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On February 14 2010 03:40 Tsagacity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 03:33 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 14 2010 02:10 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 00:30 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 13 2010 20:07 Klockan3 wrote:On February 13 2010 07:14 Archerofaiur wrote:
1. The mechanic affects ALL aspects of macromanagement and not just one specific area like Proton Charge did. This in itself causes it to have a lot of targetting tension, since the player must decide and balance between increased economic growth, increased unit production and accelerated tech.
PC (via increased minerals) increased economic growth, unit production, supply, etc... Extra minerals do not give you any more choice than you already had without it, except when you should build it in your BO. I think your missing that minerals like research times and unit production are pacing elements. Choosing where to focus these pacing element enhancers is what you would call decision making. This is true for both PC and TW with the exception that PC does not affect research pacing and TW does not effect supply pacing. Quick before everyone starts writing telling me all the differences between TW and PC make sure you go back and read those sentences and understand what im saying (hint im not just saying they are the same) So ultimatly your arguement is that extra minerals isnt choice because it can just be part of your BO. By that same logic Time Warp "lists" could be built into BOs. Also your statement ignores that game circumstances and progression can cause players to diverge off the BO beaten path. There's no choice at all with PC; this is silly. Mining 6 minerals instead of 5 just speeds you up. You have to make the same decisions regardless. If SC:BW was patched so that worked mined 10 minerals instead of 8, would that add more choice to the game? It would change how the game is played, but it would not add any new choices or skill to the game. We don't know much about time warp, but if it targets a single building then it has a ton more choice in every build order. The big thing your missing is causation. You think the decision making just stops once the ability is casted. You have to look at what it does for the gameplay expierence as a whole. Ok so ive just given you 200 extra minerals. What are all the possible choices you can make with it? Zealots, probes, pylons, gateways, cannons, forge, core...and thats not even counting what you can do with some more gas.. These are the same choices any player makes with their minerals in SC:BW regardless of race. Increasing someone's income does not add choice, it just makes them go through their choices faster. Whether or not I want to make a zealot, a probe, a gateway, or a cannon is not a special decision added thanks to PC.
The decisions are the same but the rate is increased. Decision Making per unit time.
Thats adding decision making. Just to throw made up numbers out their at minute ten you will have made 25% more base decisions then you would have without PC.
Unless you want to start argueing that Spawn Larva doesnt have decision making since you would have made the larva decisions eventually :p
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On February 14 2010 03:43 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 03:40 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 03:33 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 14 2010 02:10 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 00:30 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 13 2010 20:07 Klockan3 wrote:On February 13 2010 07:14 Archerofaiur wrote:
1. The mechanic affects ALL aspects of macromanagement and not just one specific area like Proton Charge did. This in itself causes it to have a lot of targetting tension, since the player must decide and balance between increased economic growth, increased unit production and accelerated tech.
PC (via increased minerals) increased economic growth, unit production, supply, etc... Extra minerals do not give you any more choice than you already had without it, except when you should build it in your BO. I think your missing that minerals like research times and unit production are pacing elements. Choosing where to focus these pacing element enhancers is what you would call decision making. This is true for both PC and TW with the exception that PC does not affect research pacing and TW does not effect supply pacing. Quick before everyone starts writing telling me all the differences between TW and PC make sure you go back and read those sentences and understand what im saying (hint im not just saying they are the same) So ultimatly your arguement is that extra minerals isnt choice because it can just be part of your BO. By that same logic Time Warp "lists" could be built into BOs. Also your statement ignores that game circumstances and progression can cause players to diverge off the BO beaten path. There's no choice at all with PC; this is silly. Mining 6 minerals instead of 5 just speeds you up. You have to make the same decisions regardless. If SC:BW was patched so that worked mined 10 minerals instead of 8, would that add more choice to the game? It would change how the game is played, but it would not add any new choices or skill to the game. We don't know much about time warp, but if it targets a single building then it has a ton more choice in every build order. The big thing your missing is causation. You think the decision making just stops once the ability is casted. You have to look at what it does for the gameplay expierence as a whole. Ok so ive just given you 200 extra minerals. What are all the possible choices you can make with it? Zealots, probes, pylons, gateways, cannons, forge, core...and thats not even counting what you can do with some more gas.. These are the same choices any player makes with their minerals in SC:BW regardless of race. Increasing someone's income does not add choice, it just makes them go through their choices faster. Whether or not I want to make a zealot, a probe, a gateway, or a cannon is not a special decision added thanks to PC. The decisions are the same but the rate is increased. Decision Making per unit time. Thats adding decision making. Just to throw made up numbers out their at minute ten you will have made 25% more base decisions then you would have without PC. All this does is dilute each process. You make more decisions, but each decision has less of an impact. For example going barracks before supply in TvZ is just about the only decision you will make in the first minute, but it is a HUGE decision.
Unless you want to start argueing that Spawn Larva doesnt have decision making since you would have made the larva decisions eventually :p Spawn larvae isn't a breakthrough either, but it does add some more variety and contributes a lot to different playstyles. One example to demonstrate the difference between more larvae and PC is that you can't use PC to pump out a shit-ton of probes.
To be honest I've never been particularly thrilled with inject, but I've never felt zerg need anything more either. The choices with econ and drone timings for zerg in SC:BW already add a very cool additional lair for zerg.
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On February 14 2010 03:58 Tsagacity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 03:43 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 14 2010 03:40 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 03:33 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 14 2010 02:10 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 00:30 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 13 2010 20:07 Klockan3 wrote:On February 13 2010 07:14 Archerofaiur wrote:
1. The mechanic affects ALL aspects of macromanagement and not just one specific area like Proton Charge did. This in itself causes it to have a lot of targetting tension, since the player must decide and balance between increased economic growth, increased unit production and accelerated tech.
PC (via increased minerals) increased economic growth, unit production, supply, etc... Extra minerals do not give you any more choice than you already had without it, except when you should build it in your BO. I think your missing that minerals like research times and unit production are pacing elements. Choosing where to focus these pacing element enhancers is what you would call decision making. This is true for both PC and TW with the exception that PC does not affect research pacing and TW does not effect supply pacing. Quick before everyone starts writing telling me all the differences between TW and PC make sure you go back and read those sentences and understand what im saying (hint im not just saying they are the same) So ultimatly your arguement is that extra minerals isnt choice because it can just be part of your BO. By that same logic Time Warp "lists" could be built into BOs. Also your statement ignores that game circumstances and progression can cause players to diverge off the BO beaten path. There's no choice at all with PC; this is silly. Mining 6 minerals instead of 5 just speeds you up. You have to make the same decisions regardless. If SC:BW was patched so that worked mined 10 minerals instead of 8, would that add more choice to the game? It would change how the game is played, but it would not add any new choices or skill to the game. We don't know much about time warp, but if it targets a single building then it has a ton more choice in every build order. The big thing your missing is causation. You think the decision making just stops once the ability is casted. You have to look at what it does for the gameplay expierence as a whole. Ok so ive just given you 200 extra minerals. What are all the possible choices you can make with it? Zealots, probes, pylons, gateways, cannons, forge, core...and thats not even counting what you can do with some more gas.. These are the same choices any player makes with their minerals in SC:BW regardless of race. Increasing someone's income does not add choice, it just makes them go through their choices faster. Whether or not I want to make a zealot, a probe, a gateway, or a cannon is not a special decision added thanks to PC. The decisions are the same but the rate is increased. Decision Making per unit time. Thats adding decision making. Just to throw made up numbers out their at minute ten you will have made 25% more base decisions then you would have without PC. All this does is dilute each process. You make more decisions, but each decision has less of an impact. For example going barracks before supply in TvZ is just about the only decision you will make in the first minute, but it is a HUGE decision. Show nested quote +Unless you want to start argueing that Spawn Larva doesnt have decision making since you would have made the larva decisions eventually :p Spawn larvae isn't a breakthrough either, but it does add some more variety and contributes a lot to different playstyles. One example to demonstrate the difference between more larvae and PC is that you can't use PC to pump out a shit-ton of probes.
Now your argueing more about the kinds of decision making rather than the amount of decision making. Your original arguement was that PC offered no decision making. Do you see how your arguement has shifted?
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On February 14 2010 04:00 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 03:58 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 03:43 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 14 2010 03:40 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 03:33 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 14 2010 02:10 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 00:30 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 13 2010 20:07 Klockan3 wrote:On February 13 2010 07:14 Archerofaiur wrote:
1. The mechanic affects ALL aspects of macromanagement and not just one specific area like Proton Charge did. This in itself causes it to have a lot of targetting tension, since the player must decide and balance between increased economic growth, increased unit production and accelerated tech.
PC (via increased minerals) increased economic growth, unit production, supply, etc... Extra minerals do not give you any more choice than you already had without it, except when you should build it in your BO. I think your missing that minerals like research times and unit production are pacing elements. Choosing where to focus these pacing element enhancers is what you would call decision making. This is true for both PC and TW with the exception that PC does not affect research pacing and TW does not effect supply pacing. Quick before everyone starts writing telling me all the differences between TW and PC make sure you go back and read those sentences and understand what im saying (hint im not just saying they are the same) So ultimatly your arguement is that extra minerals isnt choice because it can just be part of your BO. By that same logic Time Warp "lists" could be built into BOs. Also your statement ignores that game circumstances and progression can cause players to diverge off the BO beaten path. There's no choice at all with PC; this is silly. Mining 6 minerals instead of 5 just speeds you up. You have to make the same decisions regardless. If SC:BW was patched so that worked mined 10 minerals instead of 8, would that add more choice to the game? It would change how the game is played, but it would not add any new choices or skill to the game. We don't know much about time warp, but if it targets a single building then it has a ton more choice in every build order. The big thing your missing is causation. You think the decision making just stops once the ability is casted. You have to look at what it does for the gameplay expierence as a whole. Ok so ive just given you 200 extra minerals. What are all the possible choices you can make with it? Zealots, probes, pylons, gateways, cannons, forge, core...and thats not even counting what you can do with some more gas.. These are the same choices any player makes with their minerals in SC:BW regardless of race. Increasing someone's income does not add choice, it just makes them go through their choices faster. Whether or not I want to make a zealot, a probe, a gateway, or a cannon is not a special decision added thanks to PC. The decisions are the same but the rate is increased. Decision Making per unit time. Thats adding decision making. Just to throw made up numbers out their at minute ten you will have made 25% more base decisions then you would have without PC. All this does is dilute each process. You make more decisions, but each decision has less of an impact. For example going barracks before supply in TvZ is just about the only decision you will make in the first minute, but it is a HUGE decision. Unless you want to start argueing that Spawn Larva doesnt have decision making since you would have made the larva decisions eventually :p Spawn larvae isn't a breakthrough either, but it does add some more variety and contributes a lot to different playstyles. One example to demonstrate the difference between more larvae and PC is that you can't use PC to pump out a shit-ton of probes. Now your argueing more about the kinds of decision making rather than the amount of decision making. Your original arguement was that PC had no decision making. Do you see how your arguement has shifted? No, I don't.
Do you see how passively increasing a player's mineral income doesn't add anything to the game?
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On February 14 2010 04:02 Tsagacity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 04:00 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 14 2010 03:58 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 03:43 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 14 2010 03:40 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 03:33 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 14 2010 02:10 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 00:30 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 13 2010 20:07 Klockan3 wrote:On February 13 2010 07:14 Archerofaiur wrote:
[quote]
PC (via increased minerals) increased economic growth, unit production, supply, etc...
Extra minerals do not give you any more choice than you already had without it, except when you should build it in your BO. I think your missing that minerals like research times and unit production are pacing elements. Choosing where to focus these pacing element enhancers is what you would call decision making. This is true for both PC and TW with the exception that PC does not affect research pacing and TW does not effect supply pacing. Quick before everyone starts writing telling me all the differences between TW and PC make sure you go back and read those sentences and understand what im saying (hint im not just saying they are the same) So ultimatly your arguement is that extra minerals isnt choice because it can just be part of your BO. By that same logic Time Warp "lists" could be built into BOs. Also your statement ignores that game circumstances and progression can cause players to diverge off the BO beaten path. There's no choice at all with PC; this is silly. Mining 6 minerals instead of 5 just speeds you up. You have to make the same decisions regardless. If SC:BW was patched so that worked mined 10 minerals instead of 8, would that add more choice to the game? It would change how the game is played, but it would not add any new choices or skill to the game. We don't know much about time warp, but if it targets a single building then it has a ton more choice in every build order. The big thing your missing is causation. You think the decision making just stops once the ability is casted. You have to look at what it does for the gameplay expierence as a whole. Ok so ive just given you 200 extra minerals. What are all the possible choices you can make with it? Zealots, probes, pylons, gateways, cannons, forge, core...and thats not even counting what you can do with some more gas.. These are the same choices any player makes with their minerals in SC:BW regardless of race. Increasing someone's income does not add choice, it just makes them go through their choices faster. Whether or not I want to make a zealot, a probe, a gateway, or a cannon is not a special decision added thanks to PC. The decisions are the same but the rate is increased. Decision Making per unit time. Thats adding decision making. Just to throw made up numbers out their at minute ten you will have made 25% more base decisions then you would have without PC. All this does is dilute each process. You make more decisions, but each decision has less of an impact. For example going barracks before supply in TvZ is just about the only decision you will make in the first minute, but it is a HUGE decision. Unless you want to start argueing that Spawn Larva doesnt have decision making since you would have made the larva decisions eventually :p Spawn larvae isn't a breakthrough either, but it does add some more variety and contributes a lot to different playstyles. One example to demonstrate the difference between more larvae and PC is that you can't use PC to pump out a shit-ton of probes. Now your argueing more about the kinds of decision making rather than the amount of decision making. Your original arguement was that PC had no decision making. Do you see how your arguement has shifted? No, I don't.
Try reading through it once more 
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On February 14 2010 04:04 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 04:02 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 04:00 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 14 2010 03:58 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 03:43 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 14 2010 03:40 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 03:33 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 14 2010 02:10 Tsagacity wrote:On February 14 2010 00:30 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 13 2010 20:07 Klockan3 wrote:
[quote]
Extra minerals do not give you any more choice than you already had without it, except when you should build it in your BO.
I think your missing that minerals like research times and unit production are pacing elements. Choosing where to focus these pacing element enhancers is what you would call decision making. This is true for both PC and TW with the exception that PC does not affect research pacing and TW does not effect supply pacing. Quick before everyone starts writing telling me all the differences between TW and PC make sure you go back and read those sentences and understand what im saying (hint im not just saying they are the same) So ultimatly your arguement is that extra minerals isnt choice because it can just be part of your BO. By that same logic Time Warp "lists" could be built into BOs. Also your statement ignores that game circumstances and progression can cause players to diverge off the BO beaten path. There's no choice at all with PC; this is silly. Mining 6 minerals instead of 5 just speeds you up. You have to make the same decisions regardless. If SC:BW was patched so that worked mined 10 minerals instead of 8, would that add more choice to the game? It would change how the game is played, but it would not add any new choices or skill to the game. We don't know much about time warp, but if it targets a single building then it has a ton more choice in every build order. The big thing your missing is causation. You think the decision making just stops once the ability is casted. You have to look at what it does for the gameplay expierence as a whole. Ok so ive just given you 200 extra minerals. What are all the possible choices you can make with it? Zealots, probes, pylons, gateways, cannons, forge, core...and thats not even counting what you can do with some more gas.. These are the same choices any player makes with their minerals in SC:BW regardless of race. Increasing someone's income does not add choice, it just makes them go through their choices faster. Whether or not I want to make a zealot, a probe, a gateway, or a cannon is not a special decision added thanks to PC. The decisions are the same but the rate is increased. Decision Making per unit time. Thats adding decision making. Just to throw made up numbers out their at minute ten you will have made 25% more base decisions then you would have without PC. All this does is dilute each process. You make more decisions, but each decision has less of an impact. For example going barracks before supply in TvZ is just about the only decision you will make in the first minute, but it is a HUGE decision. Unless you want to start argueing that Spawn Larva doesnt have decision making since you would have made the larva decisions eventually :p Spawn larvae isn't a breakthrough either, but it does add some more variety and contributes a lot to different playstyles. One example to demonstrate the difference between more larvae and PC is that you can't use PC to pump out a shit-ton of probes. Now your argueing more about the kinds of decision making rather than the amount of decision making. Your original arguement was that PC had no decision making. Do you see how your arguement has shifted? No, I don't. Try reading through it once more Try reading what I said once more
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Remember by your own admission about PC
On February 14 2010 03:58 Tsagacity wrote:
You make more decisions,
Were looking at the overall effect on gameplay. The purpose of the macro mechanics is ultimatly to promote macro playstyles. Part of that includes giving the player more decisions to make in base. So I ask you which creates more decisions overall?
One extra decision every 30 seconds?
or
A 20% increase in the mineral intake and about 20% increase in mineral decision making.?
Now the question is fuzzy without clear numbers and to complicate things TW can be used to increase minerals through probe. However I would be very surprised if the increase in minerals from probe pumping came close to increasing the mineral advantage of Proton Charge. It seems to me that overall Proton Charge results in a far more accelerate and overall more decision making gameplay expeirence.
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You don't seem to understand the difference between the number of decisions and and actual increase in CHOICE.
Here's the key word for my argument: REDUNDANT. These aren't any kind of complex decision, they're set actions that don't increase your choices. You're just fooled by the illusion of choice.
In any given protoss game, your excess minerals can be used for a number of different things, but set rules simplify this process that it could often be determined with a flow chart.
If you're about to be supply blocked, you use it on a pylon. If not then you use it on a non-producing structure (make probe/zealot). If all your structures are producing you build another gateway.
There's no unique decision added here. You may have the illusion of choice, but the only choice is "Do you want to suck, or not to suck?" I mean, if you want to use all your money on massing pylons, I guess now you can choose to make 11 pylons in a minute instead of 10.
Compared this to time warp in contrast, which allows you to add a (hopefully significant) boost to any number of individual strategies. You actually do have a choice here in whether or not you want blink timing, +1 timing, early storm, or an early colossus.
TL;DR PC only adds choice to the game if you consider choosing to supply block yourself for no benefit an actual choice.
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On February 14 2010 04:19 Tsagacity wrote:
You don't seem to understand the difference between the number of decisions and and actual increase in CHOICE.
Here's the key word for my argument: REDUNDANT. These aren't any kind of complex decision, they're set actions that don't increase your choices. You're just fooled by the illusion of choice.
In any given protoss game, your excess minerals can be used for a number of different things, but set rules simplify this process that it could often be determined with a flow chart.
If you're about to be supply blocked, you use it on a pylon. If not then you use it on a non-producing structure (make probe/zealot). If all your structures are producing you build another gateway.
There's no unique decision added here. You may have the illusion of choice, but the only choice is "Do you want to suck, or not to suck?" I mean, if you want to use all your money on massing pylons, I guess now you can choose to make 11 pylons in a minute instead of 10.
Compared this to time warp in contrast, which allows you to add a (hopefully significant) boost to any number of individual strategies. You actually do have a choice here in whether or not you want blink timing, +1 timing, early storm, or an early colossus.
Careful. I could just as easily reduce Time Warp to Build Order material.
Your point about "new decision making" is recognized but ultimatly arbitrary. I could just as easily call any decisions that I couldnt otherwise make at that time point "new". And remember that the purpose of macro isnt to create "new" decisions so much as it is to promote macro. Creating "new" decisions can be part of that but not at the expense of the original goal.
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On February 14 2010 04:21 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 04:19 Tsagacity wrote:
You don't seem to understand the difference between the number of decisions and and actual increase in CHOICE.
Here's the key word for my argument: REDUNDANT. These aren't any kind of complex decision, they're set actions that don't increase your choices. You're just fooled by the illusion of choice.
In any given protoss game, your excess minerals can be used for a number of different things, but set rules simplify this process that it could often be determined with a flow chart.
If you're about to be supply blocked, you use it on a pylon. If not then you use it on a non-producing structure (make probe/zealot). If all your structures are producing you build another gateway.
There's no unique decision added here. You may have the illusion of choice, but the only choice is "Do you want to suck, or not to suck?" I mean, if you want to use all your money on massing pylons, I guess now you can choose to make 11 pylons in a minute instead of 10.
Compared this to time warp in contrast, which allows you to add a (hopefully significant) boost to any number of individual strategies. You actually do have a choice here in whether or not you want blink timing, +1 timing, early storm, or an early colossus. Careful. I could just as easily reduce Time Warp to Build Order material. Absolutely, give SC2 a bit of time for the metagame to evolve and all the time warp choices will be reduced to a set build order. The difference is that time warp leads to multiple different build orders across different tech trees.
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On February 14 2010 04:23 Tsagacity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 04:21 Archerofaiur wrote:On February 14 2010 04:19 Tsagacity wrote:
You don't seem to understand the difference between the number of decisions and and actual increase in CHOICE.
Here's the key word for my argument: REDUNDANT. These aren't any kind of complex decision, they're set actions that don't increase your choices. You're just fooled by the illusion of choice.
In any given protoss game, your excess minerals can be used for a number of different things, but set rules simplify this process that it could often be determined with a flow chart.
If you're about to be supply blocked, you use it on a pylon. If not then you use it on a non-producing structure (make probe/zealot). If all your structures are producing you build another gateway.
There's no unique decision added here. You may have the illusion of choice, but the only choice is "Do you want to suck, or not to suck?" I mean, if you want to use all your money on massing pylons, I guess now you can choose to make 11 pylons in a minute instead of 10.
Compared this to time warp in contrast, which allows you to add a (hopefully significant) boost to any number of individual strategies. You actually do have a choice here in whether or not you want blink timing, +1 timing, early storm, or an early colossus. Careful. I could just as easily reduce Time Warp to Build Order material. Absolutely, give SC2 a bit of time for the metagame to evolve and all the time warp choices will be reduced to a set build order. The difference is that time warp leads to multiple different build orders across different tech trees.
Once again the purpose of macro mechanics isnt to increase build orders. It can be part of it but not at the expense of the goal.
By the way youve shifted your arguement again. Your now argueing about Time Warp being superior not because of increased decision making but because it opens up build orders. This is ironic since a couple posts ago you were decrying PC for being BO material.
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I'm not shifting my argument, I'm clarifying points because you're fooled by the illusion of choice. You don't seem to understand that at high levels of play the choices you make are on the general strategy level.
Also, please clarify what you think the purpose of the macro mechanics are then, because it's pretentious to assume you know what their specific purpose is.
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On February 14 2010 04:30 Tsagacity wrote:
I'm not shifting my argument, I'm clarifying points because you're fooled by the illusion of choice. You don't seem to understand that at high levels of play the choices you make are on the general strategy level.
Also, please clarify what you think the purpose of the macro mechanics are then, because it's pretentious to assume you know what their specific purpose is.
I would point you to the Teamliquid interview with Dustin which is our clearest example of Blizzards intents for the macro mechanics. I get the sense that your now trying to shift the arguement to one of interpretation of Dustins statements.
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AOA, just wondering how exactly do you think more money=more choices? take current broodwar for example. if you give a late-game toss player more money, is there ANYTHING he can do other than build more gateways and pump more min-heavy units? (this uses the assumption that PC gave you more mins compared to gas, since you are boosting 20 ish min probes and 3 gas ones) considering where the obelisk was on the tech tree, it can't really help in tech or upgrade decisions since most of those are done. The way I'm seeing it is you either spend your money on units, or you do not, not much of a choice to me. the only real decision would be do i want 3 more zlots, or 3 more dragoons. do you think thats a better choice than do i want a faster upgrades/high-tech units/workers?
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On February 14 2010 04:31 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 04:30 Tsagacity wrote:
I'm not shifting my argument, I'm clarifying points because you're fooled by the illusion of choice. You don't seem to understand that at high levels of play the choices you make are on the general strategy level.
Also, please clarify what you think the purpose of the macro mechanics are then, because it's pretentious to assume you know what their specific purpose is. I would point you to the Teamliquid interview with Dustin which is our clearest example of Blizzards intents for the macro mechanics. You WOULD point me? What? Why don't you?
Your now argueing about Time Warp being superior not because of increased decision making but because it opens up build orders. Just pulling this out because it perfectly illustrates the flaw behind your thoughts. Your build orders ARE your decisions (outside of tactical decisions of what to attack etc) more build order variety = more decision!
However, I am willing to concede that on a casual level the extra minerals represent a constant decision making factor for unfamiliar players.
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On February 14 2010 04:35 Chen wrote:
AOA, just wondering how exactly do you think more money=more choices? take current broodwar for example. if you give a late-game toss player more money, is there ANYTHING he can do other than build more gateways and pump more min-heavy units? (this uses the assumption that PC gave you more mins compared to gas, since you are boosting 20 ish min probes and 3 gas ones) considering where the obelisk was on the tech tree, it can't really help in tech or upgrade decisions since most of those are done. The way I'm seeing it is you either spend your money on units, or you do not, not much of a choice to me. the only real decision would be do i want 3 more zlots, or 3 more dragoons. do you think thats a better choice than do i want a faster upgrades/high-tech units/workers?
Before dealing with "what is choice" metaphysical questions pretaining to late game situations lets answer the fundamental questions. Which creates more macro actions and decisions?
One extra decision every 30 seconds?
or
A 20% increase in the mineral intake and about 20% increase in mineral decision making?
On February 14 2010 04:36 Tsagacity wrote:
Just pulling this out because it perfectly illustrates the flaw behind your thoughts. Your build orders ARE your decisions (outside of tactical decisions of what to attack etc) more build order variety = more decision!
lol and now your counting build orders as decision making.
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On February 14 2010 04:37 Archerofaiur wrote:
lol and now your counting build orders as decision making. Who would ever claim that choosing your build order strategy is NOT a decision?
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AOA, I'm also confused about your argument. Can you clarify please?
I think what you are saying is that PC gave the player more money at any given instant. More money means more decisions because more money means a higher number of things you can build at any given time. Is this correct or am I missing it?
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On February 14 2010 04:42 Deviation wrote:
AOA, I'm also confused about your argument. Can you clarify please?
I think what you are saying is that PC gave the player more money at any given instant. More money means more decisions because more money means a higher number of things you can build at any given time. Is this correct or am I missing it?
Yes Im looking at the overall impact of the mechanics on macro gameplay. By what degree do they actually promote macro actions and decision making taking into account long term effects.
On February 14 2010 04:40 Tsagacity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 04:37 Archerofaiur wrote:
lol and now your counting build orders as decision making. Who would ever claim that choosing your build order strategy is NOT a decision?
On February 14 2010 04:19 Tsagacity wrote:
In any given protoss game, your excess minerals can be used for a number of different things, but set rules simplify this process that it could often be determined with a flow chart.
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You're still not understanding where the real decisions are in a build order, so I'll clarify one last time with an example.
In a protoss vs protoss match, I have a number of different choices at the start of a game.
Do I want to go dark templars?
Do I want to go 2 gate robo?
Do I want to go 3 gate goon?
Do I want to fast expand?
^Those are choices
Once I've chosen to go for a specific 3 gate goon timing, when I build my additional gateways is NO LONGER A CHOICE. It's a forced set action I have to execute in order to achieve optimum results.
On February 14 2010 04:19 Tsagacity wrote:
In any given protoss game, your excess minerals can be used for a number of different things, but set rules simplify this process that it could often be determined with a flow chart.
Nowhere in that quote did I mention anything about choosing a build order. The fact that you think this demonstrates where your flaw is in understanding SC:BW build orders. I'm really curious what your play level is in SC:BW?
I know being bad at SC:BW doesn't mean you can't have good arguments, but you definitely don't understand where the choice is made for a build order.
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EPT
