EPTThey use different terms but they are both right.
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Slithice
Canada78 Posts
They use different terms but they are both right. | ||
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ShadowDrgn
United States2497 Posts
On January 11 2011 18:01 tarath wrote: Day9 often refers to attacking and expanding at the same time as a basic good RTS fundamental. However, to me this seems very backwards. In a recent GSL Artosis also outlined his reasoning for why when your are expanding is the absolute worst time to attack, basically completely contradicting Day9. It isn't a contradiction: you're supposed to expand during your attack. If you train more units while moving out to attack, those units won't be able to catch up to your army to participate. The idea is to spend all your resources to get the biggest army possible, move out to attack with it, and then use your next resources to expand while training more units to protect the expand if your attack goes awry. | ||
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tarath
United States377 Posts
On January 11 2011 18:36 ShadowDrgn wrote: It isn't a contradiction: you're supposed to expand during your attack. If you train more units while moving out to attack, those units won't be able to catch up to your army to participate. The idea is to spend all your resources to get the biggest army possible, move out to attack with it, and then use your next resources to expand while training more units to protect the expand if your attack goes awry. That makes total sense, I guess maybe the disconnect that was confusing me is that as a protoss player with a proxy pylon my additional gateway units CAN participate in attacks and often can change the outcome of attacks which really changes this dynamic. | ||
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stenole
Norway870 Posts
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BioHazard
Netherlands6 Posts
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BioHazard
Netherlands6 Posts
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Wodger
Scotland380 Posts
1/06 Day[9] Daily #0235 Starcraft 2 Zerg vs Zerg Opening Builds (Blip.tv) 1/05 Day[9] Daily #0234 Starcraft 2 Strelok vs Stephano TvZ (Blip.tv) 1/04 Day[9] Daily #0233 Starcraft 2 TheLittleOne vs White-RA TvP (Blip.tv) 1/03 Day[9] Daily #0232 Starcraft 2 Ret vs oGsMC ZvP Analysis (Blip.tv) 1/02 Day[9] Daily #0231 Starcraft 2 Ret vs oGsMC ZvP (Blip.tv) | ||
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Zodish
Denmark3 Posts
I find the lack of funday, disturbing. | ||
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SnuggleZhenya
596 Posts
On January 11 2011 18:01 tarath wrote: Am I thinking about this incorrectly? It seems like you are assuming "attack" means "attempt to end the game." You can attack without any intention of winning the game, or even doing critical damage. You can attack simply with the intention of forcing your opponent to do something specific, which gives you the upper hand because you've already got your response to it coming up. Sure sometimes you can "go fucking kill him," but attacking and expanding doesn't have to be a "go fucking kill him moment" its a "focus his attention at the front of his base" moment, a "force him to build units/defensive structures/whatever" moment. In fact, we've probably all lost a game where we expanded and overcommitted to an attack at the same time, leaving us with few units and a vulnerable expansion that gets counter attacked. That doesn't mean you should not have attacked, it simply means you should have attacked with the intention of pulling back and securing your advantage. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
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Problem2o3
United States32 Posts
On January 11 2011 18:01 tarath wrote: Day9 often refers to attacking and expanding at the same time as a basic good RTS fundamental. However, to me this seems very backwards. In a recent GSL Artosis also outlined his reasoning for why when your are expanding is the absolute worst time to attack, basically completely contradicting Day9. Now far be it from me to claim to know better than the all mighty Thought-Hammer, but to me it seems like expanding while attacking is bad because: A) Right when you expand you have invested the 400 in a Nexus but have gotten no return on that investment which means you will be about 8 food behind your opponent if he is building units. The longer the game goes the less an 8 food differential matters, and furthermore as time goes on you will start to reap dividends from your investment. Right when you throw down the Nexus is exactly when your army disadvantage should be greatest. The reason is the bulk of his army will be engaging yours while you attack. If your army is 8 food behind, and you'll lose the engagement, then pull back. You should have been macroing at home after the expo went down so there should be a few extra units there. If he tries to push forward after that, you'll be able to reinforce as the attack comes, and unless you are WAY behind the opponent, be able to hold it off coupled with the defenders advantage. And that's IF he decides to push back, meanwhile, your expo has been building the whole time and should be close to, if not complete and you can start receiving a return on it. If you do enough damage to his supply, army, or production, and then pull back, chances are he's not gonna follow. The point is, it buys you time, and is usually a better time than just an arbitrary food count or if hes attacking you. Also, the weakest time is right when your expo finishes and you have no chance to cancel it and get your money back, so it'd be beneficial to have his army engaged at that time. B) If you are expanding you are making an investment in the late game which means if the game goes longer you should have an advantage over your opponent. Why would you do anything that might shorten the game while simultaneously investing in something that will only pay off if the game is not short. If you kill him with the attack, the game ends and you win, who cares about the late game in that case. If he is putting down his expo at the same time, you might force a cancel, further increasing a late game advantage if you have an expo going down. Now your opponent is scrambling to catch up, and may make hasty or just stupid decisions in the process. Once again, its not a FULLY COMMITTED ATTACK, its just to engage the army, do some damage where you can, and pull back. C) Attacking doesn't really protect your expansion. If you have a big enough army that your attack would succeed then you have a big enough army that with the defenders advantage you should have no problem protecting your expo. If anything moving your army out puts your expo at risk to counter attacks. I fully understand why pressuring, or moving your army up and back might be smart while expanding to keep your opponent on the defensive, but actually committing to an attack in any way doesn't make sense to me. Of course the expo will be vulnerable to counters when you go to attack, but that's true regardless if you have a fully saturated expo or an expo building. Again, it doesn't have to be a fully committed attack, but you want to make your army's presence known, and keep your opponent on his back foot so you can safely expand. If your facing a turtling terran, you don't have to run into his siege line, but keep your army outside his base so he cant just run out w/o taking losses (I mean keep an eye out for drops with with pylons, obs, OL's something). Either way, your aggression will allow you to safely expand back home. Am I thinking about this incorrectly? This actually seems like such an important fundamental idea that misapplying it could likely lose you a lot of games. I've been doing better since I've stopped expanding while attacking and started focusing on defense if I plan to expand in the near future, and focusing all my resources on my army if I plan to attack in the near future. In one of Incontrol's coaching sessions, he talks about how people always prepare for the worst case scenario, making sure every mineral is covered with defenses to stop any possible counter, and making sure that their army has the perfect combination before moving out. Playing this passively will allow a good opponent to macro laps around you. If something is working for you, then don't stop, but there are plenty of good reasons to attack as you expand. I mean, if you just a move your army into his base and they just go in a line one by one into siege tank fire from high ground, of course he's gonna just push you right back and kill you. But if you execute a somewhat successful attack, or even just an even skirmish, unless you are SUBSTANTIALLY behind, chances are you'll be fine. . | ||
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Scoop
Finland482 Posts
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Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
On January 12 2011 01:04 Scoop wrote: Day9 was in Vegas but no hookers? Son, I am dis.. oh yeah I got warned last time I used a meme, better not finish that sentence. A Hooker that played Nexus Word Wars would be pretty expensive. Maybe that's what the donations video was all about. | ||
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Losanda
18 Posts
Please?  | ||
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Paver
Australia105 Posts
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lofung
Hong Kong298 Posts
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PiousMartyr
Canada176 Posts
On January 11 2011 15:14 jeremytodd1 wrote: I heard it on Day 9's stream. Whats this song called? | ||
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The_A_Drain
United Kingdom36 Posts
Mere hours after beginning to play StarCraft 2, while waiting for the client to download after deciding that I was about to become totally addicted to the game based on the Demo, I discovered the Day[9] Daily. What an amazing videocast  I cannot get enough of it, and the Newbie Tuesday videos are sure to be worth their weight in gold minerals to me | ||
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Johnny Business
Sweden1251 Posts
On January 12 2011 00:23 Antisocialmunky wrote: I am annoyed that we can't analyze GSL Vods. Those were some nice games with Idra and Jinro. Why can't we? I remember that Day9 used to analyze Korean Brood war games from VODs with muted sound. | ||
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Incineratrix
Canada3 Posts
(wasnt able to catch game and it isn't up on blip) thanks! | ||
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