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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On February 22 2013 16:42 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Wow, the Terran whiners in this thread are completely out of control...Let's get a count of what changed early game with Zerg and Terran from WoL to HotS:
Terran:
- Widow Mines
- No Siege upgrade
- Medivac Boost
- Reaper auto-heal
- Hellbats
Zerg:
- Tier 1 Overlord Speed
- Tier 1 Burrow
Yeah, clearly Blizzard is trying to destroy early game Terran.
But limiting zerg's econ is more important than ever. Because zerg can make a few ultras and run you over.
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Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg.
can someone tell me which are these plenty strategies that have a real effect in early game?
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On February 22 2013 18:01 Rider517 wrote:
Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg.
can someone tell me which are these plenty strategies that have a real effect in early game?
2 rax+bunker hehe
double starport banshee
mass BFH
bio drop
hellions drop
marine+siege tank push
Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer?
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On February 22 2013 19:20 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 18:01 Rider517 wrote:
Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg.
can someone tell me which are these plenty strategies that have a real effect in early game? 2 rax+bunker hehe double starport banshee mass BFH bio drop hellions drop marine+siege tank push Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer?
Ask BitByBit.. Hes gonna come up with smtn.. :D
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On February 22 2013 19:20 Dvriel wrote:
Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer?
Traditional bashee, hellion harassment
hellbat drop (probably not as effective now given that medivac carries two hellbats)
reapers
Combination of proxy rax/factories with widow mine, hellbats, and/or reapers
standard tank/marine push
tank/hellbats push
...maybe i should switch to playing terran instead 
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On February 22 2013 19:21 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 19:20 Dvriel wrote:On February 22 2013 18:01 Rider517 wrote:
Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg.
can someone tell me which are these plenty strategies that have a real effect in early game? 2 rax+bunker hehe double starport banshee mass BFH bio drop hellions drop marine+siege tank push Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer? Ask BitByBit.. Hes gonna come up with smtn.. :D
spines, queens
spores, queens
wall off, queens
free spores
mono speed lings
maybe you are one of those that made the devs think that zerg need more early game scouting options if you die to those
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On February 22 2013 19:32 Rider517 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 19:21 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:20 Dvriel wrote:On February 22 2013 18:01 Rider517 wrote:
Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg.
can someone tell me which are these plenty strategies that have a real effect in early game? 2 rax+bunker hehe double starport banshee mass BFH bio drop hellions drop marine+siege tank push Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer? Ask BitByBit.. Hes gonna come up with smtn.. :D spines, queens spores, queens wall off, queens free spores mono speed lings maybe you are one of those that made the devs think that zerg need more early game scouting options if you die to those
um..this is a stupid comment.
That's like saying to defend oracle opening, you need missile turrets and marines.
except the game isn't so simple.
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United Kingdom12025 Posts
On February 22 2013 19:21 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 19:20 Dvriel wrote:On February 22 2013 18:01 Rider517 wrote:
Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg.
can someone tell me which are these plenty strategies that have a real effect in early game? 2 rax+bunker hehe double starport banshee mass BFH bio drop hellions drop marine+siege tank push Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer? Ask BitByBit.. Hes gonna come up with smtn.. :D
Does BitByBit even still reside on a SC2 team anymore? I've not heard his name in so long 
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On February 22 2013 19:39 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 19:32 Rider517 wrote:On February 22 2013 19:21 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:20 Dvriel wrote:On February 22 2013 18:01 Rider517 wrote:
Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg.
can someone tell me which are these plenty strategies that have a real effect in early game? 2 rax+bunker hehe double starport banshee mass BFH bio drop hellions drop marine+siege tank push Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer? Ask BitByBit.. Hes gonna come up with smtn.. :D spines, queens spores, queens wall off, queens free spores mono speed lings maybe you are one of those that made the devs think that zerg need more early game scouting options if you die to those um..this is a stupid comment. That's like saying to defend oracle opening, you need missile turrets and marines. except the game isn't so simple.
What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all..
edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are..
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indeed
i am still waiting to see an early strategy that payback the investment unless the zerg is braindead of course, but against a normal player zerg already have all the tools to defend any harass making the investment more a damge for you
when zerg have problems with something it got nerfed and/or receive a gift
when t/p have problems with something let's wait and see if the player find a way to deal with it
nothing has changed
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On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 19:39 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:32 Rider517 wrote:On February 22 2013 19:21 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:20 Dvriel wrote:On February 22 2013 18:01 Rider517 wrote:
Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg.
can someone tell me which are these plenty strategies that have a real effect in early game? 2 rax+bunker hehe double starport banshee mass BFH bio drop hellions drop marine+siege tank push Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer? Ask BitByBit.. Hes gonna come up with smtn.. :D spines, queens spores, queens wall off, queens free spores mono speed lings maybe you are one of those that made the devs think that zerg need more early game scouting options if you die to those um..this is a stupid comment. That's like saying to defend oracle opening, you need missile turrets and marines. except the game isn't so simple. What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all.. edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are..
Well said. Zerg players are NOT abusing the mobility and versatility of their race. As it stands, they are abusing Blizzard's balanced win ratio doctrine.
Current situation:
1. Go 3 base expand every pro-game,
2. Lose when they can't defend with small number of roaches/hydra/lings/etc, two queens and mass drones,
3. Whine about unit efficiency, lost mining time, because mid-game, APM requirements, etc etc consequently...
4. Blizzard nerfs the offending composition.
5. Complain that SC2 for Zerg is boring.
Edit: As it stands, why aren't Zerg abusing their scouting options and doing early game crawler/queen pushes, the same way Terrans do 3 marine/2 SCV bunker rushes? Queens can keep the crawlers alive with just transfuse, forcing the T to build marauders, instead of more production or tech (economic "damage") and expand behind it.
OH right, they don't need to do that since the only available openings for Terran can be dealt with a single cycle of roaches and a single queen.
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On February 22 2013 17:26 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 17:22 MilesTeg wrote:
That's a good change. Now if they reverted that horribly stupid tank buff from patch 11 you might actually see aggression from Zerg in ZvT. Why would they do that when they feel still comfortable with their mid and late game armies?
Because it's good RTS gameplay to be able to pressure or macro. And because if there's no way to punish greedy players the game will inevitably turn into late WoL ZVT turtle fest.
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On February 22 2013 19:20 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 18:01 Rider517 wrote:
Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg.
can someone tell me which are these plenty strategies that have a real effect in early game? 2 rax+bunker hehe double starport banshee mass BFH bio drop hellions drop marine+siege tank push Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer?
2 rax is map-dependent, and incredibly risky
double starport hasn't worked since...2011?
2 fact BFH is a coinflip, where you pray your opponent doesn't see your factories, and doesn't have his queens ready to block
"bio drop" sounds like you've never played terran. You don't get drops off of any viable build early enough to threaten the zerg.
hellion drops off of triple-orbital is risky, and requires that the zerg does not roachbane you, otherwise the lack of a banshee results in death
marine+siege tanks hasn't worked since 2011, pure ling destroys that, and an unprepared zerg can delay with a single spine + spare queens long enough to get those lings
banshee / hellion off of triple orbital has been proven to be viable enough to keep the terran in the game, but is still not capable of keeping good zergs from getting ungodly creep spread and super-fast 3rd saturation
reapers work when proxied at stupidly low food counts, but they can't do enough damage as part of a standard build to justify the cost + delaying your 2nd orbital, and become useless once speed finishes for lings
The pre-queen patch hellion contain was what kept the matchup balanced: the zerg had to spend resources to take a third and spread creep, which let the terran keep up economically. When that was patched out on a whim, TvZ died.
At least in HotS, our lategame units have become much better, in theory. The matchup has gone from pre-hive timing-or-die, to keeping up with the zerg and weathering enough ultralisk waves to build up a deathfleet. PvZ is actually like this, too, only a little bit easier. It's still stupid.
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I think it is time for Snipe damage being changed to 30 (+20) so we can snipe banelings and have fun!
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I think it's a very reasonable change. Hellion -> Firebat transition was so natural and there was no reason not to do it in TvZ.
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On February 22 2013 20:47 Ooshmagoosh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 19:20 Dvriel wrote:On February 22 2013 18:01 Rider517 wrote:
Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg.
can someone tell me which are these plenty strategies that have a real effect in early game? 2 rax+bunker hehe double starport banshee mass BFH bio drop hellions drop marine+siege tank push Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer? 2 rax is map-dependent, and incredibly risky double starport hasn't worked since...2011? 2 fact BFH is a coinflip, where you pray your opponent doesn't see your factories, and doesn't have his queens ready to block "bio drop" sounds like you've never played terran. You don't get drops off of any viable build early enough to threaten the zerg. hellion drops off of triple-orbital is risky, and requires that the zerg does not roachbane you, otherwise the lack of a banshee results in death marine+siege tanks hasn't worked since 2011, pure ling destroys that, and an unprepared zerg can delay with a single spine + spare queens long enough to get those lings banshee / hellion off of triple orbital has been proven to be viable enough to keep the terran in the game, but is still not capable of keeping good zergs from getting ungodly creep spread and super-fast 3rd saturation reapers work when proxied at stupidly low food counts, but they can't do enough damage as part of a standard build to justify the cost + delaying your 2nd orbital, and become useless once speed finishes for lings The pre-queen patch hellion contain was what kept the matchup balanced: the zerg had to spend resources to take a third and spread creep, which let the terran keep up economically. When that was patched out on a whim, TvZ died. At least in HotS, our lategame units have become much better, in theory. The matchup has gone from pre-hive timing-or-die, to keeping up with the zerg and weathering enough ultralisk waves to build up a deathfleet. PvZ is actually like this, too, only a little bit easier. It's still stupid.
LOL!! I am Terran man!! I suppose I forgot to add the "Ironic Mode".Just said some old allins working before all this patches.It was just a joke! Nowadays I cant find way to damage the Z early and feel so frustrated as you..
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On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 19:39 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:32 Rider517 wrote:On February 22 2013 19:21 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:20 Dvriel wrote:On February 22 2013 18:01 Rider517 wrote:
Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg.
can someone tell me which are these plenty strategies that have a real effect in early game? 2 rax+bunker hehe double starport banshee mass BFH bio drop hellions drop marine+siege tank push Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer? Ask BitByBit.. Hes gonna come up with smtn.. :D spines, queens spores, queens wall off, queens free spores mono speed lings maybe you are one of those that made the devs think that zerg need more early game scouting options if you die to those um..this is a stupid comment. That's like saying to defend oracle opening, you need missile turrets and marines. except the game isn't so simple. What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all.. edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are..
you don't get it, do you?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311
Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly.
Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot.
People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple.
Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL.
that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games.
So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball?
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I recognize a pattern! Zerg whines about terran. Terran gets nerfed. Zerg learn how to use inf/brood. Zerg dominates everything till the next expansion arrives.
This beta. Zerg whines about everything that stops them from greedy drones only gameplay. Nobody really figures out what vipers etc. can achieve. Fast-Forward like 1 year and zerg will pull some new inf/brood-esque comp (i guess ultra/viper-cloud-something-something) out of their a** to dominate till the Protoss-Expansion arrives.
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On February 22 2013 21:11 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:39 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:32 Rider517 wrote:On February 22 2013 19:21 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:20 Dvriel wrote:On February 22 2013 18:01 Rider517 wrote:
Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg.
can someone tell me which are these plenty strategies that have a real effect in early game? 2 rax+bunker hehe double starport banshee mass BFH bio drop hellions drop marine+siege tank push Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer? Ask BitByBit.. Hes gonna come up with smtn.. :D spines, queens spores, queens wall off, queens free spores mono speed lings maybe you are one of those that made the devs think that zerg need more early game scouting options if you die to those um..this is a stupid comment. That's like saying to defend oracle opening, you need missile turrets and marines. except the game isn't so simple. What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all.. edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are.. you don't get it, do you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly. Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot. People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple. Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL. that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games. So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball?
You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all.
Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta.
People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on.
Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused...
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EPT
