare to see a player attack 2 places at a time. All to common is one army vs another. I believe to be successful in SC2 you will need to take advantage of all the mobility the races have and attack at multiple places at the same time.
A few examples..
T - 2 dropships full of rines in the main, main army at the front door expo and meanwhile a pair of ghosts nuking another expo.
Z - Muta harass on the front lines, while a nydus pops up in the rear.
There is your true skills in this game. Yes it can be so different that it's no longer micro. what the hell are you talking about? I was just making a point that you don't understand what micro is. Attacking on many fronts at the same time is not micro.
Yes it is! Macro = the art of making units, managing your base etc. Micro = the art of CONTROLLING YOUR UNITS. How is controlling three different units at different parts of the map not micro?
So your telling me that cloaking your ghost, getting it to the nuke site, nuking.. and then controlling your 2 dropships at a totally different place on the map and dropping the payload in a safe spot.. all while controlling your main army at a different place is not micro. Maybe this is the reason this thread has 16 pages? People define micro totally different. Im old school. To me Zileas was a MICRO player, he would micro his reavers around in a shuttle all while attacking with his main army elsewhere.
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On February 26 2010 03:41 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 03:38 Jimmeh wrote:On February 26 2010 03:37 SubtleArt wrote:On February 26 2010 03:34 Jimmeh wrote:On February 26 2010 03:25 SubtleArt wrote:On February 26 2010 03:21 Jimmeh wrote:On February 26 2010 03:16 JohannesH wrote:
So... How should the pathing be changed then, to make micro interesting. Units should only be able to move 1 matrix with every move command because otherwise it's too easy. Make units only attack once per attack command. To build a unit, you have to press the build button at least once every 5 seconds, otherwise the unit gets cancelled. Because, you know, otherwise macro would be too easy. Thanks for conceding in our argument. To JohannesH: Something simple like decrease pathfinding AI a bit or making the unit motions slightly more random and less uniform If it was up to you guys every unit would have to be directly managed completely. Even the probes mining, if you don't right click to tell them to mine EVERY SINGLE TIME then the skill celing's too low and every noob can become a progamer. Have you ever played WC3? The unit AI in that was pretty damn good, about as good as SC2, yet not everyone became a "progamer" because there's more to playing then just "LOL AUTO-SURROUND I WIN" Theres a reason it never became anything close to BW too. Not as challenging (the macro aspect just isnt there). Also no1 is complaining about probes mining so stop hyperbolizing cause it just makes your argument look stupid Oh I agree the macro aspect wasn't there and that the game itself is nothing compared to Starcraft. All I'm saying is that just because units are a bit smarter doesn't mean micro is non-existent as WC3 itself was 99% micro even with all of its unit AI. We're not saying its an instant win but it makes it a hell of a lot easier than what it was in BW, which people view as a negative thing
It makes it easier for the casual gamer to come and learn the game and play acceptably well without getting frustrated 'cause their units are idiots. However, the "hardcore" gamers will still have to put in a ton of effort to ensure that their units are doing exactly what they want. All they've done is lower the initial skill gap, the skill ceiling is still going to be as high as ever.
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On February 26 2010 03:43 Tiamat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 03:38 MultiMarine wrote:On February 26 2010 03:32 Tiamat wrote:On February 26 2010 03:24 MultiMarine wrote:On February 26 2010 03:22 Tiamat wrote:
I am sure this will never be replied to, but micro can also be VERY different that what you guys are bitching about.
I have yet seen a reply where a player has attacked 3 or more places at once on the map at the same time. Hell most of the time its rare to see a player attack 2 places at a time. All to common is one army vs another. I believe to be successful in SC2 you will need to take advantage of all the mobility the races have and attack at multiple places at the same time.
A few examples..
T - 2 dropships full of rines in the main, main army at the front door expo and meanwhile a pair of ghosts nuking another expo.
Z - Muta harass on the front lines, while a nydus pops up in the rear.
There is your true skills in this game. Yes it can be so different that it's no longer micro. what the hell are you talking about? I was just making a point that you don't understand what micro is. Attacking on many fronts at the same time is not micro. Yes it is! Macro = the art of making units, managing your base etc. Micro = the art of CONTROLLING YOUR UNITS. How is controlling three different units at different parts of the map not micro? So your telling me that cloaking your ghost, getting it to the nuke site, nuking.. and then controlling your 2 dropships at a totally different place on the map and dropping the payload in a safe spot.. all while controlling your main army at a different place is not micro. Maybe this is the reason this thread has 16 pages? People define micro totally different. Im old school. To me Zileas was a MICRO player, he would micro his reavers around in a shuttle all while attacking with his main army elsewhere.
I'm old school too and you are still wrong. Zileas controlling his reaver and shuttle is micro, but all the other stuff you are talking about is multitasking.
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Site is still down? Wanna read the interviews. 
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On February 26 2010 03:47 Squallcloud wrote:Site is still down? Wanna read the interviews.
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Could someone post the interviews into the OP?
I've kept checking the site links but they're still down. Any idea when the site might be up again? You will still get a lot of site hits even if you post the interviews here.
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Warcraft 3 is completely different from starcraft. The game revolves around heroes, smaller army, items, not to mention different economy management (upkeep). To say that WC3 never became as popular as SC because of better AI is silly. Also there is no micro in WC3? I'm not even bother commenting on that. 
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hey, if the site being down is frustrating for you guys, imagine how frustrating it is for me. i'm paying for the thing. until the hosting company calls me back, no one is seeing the interviews. sorry.
i'll let you all know the second it's up, i promise.
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On February 25 2010 22:23 BlackYoshi wrote:
did you just want a reskinned Brood War, with all the same AI flaws? What is your exact suggestion to "add micro" back in to the game?
I've read other threads that have addressed this issue, and halfway through this one without hearing anyone approach the actual (fairly obvious, actually )solution to this problem:
The solution is not "completely inert AI requiring clickfest babysitting" VS "super intelligent AI requiring no player input"
The solution is:
"competent AI with intelligent pathfinding, that is augmented by special moves for each unit"
Analogy:
What separated the kick ass player from the average guy in Mortal Combat?
Answer:
Special Moves:
Each fighting charachter had a basic sequence of moves that it could do simply. If you pressed one, maybe two buttons fast enough you could kick straight, or punch straight.
If you added more buttons to a sequence you could do more sophisticated moves: roundhouse kicks, and uppercuts. Some of these were only effective if you had your avatar in the right position vs your opponents.
However, the uber Special Moves were the Fatalities:
If you knew the moves and could execute them fast enough in the right sequence, 4 or 5 button presses would do those wicked cool Fatalities that made everyone laugh .. they totally kicked ass.
This is what Starcraft needs for every unit.
The answer is to add special micro abilities to every unit, and make them precise enough to be difficult to pull off with consistency in the heat of strategizing, macroing and battle.
It's things like using the Patrol button to force a retreating Vulture to fire at pursuing zerglings on the move. It involves tweaking the "auto surround" to only take effect when say ... you have a group of zerglings selected, then right clicking on a target, then immediately right clicking twice *behind* the target to activate the surround.
In this way you satisfy all parties, the casual gamers (mass sales) that Blizz needs to profit ...and the truly skilled players that will elevate the game from a casual hobby to an art.
Peeps need to step outside the "either / or" box that they are trapped in in order to see this /obvious
.
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Man this thread really became a shit-storm. I feel like I'm back in the great MBS flame-fests of 2008.
Anyways 2 misunderstandings have got to stop. 1.) Assuming that hardcore BW fans yearn for an interface even more arbitrarily limited than that of WC2. This is totally unjustified. Stop it. 2.) Assuming that hardcore BW fans want SC2 to be similar to BW in as many respects as possible. This is totally unjustified. Stop it. At the very least attempt to tenably connect what BW fans assert with what they supposedly believe or desire.
That said I can't wait to actually see these interviews.
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Blizzard was going somewhere when they added abilities like blink. Another good example is the viking. As of right now, you do not see the infestor come into play. Its pretty much the same case with Templars and Ravens. Fixing the spellcasters will DRASTICALLY improve how well it plays. You dont need dumb AI, that shouldnt be an issue. You just need interesting units. Reminds me of the if it hits like a truck, it needs to be a glass cannon and vice versa thread. We have that sort of in SC2, its just not exagerated enough. If you catch hydras from behind a wall of roaches, you should tear them to peices and win that fight.
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I use ravens TvZ I think seeker missile kicks ass, I think spellcasters are good so far... dunno about infestors, I'm guessing they replace defilers?
The only imba spellcaster is the motherfucking mothership
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On February 26 2010 04:09 cuteFayth wrote:
I use ravens TvZ I think seeker missile kicks ass, I think spellcasters are good so far... dunno about infestors, I'm guessing they replace defilers?
The only imba spellcaster is the motherfucking mothership
The best use for a raven I've seen so far is to snipe those pesky medivacs and to keep detection with your army. Otherwise thats money you could be using on having a bigger army <.<.
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misrah and subtleart, ill tell u this:
neither of u will in the near furture become pro at any rts game cause ur horizon is one dimensional and narrow.
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On February 26 2010 03:43 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 03:41 SubtleArt wrote:On February 26 2010 03:38 Jimmeh wrote:On February 26 2010 03:37 SubtleArt wrote:On February 26 2010 03:34 Jimmeh wrote:On February 26 2010 03:25 SubtleArt wrote:On February 26 2010 03:21 Jimmeh wrote:On February 26 2010 03:16 JohannesH wrote:
So... How should the pathing be changed then, to make micro interesting. Units should only be able to move 1 matrix with every move command because otherwise it's too easy. Make units only attack once per attack command. To build a unit, you have to press the build button at least once every 5 seconds, otherwise the unit gets cancelled. Because, you know, otherwise macro would be too easy. Thanks for conceding in our argument. To JohannesH: Something simple like decrease pathfinding AI a bit or making the unit motions slightly more random and less uniform If it was up to you guys every unit would have to be directly managed completely. Even the probes mining, if you don't right click to tell them to mine EVERY SINGLE TIME then the skill celing's too low and every noob can become a progamer. Have you ever played WC3? The unit AI in that was pretty damn good, about as good as SC2, yet not everyone became a "progamer" because there's more to playing then just "LOL AUTO-SURROUND I WIN" Theres a reason it never became anything close to BW too. Not as challenging (the macro aspect just isnt there). Also no1 is complaining about probes mining so stop hyperbolizing cause it just makes your argument look stupid Oh I agree the macro aspect wasn't there and that the game itself is nothing compared to Starcraft. All I'm saying is that just because units are a bit smarter doesn't mean micro is non-existent as WC3 itself was 99% micro even with all of its unit AI. We're not saying its an instant win but it makes it a hell of a lot easier than what it was in BW, which people view as a negative thing It makes it easier for the casual gamer to come and learn the game and play acceptably well without getting frustrated 'cause their units are idiots. However, the "hardcore" gamers will still have to put in a ton of effort to ensure that their units are doing exactly what they want. All they've done is lower the initial skill gap, the skill ceiling is still going to be as high as ever.
You just don't get it, do you. Hardcore gamers will have to put in much LESS effort to ensure units are doing what they want. And making the game easier will only lower the initial skill gap? No. It'll lower the peak skill level. Again, you'd have to be stupid not to understand this. If you haven't gotten it at this point then I really don't know what to say.
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On February 26 2010 04:33 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 03:43 Jimmeh wrote:On February 26 2010 03:41 SubtleArt wrote:On February 26 2010 03:38 Jimmeh wrote:On February 26 2010 03:37 SubtleArt wrote:On February 26 2010 03:34 Jimmeh wrote:On February 26 2010 03:25 SubtleArt wrote:On February 26 2010 03:21 Jimmeh wrote:On February 26 2010 03:16 JohannesH wrote:
So... How should the pathing be changed then, to make micro interesting. Units should only be able to move 1 matrix with every move command because otherwise it's too easy. Make units only attack once per attack command. To build a unit, you have to press the build button at least once every 5 seconds, otherwise the unit gets cancelled. Because, you know, otherwise macro would be too easy. Thanks for conceding in our argument. To JohannesH: Something simple like decrease pathfinding AI a bit or making the unit motions slightly more random and less uniform If it was up to you guys every unit would have to be directly managed completely. Even the probes mining, if you don't right click to tell them to mine EVERY SINGLE TIME then the skill celing's too low and every noob can become a progamer. Have you ever played WC3? The unit AI in that was pretty damn good, about as good as SC2, yet not everyone became a "progamer" because there's more to playing then just "LOL AUTO-SURROUND I WIN" Theres a reason it never became anything close to BW too. Not as challenging (the macro aspect just isnt there). Also no1 is complaining about probes mining so stop hyperbolizing cause it just makes your argument look stupid Oh I agree the macro aspect wasn't there and that the game itself is nothing compared to Starcraft. All I'm saying is that just because units are a bit smarter doesn't mean micro is non-existent as WC3 itself was 99% micro even with all of its unit AI. We're not saying its an instant win but it makes it a hell of a lot easier than what it was in BW, which people view as a negative thing It makes it easier for the casual gamer to come and learn the game and play acceptably well without getting frustrated 'cause their units are idiots. However, the "hardcore" gamers will still have to put in a ton of effort to ensure that their units are doing exactly what they want. All they've done is lower the initial skill gap, the skill ceiling is still going to be as high as ever. You just don't get it, do you. Hardcore gamers will have to put in much LESS effort to ensure units are doing what they want. And making the game easier will only lower the initial skill gap? No. It'll lower the peak skill level. Again, you'd have to be stupid not to understand this. If you haven't gotten it at this point then I really don't know what to say.
I understand that there's slightly less for the hardcore gamers to do. However, you're making it sound like everyone and their grandmothers will become the next Bonjwa of Starcraft 2 which will never be the case. The people who become the top progamers will be the people who practice constantly, put in a ton of dedication and learn all the tricks of the game.
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I am with Chill here. I think it's completely unrealistic to expect BW-level micro and tactics out of SC2 that has been out for about a week in its beta form. It took years for BW to get to the level it's at. During the first week, people were likely just a-moving as well. Heck, since there had been no previous SC game to teach them the basics, they were likely playing even more retarded than SC2 players do now. It is hard to say whether SC2 will match BW-level quality and complexity, but it's pretty certain that it will have far more micro and tactics that people can possible imagine at this stage.
EDIT: since such things matter on this site, I'll add that I have played SC since the day it came out in 1998 and have made it to B on iccup as a qualifier.
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week 1 and all the pros are bitching. who gives a crap, they don't have any idea what they're talking about, its a totally different game.
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EPT
