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The Obelisk is no longer in the game. Instead, the time warp ability which allows a building to produce or research faster for a set duration is now on the Nexus. This opens up several new strategies and the development team is really looking forward to what players will be able to come up with utilizing this ability during beta. -Karune
http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=23140464571&sid=3000
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source? thanks for that.
"Protoss can out-research the other two, or quickly build units if they have the large amount of resources needed... " taken from a dude on the forums. This sounds awesome. For those who missmacro.
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Holy shit this is a much cooler ability with a lot of tactical implications I'd assume. Especially if you don't have energy to cast it constantly. But that's probably not gonna be the case. Regardless, excellent change!
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I'm not sure how I feel about this ability, but it'll be nice to try and abuse it during beta
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United States7166 Posts
heh I just proposed a similar solution as an alternative to the spam-as-often-as-you-can 'macro mechanics'
assuming this is an ability that you can't cast often.. then this should be a much more interesting macro mechanic than "choose how to spend your energy! spread creep, regen +200 hp to 1 unit, or spawn 4 extra larvae, hmm...
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Wow, I have yet to play SC2, but imagine something like researching 0/0/1 or goon range with turbo-speed in SC1?
Sounds good.
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This is a good improvement (and also quite interesting). Now, protoss can't just make 5 Obelisks and abuse their mining bonus all day long, they have to make a choice: 1 nexus, or 2 nexus! I imagine that if only a nexus can use this ability, then if you REALLY want those extra minerals you would have to sacrifice a lot of minerals by investing in another nexus, which generally balances this disputable macro mechanic, Good Job Blizzard, we arze happy
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Luckily, it doesn't seem like a click every x seconds. Saving up energy and casting multiple spells at once is more of a possibility than other macro abilities, such as the queen's larva inject. I hope we see some dual robo facilities -> immortal/colossus rushes.
Also I hope the range is decent so players don't have to clump all their buildings around the nexus.
Thanks for the info.
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I wonder what kind of range restrictions it has. Goodbye hidden tech
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So basically this ability allows you to channel faster time into units or research.
Proton Charge allows you to channel minerals into units or research or buildings or supply or....
The big thing here is that their is something about the communities pyschi that thinks they are getting new and more options. They had trouble understanding that more minerals means more choices but now that its relabled "time" their excited.
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On February 12 2010 05:04 Archerofaiur wrote: So basically this ability allows you to channel faster time into units or research.
Proton Charge allows you to channel minerals into units or research or buildings or supply or....
The big thing here is that their is something about the communities pyschi that thinks they are getting new and more options. They had trouble understanding that more minerals means more choices but now that its relabled "time" their excited. With an option for faster tech/research you're opening up new build order varieties with lots of hopefully interesting timings. With more money you're going to follow a similar build order and just do it faster.
Hopefully both of those options are available, creating a large mix of greedy econ builds and fast aggressive builds.
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United States2822 Posts
On February 12 2010 05:04 Archerofaiur wrote: So basically this ability allows you to channel faster time into units or research.
Proton Charge allows you to channel minerals into units or research or buildings or supply or....
The big thing here is that their is something about the communities pyschi that thinks they are getting new and more options. They had trouble understanding that more minerals means more choices but now that its relabled "time" their excited. I disagree with you. Time is a resource that's much more volatile than minerals or gas in the game and this ability could have serious strategic implications for high-level Protoss play.
Now they just need to revamp the Surveillance Station.
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You guys do realize that Protoss already have faster unit production (Warpgates).
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On February 12 2010 05:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You guys do realize that Protoss already have faster unit production (Warpgates). You don't choose to speed up production with warp gates. You just do it. There's no reason for a good player to not use warp gates.
Ideally there is another ability (PC?) conflicting with faster tech (tech is my main interest in this), and I don't see the nexus' ability being used for faster production unless it's an insane boost or you're on the verge of dying.
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Is this ability something that the player would have to research for or would it be made available at the start? I can see ahead to a bunch of quick zeal rushes.
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energy tension is no longer an issue. Good work blizzard! I think some one mentioned something almost exactly like this on one of the threads a few weeks back. This either means that Blizzard reads these forums much more thoroughly then I thought they did and learns from them or there was a leak/freak coincidence. EDIT: www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=108753
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On February 12 2010 05:18 Malingo wrote: energy tension is no longer an issue. Good work blizzard! I think some one mentioned something almost exactly like this on one of the threads a few weeks back. This either means that Blizzard reads these forums much more thoroughly then I thought they did and learns from them or there was a leak/freak coincidence. Apparently this has been a common suggestion because I suggested this ability for the obelisk last August and Archer suggested it for the obelisk in '08.
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That doesn't increase speed
that increases strategic opportunities by being able to warp in any spot (proxies and such)
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This also creates an interesting competition with terran macro mechanics. Economy or fast tech vs. economy or intel. The new protoss threats this introduces may have just made comsat a lot more valuable.
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I like this a lot if it's not cooldown based and you can save up. Otherwise, it's bad but still better than proton charge.
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To be honest, I am not sure how much I like this. On one hand, it does have interesting implications as far as build orders are concerned and makes the Nexus a lot more important of a structure. Plus, in a sense, it does increase the amount of macromanagement involved since you will want to maximise the speed at which units are produced. Infact, the amount of multitasking required to maintain optimal production seems to scale with how big your production is. Plus, it also has more potential uses then the Obelisk.
On the other, however, I am not certain if it is a good idea to have the mechanic completely seperate from resource gathering. It could be that I am just not used to the idea yet. But Terran and Zerg both have mechanics (MULE and Spawn Mutant Larva) that have potential affects on mining. The Protoss currently do not have anything like that.
I do not know. I can see the potential, but I am worried if the lack of mining implications will have negative consenquences.
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Protoss produce and research faster wow. That makes the races even more diverse.
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On February 12 2010 05:43 Tom Phoenix wrote: I do not know. I can see the potential, but I am worried if the lack of mining implications will have negative consenquences.
Presumably you can increase the probe production out of the nexus.
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On February 12 2010 05:49 Forty-two wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2010 05:43 Tom Phoenix wrote: I do not know. I can see the potential, but I am worried if the lack of mining implications will have negative consenquences. Presumably you can increase the probe production out of the nexus.
Oh. Wow, I did not think of that. When you put it in those terms, it seems a lot more appealing. Plus, it seems to affect all aspects of macromanagement and provides for a lot of tensions between the options.
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So the Nexus can increase production / upgrade speed of anything? Sounds amazing!
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At first sight seems imba o.o The zerg needs some imba-sounding/epic/easily abusable abilities or units too TT.TT
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It's like a weaker spawn larva when it comes to economy/army production. Faster tech makes up for it though.
I like it though, it looks a lot better than proton charge, more choice to be made.
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On February 12 2010 05:58 Abenson wrote: At first sight seems imba o.o The zerg needs some imba-sounding/epic/easily abusable abilities or units too TT.TT With the queen the zerg could instantly start production of 14 mutalisks off of two hatcheries. Does that sound epic enough? :s
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On February 12 2010 05:20 Tsagacity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2010 05:18 Malingo wrote: energy tension is no longer an issue. Good work blizzard! I think some one mentioned something almost exactly like this on one of the threads a few weeks back. This either means that Blizzard reads these forums much more thoroughly then I thought they did and learns from them or there was a leak/freak coincidence. Apparently this has been a common suggestion because I suggested this ability for the obelisk last August and Archer suggested it for the obelisk in '08.
Obelisk wasnt around in '08 but yah it was in my second thesis. I even think some people might have floated similar ideas before that even.
Needless to say its a very old idea from the beginning of the Macro Revolution.
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I like the concept of it because it further differentiates the races more. Before, the Terran and Protoss mechanics were very similar to each other with Zerg being the only original one, but now we have a unique function for every race. I look forward to the ridiculous DT rushes that are sure to come from this thing.
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Absolutely love this idea. I also seconded this idea a while back in a previous forum. It makes sense for protoss in every way. When beta starts we'll find out if it needs tweaking or an extra research to activate, but in all, i'm very hopeful for good results. It fulfills all the requirements of what a macro mechanic should be. Makes it easier to pump buildings which will increase production. Extra use for speeding tech timing. Doesn't penalize you a ton for NOT using it. Gives you a distinct timing advantage for using it while being distinct from the other two mechanics.
All the macro mechanics eventually equate to timing somehow. Whether it is to gain "X" minerals to gain an "Y" army at "Z" time in the game. Or gain "X" larvae to get drones to get your "Y" army at "Z" time. Or increase building and research time by "X" to get "Y" army at "Z" time. It's a different way to get to "Z" but distinct and enjoyable for each race.
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On February 12 2010 06:01 Tsagacity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2010 05:58 Abenson wrote: At first sight seems imba o.o The zerg needs some imba-sounding/epic/easily abusable abilities or units too TT.TT With the queen the zerg could instantly start production of 14 mutalisks off of two hatcheries. Does that sound epic enough? :s
Yes, yes it does Or instantly saturate the natural or the third. Really looking forward to it.
On February 12 2010 06:01 Spawkuring wrote: I look forward to the ridiculous DT rushes that are sure to come from this thing.
About the DT rush, it's not going to come out that much faster, does it? I mean, you still have to build the tech buildings to climb the tech tree and they can't be sped up?
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On February 12 2010 06:10 NeoLearner wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2010 06:01 Tsagacity wrote:On February 12 2010 05:58 Abenson wrote: At first sight seems imba o.o The zerg needs some imba-sounding/epic/easily abusable abilities or units too TT.TT With the queen the zerg could instantly start production of 14 mutalisks off of two hatcheries. Does that sound epic enough? :s Yes, yes it does  Or instantly saturate the natural or the third. Really looking forward to it. Show nested quote +On February 12 2010 06:01 Spawkuring wrote: I look forward to the ridiculous DT rushes that are sure to come from this thing. About the DT rush, it's not going to come out that much faster, does it? I mean, you still have to build the tech buildings to climb the tech tree and they can't be sped up?
Ahh, I didn't realize that it doesn't speed up building production. Still, I can see people abuse it in order to cheese. It will be pretty fun I imagine.
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The only worry I have is that protoss bases will all be one big tight blob so that any building that might need to be rushed can be. Still, not bad. This is actually a very clever idea. I think this is better than mule now, in fact.
If you scout and see a particular advanced building next to the nexus you'll have some small indication of what build they might be running.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Sup? From a December thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=108753
Nexus spell: Speed Warp by SWPIGWANG
Increase the speed where the target building builds, builds units and research upgrades by 20%. It lasts 25 seconds and has a cooldown of 30 seconds and its effect is shown graphically with a beam channeling power from the nexus to the target. The spell has a range of 14 tiles. Can target the nexus itself.
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lol seriously though, mess off with protoss and start with zerg, lol blizzard is so excited to add mystical features to protoss theyre forgetting that it's about all 3 races
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Pretty nice but did thia affect all building ? or only 1 you choose ?
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The best part about this is it changes Protoss macro mechanics from exponential to linear, like Zerg and Terran.
I forget which thread it was, but some guy pointed out that protoss get ridiculously overpowered late game with proton charge (he had graphs and stuff), this gives more interesting strategy and makes the game balanced. Great Idea Blizz!
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On February 12 2010 06:53 WoodenSpider wrote: The best part about this is it changes Protoss macro mechanics from exponential to linear, like Zerg and Terran.
I forget which thread it was, but some guy pointed out that protoss get ridiculously overpowered late game with proton charge (he had graphs and stuff), this gives more interesting strategy and makes the game balanced. Great Idea Blizz! That was Demosquid and a bunch of people proved he was wrong (even though he had pretty graphs and stuff).
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This is a great idea, but as others have said, there cant be a range limit on the ability, otherwise some of the interesting possibilities get taken out, like fast proxy's. The ability also needs to be able to work on the nexus itself, so that probe production can be increased. But this does seem to be a step in the right direction.
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Definitely interesting, and will open up some very interesting and complex builds, I definitely like it.
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Interesting stuff. Guess when beta starts all of lucky ones who gets to play it will be toss. PvP ftw :p
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On February 12 2010 05:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You guys do realize that Protoss already have faster unit production (Warpgates).
They changed that at the last Blizzcon so units would take longer to spawn from warping in opposed to building them.
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On February 12 2010 07:44 Mazar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2010 05:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You guys do realize that Protoss already have faster unit production (Warpgates). They changed that at the last Blizzcon so units would take longer to spawn from warping in opposed to building them.
So Warp-In now takes longer than regular production?
Source?
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If that change is true, the Starcraft Wiki definitely never caught it.
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Imo, it will be hard to zerg to deal with that because with his Psyonic Storm, zerg will lose a lot of unit and will take some time to regain it, but for toss if zerg made to kill his army it will not take some time to get a big ball of unit and crush zerg.
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What I am wondering is exactly HOW much faster it makes stuff research. A super quick +1 zealot push against Zerg would be downright murder.
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This sounds really cool im looking foward to it. Can you say PROBE RUSH XD
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On February 12 2010 07:59 Mohdoo wrote: What I am wondering is exactly HOW much faster it makes stuff research. A super quick +1 zealot push against Zerg would be downright murder.
1998: Zerg rush
2???: Protoss rush???
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This is a very good and interesting macro mechanic. Loosing an expansion (especially in early game) would be a lot more devastating for a Protoss macro wise, (tho no more than Terran) however this mechanic is a lot less susceptible to harass than the Obelisk would have been or the Queen is.
I would argue that Protoss do not need a mineral or gas income mechanic at all. Why would that give them a disadvantage compared to Zerg and Terran? All you need to do is change unit/building costs for Protoss so that not having this ability is non issue.
I would also argue that no energy tension is required for this mechanic and that there is no problem with this being the ONLY ability the Nexus has. Who says every race needs energy tension for their macro mechanic? The tension for the Protoss mechanic comes in the form of ability targeting. Your choice to target a production facility for increased production, or a tech building for faster tech is a huge tactical decision to make and is very situational to the play at hand. To further emphasise this once you have decided Tech for example which Tech building you choose is a further important tactical choice.
This ability may also have some good meta-game implications. Assuming there is a visual effect over effected buildings you could for example Cast it on your Twilight council to misdirect your opponent into thinking you are Teching Charge or Blink and then create a Robo Bay and produce Colossus at a proxy location to throw off your opponents counter build. Trading a military or tech advantage for build misinformation.
I will be interested to see if this can be used to further increase the warp-in speed of a warp-gate or if it only effects Gateways, Stargate and Robo Facility. I am also interested to see how early this ability can be accessed. I assume it will be a Cyber core unlock.
1 more thing... try not to assume imba... If there were was no way to tweak the ability for balance it would not be in the game. Just makes you look silly.
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I would like to have a moment of silence for our fallen friend.
R.I.P. Obelisk
We hardly knew ye.
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On February 12 2010 04:50 Lobbo wrote: source? thanks for that.
"Protoss can out-research the other two, or quickly build units if they have the large amount of resources needed... " taken from a dude on the forums. This sounds awesome. For those who missmacro.
And even better for those you macro well
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Protoss getting all Zergy in SC2
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Totally just gonna be using this for mass probe production, if the nexus can target itself :D
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On February 12 2010 10:29 Archerofaiur wrote:I would like to have a moment of silence for our fallen friend. R.I.P. Obelisk
We hardly knew ye.
Now now, we'll probably still see in the editor and Protoss campaign. Although something tells me that it'll be used for Tower Defense maps.
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Now they just need to fix the Terran macro mechanic =\ I don't want to get split between scan or mule
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If this ability has a range then Protoss bases will most likely be a tight little blob, which will be more susceptible to nukes. And I think most people agree that nukes are supposed to be easier to pull off than in SC1 if BR4 is anything (reliable) to go by. That'd be more interesting though...seeing nukes more often in a non-humiliation way.
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I think this is a really cool mechanic... I wonder what the specific stats on it are (how much energy does it cost to cast, what %, is it available right away? etc.)
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On February 12 2010 11:52 Nub4ever wrote:Now they just need to fix the Terran macro mechanic =\ I don't want to get split between scan or mule There is nothing wrong with the Terran mechanics. You being split between scan and MULE....kind of the point.
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On February 12 2010 12:17 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2010 11:52 Nub4ever wrote:Now they just need to fix the Terran macro mechanic =\ I don't want to get split between scan or mule There is nothing wrong with the Terran mechanics. You being split between scan and MULE....kind of the point.
Is supply call down still only +2 supply? If it was like 75 energy for +10 supply instantly, it could make for some interesting timing attacks in a similar fashion to time warp, I think. Well, 75 energy for +10 is just some random numbers I picked, just make it much more attractive is all, instead of "oops I forgot to build a supply depot, I'll hurt myself economically or through lack of scouting to make up for it, slightly!"
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Calldown Supply is now +8.
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On February 12 2010 12:17 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2010 11:52 Nub4ever wrote:Now they just need to fix the Terran macro mechanic =\ I don't want to get split between scan or mule There is nothing wrong with the Terran mechanics. You being split between scan and MULE....kind of the point.
There is a lot of things wrong with Terran mechanics. Like being it the most boring and uninspired from all races. Especially the "amazing" ability to create more supply or the very "original" scanner.
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Good. It may not seem as attractive as scan/MULE right now, but I think it could be used for some cool strategies in the future for sure. Smaller maps might let you skip a depot and get just that many more units out quicker, for nice timing rushes etc.
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On February 12 2010 12:28 adelarge wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2010 12:17 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 12 2010 11:52 Nub4ever wrote:Now they just need to fix the Terran macro mechanic =\ I don't want to get split between scan or mule There is nothing wrong with the Terran mechanics. You being split between scan and MULE....kind of the point. There is a lot of things wrong with Terran mechanics. Like being it the most boring and uninspired from all races. Especially the "amazing" ability to create more supply or the very "original" scanner. Ummm maybe your missing the robot you can calldown anywhere that will harvest minerals at epic rates. Id say thats a hell of allot more "inspired" than oh more larva.
Also Ive got some good feelings about calldown supply. Its unique, helps new players learn the game, has strategic value, contributes in both lore, racial identity and visual impressions....
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On February 12 2010 05:18 Malingo wrote:energy tension is no longer an issue. Good work blizzard! I think some one mentioned something almost exactly like this on one of the threads a few weeks back. This either means that Blizzard reads these forums much more thoroughly then I thought they did and learns from them or there was a leak/freak coincidence. EDIT: www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=108753 -_________-
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I think more larva, at the very least, makes Zerg seem more Zerg-y. Being able to spawn lots of units quickly. It would be nice if there was an actual decision to make there though, instead of ones that are very situational, rather than planned (I need to heal this spine crawler all of a sudden! for example).
Also, at least now all 3 macro mechanics aren't necessarily just click and get more minerals, since Zerg will use theirs for more attacking units (like the 1 hatch queen hydra build), Protoss can do much different timing rushes (I hope there's a visual on the building time warp is affecting though), and Terran have 3 viable options (of varying degrees, however).
Very excited to see how this all plays out. Almost made me forget for a second that the first month will be full of swinging balance changes and whining and the macro mechanics probably won't get heavy theorizing until things settle down a bit.
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wow so many big changes this late, and beta is coming soon
you can imagine how many imbalances there will be in this game, and it won't be "all races are equal" in starcraft 2
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On February 12 2010 12:32 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2010 12:28 adelarge wrote:On February 12 2010 12:17 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 12 2010 11:52 Nub4ever wrote:Now they just need to fix the Terran macro mechanic =\ I don't want to get split between scan or mule There is nothing wrong with the Terran mechanics. You being split between scan and MULE....kind of the point. There is a lot of things wrong with Terran mechanics. Like being it the most boring and uninspired from all races. Especially the "amazing" ability to create more supply or the very "original" scanner. Ummm maybe your missing the robot you can calldown anywhere that will harvest minerals at epic rates. Id say thats a hell of allot more "inspired" than oh more larva. Also Ive got some good feelings about calldown supply. Its unique, helps new players learn the game, has strategic value, contributes in both lore, racial identity and visual impressions....
No, I know about mules, that's why I wrote "especially". I consider mules rather average. If they have some sort of unique ability I would consider them great. Something which could help your forces in offence or whatever. But I guess that would be asking too much.
And I just don't get that feelings. Hopefully beta proves me wrong...
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On February 12 2010 12:46 Nal_rAwr wrote: wow so many big changes this late, and beta is coming soon
you can imagine how many imbalances there will be in this game, and it won't be "all races are equal" in starcraft 2
There will be more big changes in beta, I can assure you of that! Beta is certainly not just little tweaks!
Anyway, for the Zerg queen, it's not very unique, but maybe the option to allow them to speed up a building morphing in would be nice... Make it so she must "channel it", or stand next to the building to do so... So you can't keep up with spawn larva while doing so.
It's a very simple idea and one that's been thrown around for various races, but it would definitely solve some qualms about Zerg's macro mechanic being too obviously used on spawn larva!
edit: and obviously would open up some neat strategies for the queen... maybe make it researchable at the spawning pool (Spawn building faster!) to avoid ultra fast Zergling rushes. And it's different than the new Protoss mechanic, since it only affects buildings, while theirs affects research/production)
:/
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On February 12 2010 12:48 adelarge wrote: I consider mules rather average. If they have some sort of unique ability I would consider them great.
They can harvest minerals at freaking insane speeds man! Hows that for unique!
Something which could help your forces in offence or whatever.... Youll be happy to know there are plenty of other "shooty" units in SC2.
On February 12 2010 12:52 SoleSteeler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2010 12:46 Nal_rAwr wrote: wow so many big changes this late, and beta is coming soon
you can imagine how many imbalances there will be in this game, and it won't be "all races are equal" in starcraft 2 There will be more big changes in beta, I can assure you of that! Beta is certainly not just little tweaks! Anyway, for the Zerg queen, it's not very unique, but maybe the option to allow them to speed up a building morphing in would be nice... Make it so she must "channel it", or stand next to the building to do so... So you can't keep up with spawn larva while doing so. It's a very simple idea and one that's been thrown around for various races, but it would definitely solve some qualms about Zerg's macro mechanic being too obviously used on spawn larva! :/
Im pushing for a Zerg Gas advantage ability.
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On February 12 2010 12:53 Archerofaiur wrote: Im pushing for a Zerg Gas advantage ability.
I'd be fine with that. Anything to give the Zerg a different and interesting alternative to Spawn Larva.
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Is this just me or is this going to make protoss much more zerglike. They have a pressure to take more bases , especially with the resource disadvantage they are goign to have atleast in the earlygame against a extra larva/ drone producing zerg and eventually a min boosted terran.
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Oh man I thought of that instantly! Now you can get to see if it works as well as you theorized it could. (perhaps second hand from videos if you didn't get a beta key)
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On February 12 2010 13:00 Sabu113 wrote: Is this just me or is this going to make protoss much more zerglike. They have a pressure to take more bases , especially with the resource disadvantage they are goign to have atleast in the earlygame against a extra larva/ drone producing zerg and eventually a min boosted terran. i'm hoping that they will circumvent this by only allowing the ability to activate once, and the nexus positioning limits the casting range. this should prevent it
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Oh cool, Blizzard actually saw that idea. I hope they try the time bubble modification I suggested in that thread too.
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I remember reading that thread. I thought it was a great Idea then and stilll believe so now. Good suggestion.
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that actually looks really cool. i like the replacement tbh
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On February 12 2010 04:49 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +The Obelisk is no longer in the game. Instead, the time warp ability which allows a building to produce or research faster for a set duration is now on the Nexus. This opens up several new strategies and the development team is really looking forward to what players will be able to come up with utilizing this ability during beta. -Karune You know what...
... that sounds sorta kinda like what I suggested two months ago...
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=106806¤tpage=2#39
+ Show Spoiler +Idea for a replacement for the Obelisk (let's face it, the Obelisk was all about Proton Charge anyway):
Protoss Starbase Link
The Protoss Starbase Link is a building enhancement that turns a production building into a Starbase, bypassing all the tolls and red tape normally associated with interstellar travel. With this enhancement, buildings can speed up and drastically reduce the cost of summoning reinforcements from space.
Once a Protoss player obtains Gateway tech, every Nexus will generate a single Starbase Link that a Probe can take and install on the following buildings: Gateway, Stargate, Robotics Facility. This link will power up the selected building, reducing costs by X (where X is determined through gameplay balancing) and speeding up unit production by Y. At the same time, the building will suffer from the psionic strain this link causes, and after Z amount of units produced, the link will cease to function until a Probe retrieves it and reinstalls it on a different building.
If a building with the Starbase Link is destroyed, or a Probe carrying the link is destroyed, the Nexus that created it will have to reestablish the link, which takes time.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 12 2010 15:07 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2010 04:49 Archerofaiur wrote:The Obelisk is no longer in the game. Instead, the time warp ability which allows a building to produce or research faster for a set duration is now on the Nexus. This opens up several new strategies and the development team is really looking forward to what players will be able to come up with utilizing this ability during beta. -Karune You know what... ... that sounds sorta kinda like what I suggested two months ago... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=106806¤tpage=2#39+ Show Spoiler +Idea for a replacement for the Obelisk (let's face it, the Obelisk was all about Proton Charge anyway):
Protoss Starbase Link
The Protoss Starbase Link is a building enhancement that turns a production building into a Starbase, bypassing all the tolls and red tape normally associated with interstellar travel. With this enhancement, buildings can speed up and drastically reduce the cost of summoning reinforcements from space.
Once a Protoss player obtains Gateway tech, every Nexus will generate a single Starbase Link that a Probe can take and install on the following buildings: Gateway, Stargate, Robotics Facility. This link will power up the selected building, reducing costs by X (where X is determined through gameplay balancing) and speeding up unit production by Y. At the same time, the building will suffer from the psionic strain this link causes, and after Z amount of units produced, the link will cease to function until a Probe retrieves it and reinstalls it on a different building.
If a building with the Starbase Link is destroyed, or a Probe carrying the link is destroyed, the Nexus that created it will have to reestablish the link, which takes time. Just curious, why didn't you allow Nexus as one of your original Starbase Link buildings? Increased probe production seems like it's at least worth consideration.
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On February 12 2010 15:11 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2010 15:07 Zato-1 wrote:On February 12 2010 04:49 Archerofaiur wrote:The Obelisk is no longer in the game. Instead, the time warp ability which allows a building to produce or research faster for a set duration is now on the Nexus. This opens up several new strategies and the development team is really looking forward to what players will be able to come up with utilizing this ability during beta. -Karune You know what... ... that sounds sorta kinda like what I suggested two months ago... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=106806¤tpage=2#39+ Show Spoiler +Idea for a replacement for the Obelisk (let's face it, the Obelisk was all about Proton Charge anyway):
Protoss Starbase Link
The Protoss Starbase Link is a building enhancement that turns a production building into a Starbase, bypassing all the tolls and red tape normally associated with interstellar travel. With this enhancement, buildings can speed up and drastically reduce the cost of summoning reinforcements from space.
Once a Protoss player obtains Gateway tech, every Nexus will generate a single Starbase Link that a Probe can take and install on the following buildings: Gateway, Stargate, Robotics Facility. This link will power up the selected building, reducing costs by X (where X is determined through gameplay balancing) and speeding up unit production by Y. At the same time, the building will suffer from the psionic strain this link causes, and after Z amount of units produced, the link will cease to function until a Probe retrieves it and reinstalls it on a different building.
If a building with the Starbase Link is destroyed, or a Probe carrying the link is destroyed, the Nexus that created it will have to reestablish the link, which takes time. Just curious, why didn't you allow Nexus as one of your original Starbase Link buildings? Increased probe production seems like it's at least worth consideration. I was basing myself on MULE calldown. Terrans can get more minerals; what can they do with these additional minerals? Well, mostly build more buildings (Barracks, Factories, Supply Depots), and make more units (Marines, Marauders, Tanks, etc). So, I thought of a different way of emulating a similar end-result; getting the Protoss to produce more Zealots, Stalkers and Colossi.
Those units cost: Build Time from a building (you're not getting extra minerals so you have the same amount of buildings as you would without a macro mechanic), and resources. Therefore, instead of giving you more resources, this would reduce expenses by an amount equivalent to what having those resources would've yielded.
So, instead of asking 'why not probes?', I took the approach of, 'Let's give the Protoss something similar to what Terrans get'. There are some differences still-
Terran can take advantage of his extra minerals to build an earlier expansion CC, Protoss couldn't. Protoss could speed up production of key units as soon as the prerequisite tech becomes available- remember how Colossi take forever to build in those SC2 Battle Reports? You could get a fast Phoenix for harassing, fast Colossi, or faster Observers if there are cloaked units in your base and you're lacking detection.
As far as I can tell, the biggest differences between what I suggested and Blizzard is currently employing are:
- Protoss will be poorer/will employ fewer production buildings. The only way this macro mechanic is increasing your income is if you build more probes with it, and even that takes time to kick in (kind of like investing on an expansion, but on a smaller scale)- compare that to MULES which give you minerals, no questions asked, right away. The flipside is that Protoss can choose to be super greedy and supercharge his economy if his opponent allows him to.
- Faster research. I only see this being an issue with Charge and Blink really, other research options like Psi Storm won't significantly speed up your psi storm acquisition because you still need those Templars to come out and have enough energy.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 12 2010 15:39 Zato-1 wrote: - Protoss will be poorer/will employ fewer production buildings. The only way this macro mechanic is increasing your income is if you build more probes with it, and even that takes time to kick in (kind of like investing on an expansion, but on a smaller scale)- compare that to MULES which give you minerals, no questions asked, right away. The flipside is that Protoss can choose to be super greedy and supercharge his economy if his opponent allows him to. The first thing that came to mind with the bolded statement was the Queen's Spawn Larva. Conceptual overlap with *both* other macro mechanics seems better than with a single one.
On February 12 2010 15:39 Zato-1 wrote: - Faster research. I only see this being an issue with Charge and Blink really, other research options like Psi Storm won't significantly speed up your psi storm acquisition because you still need those Templars to come out and have enough energy. There's the critical fact that it can be used on attack upgrades, which, if the numbers are tweaked properly, and interactions like +1 attack for Protoss vs. Zerg exist, it could still be potentially powerful.
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On February 12 2010 15:49 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2010 15:39 Zato-1 wrote: - Protoss will be poorer/will employ fewer production buildings. The only way this macro mechanic is increasing your income is if you build more probes with it, and even that takes time to kick in (kind of like investing on an expansion, but on a smaller scale)- compare that to MULES which give you minerals, no questions asked, right away. The flipside is that Protoss can choose to be super greedy and supercharge his economy if his opponent allows him to. The first thing that came to mind with the bolded statement was the Queen's Spawn Larva. Conceptual overlap with *both* other macro mechanics seems better than with a single one. Hm. You make a good point.
On February 12 2010 15:49 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2010 15:39 Zato-1 wrote: - Faster research. I only see this being an issue with Charge and Blink really, other research options like Psi Storm won't significantly speed up your psi storm acquisition because you still need those Templars to come out and have enough energy. There's the critical fact that it can be used on attack upgrades, which, if the numbers are tweaked properly, and interactions like +1 attack for Protoss vs. Zerg exist, it could still be potentially powerful. Are you sure of this? The blue quote only mentions research, which as far as I'm concerned is in a different category to upgrades (e.g. in BW, mind controlling an enemy corsair with 3/3 upgrades, D-Web and Argus Jewel, would give you the D-Web and Argus Jewel research, but not the 3/3 upgrades). If faster upgrades were allowed, then a faster +1 attack could indeed be a big deal vs. Zerg, I guess it would depend on how easy / fast it is to get Banelings.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 12 2010 16:05 Zato-1 wrote: Are you sure of this? The blue quote only mentions research, which as far as I'm concerned is in a different category to upgrades (e.g. in BW, mind controlling an enemy corsair with 3/3 upgrades, D-Web and Argus Jewel, would give you the D-Web and Argus Jewel research, but not the 3/3 upgrades). If faster upgrades were allowed, then a faster +1 attack could indeed be a big deal vs. Zerg, I guess it would depend on how easy / fast it is to get Banelings. This is really picking at the wording, but Karune uses "research" as a verb. You research both tech and upgrades, and I've heard plenty of people use research as the verb for both. Not to mention, that Starcraft has some grey area as to what is tech and what is an upgrade (Obviously psi storm is tech and +1 attack is an upgrade, but what about templar energy? Marine range? Shuttle speed? Reaver attack? Ultralisk armor?).
Either way, we're both making blind speculation.
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Can you build probes while the Nexus is doing this? I think it'd be cool if doing this forced you to stop probe production.
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On February 12 2010 16:10 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2010 16:05 Zato-1 wrote: Are you sure of this? The blue quote only mentions research, which as far as I'm concerned is in a different category to upgrades (e.g. in BW, mind controlling an enemy corsair with 3/3 upgrades, D-Web and Argus Jewel, would give you the D-Web and Argus Jewel research, but not the 3/3 upgrades). If faster upgrades were allowed, then a faster +1 attack could indeed be a big deal vs. Zerg, I guess it would depend on how easy / fast it is to get Banelings. This is really picking at the wording, but Karune uses "research" as a verb. You research both tech and upgrades, and I've heard plenty of people use research as the verb for both. Not to mention, that Starcraft has some grey area as to what is tech and what is an upgrade (Obviously psi storm is tech and +1 attack is an upgrade, but what about templar energy? Marine range? Shuttle speed? Reaver attack? Ultralisk armor?). Either way, we're both making blind speculation. As far as BW is concerned? +1/+2/+3 attack, armor and psi shield upgrades of all kinds are upgrades, everything else is a research (including chitinous plating for +2 ultralisk armor).
Still, I'm happy Proton Charge was replaced. Getting choices and decisions is better than mindlessly spamming your 'more minerals' ability. Early on in the game, these choices will be streamlined into Build Orders so the decision-making part won't be as pronounced, but it should be interesting to see what happens as the game goes into the midgame and you have to adapt to circumstances. I'm guessing this new spell on the Nexus will have a max casting range- what will you do with your expansions? Will we see Warp Gates and Templar Archives at expansions now, to take advantage of all of your Time Warps? I'm curious as to whether players will end up building the Protoss tech tree and production buildings spread out among their bases rather than having everything at the main.
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On February 12 2010 16:20 FabledIntegral wrote: Can you build probes while the Nexus is doing this? I think it'd be cool if doing this forced you to stop probe production. From the limited info we have, I think it's extremely likely that the Nexus would not have to stop making Probes in order to use this ability.
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Yay finally, the obelisk was really out of place
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On December 28 2009 03:04 Fontong wrote: Pig wang, this mechanic is pretty strange because of the range limitation. It is a sign that is already a very forced an unnatural mechanic for protoss. The strategic effects are far reaching and range from annulling the usefulness of proxies to making a build similar to the forge first FE in SC1 much weaker because you cannot speed buildings more than 14 range away.
luckily it wont be in the game. thank god
LoL
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United States47024 Posts
On February 12 2010 16:24 Zato-1 wrote: As far as BW is concerned? +1/+2/+3 attack, armor and psi shield upgrades of all kinds are upgrades, everything else is a research (including chitinous plating for +2 ultralisk armor). I always went by the game's criteria. If the adjutant/Overmind/Aldaris say "upgrade complete", then it's an upgrade, and if they say "research complete" it's research. This puts stuff like marine range and vulture speed under the upgrade category.
This is, of course, a massive digression.
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I proposed a similar macro solution called "Production Acceleration" before. Here it is: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=97663 + Show Spoiler +The core of my Terran macro mechanic is still the Orbital Center, so if you could understand how my OC works, you’d get what I say easily. The thread is a bit too long, meaning it is a huge challenge to both my English and your patience. Note: all datum below can be modified if needed. ------------------------------------------- My Orbital Center ◆ Has a maximum energy of 200. ◆ Can produce 2 units: 1. SCV (S). 2. Mule (M). cost: 25 mineral, 0 gas supply: 0build time: 8 seconds (Note: mule has a permanent life) + Show Spoiler +Description:
1. Imagine that orbital center is protoss carrier, then mules are just interceptors that can only gather minerals rather than attack.
2. Mules are produced through a separate production line, meaning you can produce one SCV and one mule simultaneously in an Orbital Center.
3. Once a mule is ready, it will go out of the Orbital Center and gather minerals nearby automatically. (Just imagine what an interceptor will do when it is ready and there are enemy units around).
4. Mules gather minerals in a totally different way from that of SCVs, so they won't affect SCVs' mineral gathering and vice versa.
One mule deals with two mineral patches at a time, bringing back 12 minerals every 15 seconds if it is at full capacity. You need 4 mules to fully cover a mineral line with 8 patches, and an Orbital Center can hold up to 5 mules.
5. The most important thing is that Mule have a maximum energy reserve of 20 points, and mineral-gathering cost it 10 energy per trip. Once there is not sufficient energy, mule will stand still, doing nothing but waiting for its energy to recover.
6. It is worth noting that mule's energy regenerates extremely slow, and won't regenerate at all when mining, therefore one of the Orbital Center's skill, the "Distant Energy Charge" is essential if you want to get the most out of mules. ◆ Has 4 skills: 1. Scan Sweep (C) - Target: anywhere on the map. (AOE) - Energy cost: 50 2. Production Acceleration (A) - Target: any of your production buildings, i.e. a command center, a barrack, a factory or a starport. - Energy cost: 75 + Show Spoiler +Description:
1. An example of how it works: Select an Orbital Center, press “A” and left click a factory, then the tank currently built in the factory will be produced 20% faster.
2. The acceleration effect fades away as soon as this tank is completed.
3. Distant Energy Charge (E) - Target: any allied unit having energy. (AOE) - Energy cost: 50 + Show Spoiler +Description:
1. How it works: Select an Orbital Center, press “C” and left click an allied psionic unit, then it will have up to 75 energy restored instantly, while other allied units around it will gain up to 25 energy.
2. Note: Once a unit is Energy-Charged, it cannot be charged again within 20 seconds. That is to say, if you "Energy Charge" a ghost three times in succession, it will only gain 75 energy at most rather than 225. 4. Reinforcing Drop Pod (D) - Target: any of your ground units, except for Thors and Mules. - Energy cost: 125. - Resource required: depends on use. - Supply required: depends on use, 4 at most. - Cool down: 60 seconds. (After your Command Center is upgraded into an Orbital Center, You have to wait 60 seconds before you can use this skill) + Show Spoiler +Description:
1. Use this skill on a single ground unit, then a drop pod will land nearby in seconds, from which spawns a small squad (taking up 4 supply at most) of the same units as the one you target.
2. This skill need not only energy but also minerals and maybe gas, which equal to the actual cost of the troops you summon.
3. Since the limit supply for a reinforcing troop is 4, you can call down a squad of one of the followings per drop: - 4 scvs or marines or reapers (4 supply); - 2 marauders or hellions (4 supply); - 1 ghost or tank (3 supply).
4. Examples of how it works:
Select your Orbital Center, press D and left click a marine of your own, then you'll see a drop pod with 4 marines inside coming down from the sky. At least 200 minerals and 4 surplus supply are required.
Doing the same thing on a tank will bring you a drop pod with 1 tank in it, costing 200 minerals / 100 gas and 3 supply.
5. The drop pod itself is a permanent structure with 200 hp that grant you visual field around. It won't disappear for no reason.
6. Note: if you cannot produce an unit, you cannot call down any of them. For example, Reinforcing Drop Pod won’t work at all if you use it on a ghost while all of your Ghost Academies are destroyed. More explanations about my macro mechanic: + Show Spoiler +1. This macro mechanic focuses on not only mineral gathering, but also troop producing, decision making and tactics employing. I think it may add to the depth of the game as well as encourage exciting and even radical game play, while it is not hard to be balanced. 2.When watching battle report 3, Many of my friends who don't play Starcraft said that Terran's macro mechanic was kinda weird, you just called down an awesome drop pod, yet to see the dull mules coming out. And I myself think that things with a timed life such as the current mule are not of Terran style. Besides, the current Orbital skill, the "Supply Drop" is not useful and inventive enough that you cannot expect too much out of it. 3. The basic way to use the mechanic: Produce 4 mules as soon as possible then go back to your Orbital Center every 30 seconds, use "Instant Energy Charge" on a mule, to make sure that all mules in this mineral line are benefited as well, thus you can keep the mules working all the time and make the most out of them, to expect for a good amount of extra resource in return. 4. The basic way is far from being the only way, for you may often tend to use other skills, or use “Energy Charge” on other units. Here are several examples: + Show Spoiler + - You are plotting a high-tier unit rush, say a stupid Thor rush, you’ll be willing to invest 75 energy to the factory, so that Thor can come out 12 seconds earlier.
- A big battle breaks out and your front position is in jeopardy, you’ll not hesitate a moment to calls down as many drop pod as possible, despite the massive energy cost.
- You just suffered from a severe harassment, after which many of your SCVs were killed. Under such adverse circumstances, you’d use “reinforcing drop pod” to call down 4 additional SCVs, and even use “Production Acceleration” on your CCs to quickly recover your damaged economy.
- You want to do a tank drop on the cliff near enemy base as early as possible. You may invest 75x2 energy on your factory and after that another 75 energy on your starport, to accelerate the production of both tanks and medivac dropship. After you successfully deploy two tanks on the cliff, you would like to see another tank coming down, so you’ll invest 125 energy to call down “Reinforcing Drop Pod” if your Orbital Center still has enough energy
Combing the “Reinforcing Drop Pod” and “Production Acceleration” with your imagination means infinite tactics, while the “Distant Energy drop” is not Mules’ private treasure, it belongs to all units having energy. It may mean longer cloaking duration for ghosts/banshees, more hunter missiles for ravens, to be able utilize Yamato Cannon more often for battle cruisers, etc. So you may not deem it as a boring skill to just increase macro, I think even casual gamers may like it. 5. Note that Reinforcing Drop Pod cannot replace medivac dropship, for it only drop corresponding units near the current one, to say that you cannot call down a tank on the cliff if there’s no tank there, or you cannot call down SCVs on an island unless you have at least one SCV there. 6. You may realize from above that the new drop pod mechanic is not over-powered. It partly is a Terran answer to Protoss’ warp-in and Zerg’s Nydus cannel, not as powerful but still cool and useful. And the ability of Production Acceleration can be seen as a solution to MBS. Rather than hotkey all your barracks/factories/starports to a single key and click X repeatedly to produce units, you need interact more with production buildings if you want more from them, which is also an important part of macro, or more exactly here, the base management. 7. Adding to the mule mechanic, mules are Orbital Center’s “interceptors”, so all mules will return to its “Carrier” once OC lifted up; and if an OC is destroyed, all its mules will be killed too. Besides, one mule occupies one transportation slot, thus if you build 5 mules for an Orbital center, it won’t be able to transport SCVs anymore. 8. You don't have to go back to mineral lines and charge mules all the time. There is a upgrade called Neo Reactor in Fusion Core. After the research is completed, all Terran psionic units, inculding mules, will gain an additional restoration rate of 1 energy per second. Thus, mules will keep working by themselves most of the time. Any ideas? Btw, if you guys don’t find it annoying, I may post my Protoss and Zerg macro mechanics someday later.
Instead of a Nexus ability for protoss, mine is an Orbital Center ability for Terran. I think Macro involves not only economy management, but also unit production, which further distinguish macro player and micro player. Zerg has larva injection and Protoss has warp gate, while Terran lacks similar mechanic that affect unit production significantly, so I implemented the "Production Acceleration" ablity on Terran OC.
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Sounds awesome :D And glad the dark obelysk gets the boot.
It might help fight the early all in strats by the zergs, which is neat.
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On February 12 2010 06:15 onmach wrote: The only worry I have is that protoss bases will all be one big tight blob so that any building that might need to be rushed can be. Still, not bad. This is actually a very clever idea. I think this is better than mule now, in fact.
If you scout and see a particular advanced building next to the nexus you'll have some small indication of what build they might be running.
Nowhere in the original post does it mention a range. It could be a targeted ability of the Nexus. As it should be.
I would like a visual indication of which building is Time Warped though.
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On February 12 2010 17:29 skypacer wrote: I think Macro involves not only economy management, but also unit production, which further distinguish macro player and micro player. Zerg has larva injection and Protoss has warp gate, while Terran lacks similar mechanic that affect unit production significantly,
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I made this post on SC2Armory, but I think it applies here as well:
Although I had my doubts about this mechanic initially, I am starting to believe that this is by far the best macro mechanic revealed so far. There are three reasons for this:
1. The mechanic affects ALL aspects of macromanagement and not just one specific area like Proton Charge did. This in itself causes it to have a lot of targetting tension, since the player must decide and balance between increased economic growth, increased unit production and accelerated tech.
2. As the economy increases, the difficulty of maintaining optimal macromanagement increases accordingly. With that, it fulfills the original aim of the macro mechanics to increase the multitasking and attention cost required to play at an optimal rate.
3. It neatly fits with build orders (even more so then the Obelisk) and makes the Nexus a much less of a bland building compared to the original. Plus, it provides for interesting metagame implications, where one can fool an enemy scout by using Time Warp on a building while doing something else entirely.
Overall, if Blizzard can fine tune the rate at which Time Warp recharges, I think this mechanic is a keeper. I get goosebumps from simply thinking of the possibilities it provides. I now have even less regrets about Blizzard taking as much time as they need to develop the game, beacuse this beats out their previous concepts by far.
That said, this only further increases the need for Blizzard to make the macro mechanics of the other two races just as impactful. As they stand currently, neither mechanic has enough tension to justify getting anything other then MULEs/Larva. This particularly applies to Zerg as they currently have all the benefits with little tension and choice. As this article mentions, there simply is no reason for Zerg not to get additional larva as the flexibility they provide is immense. I am starting to think that rather then provide additional larva, the mechanic should mutate existing larva that provide some sort of additional benefit (like increasing Drone or unit production).
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1. The mechanic affects ALL aspects of macromanagement and not just one specific area like Proton Charge did. This in itself causes it to have a lot of targetting tension, since the player must decide and balance between increased economic growth, increased unit production and accelerated tech.
PC (via increased minerals) increased economic growth, unit production, supply, etc...
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Sweden33719 Posts
Archer, I haven't read the entire thread but are you seriously saying you liked the old mechanic better? Yes, better economy has an effect on your entire game, but it was the most mindless mechanic ever.
It was "Click here to get more money!!!!", like a damn pop-up ad.
I mean, with this mechanic you have to decide what you are going to boost, that opens up WAAAAAY more options.
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huge improvement. might have to make it a nexus upgrade to balance it, but that's fine.
the psychout potential of this is amazing
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On February 12 2010 17:06 danl9rm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2009 03:04 Fontong wrote: Pig wang, this mechanic is pretty strange because of the range limitation. It is a sign that is already a very forced an unnatural mechanic for protoss. The strategic effects are far reaching and range from annulling the usefulness of proxies to making a build similar to the forge first FE in SC1 much weaker because you cannot speed buildings more than 14 range away.
luckily it wont be in the game. thank god LoL
I would have thought it would make FE easier. You can now 12 Nex much easier against zerg because your forge and cannons will build much quicker. Not only that, it becomes a much more powerful build because you now have 2 time warps at your disposal.
(assuming that there is no research required)
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On February 13 2010 11:13 FrozenArbiter wrote: Archer, I haven't read the entire thread but are you seriously saying you liked the old mechanic better?
FA please I have enough people missinterpreting me.
I dont just blanket statement mechanics. I look at what makes them what they are. I dissect what works and what doesnt. Their were good and bad parts about Proton Charge. There are good and bad parts about TW. I analyze mechanics. The things that people like about Time Warp (targeting decision making, pacing manipulation) I have been talking about for a looong time.
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This sounds really cool. It increases apm while actually having meaningful utility. You have to choose what to accelerate wisely!
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United States7166 Posts
edit: nvm you guys are totally right
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On February 13 2010 17:20 Zelniq wrote: wait, lemme get this straight.
Protoss gets Time Warp and Warp Gates Terran gets Reactor (double unit production) and M.U.L.E. Zerg just gets Inject Larvae? Yeah that's correct.
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Just?
Inject Larvae is incredible, the strength it gives to either early game aggression or economic growth far surpasses the other race's mechanics. It's strength dwindles in comparison only because of the relative weakness of Zerg tier 2, and even then you have to recognize it's potential for surprise tech switches in terms of the sheer number of units that you aren't prepared for.
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what you mean JUST inject larvae. that shit's imba son =D
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On February 13 2010 17:20 Zelniq wrote: wait, lemme get this straight.
Protoss gets Time Warp and Warp Gates Terran gets Reactor (double unit production) and M.U.L.E. Zerg just gets Inject Larvae? I saw your post on SC2GDF and think you might be overreacting. If the Blizzcon article about inject larvae is correct about 1 hatch + queen = 2.5 hatch then spawn larvae sounds like the best mechanic (we have no idea how strong time warp is yet).
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It seems funny to me that when Blizzard comes out with this, there are like 20 people standing by saying "They took my idea... I said this from the beginning!!" instead of just appreciating the change...
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United States7166 Posts
damn I'm not thinking clearly, you guys are totally right. tried to delete that thread but failed, gg.
i think i used it as an excuse to post my suggestions/criticisms of the shallowness of their macro mechanics, when it could be oh so much more! but i'll wait for beta to be out before I really lay it on em
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On February 13 2010 07:14 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote + 1. The mechanic affects ALL aspects of macromanagement and not just one specific area like Proton Charge did. This in itself causes it to have a lot of targetting tension, since the player must decide and balance between increased economic growth, increased unit production and accelerated tech.
PC (via increased minerals) increased economic growth, unit production, supply, etc... Extra minerals do not give you any more choice than you already had without it, except when you should build it in your BO.
For example compare PC with mule, pc gives extra minerals without choice, mule gives extra minerals but you can chose to scan or get extra supplies instead. Which one have the most choice?
With this speed thing you can also chose to get extra minerals (Building workers faster, duh), but you can also chose to upgrade faster or speed up production for a critical unit in emergencies. Which one got more choice, just extra minerals like the old or the choice between extra minerals, faster upgrading or faster unit production?
With your logic Blizzard could add this new revolutionary macro mechanic: "All players now gain double the minerals and gas", zomg it would double your decisions!!!!!!!!! Then we would get awesome macro games!!!!!!!
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On February 13 2010 20:07 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 07:14 Archerofaiur wrote: 1. The mechanic affects ALL aspects of macromanagement and not just one specific area like Proton Charge did. This in itself causes it to have a lot of targetting tension, since the player must decide and balance between increased economic growth, increased unit production and accelerated tech.
PC (via increased minerals) increased economic growth, unit production, supply, etc... Extra minerals do not give you any more choice than you already had without it, except when you should build it in your BO.
I think your missing that minerals like research times and unit production are pacing elements. Choosing where to focus these pacing element enhancers is what you would call decision making. This is true for both PC and TW with the exception that PC does not affect research pacing and TW does not effect supply pacing. Quick before everyone starts writing telling me all the differences between TW and PC make sure you go back and read those sentences and understand what im saying (hint im not just saying they are the same).
So ultimatly your arguement is that extra minerals isnt choice because it can just be part of your BO. By that same logic Time Warp "lists" could be built into BOs. Also your statement ignores that game circumstances and progression can cause players to diverge off the BO beaten path.
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On February 14 2010 00:30 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 20:07 Klockan3 wrote:On February 13 2010 07:14 Archerofaiur wrote: 1. The mechanic affects ALL aspects of macromanagement and not just one specific area like Proton Charge did. This in itself causes it to have a lot of targetting tension, since the player must decide and balance between increased economic growth, increased unit production and accelerated tech.
PC (via increased minerals) increased economic growth, unit production, supply, etc... Extra minerals do not give you any more choice than you already had without it, except when you should build it in your BO. I think your missing that minerals like research times and unit production are pacing elements. Choosing where to focus these pacing element enhancers is what you would call decision making. This is true for both PC and TW with the exception that PC does not affect research pacing and TW does not effect supply pacing. Quick before everyone starts writing telling me all the differences between TW and PC make sure you go back and read those sentences and understand what im saying (hint im not just saying they are the same) So ultimatly your arguement is that extra minerals isnt choice because it can just be part of your BO. By that same logic Time Warp "lists" could be built into BOs. Also your statement ignores that game circumstances and progression can cause players to diverge off the BO beaten path. There's no choice at all with PC; this is silly. Mining 6 minerals instead of 5 just speeds you up. You have to make the same decisions regardless. If SC:BW was patched so that worked mined 10 minerals instead of 8, would that add more choice to the game? It would change how the game is played, but it would not add any new choices or skill to the game.
We don't know much about time warp, but if it targets a single building then it has a ton more choice in every build order.
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i may have to switch back from terran to protoss just because of this mechanic lol (oh and love the warp in). i dont know if blizzard did it because of this knowledge or not BUT it seems a great way to balance pvz espacially. zerg has the ability to switch its tech or between army aggression and economy. All doing so with a high chance of preventing scouting....and in pvz you always wanna scout zerg. Now with the time warp protoss can immediately produce more zealots or templars or w.e is necessary to combat the tech switch and even to maybe match the zerg unit number (not food). At the same time i cant help but feel that they are making protoss more of a "newb" class and make it even more forgiving. you lost your main army full of the most powerful race, dont worry just build it up quickly. if we look at pvt how will it change? toss had to be extremely careful against terrans (mines and siege tanks). now fly a pylon over one rran expo, warp 5 lots and take it out, suicide your main army into another expo and quickly regen the army with warp gates (10sec faster units) and time warp (w.e the stats will be). All this new mechanics ACTUALLY COMPLIMENTS the gameplay of pvt in sense of toss has to grab many expo as possible at same time shutting terrans out. those hordes of minerals will be used really fast in pvt for protoss now. i dont think flash can just turtle in his games anymore in sc2.
of course this is all theorycrafting...but the human mind is imaginative. BETA BETA BETA BETA
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On February 14 2010 02:10 Tsagacity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 00:30 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 13 2010 20:07 Klockan3 wrote:On February 13 2010 07:14 Archerofaiur wrote: 1. The mechanic affects ALL aspects of macromanagement and not just one specific area like Proton Charge did. This in itself causes it to have a lot of targetting tension, since the player must decide and balance between increased economic growth, increased unit production and accelerated tech.
PC (via increased minerals) increased economic growth, unit production, supply, etc... Extra minerals do not give you any more choice than you already had without it, except when you should build it in your BO. I think your missing that minerals like research times and unit production are pacing elements. Choosing where to focus these pacing element enhancers is what you would call decision making. This is true for both PC and TW with the exception that PC does not affect research pacing and TW does not effect supply pacing. Quick before everyone starts writing telling me all the differences between TW and PC make sure you go back and read those sentences and understand what im saying (hint im not just saying they are the same) So ultimatly your arguement is that extra minerals isnt choice because it can just be part of your BO. By that same logic Time Warp "lists" could be built into BOs. Also your statement ignores that game circumstances and progression can cause players to diverge off the BO beaten path. There's no choice at all with PC; this is silly. Mining 6 minerals instead of 5 just speeds you up. You have to make the same decisions regardless. If SC:BW was patched so that worked mined 10 minerals instead of 8, would that add more choice to the game? It would change how the game is played, but it would not add any new choices or skill to the game. We don't know much about time warp, but if it targets a single building then it has a ton more choice in every build order.
The big thing your missing is causation. You think the decision making just stops once the ability is casted. You have to look at what it does for the gameplay expierence as a whole. Its like looking at Spawn Larva and realizing that more larva mean more decisions about what those larva become. Ok so ive just given you 200 extra minerals. What are all the possible choices you can make with it?
Zealots, probes, pylons, gateways, cannons, forge, core, assimilator, expanding ...and thats not even counting what you can do with some more gas.
One of the bigger macro mechanics in SC1 was building lots of gateways. PC encourages that. TW much less so (only through pumping probes). If your using it for faster unit production than the pressure to build additional gateways is reduced. In essence your decreasing one macro action to increase another. Borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. Although we need the actual numbers to actually see the degree of impact here.
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On February 14 2010 03:33 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 02:10 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 00:30 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 13 2010 20:07 Klockan3 wrote:On February 13 2010 07:14 Archerofaiur wrote: 1. The mechanic affects ALL aspects of macromanagement and not just one specific area like Proton Charge did. This in itself causes it to have a lot of targetting tension, since the player must decide and balance between increased economic growth, increased unit production and accelerated tech.
PC (via increased minerals) increased economic growth, unit production, supply, etc... Extra minerals do not give you any more choice than you already had without it, except when you should build it in your BO. I think your missing that minerals like research times and unit production are pacing elements. Choosing where to focus these pacing element enhancers is what you would call decision making. This is true for both PC and TW with the exception that PC does not affect research pacing and TW does not effect supply pacing. Quick before everyone starts writing telling me all the differences between TW and PC make sure you go back and read those sentences and understand what im saying (hint im not just saying they are the same) So ultimatly your arguement is that extra minerals isnt choice because it can just be part of your BO. By that same logic Time Warp "lists" could be built into BOs. Also your statement ignores that game circumstances and progression can cause players to diverge off the BO beaten path. There's no choice at all with PC; this is silly. Mining 6 minerals instead of 5 just speeds you up. You have to make the same decisions regardless. If SC:BW was patched so that worked mined 10 minerals instead of 8, would that add more choice to the game? It would change how the game is played, but it would not add any new choices or skill to the game. We don't know much about time warp, but if it targets a single building then it has a ton more choice in every build order. The big thing your missing is causation. You think the decision making just stops once the ability is casted. You have to look at what it does for the gameplay expierence as a whole. Ok so ive just given you 200 extra minerals. What are all the possible choices you can make with it? Zealots, probes, pylons, gateways, cannons, forge, core...and thats not even counting what you can do with some more gas.. These are the same choices any player makes with their minerals in SC:BW regardless of race. Increasing someone's income does not add choice; it just makes them go through their choices faster. Whether or not I want to make a zealot, a probe, a gateway, or a cannon is not a special decision added thanks to PC.
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On February 14 2010 03:40 Tsagacity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 03:33 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 14 2010 02:10 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 00:30 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 13 2010 20:07 Klockan3 wrote:On February 13 2010 07:14 Archerofaiur wrote: 1. The mechanic affects ALL aspects of macromanagement and not just one specific area like Proton Charge did. This in itself causes it to have a lot of targetting tension, since the player must decide and balance between increased economic growth, increased unit production and accelerated tech.
PC (via increased minerals) increased economic growth, unit production, supply, etc... Extra minerals do not give you any more choice than you already had without it, except when you should build it in your BO. I think your missing that minerals like research times and unit production are pacing elements. Choosing where to focus these pacing element enhancers is what you would call decision making. This is true for both PC and TW with the exception that PC does not affect research pacing and TW does not effect supply pacing. Quick before everyone starts writing telling me all the differences between TW and PC make sure you go back and read those sentences and understand what im saying (hint im not just saying they are the same) So ultimatly your arguement is that extra minerals isnt choice because it can just be part of your BO. By that same logic Time Warp "lists" could be built into BOs. Also your statement ignores that game circumstances and progression can cause players to diverge off the BO beaten path. There's no choice at all with PC; this is silly. Mining 6 minerals instead of 5 just speeds you up. You have to make the same decisions regardless. If SC:BW was patched so that worked mined 10 minerals instead of 8, would that add more choice to the game? It would change how the game is played, but it would not add any new choices or skill to the game. We don't know much about time warp, but if it targets a single building then it has a ton more choice in every build order. The big thing your missing is causation. You think the decision making just stops once the ability is casted. You have to look at what it does for the gameplay expierence as a whole. Ok so ive just given you 200 extra minerals. What are all the possible choices you can make with it? Zealots, probes, pylons, gateways, cannons, forge, core...and thats not even counting what you can do with some more gas.. These are the same choices any player makes with their minerals in SC:BW regardless of race. Increasing someone's income does not add choice, it just makes them go through their choices faster. Whether or not I want to make a zealot, a probe, a gateway, or a cannon is not a special decision added thanks to PC.
The decisions are the same but the rate is increased. Decision Making per unit time. Thats adding decision making. Just to throw made up numbers out their at minute ten you will have made 25% more base decisions then you would have without PC.
Unless you want to start argueing that Spawn Larva doesnt have decision making since you would have made the larva decisions eventually :p
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On February 14 2010 03:43 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 03:40 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 03:33 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 14 2010 02:10 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 00:30 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 13 2010 20:07 Klockan3 wrote:On February 13 2010 07:14 Archerofaiur wrote: 1. The mechanic affects ALL aspects of macromanagement and not just one specific area like Proton Charge did. This in itself causes it to have a lot of targetting tension, since the player must decide and balance between increased economic growth, increased unit production and accelerated tech.
PC (via increased minerals) increased economic growth, unit production, supply, etc... Extra minerals do not give you any more choice than you already had without it, except when you should build it in your BO. I think your missing that minerals like research times and unit production are pacing elements. Choosing where to focus these pacing element enhancers is what you would call decision making. This is true for both PC and TW with the exception that PC does not affect research pacing and TW does not effect supply pacing. Quick before everyone starts writing telling me all the differences between TW and PC make sure you go back and read those sentences and understand what im saying (hint im not just saying they are the same) So ultimatly your arguement is that extra minerals isnt choice because it can just be part of your BO. By that same logic Time Warp "lists" could be built into BOs. Also your statement ignores that game circumstances and progression can cause players to diverge off the BO beaten path. There's no choice at all with PC; this is silly. Mining 6 minerals instead of 5 just speeds you up. You have to make the same decisions regardless. If SC:BW was patched so that worked mined 10 minerals instead of 8, would that add more choice to the game? It would change how the game is played, but it would not add any new choices or skill to the game. We don't know much about time warp, but if it targets a single building then it has a ton more choice in every build order. The big thing your missing is causation. You think the decision making just stops once the ability is casted. You have to look at what it does for the gameplay expierence as a whole. Ok so ive just given you 200 extra minerals. What are all the possible choices you can make with it? Zealots, probes, pylons, gateways, cannons, forge, core...and thats not even counting what you can do with some more gas.. These are the same choices any player makes with their minerals in SC:BW regardless of race. Increasing someone's income does not add choice, it just makes them go through their choices faster. Whether or not I want to make a zealot, a probe, a gateway, or a cannon is not a special decision added thanks to PC. The decisions are the same but the rate is increased. Decision Making per unit time. Thats adding decision making. Just to throw made up numbers out their at minute ten you will have made 25% more base decisions then you would have without PC. All this does is dilute each process. You make more decisions, but each decision has less of an impact. For example going barracks before supply in TvZ is just about the only decision you will make in the first minute, but it is a HUGE decision.
Unless you want to start argueing that Spawn Larva doesnt have decision making since you would have made the larva decisions eventually :p Spawn larvae isn't a breakthrough either, but it does add some more variety and contributes a lot to different playstyles. One example to demonstrate the difference between more larvae and PC is that you can't use PC to pump out a shit-ton of probes.
To be honest I've never been particularly thrilled with inject, but I've never felt zerg need anything more either. The choices with econ and drone timings for zerg in SC:BW already add a very cool additional lair for zerg.
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On February 14 2010 03:58 Tsagacity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 03:43 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 14 2010 03:40 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 03:33 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 14 2010 02:10 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 00:30 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 13 2010 20:07 Klockan3 wrote:On February 13 2010 07:14 Archerofaiur wrote: 1. The mechanic affects ALL aspects of macromanagement and not just one specific area like Proton Charge did. This in itself causes it to have a lot of targetting tension, since the player must decide and balance between increased economic growth, increased unit production and accelerated tech.
PC (via increased minerals) increased economic growth, unit production, supply, etc... Extra minerals do not give you any more choice than you already had without it, except when you should build it in your BO. I think your missing that minerals like research times and unit production are pacing elements. Choosing where to focus these pacing element enhancers is what you would call decision making. This is true for both PC and TW with the exception that PC does not affect research pacing and TW does not effect supply pacing. Quick before everyone starts writing telling me all the differences between TW and PC make sure you go back and read those sentences and understand what im saying (hint im not just saying they are the same) So ultimatly your arguement is that extra minerals isnt choice because it can just be part of your BO. By that same logic Time Warp "lists" could be built into BOs. Also your statement ignores that game circumstances and progression can cause players to diverge off the BO beaten path. There's no choice at all with PC; this is silly. Mining 6 minerals instead of 5 just speeds you up. You have to make the same decisions regardless. If SC:BW was patched so that worked mined 10 minerals instead of 8, would that add more choice to the game? It would change how the game is played, but it would not add any new choices or skill to the game. We don't know much about time warp, but if it targets a single building then it has a ton more choice in every build order. The big thing your missing is causation. You think the decision making just stops once the ability is casted. You have to look at what it does for the gameplay expierence as a whole. Ok so ive just given you 200 extra minerals. What are all the possible choices you can make with it? Zealots, probes, pylons, gateways, cannons, forge, core...and thats not even counting what you can do with some more gas.. These are the same choices any player makes with their minerals in SC:BW regardless of race. Increasing someone's income does not add choice, it just makes them go through their choices faster. Whether or not I want to make a zealot, a probe, a gateway, or a cannon is not a special decision added thanks to PC. The decisions are the same but the rate is increased. Decision Making per unit time. Thats adding decision making. Just to throw made up numbers out their at minute ten you will have made 25% more base decisions then you would have without PC. All this does is dilute each process. You make more decisions, but each decision has less of an impact. For example going barracks before supply in TvZ is just about the only decision you will make in the first minute, but it is a HUGE decision. Show nested quote +Unless you want to start argueing that Spawn Larva doesnt have decision making since you would have made the larva decisions eventually :p Spawn larvae isn't a breakthrough either, but it does add some more variety and contributes a lot to different playstyles. One example to demonstrate the difference between more larvae and PC is that you can't use PC to pump out a shit-ton of probes.
Now your argueing more about the kinds of decision making rather than the amount of decision making. Your original arguement was that PC offered no decision making. Do you see how your arguement has shifted?
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On February 14 2010 04:00 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 03:58 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 03:43 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 14 2010 03:40 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 03:33 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 14 2010 02:10 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 00:30 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 13 2010 20:07 Klockan3 wrote:On February 13 2010 07:14 Archerofaiur wrote: 1. The mechanic affects ALL aspects of macromanagement and not just one specific area like Proton Charge did. This in itself causes it to have a lot of targetting tension, since the player must decide and balance between increased economic growth, increased unit production and accelerated tech.
PC (via increased minerals) increased economic growth, unit production, supply, etc... Extra minerals do not give you any more choice than you already had without it, except when you should build it in your BO. I think your missing that minerals like research times and unit production are pacing elements. Choosing where to focus these pacing element enhancers is what you would call decision making. This is true for both PC and TW with the exception that PC does not affect research pacing and TW does not effect supply pacing. Quick before everyone starts writing telling me all the differences between TW and PC make sure you go back and read those sentences and understand what im saying (hint im not just saying they are the same) So ultimatly your arguement is that extra minerals isnt choice because it can just be part of your BO. By that same logic Time Warp "lists" could be built into BOs. Also your statement ignores that game circumstances and progression can cause players to diverge off the BO beaten path. There's no choice at all with PC; this is silly. Mining 6 minerals instead of 5 just speeds you up. You have to make the same decisions regardless. If SC:BW was patched so that worked mined 10 minerals instead of 8, would that add more choice to the game? It would change how the game is played, but it would not add any new choices or skill to the game. We don't know much about time warp, but if it targets a single building then it has a ton more choice in every build order. The big thing your missing is causation. You think the decision making just stops once the ability is casted. You have to look at what it does for the gameplay expierence as a whole. Ok so ive just given you 200 extra minerals. What are all the possible choices you can make with it? Zealots, probes, pylons, gateways, cannons, forge, core...and thats not even counting what you can do with some more gas.. These are the same choices any player makes with their minerals in SC:BW regardless of race. Increasing someone's income does not add choice, it just makes them go through their choices faster. Whether or not I want to make a zealot, a probe, a gateway, or a cannon is not a special decision added thanks to PC. The decisions are the same but the rate is increased. Decision Making per unit time. Thats adding decision making. Just to throw made up numbers out their at minute ten you will have made 25% more base decisions then you would have without PC. All this does is dilute each process. You make more decisions, but each decision has less of an impact. For example going barracks before supply in TvZ is just about the only decision you will make in the first minute, but it is a HUGE decision. Unless you want to start argueing that Spawn Larva doesnt have decision making since you would have made the larva decisions eventually :p Spawn larvae isn't a breakthrough either, but it does add some more variety and contributes a lot to different playstyles. One example to demonstrate the difference between more larvae and PC is that you can't use PC to pump out a shit-ton of probes. Now your argueing more about the kinds of decision making rather than the amount of decision making. Your original arguement was that PC had no decision making. Do you see how your arguement has shifted? No, I don't.
Do you see how passively increasing a player's mineral income doesn't add anything to the game?
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On February 14 2010 04:02 Tsagacity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 04:00 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 14 2010 03:58 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 03:43 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 14 2010 03:40 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 03:33 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 14 2010 02:10 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 00:30 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 13 2010 20:07 Klockan3 wrote:On February 13 2010 07:14 Archerofaiur wrote:
[quote]
PC (via increased minerals) increased economic growth, unit production, supply, etc...
Extra minerals do not give you any more choice than you already had without it, except when you should build it in your BO. I think your missing that minerals like research times and unit production are pacing elements. Choosing where to focus these pacing element enhancers is what you would call decision making. This is true for both PC and TW with the exception that PC does not affect research pacing and TW does not effect supply pacing. Quick before everyone starts writing telling me all the differences between TW and PC make sure you go back and read those sentences and understand what im saying (hint im not just saying they are the same) So ultimatly your arguement is that extra minerals isnt choice because it can just be part of your BO. By that same logic Time Warp "lists" could be built into BOs. Also your statement ignores that game circumstances and progression can cause players to diverge off the BO beaten path. There's no choice at all with PC; this is silly. Mining 6 minerals instead of 5 just speeds you up. You have to make the same decisions regardless. If SC:BW was patched so that worked mined 10 minerals instead of 8, would that add more choice to the game? It would change how the game is played, but it would not add any new choices or skill to the game. We don't know much about time warp, but if it targets a single building then it has a ton more choice in every build order. The big thing your missing is causation. You think the decision making just stops once the ability is casted. You have to look at what it does for the gameplay expierence as a whole. Ok so ive just given you 200 extra minerals. What are all the possible choices you can make with it? Zealots, probes, pylons, gateways, cannons, forge, core...and thats not even counting what you can do with some more gas.. These are the same choices any player makes with their minerals in SC:BW regardless of race. Increasing someone's income does not add choice, it just makes them go through their choices faster. Whether or not I want to make a zealot, a probe, a gateway, or a cannon is not a special decision added thanks to PC. The decisions are the same but the rate is increased. Decision Making per unit time. Thats adding decision making. Just to throw made up numbers out their at minute ten you will have made 25% more base decisions then you would have without PC. All this does is dilute each process. You make more decisions, but each decision has less of an impact. For example going barracks before supply in TvZ is just about the only decision you will make in the first minute, but it is a HUGE decision. Unless you want to start argueing that Spawn Larva doesnt have decision making since you would have made the larva decisions eventually :p Spawn larvae isn't a breakthrough either, but it does add some more variety and contributes a lot to different playstyles. One example to demonstrate the difference between more larvae and PC is that you can't use PC to pump out a shit-ton of probes. Now your argueing more about the kinds of decision making rather than the amount of decision making. Your original arguement was that PC had no decision making. Do you see how your arguement has shifted? No, I don't.
Try reading through it once more 
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On February 14 2010 04:04 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 04:02 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 04:00 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 14 2010 03:58 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 03:43 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 14 2010 03:40 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 03:33 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 14 2010 02:10 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 00:30 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 13 2010 20:07 Klockan3 wrote: [quote] Extra minerals do not give you any more choice than you already had without it, except when you should build it in your BO.
I think your missing that minerals like research times and unit production are pacing elements. Choosing where to focus these pacing element enhancers is what you would call decision making. This is true for both PC and TW with the exception that PC does not affect research pacing and TW does not effect supply pacing. Quick before everyone starts writing telling me all the differences between TW and PC make sure you go back and read those sentences and understand what im saying (hint im not just saying they are the same) So ultimatly your arguement is that extra minerals isnt choice because it can just be part of your BO. By that same logic Time Warp "lists" could be built into BOs. Also your statement ignores that game circumstances and progression can cause players to diverge off the BO beaten path. There's no choice at all with PC; this is silly. Mining 6 minerals instead of 5 just speeds you up. You have to make the same decisions regardless. If SC:BW was patched so that worked mined 10 minerals instead of 8, would that add more choice to the game? It would change how the game is played, but it would not add any new choices or skill to the game. We don't know much about time warp, but if it targets a single building then it has a ton more choice in every build order. The big thing your missing is causation. You think the decision making just stops once the ability is casted. You have to look at what it does for the gameplay expierence as a whole. Ok so ive just given you 200 extra minerals. What are all the possible choices you can make with it? Zealots, probes, pylons, gateways, cannons, forge, core...and thats not even counting what you can do with some more gas.. These are the same choices any player makes with their minerals in SC:BW regardless of race. Increasing someone's income does not add choice, it just makes them go through their choices faster. Whether or not I want to make a zealot, a probe, a gateway, or a cannon is not a special decision added thanks to PC. The decisions are the same but the rate is increased. Decision Making per unit time. Thats adding decision making. Just to throw made up numbers out their at minute ten you will have made 25% more base decisions then you would have without PC. All this does is dilute each process. You make more decisions, but each decision has less of an impact. For example going barracks before supply in TvZ is just about the only decision you will make in the first minute, but it is a HUGE decision. Unless you want to start argueing that Spawn Larva doesnt have decision making since you would have made the larva decisions eventually :p Spawn larvae isn't a breakthrough either, but it does add some more variety and contributes a lot to different playstyles. One example to demonstrate the difference between more larvae and PC is that you can't use PC to pump out a shit-ton of probes. Now your argueing more about the kinds of decision making rather than the amount of decision making. Your original arguement was that PC had no decision making. Do you see how your arguement has shifted? No, I don't. Try reading through it once more  Try reading what I said once more 
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Remember by your own admission about PC
On February 14 2010 03:58 Tsagacity wrote: You make more decisions,
Were looking at the overall effect on gameplay. The purpose of the macro mechanics is ultimatly to promote macro playstyles. Part of that includes giving the player more decisions to make in base. So I ask you which creates more decisions overall?
One extra decision every 30 seconds? or A 20% increase in the mineral intake and about 20% increase in mineral decision making.?
Now the question is fuzzy without clear numbers and to complicate things TW can be used to increase minerals through probe. However I would be very surprised if the increase in minerals from probe pumping came close to increasing the mineral advantage of Proton Charge. It seems to me that overall Proton Charge results in a far more accelerate and overall more decision making gameplay expeirence.
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You don't seem to understand the difference between the number of decisions and and actual increase in CHOICE.
Here's the key word for my argument: REDUNDANT. These aren't any kind of complex decision, they're set actions that don't increase your choices. You're just fooled by the illusion of choice.
In any given protoss game, your excess minerals can be used for a number of different things, but set rules simplify this process that it could often be determined with a flow chart.
If you're about to be supply blocked, you use it on a pylon. If not then you use it on a non-producing structure (make probe/zealot). If all your structures are producing you build another gateway.
There's no unique decision added here. You may have the illusion of choice, but the only choice is "Do you want to suck, or not to suck?" I mean, if you want to use all your money on massing pylons, I guess now you can choose to make 11 pylons in a minute instead of 10.
Compared this to time warp in contrast, which allows you to add a (hopefully significant) boost to any number of individual strategies. You actually do have a choice here in whether or not you want blink timing, +1 timing, early storm, or an early colossus.
TL;DR PC only adds choice to the game if you consider choosing to supply block yourself for no benefit an actual choice.
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On February 14 2010 04:19 Tsagacity wrote: You don't seem to understand the difference between the number of decisions and and actual increase in CHOICE.
Here's the key word for my argument: REDUNDANT. These aren't any kind of complex decision, they're set actions that don't increase your choices. You're just fooled by the illusion of choice.
In any given protoss game, your excess minerals can be used for a number of different things, but set rules simplify this process that it could often be determined with a flow chart.
If you're about to be supply blocked, you use it on a pylon. If not then you use it on a non-producing structure (make probe/zealot). If all your structures are producing you build another gateway.
There's no unique decision added here. You may have the illusion of choice, but the only choice is "Do you want to suck, or not to suck?" I mean, if you want to use all your money on massing pylons, I guess now you can choose to make 11 pylons in a minute instead of 10.
Compared this to time warp in contrast, which allows you to add a (hopefully significant) boost to any number of individual strategies. You actually do have a choice here in whether or not you want blink timing, +1 timing, early storm, or an early colossus.
Careful. I could just as easily reduce Time Warp to Build Order material.
Your point about "new decision making" is recognized but ultimatly arbitrary. I could just as easily call any decisions that I couldnt otherwise make at that time point "new". And remember that the purpose of macro isnt to create "new" decisions so much as it is to promote macro. Creating "new" decisions can be part of that but not at the expense of the original goal.
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On February 14 2010 04:21 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 04:19 Tsagacity wrote: You don't seem to understand the difference between the number of decisions and and actual increase in CHOICE.
Here's the key word for my argument: REDUNDANT. These aren't any kind of complex decision, they're set actions that don't increase your choices. You're just fooled by the illusion of choice.
In any given protoss game, your excess minerals can be used for a number of different things, but set rules simplify this process that it could often be determined with a flow chart.
If you're about to be supply blocked, you use it on a pylon. If not then you use it on a non-producing structure (make probe/zealot). If all your structures are producing you build another gateway.
There's no unique decision added here. You may have the illusion of choice, but the only choice is "Do you want to suck, or not to suck?" I mean, if you want to use all your money on massing pylons, I guess now you can choose to make 11 pylons in a minute instead of 10.
Compared this to time warp in contrast, which allows you to add a (hopefully significant) boost to any number of individual strategies. You actually do have a choice here in whether or not you want blink timing, +1 timing, early storm, or an early colossus. Careful. I could just as easily reduce Time Warp to Build Order material. Absolutely, give SC2 a bit of time for the metagame to evolve and all the time warp choices will be reduced to a set build order. The difference is that time warp leads to multiple different build orders across different tech trees.
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On February 14 2010 04:23 Tsagacity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 04:21 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 14 2010 04:19 Tsagacity wrote: You don't seem to understand the difference between the number of decisions and and actual increase in CHOICE.
Here's the key word for my argument: REDUNDANT. These aren't any kind of complex decision, they're set actions that don't increase your choices. You're just fooled by the illusion of choice.
In any given protoss game, your excess minerals can be used for a number of different things, but set rules simplify this process that it could often be determined with a flow chart.
If you're about to be supply blocked, you use it on a pylon. If not then you use it on a non-producing structure (make probe/zealot). If all your structures are producing you build another gateway.
There's no unique decision added here. You may have the illusion of choice, but the only choice is "Do you want to suck, or not to suck?" I mean, if you want to use all your money on massing pylons, I guess now you can choose to make 11 pylons in a minute instead of 10.
Compared this to time warp in contrast, which allows you to add a (hopefully significant) boost to any number of individual strategies. You actually do have a choice here in whether or not you want blink timing, +1 timing, early storm, or an early colossus. Careful. I could just as easily reduce Time Warp to Build Order material. Absolutely, give SC2 a bit of time for the metagame to evolve and all the time warp choices will be reduced to a set build order. The difference is that time warp leads to multiple different build orders across different tech trees.
Once again the purpose of macro mechanics isnt to increase build orders. It can be part of it but not at the expense of the goal.
By the way youve shifted your arguement again. Your now argueing about Time Warp being superior not because of increased decision making but because it opens up build orders. This is ironic since a couple posts ago you were decrying PC for being BO material.
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I'm not shifting my argument, I'm clarifying points because you're fooled by the illusion of choice. You don't seem to understand that at high levels of play the choices you make are on the general strategy level.
Also, please clarify what you think the purpose of the macro mechanics are then, because it's pretentious to assume you know what their specific purpose is.
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On February 14 2010 04:30 Tsagacity wrote: I'm not shifting my argument, I'm clarifying points because you're fooled by the illusion of choice. You don't seem to understand that at high levels of play the choices you make are on the general strategy level.
Also, please clarify what you think the purpose of the macro mechanics are then, because it's pretentious to assume you know what their specific purpose is.
I would point you to the Teamliquid interview with Dustin which is our clearest example of Blizzards intents for the macro mechanics. I get the sense that your now trying to shift the arguement to one of interpretation of Dustins statements.
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AOA, just wondering how exactly do you think more money=more choices? take current broodwar for example. if you give a late-game toss player more money, is there ANYTHING he can do other than build more gateways and pump more min-heavy units? (this uses the assumption that PC gave you more mins compared to gas, since you are boosting 20 ish min probes and 3 gas ones) considering where the obelisk was on the tech tree, it can't really help in tech or upgrade decisions since most of those are done. The way I'm seeing it is you either spend your money on units, or you do not, not much of a choice to me. the only real decision would be do i want 3 more zlots, or 3 more dragoons. do you think thats a better choice than do i want a faster upgrades/high-tech units/workers?
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On February 14 2010 04:31 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 04:30 Tsagacity wrote: I'm not shifting my argument, I'm clarifying points because you're fooled by the illusion of choice. You don't seem to understand that at high levels of play the choices you make are on the general strategy level.
Also, please clarify what you think the purpose of the macro mechanics are then, because it's pretentious to assume you know what their specific purpose is. I would point you to the Teamliquid interview with Dustin which is our clearest example of Blizzards intents for the macro mechanics. You WOULD point me? What? Why don't you?
Your now argueing about Time Warp being superior not because of increased decision making but because it opens up build orders. Just pulling this out because it perfectly illustrates the flaw behind your thoughts. Your build orders ARE your decisions (outside of tactical decisions of what to attack etc) more build order variety = more decision!
However, I am willing to concede that on a casual level the extra minerals represent a constant decision making factor for unfamiliar players.
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On February 14 2010 04:35 Chen wrote: AOA, just wondering how exactly do you think more money=more choices? take current broodwar for example. if you give a late-game toss player more money, is there ANYTHING he can do other than build more gateways and pump more min-heavy units? (this uses the assumption that PC gave you more mins compared to gas, since you are boosting 20 ish min probes and 3 gas ones) considering where the obelisk was on the tech tree, it can't really help in tech or upgrade decisions since most of those are done. The way I'm seeing it is you either spend your money on units, or you do not, not much of a choice to me. the only real decision would be do i want 3 more zlots, or 3 more dragoons. do you think thats a better choice than do i want a faster upgrades/high-tech units/workers?
Before dealing with "what is choice" metaphysical questions pretaining to late game situations lets answer the fundamental questions. Which creates more macro actions and decisions?
One extra decision every 30 seconds? or A 20% increase in the mineral intake and about 20% increase in mineral decision making?
On February 14 2010 04:36 Tsagacity wrote: Just pulling this out because it perfectly illustrates the flaw behind your thoughts. Your build orders ARE your decisions (outside of tactical decisions of what to attack etc) more build order variety = more decision!
lol and now your counting build orders as decision making.
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On February 14 2010 04:37 Archerofaiur wrote: lol and now your counting build orders as decision making. Who would ever claim that choosing your build order strategy is NOT a decision?
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AOA, I'm also confused about your argument. Can you clarify please?
I think what you are saying is that PC gave the player more money at any given instant. More money means more decisions because more money means a higher number of things you can build at any given time. Is this correct or am I missing it?
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On February 14 2010 04:42 Deviation wrote: AOA, I'm also confused about your argument. Can you clarify please?
I think what you are saying is that PC gave the player more money at any given instant. More money means more decisions because more money means a higher number of things you can build at any given time. Is this correct or am I missing it?
Yes Im looking at the overall impact of the mechanics on macro gameplay. By what degree do they actually promote macro actions and decision making taking into account long term effects.
On February 14 2010 04:40 Tsagacity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 04:37 Archerofaiur wrote: lol and now your counting build orders as decision making. Who would ever claim that choosing your build order strategy is NOT a decision?
On February 14 2010 04:19 Tsagacity wrote: In any given protoss game, your excess minerals can be used for a number of different things, but set rules simplify this process that it could often be determined with a flow chart.
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You're still not understanding where the real decisions are in a build order, so I'll clarify one last time with an example.
In a protoss vs protoss match, I have a number of different choices at the start of a game.
Do I want to go dark templars? Do I want to go 2 gate robo? Do I want to go 3 gate goon? Do I want to fast expand?
^Those are choices
Once I've chosen to go for a specific 3 gate goon timing, when I build my additional gateways is NO LONGER A CHOICE. It's a forced set action I have to execute in order to achieve optimum results.
On February 14 2010 04:19 Tsagacity wrote: In any given protoss game, your excess minerals can be used for a number of different things, but set rules simplify this process that it could often be determined with a flow chart.
Nowhere in that quote did I mention anything about choosing a build order. The fact that you think this demonstrates where your flaw is in understanding SC:BW build orders. I'm really curious what your play level is in SC:BW?
I know being bad at SC:BW doesn't mean you can't have good arguments, but you definitely don't understand where the choice is made for a build order.
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AOA I think you make a valid point but to play devil's advocate I'd like to point out what I like about TW vs PC:
PC will increase the speed at which you make decisions. These macro decisions will be of the same type of a standard game of Starcraft. This is it basically just speeds up the standard macro game by increasing the rate of income, meaning it increases the speed required to play 'perfect' in the macro area of the game.
TW can do what PC does to some extent (probably not as much) by allowing the player to pump more probes. However, TW can also be used to manipulate timings in a way that PC can not. That is PC offers a linear increase in decision making speed while TW offers this as well as allowing the player to use it to create a variable increase in decision making speed.
(When I say decision making speed, I mean the number of 'extra' decisions generated by the mechanic for player consideration).
In conclusion I think, depending on the specific stats of TW, TW can do exactly what PC did and more by allowing the player the choice to manipulate timings in a more free-form way (less linear).
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This just shows that Blizzard is really lacking in direction with this game. Now they have to re-balance everything and we have to wait another while for even beta to come out.
protip blizzard: stop trying to balance imbalance (roach heal, stalker blink, reaper cliff jump, imba macro mechanics)
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To clarify, PC speeds up the standard macro game. TW can be used to speed up the standard macro game (more probes), but at the same time offers the player a few new choices (at any given instant the ability can be used), meaning it broadens the standard macro game.
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On February 14 2010 04:46 Tsagacity wrote: You're still not understanding where the real decisions are in a build order, so I'll clarify one last time with an example.
In a protoss vs protoss match, I have a number of different choices at the start of a game.
Do I want to go dark templars? Do I want to go 2 gate robo? Do I want to go 3 gate goon? Do I want to fast expand?
^Those are choices
Once I've chosen to go for a specific 3 gate goon timing, when I build my additional gateways is NO LONGER A CHOICE. It's a forced set action I have to execute in order to achieve optimum results.
Again the purpose of the macro mechanics is not to add more of whatever decision making you personally consider to be "choices". Its to promote macro playstyles. This really is the subject for a whole nother "what is choice in Starcraft" thread but for the sake of arguement choice is a function of effectiveness of each option that varies with circumstance. Its no where near as binary as you are portraying it.
On February 14 2010 04:54 Deviation wrote: AOA I think you make a valid point but to play devil's advocate I'd like to point out what I like about TW vs PC:
I dont want to come off as strictly "anti-TW". I think there are strong and weak points about the mechanic just like their were strong and weak points about PC.
On the point of using TW to pump probes and thereby increase mineral intake yes I agree with that. But I would be very surprised if it came close to the degree of "macro acceleration" that PC did. Im waiting for the numbers to get a better idea of what were talking about.
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On February 14 2010 04:59 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 04:46 Tsagacity wrote: You're still not understanding where the real decisions are in a build order, so I'll clarify one last time with an example.
In a protoss vs protoss match, I have a number of different choices at the start of a game.
Do I want to go dark templars? Do I want to go 2 gate robo? Do I want to go 3 gate goon? Do I want to fast expand?
^Those are choices
Once I've chosen to go for a specific 3 gate goon timing, when I build my additional gateways is NO LONGER A CHOICE. It's a forced set action I have to execute in order to achieve optimum results. Again the purpose of the macro mechanics is not to add more of whatever decision making you personally consider to be "choices". Its to promote macro playstyles. This really is the subject for a whole nother "what is choice in Starcraft" thread but for the sake of arguement choice is a function of effectiveness of each option that varies with circumstance. Its no where near as binary as you are portraying it. Never did I argue anything about TW achieving whatever Blizzard's aim is. My point is that there's no additional choice with proton charge, and there is the potential for additional choice with TW.
You never did link the Browder interview by the way, you just said you would.
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On a cursory scan I don't see any macro mechanic arguments supporting what the proton charge does. Can you please quote specifically?
It's not my job to find your argument supports You're supposed to present them to me.
And of course I've seen it. I've also seen 20 other interviews. "Dustin Browder interview" doesn't mean a thing to me.
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On February 14 2010 05:09 Tsagacity wrote:On a cursory scan I don't see any macro mechanic arguments supporting what the proton charge does. Can you please quote specifically? It's not my job to find your argument supports  You're supposed to present them to me. And of course I've seen it. I've also seen 20 other interviews. "Dustin Browder interview" doesn't mean a thing to me.
Out of curiosity are you trying to turn this into a arguement about the purpose of the macro mechanics? I see allot of these distractors from you like the ad hominem attack saying I didnt know what a build order was.
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On February 14 2010 05:14 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 05:09 Tsagacity wrote:On a cursory scan I don't see any macro mechanic arguments supporting what the proton charge does. Can you please quote specifically? It's not my job to find your argument supports  You're supposed to present them to me. And of course I've seen it. I've also seen 20 other interviews. "Dustin Browder interview" doesn't mean a thing to me. Out of curiosity are you trying to turn this into a arguement about the purpose of the macro mechanics? I see allot of these distractors from you like asking what my iccup ranking was. Let me try to sum up my argument as best as I can:
PC on it's own is an attention/action sink. You always want to keep it up at all times, and the excess minerals would only lead to more of the same redundant macro actions you make normally.
PC *could* conceivably contribute to a micro vs macro playstyle, but only as a result of the attention sink created.
I think the Browder part you were talking about was about micro vs macro players, but I only scanned it so I would still like you to quote the part you were talking about. Micro vs macro players are determined by where they put more of their attention.
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On February 14 2010 05:21 Tsagacity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 05:14 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 14 2010 05:09 Tsagacity wrote:On a cursory scan I don't see any macro mechanic arguments supporting what the proton charge does. Can you please quote specifically? It's not my job to find your argument supports  You're supposed to present them to me. And of course I've seen it. I've also seen 20 other interviews. "Dustin Browder interview" doesn't mean a thing to me. Out of curiosity are you trying to turn this into a arguement about the purpose of the macro mechanics? I see allot of these distractors from you like asking what my iccup ranking was. Micro vs macro players are determined by where they put more of their attention.
Good we agree on this much at least now lets answer the question, Which requires more macro action and therefore attention?
One extra action every 30 seconds plus any "macro acceleration" from pumping probes? or One extra action every 30 seconds plus about 20% increase in mineral actions?
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On February 14 2010 05:24 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 05:21 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 05:14 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 14 2010 05:09 Tsagacity wrote:On a cursory scan I don't see any macro mechanic arguments supporting what the proton charge does. Can you please quote specifically? It's not my job to find your argument supports  You're supposed to present them to me. And of course I've seen it. I've also seen 20 other interviews. "Dustin Browder interview" doesn't mean a thing to me. Out of curiosity are you trying to turn this into a arguement about the purpose of the macro mechanics? I see allot of these distractors from you like asking what my iccup ranking was. Micro vs macro players are determined by where they put more of their attention. Good we agree on this much at least now lets answer the question, Which requires more macro action and therefore attention? One extra action every 30 seconds?* or A 20% increase in the mineral intake and about 20% increase in mineral actions? *plus any "macro acceleration" from pumping probes. The first one early on, the second one through mid to late game. If your argument is that PC is effective as an attention sink then I have no qualms with you there.
Maybe I have you mistaken for someone else, but I thought in the past you were constantly trying to find ways to make the macro mechanics ALSO include choice. There's a huge following of people who criticize PC as ONLY an attention sink and nothing else.
I honestly was perfectly ok with PC because I'm an "elitist" in the mbs/apm argument. Pure APM sink is just dandy to me 
TW definitely has choice. The attention sink side we don't know yet because they've essentially told us nothing about it.
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SUPER FAST 0 build time $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ UMS MAPS HAVE THE BEST MACRO.
1. You get units as much as your actions per minute, making MACRO highly important. 2. You are maxed in under a minute with many production buildings if you know what you are doing. As units build about 100 times faster than normal, you get 100 times more MACRO. 3. You can win by rallying scouts into the enemy base, which shows that MACRO styles work perfectly, over most micro styles that wastes APM that don't even gain the advantage of a whole unit per action.
Seriously, all those iccup folks have it wrong. The UMS players are right in realizing that "fastest" maps are the ultimate evolution of starcraft, and build times is for lamers that needs time for the "micro" thingy.
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On February 14 2010 05:35 Tsagacity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 05:24 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 14 2010 05:21 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 05:14 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 14 2010 05:09 Tsagacity wrote:On a cursory scan I don't see any macro mechanic arguments supporting what the proton charge does. Can you please quote specifically? It's not my job to find your argument supports  You're supposed to present them to me. And of course I've seen it. I've also seen 20 other interviews. "Dustin Browder interview" doesn't mean a thing to me. Out of curiosity are you trying to turn this into a arguement about the purpose of the macro mechanics? I see allot of these distractors from you like asking what my iccup ranking was. Micro vs macro players are determined by where they put more of their attention. Good we agree on this much at least now lets answer the question, Which requires more macro action and therefore attention? One extra action every 30 seconds?* or A 20% increase in the mineral intake and about 20% increase in mineral actions? *plus any "macro acceleration" from pumping probes. The first one early on, the second one through mid to late game. If your argument is that PC is effective as an attention sink then I have no qualms with you there. Maybe I have you mistaken for someone else, but I thought in the past you were constantly trying to find ways to make the macro mechanics ALSO include choice. There's a huge following of people who criticize PC as ONLY an attention sink and nothing else. I honestly was perfectly ok with PC because I'm an "elitist" in the mbs/apm argument. Pure APM sink is just dandy to me  TW definitely has choice. The attention sink side we don't know yet because they've essentially told us nothing about it. I am hugely "pro-choice" but there is a fine line on this whole debate. Are you talking immidiate choice when your using the ability or choices that result from using the ability.
And actually thats not even what im talking about here. Im talking about macro acceleration comparing TW and PC.
Oh and thank you SWPIGWANG for bringing flagrant exaggeration and caps lock to the debate. Really helps your arguement.
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On February 14 2010 04:37 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 04:35 Chen wrote: AOA, just wondering how exactly do you think more money=more choices? take current broodwar for example. if you give a late-game toss player more money, is there ANYTHING he can do other than build more gateways and pump more min-heavy units? (this uses the assumption that PC gave you more mins compared to gas, since you are boosting 20 ish min probes and 3 gas ones) considering where the obelisk was on the tech tree, it can't really help in tech or upgrade decisions since most of those are done. The way I'm seeing it is you either spend your money on units, or you do not, not much of a choice to me. the only real decision would be do i want 3 more zlots, or 3 more dragoons. do you think thats a better choice than do i want a faster upgrades/high-tech units/workers? Before dealing with "what is choice" metaphysical questions pretaining to late game situations lets answer the fundamental questions. Which creates more macro actions and decisions? One extra decision every 30 seconds? or A 20% increase in the mineral intake and about 20% increase in mineral decision making? My point is that there isnt any choice because you either use PC to get more money or you dont. and after that you either spend the money on more of what you would already be doing or you dont, ie you either build more gateways/zlots or you let that money pile up. You have more money and therefore must do more repetitive actions to spend that money, but i dont see any choice a player has in how/where that money is spent, its either used or wasted. with TW you have to balance between econ, army, and tech, while with PC you either increase your econ and army size, or you dont
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On February 14 2010 07:00 Chen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 04:37 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 14 2010 04:35 Chen wrote: AOA, just wondering how exactly do you think more money=more choices? take current broodwar for example. if you give a late-game toss player more money, is there ANYTHING he can do other than build more gateways and pump more min-heavy units? (this uses the assumption that PC gave you more mins compared to gas, since you are boosting 20 ish min probes and 3 gas ones) considering where the obelisk was on the tech tree, it can't really help in tech or upgrade decisions since most of those are done. The way I'm seeing it is you either spend your money on units, or you do not, not much of a choice to me. the only real decision would be do i want 3 more zlots, or 3 more dragoons. do you think thats a better choice than do i want a faster upgrades/high-tech units/workers? Before dealing with "what is choice" metaphysical questions pretaining to late game situations lets answer the fundamental questions. Which creates more macro actions and decisions? One extra decision every 30 seconds? or A 20% increase in the mineral intake and about 20% increase in mineral decision making? My point is that there isnt any choice because you either use PC to get more money or you dont. and after that you either spend the money on more of what you would already be doing or you dont, ie you either build more gateways/zlots or you let that money pile up.
And my point is that, even though you dont think of it that way, spending minerals contains much decision making, from what ratio of units to build, to whether to build more unit production buildings, to when to expand, to even where to place that next pylon.
Compared to all the other mineral decisions you are making at any moment the 1 decision every 30 seconds of where to target TW is actually pretty small. Thats not to say it isnt important but in terms of differentiating macro and micro playstyles the amount of mineral actions far surpass the 1 action per 30 seconds that TW contributes.
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On February 14 2010 07:05 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 07:00 Chen wrote:On February 14 2010 04:37 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 14 2010 04:35 Chen wrote: AOA, just wondering how exactly do you think more money=more choices? take current broodwar for example. if you give a late-game toss player more money, is there ANYTHING he can do other than build more gateways and pump more min-heavy units? (this uses the assumption that PC gave you more mins compared to gas, since you are boosting 20 ish min probes and 3 gas ones) considering where the obelisk was on the tech tree, it can't really help in tech or upgrade decisions since most of those are done. The way I'm seeing it is you either spend your money on units, or you do not, not much of a choice to me. the only real decision would be do i want 3 more zlots, or 3 more dragoons. do you think thats a better choice than do i want a faster upgrades/high-tech units/workers? Before dealing with "what is choice" metaphysical questions pretaining to late game situations lets answer the fundamental questions. Which creates more macro actions and decisions? One extra decision every 30 seconds? or A 20% increase in the mineral intake and about 20% increase in mineral decision making? My point is that there isnt any choice because you either use PC to get more money or you dont. and after that you either spend the money on more of what you would already be doing or you dont, ie you either build more gateways/zlots or you let that money pile up. And my point is that, even though you dont think of it that way, spending minerals contains much decision making, from what ratio of units to build, to whether to build more unit production buildings, to when to expand, to even where to place that next pylon. Compared to all the other mineral decisions you are making at any moment the 1 decision every 30 seconds of where to target TW is actually pretty small. Thats not to say it isnt important but in terms of differentiating macro and micro playstyles the amount of mineral actions far surpass the 1 action per 30 seconds that TW contributes. alright, yes PC makes you click more times to get the full use out of it, i just think that TW offers alot more choices. I just done see what PC adds since you do the exact same thing as what you normally do, just more of it and faster. ie the pylon placement players pre-choose from practice games and unit ratios will probably stay the same I also like TW alot more because there is a balance between tech, army size, and economy, rather than auto-boost to economy and army size as long as you have the right APM.
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so beta release is just around the corner and they are still making such a huge edits?
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On February 14 2010 07:23 ProoM wrote: so beta release is just around the corner and they are still making such a huge edits? Go look at the original SC beta -_- SC2 looks finished and ready for release in comparison.
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Serious question to everyone. Do you really believe that TW wont eventually become incorporated into BO and "pre-chosen" before the game?
How is this different or the same from any other limited BO resource like say gas?
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On February 14 2010 07:23 ProoM wrote: so beta release is just around the corner and they are still making such a huge edits?
Yes and they will continue making 'huge edits' throughout the beta.
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On February 14 2010 07:26 Archerofaiur wrote: Serious question to everyone. Do you really believe that TW wont eventually become incorporated into BO and "pre-chosen" before the game?
How is this different or the same from any other limited BO resource like say gas? yes it will once it's figured out how to optimize the usage. further than that, there will only really be "decision making" with it until that happens, after that it will be do this or you're behind. (which will be another "monotonous" task if i might add)
edit - i meant in relation to which build you're choosing, but that will be the real "decision making", it's not really dictated by macro mechanics unless something is particularly abusive
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On February 14 2010 07:26 Archerofaiur wrote: Serious question to everyone. Do you really believe that TW wont eventually become incorporated into BO and "pre-chosen" before the game?
How is this different or the same from any other limited BO resource like say gas?
Of course it will be incorporated. However, as I've said before I think it is superior to PC because it can potentially do what PC did (increased minerals through increased probe production) but it can also be utilized on attack units or upgrades which allows the player to manipulate timings which they could not do with PC.
That said, TW (depending upon specific stats) can do exactly what PC did while simultaneously broadening the macro-game. That is, TW will provide a greater number of 'optimized build orders' while simultaneously adding flexibility to the game as a whole by offering more 'on-the-spot' non-pre-chosen options to players for when they are for example tricked and need to deviate from their pre-chosen-BO.
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On February 14 2010 07:23 ProoM wrote: so beta release is just around the corner and they are still making such a huge edits?
In the SC Beta Queen had the actual Mutalisk attack, and Mutalisk attacked with an acid. Carriers had 10 interceptors, etc. In the pre-beta defilers where air units.
SC2 beta is more defined and balanced that SC1 beta.
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Proposal for New Protoss Macro Mechanic
Protoss building that every couple of seconds lets you increase unit production, upgrades or even building production. Should lead to crazy build orders where players can funnel this power into one area for timing advantages. Also promotes macro gameplay because the player will have to issue specific commands about where this benefit should be directed. Should be limited to only one per base.
+ Show Spoiler +
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Sweden33719 Posts
I'm starting to feel like you are just trolling ;o
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On February 14 2010 08:31 FrozenArbiter wrote: I'm starting to feel like you are just trolling ;o
No Im analyzing, drawing connections, etc. Im being kind of tongue and cheek about it but allot of that reflects my belief that the designers who created the original RTS games really did have an incredible understanding of game mechanics. Thats been kind of a running theme in my observation of this whole macro movement. From it I have developed an immense respect for the guys behind Dune II.
They really were geniuses to understand and integrate game infrastructure in the way they did. It reminds me of studying biology and being amazed how well everything is put together. For instance im studying kidneys and you can ask anyone whose studied them, they are god damn amazing. In not so many words....elegant. Thats the same kind of feeling I get when I look at how the core of RTS macro infrastructure was designed almost 20 years ago.
Whether Starcraft 2's macro will reach that same level remains to be seen.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Serious question to everyone. Do you really believe that TW wont eventually become incorporated into BO and "pre-chosen" before the game?
How is this different or the same from any other limited BO resource like say gas? Yes it will be, but unlike PC (which is "click here, every 30 seconds, every game, every build) there is at least room for variations here.
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I think the big difference between PC and TW is that PC only gives you more minerals and their fore gives game play adaptability in a very limited form (how you spend the minerals). But TW provides you with increased game flexibility in that you can use it to more quickly perform a tech switch in order to better adapt to your opponents play at the temporary expense of slower unit production. Combine TW with the fact that Protoss are already more adaptable (caused by the upside down pyramid structure of their tech tree) and they will have a lot more survivability in late game.
In late game PC only served to deplete your minerals more quickly and make starvation less favourable for you. By balancing the race around the fact that they don't have a resource mechanic they allow the Protoss to have income for a longer period of time than Terran or Zerg in a starvation situation.
These two factors added together give Protoss a lot of mid-late game viability in comparison.
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Oh shit he went DTs TIMEWARP AN OBS ASAP
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I'm glad that they dropped the obelisk, i like the ability a lot i think its a cool addition to the game and that it will be interesting to see how it affects game play. but i think having a completely new building just to add this one ability was a bit silly im glad that they are giving the nexus a larger role in the game.
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Archerofaiur; you are most probably the biggest attention seeker on here. You put out theories and thesis's' all the time. It seems as though all your ideas are the best ones, and there are holes in everybody elses. And whenever Blizzard does anything remotely like what you suggested, you fanatically point to the said 'post' and launch into your theory-crafting again.
Seriously; extrapolating on the smallest, iddy biddy thing and trying to dissect the consequences of wild speculation is getting very old, very quickly.
When the beta comes out, I expect videos demonstrating why certain mechanics are bad before you make any drawn out extrapolations.
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Arch: A good game is not about taking something that is good and make the player do a lot of that. For example, we all know M&M micro is fun, so does that mean SC2 should remove the factor so they don't do lame timing pushes?
If you want to make a game where everyone macros a lot more, it is simple and does not require an "macro mechanic". Just play altered starcraft UMS where everything costs half as much and build twice as fast, or something of that sorts. The whole APM and macro requirement thing is just smoke and mirrors anyways. Yes you can solve it by something as trivial as tweaking the costs and build times. The problem is how to make something interesting in itself as opposed to brute forcing a solution like that. --- You say it is not better than an extra resource, like gas. Yes, that is true, and adding an mandatory resource well add quite a bit of complexity to the macro of starcraft, but probably too much for a sequel. This is not age of empires games or HOI and macro ultimately is only so important.
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On February 14 2010 12:08 SWPIGWANG wrote: Arch: A good game is not about taking something that is good and make the player do a lot of that. For example, we all know M&M micro is fun, so does that mean SC2 should remove the factor so they don't do lame timing pushes?
If you want to make a game where everyone macros a lot more, it is simple and does not require an "macro mechanic". Just play altered starcraft UMS where everything costs half as much and build twice as fast, or something of that sorts. The whole APM and macro requirement thing is just smoke and mirrors anyways. Yes you can solve it by something as trivial as tweaking the costs and build times. The problem is how to make something interesting in itself as opposed to brute forcing a solution like that. --- You say it is not better than an extra resource, like gas. Yes, that is true, and adding an mandatory resource well add quite a bit of complexity to the macro of starcraft, but probably too much for a sequel. This is not age of empires games or HOI and macro ultimately is only so important.
i don't understand, what does marine micro have anything to do with timing windows?
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I always like to try and reduce arguments down to their simplest form. That said, can't we think of TW as being a form of PC by allowing to create extra probes faster, allowing you to gain more minerals faster, having to make more decisions as to what to do with those minerals; however, the numbers won't add up exactly, so it won't be exactly a 20% increase, but it's still an increase and performs a similar action as the Dark Obelisk. Would then an argument be that PC is better because the 20% increase creates a better macro playstyle than faster probe generation?
But, on top of that, we can choose not to do produce probes and instead accelerate certain tech choices, making for unusual timings for tech and unit counts, able to be used in both an offensive and defensive role?
The choices are certainly there to play different styles, including a more macro based playstyle. Whether or not extra probes is meaningful for a macro style though, we can't really say for sure yet.
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On February 14 2010 07:26 Archerofaiur wrote: Serious question to everyone. Do you really believe that TW wont eventually become incorporated into BO and "pre-chosen" before the game?
How is this different or the same from any other limited BO resource like say gas?
No, I don't. By definition, a BO involves a plan and so any macro mechanic that ever exists will be incorporated into a BO somehow. This does not make them all the same.
While I guess you might just be the skeptic responding to the overwhelming positive feedback concerning Time Warp, if you can't really see why it's actually better than proton charge then you probably can't see why kids like cinnamon toast crunch either.
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I wonder if TW has an animation so you can scout it.
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Sounds like an interesting idea, what I really would like to know is if this ability forces you to cut workers while it builds, similar to how you have to temporarily stop building workers to build a comsat. That could make it a really interesting dynamic.
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On February 14 2010 07:26 Archerofaiur wrote: Serious question to everyone. Do you really believe that TW wont eventually become incorporated into BO and "pre-chosen" before the game?
How is this different or the same from any other limited BO resource like say gas? Eventually there will be 1 build to rule them all, you just pick the right build and win, theres not that much to this game, Dune II was better yeah
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so what is the logic of this ability? To force players to tech DT super fast in order to stop terrans from using energy on mules and use it on scans? That's kinda dumb imo.
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On February 14 2010 17:42 CharlieMurphy wrote: so what is the logic of this ability? To force players to tech DT super fast in order to stop terrans from using energy on mules and use it on scans? That's kinda dumb imo. No... Logic is to force players do any fucking thing they want. But faster
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On February 14 2010 17:42 CharlieMurphy wrote: so what is the logic of this ability? To force players to tech DT super fast in order to stop terrans from using energy on mules and use it on scans? That's kinda dumb imo. Tell me how this ability in any way makes teching to DT faster. It doesn't. This ability does not allow you to create tech buildings more quickly, only to research/upgrade or produce. And don't give me +1 attack because we don't know the current health and damage stats for these units and you can not assume that DT require +1 to be effective.
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The macro mechanics are made to make a larger distinction between macro play and micro play. How do you best do that? By including some form of choice were one choice benefits your macro side and the other your micro side of course. One version of this is to include attention needing macro mechanics, both of these are. However TW also has the ability to benefit the micro side rather than macro making the split greater between the playingstyles.
Using it for probes would be macro and using it for units/upgrades would be micro. Dark pylon was way more boring, if you go macro style you build it early otherwise you build it a bit later.
Also even if it is included in your "bo" it offers a lot more flexibility, build orders aren't static, you need to adapt to what your enemy does. Choosing another TW target is adaption and that is not possible with the PC.
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so how the fuck is this an alternative to a macro mechanic then>
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Increasing unit production is a macro orientated ability. Upgrades/research is part of the macro system. How is this not macro orientated?
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United States47024 Posts
On February 15 2010 07:43 CharlieMurphy wrote: so how the fuck is this an alternative to a macro mechanic then> It is a macro mechanic, as you can use it on your Nexus to boost probe production. It just happens to have alternative uses with regard to production of other units and tech.
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So let's just assume for a moment that TW will work in a similar fashion to that of a comsat. You cut worker production for a moment to build the add on/research the TW ability. Again let's also assume that in a similar fashion to comsat, it will take energy to use the ability. We'll give it a random energy cost of 25 to use and a energy start off point of 25 as well.
Okay, now apply this ability to a regular SC:BW scenario. Let's say you go for a 2 gate build into DT rush. Just for the sake of argument we'll make it that the TW nexus "add-on" (upgrade whatever you want to call it) only requires a gateway before you can upgrade the ability or build the add on (build time will be comparable to comsat once again).. You use the TW on probes until around the time you begin your Templar Archives and then at that point you begin to save your energy. As soon as archives is done, bam, spend your energy on both gateways, accelerating the 2 dts build speed to 3x as fast.
Now just compare these results to acquiring 20% more income and see which nets the quicker dt rush. I 100% guarantee that the TW scenario would get you faster dts than 20% income would. The only thing you'd probably have is an extra pylon and an extra couple zealots/cannons. This proves TW adds a vastly greater number of options.
The key point I'm trying to make here is if this ability is energy based, being able to save energy for mid/late game tech of some sort is a pretty big deal. It's the same concept as cutting workers, taking workers off of gas to get something faster but much more efficient/cost effective.
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On February 14 2010 21:08 Klockan3 wrote:
Using it for probes would be macro and using it for units/upgrades would be micro. Dark pylon was way more boring, if you go macro style you build it early otherwise you build it a bit later.
Er, building units and upgrading is still macro by the common definition. Micro is commanding your units in the field, macro is building and commanding your buildings, which includes unit production and tech research.
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On February 15 2010 09:38 kidcrash wrote: So let's just assume for a moment that TW will work in a similar fashion to that of a comsat. You cut worker production for a moment to build the add on/research the TW ability. Again let's also assume that in a similar fashion to comsat, it will take energy to use the ability. We'll give it a random energy cost of 25 to use and a energy start off point of 25 as well.
Okay, now apply this ability to a regular SC:BW scenario. Let's say you go for a 2 gate build into DT rush. Just for the sake of argument we'll make it that the TW nexus "add-on" (upgrade whatever you want to call it) only requires a gateway before you can upgrade the ability or build the add on (build time will be comparable to comsat once again).. You use the TW on probes until around the time you begin your Templar Archives and then at that point you begin to save your energy. As soon as archives is done, bam, spend your energy on both gateways, accelerating the 2 dts build speed to 3x as fast.
Now just compare these results to acquiring 20% more income and see which nets the quicker dt rush. I 100% guarantee that the TW scenario would get you faster dts than 20% income would. The only thing you'd probably have is an extra pylon and an extra couple zealots/cannons. This proves TW adds a vastly greater number of options.
The key point I'm trying to make here is if this ability is energy based, being able to save energy for mid/late game tech of some sort is a pretty big deal. It's the same concept as cutting workers, taking workers off of gas to get something faster but much more efficient/cost effective.
since you're using arbitrary values one could also say that you could find a way to rush to dts fastest by cutting probes at a certain point. 20% more income would allow you to do the probe-cut build minus the probe cutting. essentially the same thing
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Now matter how much money you have to still have to wait for things to build. How many times have you put down a citadel AS SOON as your core finished. How many times have you put down your archives AS SOON as your citadel finishes. You better believe I'm ready to start those 2 dts once that archives finishes so there is absolutely no time wasted. All the money in the world cannot speed up time. I do understand there is an extent where more money will provide you these things faster. In this scenario I believe it to be a negligible difference when compared to getting your dts getting out quicker due to a faster build time (without assuming any numbers i can confidently say this).
Not to mention the fact that spending TW on producing probes faster until dt time makes this even quicker. This will help narrow the gap between the economic advantage of a 20% income gain, in the race to see which ability gets you to X tech faster. Also, how many times have you had to make a quick tech switch because you scouted something that changed your plans. Let's face it, you can not scout everything your opponent does 100% of the time no matter how pro you are. This puts a huge cushion on that problem. Anytime I get put in that emergency situation where I need unit x asap or my opponent's unit y will kill me, money is not the issue, time is. Can we all agree that with any race we get put in that situation from time to time?
Once again the dt example is only the tip of the iceberg but I believe it makes a good example in that we can compare this to something we already understand (SC:BW).
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On February 15 2010 12:56 kidcrash wrote:
Not to mention the fact that spending TW on producing probes faster until dt time makes this even quicker. This will help narrow the gap between the economic advantage of a 20% income gain, in the race to see which ability gets you to X tech faster. Also, how many times have you had to make a quick tech switch because you scouted something that changed your plans. Let's face it, you can not scout everything your opponent does 100% of the time no matter how pro you are. This puts a huge cushion on that problem. Anytime I get put in that emergency situation where I need unit x asap or my opponent's unit y will kill me, money is not the issue, time is. Can we all agree that with any race we get put in that situation from time to time?
and that's exactly why a player should be punished for not scouting. are you really saying when that "oh shit" moment from lack of scouting happens you should be able to pull through just from a racial ability?
edit- clarify - the entire point of "macro mechanics" is to prevent optimal play(as opposed to optimized). when you have something like that it seems way too close to the borderline of how to make a best way to play
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It is still a punishment because you don't get to use TW on what you WANTED to use it on, instead you are forced to use it on something that you absolutely have to. Are you saying you've never been surprised by another players build order before? I think this even happens from time to time in the pro scene let alone at lesser levels.
Yes, you should be able to pull through it from your racial ability. Your terran opponent is getting more minerals and your zerg opponents are getting more units produced. I think this fairly balances those aspects out in perspective. Basically it is making the race of protoss as a whole more adaptable. So what if it doesn't fit into the exact definition of a macro mechanic. As long as it is balanced between the 3 races and its not mindless then who cares what definition it fits under. That is the "entire point" in my opinion.
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It fits perfectly to the definition of a macro mechanic though in any case
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Canada11349 Posts
I feel like I've read this argument before- possibly on SWPIGWANG's thread?
Honestly, the 'PC promotes a greater macro-play style' argument feels like it's an argument to justify it's own existence. Macro doesn't disappear without PC as it is integral to playing the game. Building more bases, workers, production facilities, units, etc will still be rewarded. TW will continue that theme presumably of being able to build workers faster. In addition, because SCII units are fragile (high attack, low health), macro will continue to be rewarded (vs our dear friend WCIII).
So if macro (which I see as 'building more crap faster' ) is intrinsic to the game and my choice is 1) build more crap faster through repetition (PC) or 2) choice to tech faster or build more crap faster (TW)
Then I will happily choose #2 and say screw macro-style gameplay- it'll happen anyways. Blizzard is providing strategic gameplay options and I say bring on the beta!
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