Nexus has time warp ability, Obelisk out of game - Page 5
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leejas
United States440 Posts
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Rufio
241 Posts
On February 12 2010 05:13 SWPIGWANG wrote: Woo, I think someone may have read my old post on TL.net ....or maybe it is a case of convergent solutions. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=108753 Foresight? :D I remember reading that thread. I thought it was a great Idea then and stilll believe so now. Good suggestion. | ||
Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On February 12 2010 04:49 Archerofaiur wrote: You know what... ... that sounds sorta kinda like what I suggested two months ago... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=106806¤tpage=2#39 + Show Spoiler + Idea for a replacement for the Obelisk (let's face it, the Obelisk was all about Proton Charge anyway): Protoss Starbase Link The Protoss Starbase Link is a building enhancement that turns a production building into a Starbase, bypassing all the tolls and red tape normally associated with interstellar travel. With this enhancement, buildings can speed up and drastically reduce the cost of summoning reinforcements from space. Once a Protoss player obtains Gateway tech, every Nexus will generate a single Starbase Link that a Probe can take and install on the following buildings: Gateway, Stargate, Robotics Facility. This link will power up the selected building, reducing costs by X (where X is determined through gameplay balancing) and speeding up unit production by Y. At the same time, the building will suffer from the psionic strain this link causes, and after Z amount of units produced, the link will cease to function until a Probe retrieves it and reinstalls it on a different building. If a building with the Starbase Link is destroyed, or a Probe carrying the link is destroyed, the Nexus that created it will have to reestablish the link, which takes time. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 12 2010 15:07 Zato-1 wrote: You know what... ... that sounds sorta kinda like what I suggested two months ago... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=106806¤tpage=2#39 + Show Spoiler + Idea for a replacement for the Obelisk (let's face it, the Obelisk was all about Proton Charge anyway): Protoss Starbase Link The Protoss Starbase Link is a building enhancement that turns a production building into a Starbase, bypassing all the tolls and red tape normally associated with interstellar travel. With this enhancement, buildings can speed up and drastically reduce the cost of summoning reinforcements from space. Once a Protoss player obtains Gateway tech, every Nexus will generate a single Starbase Link that a Probe can take and install on the following buildings: Gateway, Stargate, Robotics Facility. This link will power up the selected building, reducing costs by X (where X is determined through gameplay balancing) and speeding up unit production by Y. At the same time, the building will suffer from the psionic strain this link causes, and after Z amount of units produced, the link will cease to function until a Probe retrieves it and reinstalls it on a different building. If a building with the Starbase Link is destroyed, or a Probe carrying the link is destroyed, the Nexus that created it will have to reestablish the link, which takes time. Just curious, why didn't you allow Nexus as one of your original Starbase Link buildings? Increased probe production seems like it's at least worth consideration. | ||
Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On February 12 2010 15:11 TheYango wrote: Just curious, why didn't you allow Nexus as one of your original Starbase Link buildings? Increased probe production seems like it's at least worth consideration. I was basing myself on MULE calldown. Terrans can get more minerals; what can they do with these additional minerals? Well, mostly build more buildings (Barracks, Factories, Supply Depots), and make more units (Marines, Marauders, Tanks, etc). So, I thought of a different way of emulating a similar end-result; getting the Protoss to produce more Zealots, Stalkers and Colossi. Those units cost: Build Time from a building (you're not getting extra minerals so you have the same amount of buildings as you would without a macro mechanic), and resources. Therefore, instead of giving you more resources, this would reduce expenses by an amount equivalent to what having those resources would've yielded. So, instead of asking 'why not probes?', I took the approach of, 'Let's give the Protoss something similar to what Terrans get'. There are some differences still- Terran can take advantage of his extra minerals to build an earlier expansion CC, Protoss couldn't. Protoss could speed up production of key units as soon as the prerequisite tech becomes available- remember how Colossi take forever to build in those SC2 Battle Reports? You could get a fast Phoenix for harassing, fast Colossi, or faster Observers if there are cloaked units in your base and you're lacking detection. As far as I can tell, the biggest differences between what I suggested and Blizzard is currently employing are: - Protoss will be poorer/will employ fewer production buildings. The only way this macro mechanic is increasing your income is if you build more probes with it, and even that takes time to kick in (kind of like investing on an expansion, but on a smaller scale)- compare that to MULES which give you minerals, no questions asked, right away. The flipside is that Protoss can choose to be super greedy and supercharge his economy if his opponent allows him to. - Faster research. I only see this being an issue with Charge and Blink really, other research options like Psi Storm won't significantly speed up your psi storm acquisition because you still need those Templars to come out and have enough energy. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 12 2010 15:39 Zato-1 wrote: - Protoss will be poorer/will employ fewer production buildings. The only way this macro mechanic is increasing your income is if you build more probes with it, and even that takes time to kick in (kind of like investing on an expansion, but on a smaller scale)- compare that to MULES which give you minerals, no questions asked, right away. The flipside is that Protoss can choose to be super greedy and supercharge his economy if his opponent allows him to. The first thing that came to mind with the bolded statement was the Queen's Spawn Larva. Conceptual overlap with *both* other macro mechanics seems better than with a single one. On February 12 2010 15:39 Zato-1 wrote: - Faster research. I only see this being an issue with Charge and Blink really, other research options like Psi Storm won't significantly speed up your psi storm acquisition because you still need those Templars to come out and have enough energy. There's the critical fact that it can be used on attack upgrades, which, if the numbers are tweaked properly, and interactions like +1 attack for Protoss vs. Zerg exist, it could still be potentially powerful. | ||
Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On February 12 2010 15:49 TheYango wrote: The first thing that came to mind with the bolded statement was the Queen's Spawn Larva. Conceptual overlap with *both* other macro mechanics seems better than with a single one. Hm. You make a good point. On February 12 2010 15:49 TheYango wrote: There's the critical fact that it can be used on attack upgrades, which, if the numbers are tweaked properly, and interactions like +1 attack for Protoss vs. Zerg exist, it could still be potentially powerful. Are you sure of this? The blue quote only mentions research, which as far as I'm concerned is in a different category to upgrades (e.g. in BW, mind controlling an enemy corsair with 3/3 upgrades, D-Web and Argus Jewel, would give you the D-Web and Argus Jewel research, but not the 3/3 upgrades). If faster upgrades were allowed, then a faster +1 attack could indeed be a big deal vs. Zerg, I guess it would depend on how easy / fast it is to get Banelings. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 12 2010 16:05 Zato-1 wrote: Are you sure of this? The blue quote only mentions research, which as far as I'm concerned is in a different category to upgrades (e.g. in BW, mind controlling an enemy corsair with 3/3 upgrades, D-Web and Argus Jewel, would give you the D-Web and Argus Jewel research, but not the 3/3 upgrades). If faster upgrades were allowed, then a faster +1 attack could indeed be a big deal vs. Zerg, I guess it would depend on how easy / fast it is to get Banelings. This is really picking at the wording, but Karune uses "research" as a verb. You research both tech and upgrades, and I've heard plenty of people use research as the verb for both. Not to mention, that Starcraft has some grey area as to what is tech and what is an upgrade (Obviously psi storm is tech and +1 attack is an upgrade, but what about templar energy? Marine range? Shuttle speed? Reaver attack? Ultralisk armor?). Either way, we're both making blind speculation. | ||
FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On February 12 2010 16:10 TheYango wrote: This is really picking at the wording, but Karune uses "research" as a verb. You research both tech and upgrades, and I've heard plenty of people use research as the verb for both. Not to mention, that Starcraft has some grey area as to what is tech and what is an upgrade (Obviously psi storm is tech and +1 attack is an upgrade, but what about templar energy? Marine range? Shuttle speed? Reaver attack? Ultralisk armor?). Either way, we're both making blind speculation. As far as BW is concerned? +1/+2/+3 attack, armor and psi shield upgrades of all kinds are upgrades, everything else is a research (including chitinous plating for +2 ultralisk armor). Still, I'm happy Proton Charge was replaced. Getting choices and decisions is better than mindlessly spamming your 'more minerals' ability. Early on in the game, these choices will be streamlined into Build Orders so the decision-making part won't be as pronounced, but it should be interesting to see what happens as the game goes into the midgame and you have to adapt to circumstances. I'm guessing this new spell on the Nexus will have a max casting range- what will you do with your expansions? Will we see Warp Gates and Templar Archives at expansions now, to take advantage of all of your Time Warps? I'm curious as to whether players will end up building the Protoss tech tree and production buildings spread out among their bases rather than having everything at the main. | ||
Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On February 12 2010 16:20 FabledIntegral wrote: Can you build probes while the Nexus is doing this? I think it'd be cool if doing this forced you to stop probe production. From the limited info we have, I think it's extremely likely that the Nexus would not have to stop making Probes in order to use this ability. | ||
starfries
Canada3508 Posts
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
On December 28 2009 03:04 Fontong wrote: Pig wang, this mechanic is pretty strange because of the range limitation. It is a sign that is already a very forced an unnatural mechanic for protoss. The strategic effects are far reaching and range from annulling the usefulness of proxies to making a build similar to the forge first FE in SC1 much weaker because you cannot speed buildings more than 14 range away. luckily it wont be in the game. thank god LoL | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 12 2010 16:24 Zato-1 wrote: As far as BW is concerned? +1/+2/+3 attack, armor and psi shield upgrades of all kinds are upgrades, everything else is a research (including chitinous plating for +2 ultralisk armor). I always went by the game's criteria. If the adjutant/Overmind/Aldaris say "upgrade complete", then it's an upgrade, and if they say "research complete" it's research. This puts stuff like marine range and vulture speed under the upgrade category. This is, of course, a massive digression. | ||
skypacer
China174 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=97663 + Show Spoiler + The core of my Terran macro mechanic is still the Orbital Center, so if you could understand how my OC works, you’d get what I say easily. The thread is a bit too long, meaning it is a huge challenge to both my English and your patience. Note: all datum below can be modified if needed. ------------------------------------------- My Orbital Center ◆ Has a maximum energy of 200. ◆ Can produce 2 units: 1.SCV (S). 2.Mule (M). cost: 25 mineral, 0 gas supply: 0 build time: 8 seconds (Note: mule has a permanent life) + Show Spoiler + Description: 1. Imagine that orbital center is protoss carrier, then mules are just interceptors that can only gather minerals rather than attack. 2. Mules are produced through a separate production line, meaning you can produce one SCV and one mule simultaneously in an Orbital Center. 3. Once a mule is ready, it will go out of the Orbital Center and gather minerals nearby automatically. (Just imagine what an interceptor will do when it is ready and there are enemy units around). 4. Mules gather minerals in a totally different way from that of SCVs, so they won't affect SCVs' mineral gathering and vice versa. One mule deals with two mineral patches at a time, bringing back 12 minerals every 15 seconds if it is at full capacity. You need 4 mules to fully cover a mineral line with 8 patches, and an Orbital Center can hold up to 5 mules. 5. The most important thing is that Mule have a maximum energy reserve of 20 points, and mineral-gathering cost it 10 energy per trip. Once there is not sufficient energy, mule will stand still, doing nothing but waiting for its energy to recover. 6. It is worth noting that mule's energy regenerates extremely slow, and won't regenerate at all when mining, therefore one of the Orbital Center's skill, the "Distant Energy Charge" is essential if you want to get the most out of mules. ◆ Has 4 skills: 1. Scan Sweep (C) - Target: anywhere on the map. (AOE) - Energy cost: 50 2. Production Acceleration (A) - Target: any of your production buildings, i.e. a command center, a barrack, a factory or a starport. - Energy cost: 75 + Show Spoiler + Description: 1. An example of how it works: Select an Orbital Center, press “A” and left click a factory, then the tank currently built in the factory will be produced 20% faster. 2. The acceleration effect fades away as soon as this tank is completed. 3. Distant Energy Charge (E) - Target: any allied unit having energy. (AOE) - Energy cost: 50 + Show Spoiler + Description: 1. How it works: Select an Orbital Center, press “C” and left click an allied psionic unit, then it will have up to 75 energy restored instantly, while other allied units around it will gain up to 25 energy. 2. Note: Once a unit is Energy-Charged, it cannot be charged again within 20 seconds. That is to say, if you "Energy Charge" a ghost three times in succession, it will only gain 75 energy at most rather than 225. 4. Reinforcing Drop Pod (D) - Target: any of your ground units, except for Thors and Mules. - Energy cost: 125. - Resource required: depends on use. - Supply required: depends on use, 4 at most. - Cool down: 60 seconds. (After your Command Center is upgraded into an Orbital Center, You have to wait 60 seconds before you can use this skill) + Show Spoiler + Description: 1. Use this skill on a single ground unit, then a drop pod will land nearby in seconds, from which spawns a small squad (taking up 4 supply at most) of the same units as the one you target. 2. This skill need not only energy but also minerals and maybe gas, which equal to the actual cost of the troops you summon. 3. Since the limit supply for a reinforcing troop is 4, you can call down a squad of one of the followings per drop: - 4 scvs or marines or reapers (4 supply); - 2 marauders or hellions (4 supply); - 1 ghost or tank (3 supply). 4. Examples of how it works: Select your Orbital Center, press D and left click a marine of your own, then you'll see a drop pod with 4 marines inside coming down from the sky. At least 200 minerals and 4 surplus supply are required. Doing the same thing on a tank will bring you a drop pod with 1 tank in it, costing 200 minerals / 100 gas and 3 supply. 5. The drop pod itself is a permanent structure with 200 hp that grant you visual field around. It won't disappear for no reason. 6. Note: if you cannot produce an unit, you cannot call down any of them. For example, Reinforcing Drop Pod won’t work at all if you use it on a ghost while all of your Ghost Academies are destroyed. More explanations about my macro mechanic: + Show Spoiler + 1. This macro mechanic focuses on not only mineral gathering, but also troop producing, decision making and tactics employing. I think it may add to the depth of the game as well as encourage exciting and even radical game play, while it is not hard to be balanced. 2.When watching battle report 3, Many of my friends who don't play Starcraft said that Terran's macro mechanic was kinda weird, you just called down an awesome drop pod, yet to see the dull mules coming out. And I myself think that things with a timed life such as the current mule are not of Terran style. Besides, the current Orbital skill, the "Supply Drop" is not useful and inventive enough that you cannot expect too much out of it. 3. The basic way to use the mechanic: Produce 4 mules as soon as possible then go back to your Orbital Center every 30 seconds, use "Instant Energy Charge" on a mule, to make sure that all mules in this mineral line are benefited as well, thus you can keep the mules working all the time and make the most out of them, to expect for a good amount of extra resource in return. 4. The basic way is far from being the only way, for you may often tend to use other skills, or use “Energy Charge” on other units. Here are several examples: + Show Spoiler + - You are plotting a high-tier unit rush, say a stupid Thor rush, you’ll be willing to invest 75 energy to the factory, so that Thor can come out 12 seconds earlier. - A big battle breaks out and your front position is in jeopardy, you’ll not hesitate a moment to calls down as many drop pod as possible, despite the massive energy cost. - You just suffered from a severe harassment, after which many of your SCVs were killed. Under such adverse circumstances, you’d use “reinforcing drop pod” to call down 4 additional SCVs, and even use “Production Acceleration” on your CCs to quickly recover your damaged economy. - You want to do a tank drop on the cliff near enemy base as early as possible. You may invest 75x2 energy on your factory and after that another 75 energy on your starport, to accelerate the production of both tanks and medivac dropship. After you successfully deploy two tanks on the cliff, you would like to see another tank coming down, so you’ll invest 125 energy to call down “Reinforcing Drop Pod” if your Orbital Center still has enough energy Combing the “Reinforcing Drop Pod” and “Production Acceleration” with your imagination means infinite tactics, while the “Distant Energy drop” is not Mules’ private treasure, it belongs to all units having energy. It may mean longer cloaking duration for ghosts/banshees, more hunter missiles for ravens, to be able utilize Yamato Cannon more often for battle cruisers, etc. So you may not deem it as a boring skill to just increase macro, I think even casual gamers may like it. 5. Note that Reinforcing Drop Pod cannot replace medivac dropship, for it only drop corresponding units near the current one, to say that you cannot call down a tank on the cliff if there’s no tank there, or you cannot call down SCVs on an island unless you have at least one SCV there. 6. You may realize from above that the new drop pod mechanic is not over-powered. It partly is a Terran answer to Protoss’ warp-in and Zerg’s Nydus cannel, not as powerful but still cool and useful. And the ability of Production Acceleration can be seen as a solution to MBS. Rather than hotkey all your barracks/factories/starports to a single key and click X repeatedly to produce units, you need interact more with production buildings if you want more from them, which is also an important part of macro, or more exactly here, the base management. 7. Adding to the mule mechanic, mules are Orbital Center’s “interceptors”, so all mules will return to its “Carrier” once OC lifted up; and if an OC is destroyed, all its mules will be killed too. Besides, one mule occupies one transportation slot, thus if you build 5 mules for an Orbital center, it won’t be able to transport SCVs anymore. 8. You don't have to go back to mineral lines and charge mules all the time. There is a upgrade called Neo Reactor in Fusion Core. After the research is completed, all Terran psionic units, inculding mules, will gain an additional restoration rate of 1 energy per second. Thus, mules will keep working by themselves most of the time. Any ideas? Btw, if you guys don’t find it annoying, I may post my Protoss and Zerg macro mechanics someday later. Instead of a Nexus ability for protoss, mine is an Orbital Center ability for Terran. I think Macro involves not only economy management, but also unit production, which further distinguish macro player and micro player. Zerg has larva injection and Protoss has warp gate, while Terran lacks similar mechanic that affect unit production significantly, so I implemented the "Production Acceleration" ablity on Terran OC. | ||
Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
It might help fight the early all in strats by the zergs, which is neat. | ||
NeoLearner
Belgium1847 Posts
On February 12 2010 06:15 onmach wrote: The only worry I have is that protoss bases will all be one big tight blob so that any building that might need to be rushed can be. Still, not bad. This is actually a very clever idea. I think this is better than mule now, in fact. If you scout and see a particular advanced building next to the nexus you'll have some small indication of what build they might be running. Nowhere in the original post does it mention a range. It could be a targeted ability of the Nexus. As it should be. I would like a visual indication of which building is Time Warped though. | ||
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On February 12 2010 17:29 skypacer wrote: I think Macro involves not only economy management, but also unit production, which further distinguish macro player and micro player. Zerg has larva injection and Protoss has warp gate, while Terran lacks similar mechanic that affect unit production significantly, ![]() | ||
Tom Phoenix
1114 Posts
Although I had my doubts about this mechanic initially, I am starting to believe that this is by far the best macro mechanic revealed so far. There are three reasons for this: 1. The mechanic affects ALL aspects of macromanagement and not just one specific area like Proton Charge did. This in itself causes it to have a lot of targetting tension, since the player must decide and balance between increased economic growth, increased unit production and accelerated tech. 2. As the economy increases, the difficulty of maintaining optimal macromanagement increases accordingly. With that, it fulfills the original aim of the macro mechanics to increase the multitasking and attention cost required to play at an optimal rate. 3. It neatly fits with build orders (even more so then the Obelisk) and makes the Nexus a much less of a bland building compared to the original. Plus, it provides for interesting metagame implications, where one can fool an enemy scout by using Time Warp on a building while doing something else entirely. Overall, if Blizzard can fine tune the rate at which Time Warp recharges, I think this mechanic is a keeper. I get goosebumps from simply thinking of the possibilities it provides. I now have even less regrets about Blizzard taking as much time as they need to develop the game, beacuse this beats out their previous concepts by far. That said, this only further increases the need for Blizzard to make the macro mechanics of the other two races just as impactful. As they stand currently, neither mechanic has enough tension to justify getting anything other then MULEs/Larva. This particularly applies to Zerg as they currently have all the benefits with little tension and choice. As this article mentions, there simply is no reason for Zerg not to get additional larva as the flexibility they provide is immense. I am starting to think that rather then provide additional larva, the mechanic should mutate existing larva that provide some sort of additional benefit (like increasing Drone or unit production). | ||
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