EPTNexus has time warp ability, Obelisk out of game - Page 10
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
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JohannesH
Finland1364 Posts
On February 14 2010 17:42 CharlieMurphy wrote: so what is the logic of this ability? To force players to tech DT super fast in order to stop terrans from using energy on mules and use it on scans? That's kinda dumb imo. No... Logic is to force players do any fucking thing they want. But faster | ||
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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
On February 14 2010 17:42 CharlieMurphy wrote: so what is the logic of this ability? To force players to tech DT super fast in order to stop terrans from using energy on mules and use it on scans? That's kinda dumb imo. Tell me how this ability in any way makes teching to DT faster. It doesn't. This ability does not allow you to create tech buildings more quickly, only to research/upgrade or produce. And don't give me +1 attack because we don't know the current health and damage stats for these units and you can not assume that DT require +1 to be effective. | ||
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
Using it for probes would be macro and using it for units/upgrades would be micro. Dark pylon was way more boring, if you go macro style you build it early otherwise you build it a bit later. Also even if it is included in your "bo" it offers a lot more flexibility, build orders aren't static, you need to adapt to what your enemy does. Choosing another TW target is adaption and that is not possible with the PC. | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 15 2010 07:43 CharlieMurphy wrote: so how the fuck is this an alternative to a macro mechanic then> It is a macro mechanic, as you can use it on your Nexus to boost probe production. It just happens to have alternative uses with regard to production of other units and tech. | ||
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kidcrash
United States620 Posts
Okay, now apply this ability to a regular SC:BW scenario. Let's say you go for a 2 gate build into DT rush. Just for the sake of argument we'll make it that the TW nexus "add-on" (upgrade whatever you want to call it) only requires a gateway before you can upgrade the ability or build the add on (build time will be comparable to comsat once again).. You use the TW on probes until around the time you begin your Templar Archives and then at that point you begin to save your energy. As soon as archives is done, bam, spend your energy on both gateways, accelerating the 2 dts build speed to 3x as fast. Now just compare these results to acquiring 20% more income and see which nets the quicker dt rush. I 100% guarantee that the TW scenario would get you faster dts than 20% income would. The only thing you'd probably have is an extra pylon and an extra couple zealots/cannons. This proves TW adds a vastly greater number of options. The key point I'm trying to make here is if this ability is energy based, being able to save energy for mid/late game tech of some sort is a pretty big deal. It's the same concept as cutting workers, taking workers off of gas to get something faster but much more efficient/cost effective. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On February 14 2010 21:08 Klockan3 wrote: Using it for probes would be macro and using it for units/upgrades would be micro. Dark pylon was way more boring, if you go macro style you build it early otherwise you build it a bit later. Er, building units and upgrading is still macro by the common definition. Micro is commanding your units in the field, macro is building and commanding your buildings, which includes unit production and tech research. | ||
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wrags
United States379 Posts
On February 15 2010 09:38 kidcrash wrote: So let's just assume for a moment that TW will work in a similar fashion to that of a comsat. You cut worker production for a moment to build the add on/research the TW ability. Again let's also assume that in a similar fashion to comsat, it will take energy to use the ability. We'll give it a random energy cost of 25 to use and a energy start off point of 25 as well. Okay, now apply this ability to a regular SC:BW scenario. Let's say you go for a 2 gate build into DT rush. Just for the sake of argument we'll make it that the TW nexus "add-on" (upgrade whatever you want to call it) only requires a gateway before you can upgrade the ability or build the add on (build time will be comparable to comsat once again).. You use the TW on probes until around the time you begin your Templar Archives and then at that point you begin to save your energy. As soon as archives is done, bam, spend your energy on both gateways, accelerating the 2 dts build speed to 3x as fast. Now just compare these results to acquiring 20% more income and see which nets the quicker dt rush. I 100% guarantee that the TW scenario would get you faster dts than 20% income would. The only thing you'd probably have is an extra pylon and an extra couple zealots/cannons. This proves TW adds a vastly greater number of options. The key point I'm trying to make here is if this ability is energy based, being able to save energy for mid/late game tech of some sort is a pretty big deal. It's the same concept as cutting workers, taking workers off of gas to get something faster but much more efficient/cost effective. since you're using arbitrary values one could also say that you could find a way to rush to dts fastest by cutting probes at a certain point. 20% more income would allow you to do the probe-cut build minus the probe cutting. essentially the same thing | ||
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kidcrash
United States620 Posts
Not to mention the fact that spending TW on producing probes faster until dt time makes this even quicker. This will help narrow the gap between the economic advantage of a 20% income gain, in the race to see which ability gets you to X tech faster. Also, how many times have you had to make a quick tech switch because you scouted something that changed your plans. Let's face it, you can not scout everything your opponent does 100% of the time no matter how pro you are. This puts a huge cushion on that problem. Anytime I get put in that emergency situation where I need unit x asap or my opponent's unit y will kill me, money is not the issue, time is. Can we all agree that with any race we get put in that situation from time to time? Once again the dt example is only the tip of the iceberg but I believe it makes a good example in that we can compare this to something we already understand (SC:BW). | ||
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wrags
United States379 Posts
On February 15 2010 12:56 kidcrash wrote: Not to mention the fact that spending TW on producing probes faster until dt time makes this even quicker. This will help narrow the gap between the economic advantage of a 20% income gain, in the race to see which ability gets you to X tech faster. Also, how many times have you had to make a quick tech switch because you scouted something that changed your plans. Let's face it, you can not scout everything your opponent does 100% of the time no matter how pro you are. This puts a huge cushion on that problem. Anytime I get put in that emergency situation where I need unit x asap or my opponent's unit y will kill me, money is not the issue, time is. Can we all agree that with any race we get put in that situation from time to time? and that's exactly why a player should be punished for not scouting. are you really saying when that "oh shit" moment from lack of scouting happens you should be able to pull through just from a racial ability? edit- clarify - the entire point of "macro mechanics" is to prevent optimal play(as opposed to optimized). when you have something like that it seems way too close to the borderline of how to make a best way to play | ||
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kidcrash
United States620 Posts
Yes, you should be able to pull through it from your racial ability. Your terran opponent is getting more minerals and your zerg opponents are getting more units produced. I think this fairly balances those aspects out in perspective. Basically it is making the race of protoss as a whole more adaptable. So what if it doesn't fit into the exact definition of a macro mechanic. As long as it is balanced between the 3 races and its not mindless then who cares what definition it fits under. That is the "entire point" in my opinion. | ||
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JohannesH
Finland1364 Posts
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Falling
Canada11266 Posts
Honestly, the 'PC promotes a greater macro-play style' argument feels like it's an argument to justify it's own existence. Macro doesn't disappear without PC as it is integral to playing the game. Building more bases, workers, production facilities, units, etc will still be rewarded. TW will continue that theme presumably of being able to build workers faster. In addition, because SCII units are fragile (high attack, low health), macro will continue to be rewarded (vs our dear friend WCIII). So if macro (which I see as 'building more crap faster' ) is intrinsic to the game and my choice is 1) build more crap faster through repetition (PC) or 2) choice to tech faster or build more crap faster (TW) Then I will happily choose #2 and say screw macro-style gameplay- it'll happen anyways. Blizzard is providing strategic gameplay options and I say bring on the beta! | ||
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